kalla vs jalis? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

kalla vs jalis?

LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

Have anyone done the numbers to see how they compare? mainly thinking of kalla spirits vs hammers for condi rev. The spirits needs a lot more work to be effective, and you may get unlucky and having to deal with no path issues. Im myself on the fence about the spirits, i concede they have uses. But possibly no path issues, having to click a lot more to put them down is irritating. Plus having to watch for them expiering so they can be reapplied. I know you can speed up casting them with a setting in options, but they may end up in funny places due to the -very hard- to see cursor having run off, or gotting lost in the spam on screen in larger groups.

I could also be interested in knowing how devastation fares vs renegade. Though for renegade, it would be mainly versus kalla's fervor as the renegade line only improves bleeding.

Comments

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2017

    In general usage, Jalis beats Kalla. Half of the renegade summons require teammates to work, particularly the damaging ones. You can use Icerazor and Darkrazor while solo, but their damage output is going to be lower than vengeful hammers. For kalla to beat jalis, you'll need the following conditions to be met:

    (1) You're in a group
    (2) In a fight where you'll stick close together.
    (3) With teammates competent enough to do so
    (4) Against enemies with little to no CC
    (5) And only fighting one enemy (Razorclaw only)

    Without all of those conditions being met, you'll find out exactly how bad each of the summons are. For example, in cm100 Skorvald and Arkk have a knockback component attached to nearly every attack, rendering Soulcleave utterly useless for the fights. Worst part is, this applies to Breakrazor as well, so you lose 42% out of your heal..

    I'm not sure if anyone has run the exact numbers, since the buffs only apply to player teammates and it makes calculating DPS difficult. However, nobody has ever needed to run the exact numbers, because the sheer logistical problems that the summons face means you don't need a calculator. You can just see that Soulcleave is on her butt, doing nothing to contribute.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's just the peak of ineptitude that they saw fit to allow our summons, which already cost energy to maintain, to be targetable at all for CC and damage.

  • Aomine.5012Aomine.5012 Member ✭✭✭

    You should run both.
    Both can utilize Kalla favor spamming and grant 25 stacks of might to party quickly due to multi hit skills.

  • @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Have anyone done the numbers to see how they compare? mainly thinking of kalla spirits vs hammers for condi rev. The spirits needs a lot more work to be effective, and you may get unlucky and having to deal with no path issues. Im myself on the fence about the spirits, i concede they have uses. But possibly no path issues, having to click a lot more to put them down is irritating. Plus having to watch for them expiering so they can be reapplied. I know you can speed up casting them with a setting in options, but they may end up in funny places due to the -very hard- to see cursor having run off, or gotting lost in the spam on screen in larger groups.

    I could also be interested in knowing how devastation fares vs renegade. Though for renegade, it would be mainly versus kalla's fervor as the renegade line only improves bleeding.

    Jalis is better by far. Kalla costs too much energy and messes up your rotations.

  • Jalis > kalla.
    Mainly because jalis skills can be trusted way more than kalla's silly goons who dies/cc/out of range and do nothing.

  • Set.7461Set.7461 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 29, 2017

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    I know you can speed up casting them with a setting in options, but they may end up in funny places due to the -very hard- to see cursor having run off, or gotting lost in the spam on screen in larger groups.

    I know I mentioned "Instant" which is what I've been using before PoF but I've settled on using "Fast" target indicator. You basically hold the button/hotkey such as Sevenshot or summons, then release it to place it down. It's just a hair slower than instant but you get better accuracy on positioning theses skills. Plus, it can help prevent whiffing the hard to land shots/summon. You can also cancel it with escape if say, you are trying to place a summon and your target ports away. It is still 1 button press to use, it's just on-release instead of on-press.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hrm, seems ive used it wrongly then. Wasnt aware you could just hold the button down.

