Has Condi clearance replaced Resistance boon sharing in GvG / Blob vs Blob? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Has Condi clearance replaced Resistance boon sharing in GvG / Blob vs Blob?

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited October 5, 2017 in WvW

Back before HOT, resistance boon sharing was rife and chronos and revenants were wanted in abundance.
Now with the rise of Scourge and Spellbreakers and all the boon hate that they bring, has boons and resistance in particular taken a back seat?
Has Condi clearance become the number one needed item in WvW Zergs and GvGs?
If yes, which are the classes/builds that can pump out condi clearance the best?
What is the current meta squad/team class composition for a GvG / Blob vs Blob / Zerg vs Zerg fight?

Has Condi clearance replaced Resistance boon sharing in GvG / Blob vs Blob? 58 votes

No, Resistance is still king
18%
godfat.2604SkyShroud.2865jul.7602Arheundel.6451Sovereign.1093Gemnaid.4219Daniel Handler.4816atticus.5284roamzero.9486Amins.3710rayder.1659 11 votes
Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.
81%
I Starmore I.4832dzeRnumbrd.6129SkyShroud.2865lolage.1450Stand The Wall.6987Scorci.3250xitoriki.9758Dralor.3701Prophet.1584K THEN.5162FitzChevalerie.1035anonymous.7812Rydelkow.4625babazhook.6805Garrus.7403coglin.1496Haematic.4913KayCee.4653VaaCrow.3076Turra.4529 47 votes

Comments

  • I think you mean "back before PoF".

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017
    Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    Oh wait, i actually voted 1 thinking condi is king, loooool
    msiread

    edit: i found a bug in the poll system, you can actually vote both options!

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    --

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  • Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    Condi clear is more desirable, because you can't produce enough Resistance for this meta. that is not to say Resistance isn't effective, it still works great; but you don't have enough of it

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I believe the correct answer is the third option: "NO, CONDI IS STILL KING"

    This

  • RodOfDeath.5247RodOfDeath.5247 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sagramor.7395 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    I believe the correct answer is the third option: "NO, CONDI IS STILL KING"

    This

    This x2

  • Spurnshadow.3678Spurnshadow.3678 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    Yeah, the premise is wrong. There's way too much boon conversion/stripping to possibly keep up. I mean, this is an extreme example, but with 3 shades and traited properly, a scourge can corrupt 12 boons on 15 people with one key press. Now, that's unlikely, but it's what we're up against.

    basically, all we can do is try to catch the other team off guard, CC them, boon corrupt them before they do it to us.

    We saw this coming after beta.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 5, 2017

    I see many posts saying condi cleanse is not sufficient. Yet is that the truth though? Or are we just not playing with enough players who have shifted to a more anti-condi build?

    POF brought with it lots more boon hate, but also lots more ways to mitigate conditions. And these ways are multi target aoe mitigation.

    • Scourge brought barriers. Loads of AOE barriers. How many of us can say we traited for blood magic aoe healing, got good healing power stats like shaman gear, and built heavily for barrier support that aoe clears condi per barrier applied AND mitigates condi damage as well?

    • Firebrand brought spammable waves of huge AOE 8 cast defensive tomes on F2 and F3. How many can say they have tried a strong healer build with traited tomes plus virtues plus honor?

    And so on.

    Now, Could it be that many players have not adjusted to counter the current boon hate meta? Are melee trains still depending heavily on the old healing composition of revenants and tempests? Are you still seeing necros purely as a Condi boon hate spec? Are you still seeing guardians as a pure tank bruiser with support boons? Does the core healing class composition need to be shaken up?

    I've seen a few successful guilds pushing and winning against larger enemy zergs. They seem to have adapted pretty well. Have you?

    I'm not in these successful guilds and do not know the real composition they are using, but I suggest a total shake up of the current meta composition.

    For example, just some thoughts on what could be tried:

    Spellbreaker: Tank bruiser
    Scourge and Firebrand: primary healer with secondary condi damage like shaman gear.

    So a party will comprise perhaps one spell breaker and two of each Scourge and Firebrand.

  • jul.7602jul.7602 Member ✭✭✭
    No, Resistance is still king

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I see many posts saying condi cleanse is not sufficient. Yet is that the truth though? Or are we just not playing with enough players who have shifted to a more anti-condi build?

    POF brought with it lots more boon hate, but also lots more ways to mitigate conditions. And these ways are multi target aoe mitigation.

    • Scourge brought barriers. Loads of AOE barriers. How many of us can say we traited for blood magic aoe healing, got good healing power stats like shaman gear, and built heavily for barrier support that aoe clears condi per barrier applied AND mitigates condi damage as well?

    • Firebrand brought spammable waves of huge AOE 8 cast defensive tomes on F2 and F3. How many can say they have tried a strong healer build with traited tomes plus virtues plus honor?

    And so on.

    Now, Could it be that many players have not adjusted to counter the current boon hate meta? Are melee trains still depending heavily on the old healing composition of revenants and tempests? Are you still seeing necros purely as a Condi boon hate spec? Are you still seeing guardians as a pure tank bruiser with support boons? Does the core healing class composition need to be shaken up?

    I've seen a few successful guilds pushing and winning against larger enemy zergs. They seem to have adapted pretty well. Have you?

    I'm not in these successful guilds and do not know the real composition they are using, but I suggest a total shake up of the current meta composition.

    For example, just some thoughts on what could be tried:

    Spellbreaker: Tank bruiser
    Scourge and Firebrand: primary healer with secondary condi damage like shaman gear.

    So a party will comprise perhaps one spell breaker and two of each Scourge and Firebrand.

    There is not enough condi cleanse or resistance in this game to combat scourge. You are not ever going to "tank" their condi damage. You basically have to pirateship because pushing into any coordinated group is basically suicide.

  • @ Ermite

    Yes, it's the truth, because before PoF, we were highly condi cleanse heavy.

  • FaboBabo.3581FaboBabo.3581 Member ✭✭✭✭

    why do i think its easy to fight condi scourges on mirage for example.
    Probably u've got to dodge condi apllicators and hold on cleanses until u really get dmg?
    Probably u don't want to run the same group comp as pre PoF?

    Mirage since Day 1 - It got better!

  • Coldtart.4785Coldtart.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    How much condi clear are people actually running, though? I'd dropped wvw for a while after T2 gvg heaven started to die and when I came back to it during hot I was astonished at how little condi clear zergs were actually using. Compared to vanilla I was seeing less condi clear per party despite hot giving most classes significantly more aoe condi clear than they used to have in vanilla. It seems to me that people overestimated resistance too much and the condi meta was the consequence of that.

  • Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    in reality resistance should be immune to corruption and should only be vulnerable to regular boon strips.

  • Nuzt.7894Nuzt.7894 Member ✭✭

    It shouldn't be vulnerable at all but it also shouldn't act as an invulnerability to Condi's it should be a reduction in dmg based on a percentage.

  • Vova.2640Vova.2640 Member ✭✭✭

    Where is the option "both are irrelevant in this meta" ??
    Seriously tho. Power creep won. Everyone is running around full dire/trailblazer throwing condi at each other.
    I thought the meta sucked before PoF... but oh boy.

    Tbh I think this meta is gonna kill WvW finally.. Its unplayable right now and Anet refuses to listen.

  • Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    @Nuzt.7894 said:
    It shouldn't be vulnerable at all but it also shouldn't act as an invulnerability to Condi's it should be a reduction in dmg based on a percentage.

    that would be cool how would you handle its resistance to cripple slow chill fear and such?

  • RodOfDeath.5247RodOfDeath.5247 Member ✭✭✭

    IMO, I think the condi meta is slowing down the game. I feel like groups just dance around for 3 hours not pushing because they are scared to melt due to condition bombs. This is why I don't not hang with big groups, it's a boring dance off at a bridge or choke forever. Observe a fight next time, you'll see bored players running around fake pushing and casting xyz then run back to their group.

    Another aspect is cripple, chill, immobilize, etc. It just slows down combat at times as certain skills only clear x number of conditions and lets face it, you're being loaded with every condition in the game at times.

    Condi is hurting this game mode. Not only by reducing action and combat, but the lag and calculations are struggling clearly. It's affecting the game in so many aspects.

  • @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Has Condi clearance become the number one needed item in WvW Zergs and GvGs?

    there is no frontline anymore, so neither is required

  • @Menaka.5092 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Has Condi clearance become the number one needed item in WvW Zergs and GvGs?

    there is no frontline anymore, so neither is required

    Please do explain this? Because I am stupid, and don't understand your logic.

    I am the one and only true Majestic Being.
    I stand now on the precipice of change.
    My perceptions on quality is refined.
    I am now the outsider looking in.
    Next level simi profession troll at your service.
    Bring the lols like no other.

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017
    Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    Resistance has always been a broken boon -- it's a crazy bad design. It's the equivalent of Protection providing 100% reduction of incoming direct-damage. Resistance should have been "Reduce condition damage/duration by 33%" which then opens up the application and duration of the boon similar to Protection (as in access by more professions, more sources of application, etc.).