  • Kidel.2057Kidel.2057 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    In general usage, Jalis beats Kalla. Half of the renegade summons require teammates to work, particularly the damaging ones. You can use Icerazor and Darkrazor while solo, but their damage output is going to be lower than vengeful hammers. For kalla to beat jalis, you'll need the following conditions to be met:

    (1) You're in a group
    (2) In a fight where you'll stick close together.
    (3) With teammates competent enough to do so
    (4) Against enemies with little to no CC
    (5) And only fighting one enemy (Razorclaw only)

    Without all of those conditions being met, you'll find out exactly how bad each of the summons are. For example, in cm100 Skorvald and Arkk have a knockback component attached to nearly every attack, rendering Soulcleave utterly useless for the fights. Worst part is, this applies to Breakrazor as well, so you lose 42% out of your heal..

    I'm not sure if anyone has run the exact numbers, since the buffs only apply to player teammates and it makes calculating DPS difficult. However, nobody has ever needed to run the exact numbers, because the sheer logistical problems that the summons face means you don't need a calculator. You can just see that Soulcleave is on her butt, doing nothing to contribute.

    Renegade is so objectively bad that I get the feeling that whoever made it has never played gw2 for more than the amount of hours required by contract

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Quite disheartening, yes. But it indeed seems that kallas fervor is the only reason for why we would take renegade at all.

  • Bezerker.2379Bezerker.2379 Member ✭✭✭

    The summons are an interesting idea, but need much work. I've been trying to make condi renegade work in wvw. So far, I've realized that the daze/stunbreak summon is amazing when it works. I watched a weaver become perma interrupted as he tried to fight me in it. It was an easy fight.

    The others? I don't really use them much I'll be honest. F2 gets used when kiting and F4 gets used when I need my heal to come back faster, but f3 never.

    soulcleave is decent but doesnt benefit a condi build enough to be worthwhile except as a filler to try to keep you alive until malyx is back up.

    Fervor is great, as viper weaps/armor + tblazer trinks, it works well, but thats about it.
    Shortbow is ok for the knockdown, but meh.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I did a long bounty train last night and had a blast with Kalla. It seemed like I was a lot more useful too. As far as numbers I couldn't tell but it seemed like when I wasn't being chain knocked-down or outside of any of the 10000 annoying legendary bounty mechanics I was putting out pretty good numbers!

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

  • Murdock.6547Murdock.6547 Member ✭✭✭

    It pains me to see how the rev forums are.
    Do any of you realize how much the new orders add?
    Or how much absurd damage some of the summons grant?
    Or how whacky it is to have 20% more condi damage?

    Kalla may not be optimal all the time as a legend, but her traitline is easily a must have for a dps build.
    Actually! Its good for power, for condi, and for healing even! Not great for power, but good.

  • It's really not. The only notable thing is Kalla's Fervor. The weapon has a hard time finding a place anywhere due to the awkward skills, and it isn't conductive to how the renegade is supposed to play. The Stance is full of inconsistent skills that fight to be useful anywhere, suffering from numerous practical problems that make them situational at best. The function skills are too expensive for what they offer, and they don't offer much. Most of the traits are mediocre at best. The specialization is little more than a boost to condi builds. It isn't even that good as a healer, except in select circumstances. What the Revenant needed was a boost to power damage, instead Renegade just contributes to condi dominance.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    It's really not. The only notable thing is Kalla's Fervor. The weapon has a hard time finding a place anywhere due to the awkward skills, and it isn't conductive to how the renegade is supposed to play. The Stance is full of inconsistent skills that fight to be useful anywhere, suffering from numerous practical problems that make them situational at best. The function skills are too expensive for what they offer, and they don't offer much. Most of the traits are mediocre at best. The specialization is little more than a boost to condi builds. It isn't even that good as a healer, except in select circumstances. What the Revenant needed was a boost to power damage, instead Renegade just contributes to condi dominance.

    I disagree. Herald should be the power elite spec. Problem is they nerfed power revenant to hell courtesy of PvP. I still remember my beta weekend when unrelenting assault was doing 18k damage and my autoattacks were hitting 24% harder. I also remember my facet of nature being 50% increased boon duration.

    What they need to do is remove those nerfs from PvE and power herald will be back in force. Buff autoattack damage by 25% in PvE only and restore Unrelenting assault to its beta cooldown and damage values.

    Kalla traitline would be fine as well if the shortbow wasn't total garbage, because then all those powerful bleed traits would be relevant, especially if they removed energy costs off weaponskills so we could swap between mace and shortbow for PvE rotations.

    The summons need to be invulnerable and Soulcleave summit needs cost reduction, while the citadel order skills need to cost no energy. Voila, Kalla fixed.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    You are unclear there. You say not dropping devastation, then saying invocation is the way to go.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    You are unclear there. You say not dropping devastation, then saying invocation is the way to go.

    Corruption, Invocation, Renegade traitlines. What's unclear there?

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    You are unclear there. You say not dropping devastation, then saying invocation is the way to go.

    Corruption, Invocation, Renegade traitlines. What's unclear there?

    You say: You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.
    Then you say: I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Also, I was of the understanding that while invo might outedge deva slightly, the group buff from deva in a team pushes it ahead along theres no other revs with deva.

  • @LucianDK.8615 said:
    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I think he meant to say "want to drop", instead of saying "was not to drop"; which would mean to keep devastation.

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Also, I was of the understanding that while invo might outedge deva slightly, the group buff from deva in a team pushes it ahead along theres no other revs with deva.

    >
    That's my understanding too. One rev, use invocation. Two revs means one should use invocation and the other devastation.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DKShang.8792 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I think he meant to say "want to drop", instead of saying "was not to drop"; which would mean to keep devastation.

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Also, I was of the understanding that while invo might outedge deva slightly, the group buff from deva in a team pushes it ahead along theres no other revs with deva.

    >
    That's my understanding too. One rev, use invocation. Two revs means one should use invocation and the other devastation.

    I think you got it the other way around. If you are sole rev in a group, you want to do devastation for the group buff. If you are two, second uses invocation.
    But invocation is the better thing when totally solo, yes?

  • DKShang.8792DKShang.8792 Member ✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    Yeap, that's my understanding. Also, a clarification on my comment. When I said one rev, I actually meant to say "when you are not in a group" . When you are alone. I'm just happy I can type anything intelligible this early from my phone. lol

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kalla beats Jalis in a group... Solo, I guess technically Jalis beats Kalla? But I've just been running Kalla since in PoF Open World play everything dies before I run out of Mallyx energy anyways. The only time I have to even swap stances is on like Bounties or World Events, and there's enough people at those to take advantage of Kalla.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

    You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I could imagine kalla have some use in openworld pve like bounty runs. But fractals that relies a lot more on cc, the spirits will be easilly impaired due to being so vulnerable.

    And for world events it really doesnt matter what you run. I think jalis wins out still for sheer ease of use of hammers and that you dont have to constantly place spirits here and there and risking failing due to no path available.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Murdock.6547 said:
    It pains me to see how the rev forums are.
    Do any of you realize how much the new orders add?
    Or how much absurd damage some of the summons grant?
    Or how whacky it is to have 20% more condi damage?

    Kalla may not be optimal all the time as a legend, but her traitline is easily a must have for a dps build.
    Actually! Its good for power, for condi, and for healing even! Not great for power, but good.

    It pains me that people do not understand is that every trait line and legend has advantages, not just Kalla. You are completely ignoring that SB and Renegade are seriously lacking in sustainability and mobility making Renegade near useless in PvP. You are not taking in consideration the damage and support advantages of using devastation in a group setting and herald solo.

    Renegade is not misunderstood, it sucks compared to the alternatives, except in a raid where you can deal 5% more damage using mace/axe condi build over the same exact build without renegade.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

    You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

    Most dps is Condi so the AP doesn't really help all that much tbh. And the dps difference from devestation vs invocation is substantial (about 3k, which AP barely makes up for).