    That being said, the prolific boon strip/corruption makes everything non-boon better. This includes condi clears, direct heals, barriers, alacrity, auras, etc.

  • GottFaust.5297GottFaust.5297 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017
    Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    I find both Firebrand and Scourge are VERY effective at clearing conditions off of themselves and allies while also putting out large amounts of high-damage conditions, and the blob that stacks more of both of those will generally win. Add in Scourge and Spellbreaker's ability to rip and corrupt resistance and it's really all down to who can output more conditions than the other guys can clear and clear more than they can put out.

    The loss of a "front line" is unfortunate, but is the new meta honestly worse than the old boon-stacking power-ball?

  • Haematic.4913Haematic.4913 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017
    Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    Resistance is still a strong boon but with the way the meta is shaping up between Firebrand, Scourge and (insert support class here), you really don't need resistance as much as you did in HoT.

    HoT had less strips, less clears, more condition variety.

    PoF has more strips, more clears, less condition variety.

    Edit: It's worth noting, pre-PoF my guild was getting in the habit of blasting light fields which I would highly recommend doing as you're moving around terrain in fights or in objectives; it's much more reliable than resistance uptime-reapplications.

  • Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I see many posts saying condi cleanse is not sufficient. Yet is that the truth though? Or are we just not playing with enough players who have shifted to a more anti-condi build?

    POF brought with it lots more boon hate, but also lots more ways to mitigate conditions. And these ways are multi target aoe mitigation.

    • Scourge brought barriers. Loads of AOE barriers. How many of us can say we traited for blood magic aoe healing, got good healing power stats like shaman gear, and built heavily for barrier support that aoe clears condi per barrier applied AND mitigates condi damage as well?

    • Firebrand brought spammable waves of huge AOE 8 cast defensive tomes on F2 and F3. How many can say they have tried a strong healer build with traited tomes plus virtues plus honor?

    And so on.

    So a party will comprise perhaps one spell breaker and two of each Scourge and Firebrand.

    Our comp now has two FB's per party just to camp and rotate F2 and F3, we also kept the auramancer Ele; and all 3 are in healing/support builds. And we still struggle fighting a scourge heavy group. We loose to a necro bomb as often as we survive; because with 3 "healers/condi clearers" per party, the scourge bomb is still to strong.

    Worse yet is the amount of coordination required to run this comp compared to the complete lack of experience, skill and coordination required to have 20 pugs on scourge.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @momophily.3814 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    I see many posts saying condi cleanse is not sufficient. Yet is that the truth though? Or are we just not playing with enough players who have shifted to a more anti-condi build?

    POF brought with it lots more boon hate, but also lots more ways to mitigate conditions. And these ways are multi target aoe mitigation.

    • Scourge brought barriers. Loads of AOE barriers. How many of us can say we traited for blood magic aoe healing, got good healing power stats like shaman gear, and built heavily for barrier support that aoe clears condi per barrier applied AND mitigates condi damage as well?

    • Firebrand brought spammable waves of huge AOE 8 cast defensive tomes on F2 and F3. How many can say they have tried a strong healer build with traited tomes plus virtues plus honor?

    And so on.

    So a party will comprise perhaps one spell breaker and two of each Scourge and Firebrand.

    Our comp now has two FB's per party just to camp and rotate F2 and F3, we also kept the auramancer Ele; and all 3 are in healing/support builds. And we still struggle fighting a scourge heavy group. We loose to a necro bomb as often as we survive; because with 3 "healers/condi clearers" per party, the scourge bomb is still to strong.

    Worse yet is the amount of coordination required to run this comp compared to the complete lack of experience, skill and coordination required to have 20 pugs on scourge.

    That's where you need 2 more healer Scourge on your team. You can try Shaman gear mix on them. The barrier and condi removal potential is great.

    Many people still see Scourge as mainly a condi Dps spec and run things like full trailblazers. VERY FEW run healer support builds because necros in general has always been about DPS and boonstrip only.

    People haven't gotten around the idea that hey Scourge can actually contribute better as a healer support build.

  • Coldtart.4785Coldtart.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765
    Are you suggesting that groups should be running 5 out of 5 members per party with maximum aoe condi clear? That seems to fit in with the idea that condi overcentralises the meta. Even if such a comp was successful I would consider it a sign that the zerg meta in wvw is absurdly unhealthy.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coldtart.4785 said:
    @EremiteAngel.9765
    Are you suggesting that groups should be running 5 out of 5 members per party with maximum aoe condi clear? That seems to fit in with the idea that condi overcentralises the meta. Even if such a comp was successful I would consider it a sign that the zerg meta in wvw is absurdly unhealthy.