    Don't underestimate how good rev dps actually is now, especially with the nerfs to firebrand.

    Also the benchmarks for condi rev (37-38k) are done with kalla/mallyx. I've tried running jalis/ mallyx and kalla/ mallyx and it seems that kalla comes out on top every time due to torment procs from icerazor (rampent vex minor) and the burn damage from citadel bombardment

    Edit: i didn't notice my typo. I meant to say you definitely want* to drop devestation, imo.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 1, 2017

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

    You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

    Most dps is Condi so the AP doesn't really help all that much tbh. And the dps difference from devestation vs invocation is substantial (about 3k, which AP barely makes up for).

    Don't underestimate how good rev dps actually is now, especially with the nerfs to firebrand.

    Also the benchmarks for condi rev (37-38k) are done with kalla/mallyx. I've tried running jalis/ mallyx and kalla/ mallyx and it seems that kalla comes out on top every time due to torment procs from icerazor (rampent vex minor) and the burn damage from citadel bombardment

    Edit: i didn't notice my typo. I meant to say you definitely want* to drop devestation, imo.

    I asume you went with 1-1-1 for invocation and 2-2-2 for kalla? Is darkrazor or razorclaw used at all, or do you just do the rotation and working icerazor and bombard into it since you dont drain energy from not using soucleave? And sigils is still malice and geo?

    Edit: I could like to know just how much mallyx/kalla is ahead of mallyx/jalis. Vengeful hammers is after all also very good at stacking torment with ease. Plus while icerazor might be more bursty about it, he still have a cd and when he fades or gets destroyed, your torment application drops down until you can recast him.. Then theres also the opportunity cost of having to place and watch spirits compared to the ease of turning on vengeful hammers.

    Furthermore, with no direct energy draining, do you end staying in kalla stance for longer periods of time and neglecting use of mallyx and embrace the darkness?

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Might be good if you theorycrafters could start a new thread with all your info collected together.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:
    So I'm assuming you're talking about pve. For raiding, kalla out dps's jalis... although the healing is surely missed. Ice razor is used over razorclaw due to the torment procs since the bleeding is far too short duration (thanks to the 1 second limiter, at 4 second duration (w/100 durations) half the stacks are already gonna by the time the 10th pulse comes around.

    Citadel bombardment is also used right before swapping back to mallyx due to its massive cost but fires increase total burning damage for the build, increasing dps.

    You definitely wasn't to drop devestation for renegade, even if only for the passive 20% condition damage increase groom Kalla's fervor.

    I've been doing a lot of testing at the golem and in raid settings wth jalis vs kalla and devestation vs invocation. Invocation w/ kalla is definitely the way to go.

    Outside of raids, i have no idea. I don't really do fractals anymore.

    Shouldn't that be the other way around? Devastation for Raids/Invocation for Solo/fractals? Most raid groups I know would rather just bring another Firebrand if the Renegade isn't even bothering to run AP.

    You lose 7% condi damage for yourself from dropping Invo, but your sub gains 15% critical damage...

    Most dps is Condi so the AP doesn't really help all that much tbh. And the dps difference from devestation vs invocation is substantial (about 3k, which AP barely makes up for).

    Don't underestimate how good rev dps actually is now, especially with the nerfs to firebrand.

    Also the benchmarks for condi rev (37-38k) are done with kalla/mallyx. I've tried running jalis/ mallyx and kalla/ mallyx and it seems that kalla comes out on top every time due to torment procs from icerazor (rampent vex minor) and the burn damage from citadel bombardment

    Edit: i didn't notice my typo. I meant to say you definitely want* to drop devestation, imo.

    Does Icerazor's attacks use our critical rate? Never really thought about that being an option...
    Razorclaw/Icerazor/Bombardment, 2 searing fissures, and 1 echoing eruption would be a perfect 100 energy for your 10 seconds in Kalla tho. Very efficient.

  • I wouldn't be too psyched for Icerazor. Vengeful hammers strikes 4 times a second, and over 10 seconds this comes to 40 hits. These 40 hits scale with the number of enemies that surround you, so you can hit up to 120 times. At 0.2 base damage this is the equivalent of a base 80 base attack over 10 seconds. The hammers also heal 80 per hit, giving you 3,200 health for that duration. Against multiple enemies the healing multiplies. The hammers also reduce incoming damage from all sources by 20%. If you're in devastation, Focused Siphoning adds 2.6k additional damage on top of what the hammers already do, along with 2280 more health per enemy. This also works with Mutilate Defenses to stack additional vulnerability on enemies.

    Icerazor is a base 3.2 attack which doesn't scale with the number of enemies you face and hits 20 times. About the only advantage is that it inflicts more vulnerability with no strings attached. Vengeful hammers is a really good skill. It is hard to beat, no matter what build you're using.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I wouldn't be too psyched for Icerazor. Vengeful hammers strikes 4 times a second, and over 10 seconds this comes to 40 hits. These 40 hits scale with the number of enemies that surround you, so you can hit up to 120 times. At 0.2 base damage this is the equivalent of a base 80 base attack over 10 seconds. The hammers also heal 80 per hit, giving you 3,200 health for that duration. Against multiple enemies the healing multiplies. The hammers also reduce incoming damage from all sources by 20%. If you're in devastation, Focused Siphoning adds 2.6k additional damage on top of what the hammers already do, along with 2280 more health per enemy. This also works with Mutilate Defenses to stack additional vulnerability on enemies.

    Icerazor is a base 3.2 attack which doesn't scale with the number of enemies you face and hits 20 times. About the only advantage is that it inflicts more vulnerability with no strings attached. Vengeful hammers is a really good skill. It is hard to beat, no matter what build you're using.

    Yes, but then you also generate 50 Bleeds from Razorclaw and 10-30 Burns (large hotbox rng) from Citadel Bombardment on top of the Torments from Icerazor (which would only be about 7 on average).

    Jalis's 40 hits vs large hitbox would be around 13 stacks of torment on average.

    Comparing hammers to one of those skills, sure they seem really good. But you have to compare them to the whole package, since hammers are ALL you get from Jalis, whereas in Kalla you have the energy to use all three skills... I mean, technically you could use Citadel Bombardment in Jalis form, but you'd have to almost immediately stop channeling your hammers. Although Jalis would let you use Searing Fissure 3 times instead of 2 and Echoing Eruption twice instead of once.

    So in the end, we're comparing 13'ish stacks of torment, 4 extra burns, 5 extra torments and some direct damage/siphon hits to 7'ish stacks of torment, 15'ish burns, and 50 bleeds.

    Like a said originally, in solo play, Jalis probably still is better, not even counting all the sustain you talked about... But in raids I don't think it's really that close at all, Kalla wins hands down.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @narcx.3570 said:

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I wouldn't be too psyched for Icerazor. Vengeful hammers strikes 4 times a second, and over 10 seconds this comes to 40 hits. These 40 hits scale with the number of enemies that surround you, so you can hit up to 120 times. At 0.2 base damage this is the equivalent of a base 80 base attack over 10 seconds. The hammers also heal 80 per hit, giving you 3,200 health for that duration. Against multiple enemies the healing multiplies. The hammers also reduce incoming damage from all sources by 20%. If you're in devastation, Focused Siphoning adds 2.6k additional damage on top of what the hammers already do, along with 2280 more health per enemy. This also works with Mutilate Defenses to stack additional vulnerability on enemies.

    Icerazor is a base 3.2 attack which doesn't scale with the number of enemies you face and hits 20 times. About the only advantage is that it inflicts more vulnerability with no strings attached. Vengeful hammers is a really good skill. It is hard to beat, no matter what build you're using.