    Actually yes that is close to what I envision.

    • 2 Scourge with shaman type gear
    • 2 Firebrand with shaman type gear
    • 1 spell breaker or renegade or dragon hunter as the commander tank bruiser support.

    Scourge and Firebrand can double up as condi Dps although their primary role will see be condi clear healing support.

    Would be nice if good guilds come out and share their thoughts on the composition they are running though :#

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    Anet will make next elite specs be a litle more anti condi to enforce players buying it lol..

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The reason why Scourge is currently the best anti-condi class is because they give lots of barriers that when buffed with healing power, gives lots of HP which is a strong deterrence against condition.
    We all know vitality is the counter to condition.
    Add to that a properly traited and built Scourge focused around barrier support, you have the birth of your new support healer for your core melee train zerg group.

    Ironic that the Scourge is the class that brings heavy AOE condition to the fights and yet is also the class that brings the best counter to the condition meta.

  • @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Coldtart.4785 said:
    @EremiteAngel.9765
    Are you suggesting that groups should be running 5 out of 5 members per party with maximum aoe condi clear? That seems to fit in with the idea that condi overcentralises the meta. Even if such a comp was successful I would consider it a sign that the zerg meta in wvw is absurdly unhealthy.

    Actually yes that is close to what I envision.

    • 2 Scourge with shaman type gear
    • 2 Firebrand with shaman type gear
    • 1 spell breaker or renegade or dragon hunter as the commander tank bruiser support.

    Scourge and Firebrand can double up as condi Dps although their primary role will see be condi clear healing support.

    Would be nice if good guilds come out and share their thoughts on the composition they are running though :#

    and in your little story, when you and the enemy run this, who exactly kills something?

    proudly wiped by RG and Funny Sunny Bunny

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    As usual, Anet don't design for wvw and this is the result. It's a mess. Luckily I have other games I like and can play those.

    Let me know if they ever address the overbearing condi spam.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shadowresli.3782 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    @Coldtart.4785 said:
    @EremiteAngel.9765
    Are you suggesting that groups should be running 5 out of 5 members per party with maximum aoe condi clear? That seems to fit in with the idea that condi overcentralises the meta. Even if such a comp was successful I would consider it a sign that the zerg meta in wvw is absurdly unhealthy.

    Actually yes that is close to what I envision.

    • 2 Scourge with shaman type gear
    • 2 Firebrand with shaman type gear
    • 1 spell breaker or renegade or dragon hunter as the commander tank bruiser support.

    Scourge and Firebrand can double up as condi Dps although their primary role will see be condi clear healing support.

    Would be nice if good guilds come out and share their thoughts on the composition they are running though :#

    and in your little story, when you and the enemy run this, who exactly kills something?

    I'm not asking everyone to run this though.
    I'm suggesting for the core group to run this. Especially the group that is supporting the commander in pushes.
    The commander must not die.

  • Coldtart.4785Coldtart.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    We all know vitality is the counter to condition.

    That's not even remotely accurate. Condi clear is the only counter to condi pressure and always has been the only counter. At the scale of condi bombs that can be applied in zerg fights max vit is only buying you a few seconds at best and offers no help against the debuff effects from non-damaging condis. You also can't suggest that just one party run absolute maximum condi clear to keep the tag up because all parties need to be able to stay alive. What good is it to have a difficult to kill tag if the rest of the zerg is easy pickings? Being the last to die doesn't accomplish anything.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Coldtart.4785 said:

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    We all know vitality is the counter to condition.

    That's not even remotely accurate. Condi clear is the only counter to condi pressure and always has been the only counter. At the scale of condi bombs that can be applied in zerg fights max vit is only buying you a few seconds at best and offers no help against the debuff effects from non-damaging condis. You also can't suggest that just one party run absolute maximum condi clear to keep the tag up because all parties need to be able to stay alive. What good is it to have a difficult to kill tag if the rest of the zerg is easy pickings? Being the last to die doesn't accomplish anything.

    true =)
    Guess I was overzealous in promoting barrier Scourge as a core class for commander groups.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, Resistance is no longer as important. Condi clearance is much more necessary now.

    double guard save yourselves + contemplation of purity was great before pof
    I guess mantras have replaced that

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Pretty sure condi conversion will take over. Amusing that its spammable on scourge f2, of all classes, with insta cast aoe 4 sec cd.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Coldtart.4785Coldtart.4785 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem with condi conversion is that it just adds unnecessary boons that act as fuel for more boon corrupts. There's far to much boon removal in general in pof; Anet should've looked at toning down boon spam from hot instead of power creeping even more by creating boon strip spam in pof.

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