    Yes, but then you also generate 50 Bleeds from Razorclaw and 10-30 Burns (large hotbox rng) from Citadel Bombardment on top of the Torments from Icerazor (which would only be about 7 on average).

    Jalis's 40 hits vs large hitbox would be around 13 stacks of torment on average.

    Comparing hammers to one of those skills, sure they seem really good. But you have to compare them to the whole package, since hammers are ALL you get from Jalis, whereas in Kalla you have the energy to use all three skills... I mean, technically you could use Citadel Bombardment in Jalis form, but you'd have to almost immediately stop channeling your hammers. Although Jalis would let you use Searing Fissure 3 times instead of 2 and Echoing Eruption twice instead of once.

    So in the end, we're comparing 13'ish stacks of torment, 4 extra burns, 5 extra torments and some direct damage/siphon hits to 7'ish stacks of torment, 15'ish burns, and 50 bleeds.

    Like a said originally, in solo play, Jalis probably still is better, not even counting all the sustain you talked about... But in raids I don't think it's really that close at all, Kalla wins hands down.

    And then you get into Shattered Observatory CM or any boss fight with knockdowns and your summons get pinballed into being obsolete.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    @narcx.3570 said:

    Yes, but then you also generate 50 Bleeds from Razorclaw and 10-30 Burns (large hotbox rng) from Citadel Bombardment on top of the Torments from Icerazor (which would only be about 7 on average).

    Jalis's 40 hits vs large hitbox would be around 13 stacks of torment on average.

    Comparing hammers to one of those skills, sure they seem really good. But you have to compare them to the whole package, since hammers are ALL you get from Jalis, whereas in Kalla you have the energy to use all three skills... I mean, technically you could use Citadel Bombardment in Jalis form, but you'd have to almost immediately stop channeling your hammers. Although Jalis would let you use Searing Fissure 3 times instead of 2 and Echoing Eruption twice instead of once.

    So in the end, we're comparing 13'ish stacks of torment, 4 extra burns, 5 extra torments and some direct damage/siphon hits to 7'ish stacks of torment, 15'ish burns, and 50 bleeds.

    Like a said originally, in solo play, Jalis probably still is better, not even counting all the sustain you talked about... But in raids I don't think it's really that close at all, Kalla wins hands down.

    Soulcleave beats all of that in ideal conditions. However I digress:

    I decided to do some tests. Unrealistic buffs, no food. Turns out I was wrong: hammer does 3 hits per second, not 4. On unrealistic buffs it hits for 571 damage 3 times per second, doing roughly 1,713 direct damage per second. In Devastation, the hammers hit for 628 + 79 damage, and under 50% health it hits for 749 + 79 damage. Averaging these two out, it comes to 757 three times per second, 2,272 DPS. This will also proc rampant vex each second, inflicting a torment stack that hits for 1,715 throughout its duration. 1,835 in Invocation.

    So, for Invocation Vengeful hammers hits for 3,548 DPS, and Devastation hammers hits for 3,987 DPS. No animation time, 10 seconds, the hammers basically do 35k and 39k damage on top of whatever skills you're using. When I say the hammers do a lot of damage, it is really difficult to put that into words. The thing about all of Kalla's utilities is that they go wrong, constantly. They're bad against mobile targets, they're bad against CC spamming targets, they're bad against small targets, they're bad against multiple targets, their cast times are so long that they're bad against targets that force you to dodge a lot, and their bad if your teammates don't gather in one place to receive the buffs. In a clinical scenario it seems like they're all good, but in a practical scenario you would have to spam every utility you have just to compete with what hammers do effortlessly.


    EDIT: Are you guys sure that invocation is better? I just did a couple of no food unrealistic DPS tests for condi renegade, 3 runs for each build. Devastation and Invocation both capped out at 31k DPS.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

    Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

    In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

    For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

    Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

    Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

    Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

    In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

    For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

    Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

    Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

    I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 2, 2017

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

    Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

    In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

    For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

    Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

    Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

    I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

    Honestly, i don't know. I personality get better numbers wth invo over deves in a vacuum, not accounting for mechanics and such. I am also talking strictly personal dps too; I'm not accounting for group dps from AP.

    Feel free to correct me on this butt the 37k dps benchmark was also done with invo over deves too. I also noticed to that with full buffs the crit chance increase to fury is wasted now as I'm hitting 122 ish crit chance (although this drops when you need to dodge).

    Edit: full buffs = realistic standard buffs w/ top end food/utility

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

    Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

    In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

    For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

    Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

    Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

    I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

    Honestly, i don't know. I personality get better numbers wth invo over deves in a vacuum, not accounting for mechanics and such. I am also talking strictly personal dps too; I'm not accounting for group dps from AP.

    Feel free to correct me on this butt the 37k dps benchmark was also done with invo over deves too. I also noticed to that with full buffs the crit chance increase to fury is wasted now as I'm hitting 122 ish crit chance (although this drops when you need to dodge).

    Edit: full buffs = realistic standard buffs w/ top end food/utility

    For comparision, what does baseline condi rev with invo and deva give?

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @LucianDK.8615 said:
    Curious that theres so much disagreement about Invo vs Deva. But yeah, i can agree that while the kalla spirits seems they have a higher teoretical maximum, its rarely achieved due to the multiple opportunity costs as outlined above, vs the ease of use of hammers.

    Its pretty easy to achieve that theoretical in raids. Fractals are a whole different story.

    In all honesty, its starting to look like this while debate is coming entirely down to situation, which i think is a good thing!

    For example, last night i was a cannon dps for sabetha. Since my dps was already going to suffer from having to do cannons i brought AP and kalla to support what dps i could do (area heal, pulsing daze for 2nd miniboss).

    Prior to that i ran invocation/kalla for maximum possible dps for gorseval (no updrafts) due to the dps check (i got top dps ^^). For sloth i will still run hammers due to damage splitting/ fear.

    Its all depends on the situation now imo, and that's good cuz there's no one best thing for everything.

    I meant there seems to be conflicting accounts on wether Invocation or Devastation is the top performing third traitline for a condi rev. You say its Invo, But Blood Red arachnid above says he tested it as deva comming ahead.

    Honestly, i don't know. I personality get better numbers wth invo over deves in a vacuum, not accounting for mechanics and such. I am also talking strictly personal dps too; I'm not accounting for group dps from AP.

    Feel free to correct me on this butt the 37k dps benchmark was also done with invo over deves too. I also noticed to that with full buffs the crit chance increase to fury is wasted now as I'm hitting 122 ish crit chance (although this drops when you need to dodge).

    Edit: full buffs = realistic standard buffs w/ top end food/utility

    For comparision, what does baseline condi rev with invo and deva give?

    32k

  • narcx.3570narcx.3570 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, we were talking raids I thought... I would probably never take Kalla in a fractal. Honestly, I probably wouldn't even take renegade... The boon share of herald is so strong in 5 man content it's pretty hard to pass up on. Maybe if I was running with a chrono/druid/CPS, but then... They'd probably just want weavers or firebrands to go with their metacomp and kick our poor rev's to the curb.

    I'll never be convinced that Invocation out dps's Devastation in group content though... Solo, maybe, it's 7% condi damage, 20% critical strike chance, and 7% direct damage compared to Devastation's 25% critical damage, +7% direct damage, 20% direct damage after 50%, and siphon damage. But the second the sharable 15% crit damage starts going to other people, it easily overtakes Invo.

    What I still want to know (you guys are running a lot of tests) is does Razorcaw's bleeds scale off your stats, like thief venom share or firebrand's burn sharing, or does it scale off the affected ally's stats, like Sunspirit? I'm assuming the later since they function like spirits in other regards... :astonished:

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.