Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Is Renegade the most poorly designed elite spec in this game?


Skyroar.2974

Recommended Posts

1. Shortbow makes no sense

When you look at all other revenant's weapons, you can tell the intended playstyle for each of them, and how each skill contributes to that playstyle. Swords? Isolate a target, and then deal more damage to isolated targets. Staff? Disrupt your opponent while defending yourself. Hammer? Keep enemies at range to gain an advantage over them (you can even trick the AI to stay away from you with the leaping #3 skill). Mace (with axe)? Pull enemies towards you and bombard them conditions once they're close to each other.

So, what's the style behind shortbow? Which combos can you make with it? I can only see synergy between skill #4 and #5. You put a fire field and then knock them down to make sure they stay there burning. Everything else seems completely unrelated. If #4 and #5 are all about AoE, then why are other skills so focused on single-targetting, up to the point of being anti-AoE (sevenshot)? Why are there no skills that support seven shot? No leap backwards, nothing, except an AoE knockback that seems more fitting to the fire field instead. What does this weapons wants to be or to do, exactly?

2. All utilities skills sharing the same mechanic is a mistake in a profession that can't swap utility skills.

While it makes sense for other professions to get an entire set of new skills that share the same type, as you are not forced to use them all (for example, dragonhunters use a combination of traps and reflection walls/ blocking heals/ quickness shouts/ power signets, etc), the same is not true to Revenant. Being stuck to the same utility skills forces Anet to make them individually more distinct for the sake of... well, making them more enjoyable? And this does happens with other revenant's specs. Jalis has a road, flying hammers, stone transformation and CC chains in the same kit. Mallyx allows you to leap into dark fields, transform into a demon, or curse your opponents by touching them. This kind of diversity makes base Revenant fun. And while Herald uses the same upkeep mechanic for all of its skills, each one of them has a second, active skill with unique mechanics, so you can breath fire into a location, knockback foes with massive wings or revert damage done to you.

Here comes Renegade, and you can summon charr to fight at your side, buffing you and your team as long as you stay with them. Cool! Except it's not a single skill, but all of them. Every single one is about summoning a charr and putting yourself nearby them. No matter if you want to CC, or if you want to life steal, the gameplay is always the same. There's not even a single skill that, say, inverts this situation and allows to be you the one to protect the warband, considering how frail they are. There's no single skill that allows you to interact with the warband in other interesting and creative ways other than that single mechanic copy-pasted into 5 different skills. How boring and lazy does that feels to us, players? Seems like a sign that this elite spec was rushed.

3. F skills have no purpose.

And no synergy with each other. Two of them are random party buffs, and the other is an... AoE nuke... hmm... Why? Were they chosen at random?

If you look at other professions, F skills have unique themes and purpose. Guardian's ones represent their virtues, and gives them some passive power and interesting decision-making between sacrificing their own passive benefits for the good of the party or not. Mesmer's ones also offer an interesting decision between DPS or burst/ utility, and illusion shattering is a very strong thematic quality that gives personality to that profession. Ranger's F skills are all about the different ways they have to interact with their pets.

When you look at renegade's F skills, they don't seem to have any single purpose or any unified thematic quality at all. Why isn't F3 a shortbow skill? It looks like one. Maybe it was meant to be once once, and Anet changed it halfway during development? And if it is meant to be a warband skill (according to its description), why isn't it a kalla's skill then, instead of repeating the same summoning mechanic 5 times? And why is such a nuke skill coupled with... alacrity on F4? Really? Only F2 seems to tie with the spec (as it allows you to make an extra use of the stacks from your new passive), even though the effect itself is bland.

4. Interesting ideas in theory, bad gameplay execution.

Arrows that go through portals? Cool! But the only interesting thing that came out of it was an inverted cone skill in sevenshot. Why does the renegade have no portal mechanic like mesmers have? It would be fitting. Why is there no way to create your own portals and decide where arrows would hit? That would be creative and different. But nope. Outside of seven shot, the shortbow and its "cool-looking portal arrows!" concept is just a copy past of other professions' bow skillsets.

What about fighting alongside your warband? Cool! But other than summoning each one of them in the exact same way, with the exact same playstyle, there's nothing to it, as discussed above. No way to protect them. No way to interact with them in different ways. No way to order them to change behaviour, or to follow you, or anything like that.

5. The spec doesn't addresses the core issues of the base revenant.

In fact, it is completely unaware of them. Outside of offering a much needed ranged condition weapon to revenant, the designer behind this spec is or was completely oblivious to revenant's poor state of energy management in PvE in non-herald builds. Nothing was done to fix this, and in fact, it was only made worse with the new, pointless, overcosted F skills. Renegade has yet another "turn your upkeep skill, do 2-3 different attacks, then AA until your energy reaches 0. Swap legends and repeat" gameplay flow. There's no acknowledgment of this problem. There was no attempt to avoid it in the first place. Nothing.

Conclusion

Even if Anet buffs renegade's numbers, it will forever feel like a rushed spec that can only be fixed by a complete rework. And because we know Anet doesn't have the time or the budget to do a complete rework (or else we would have gotten something much better in its place, I bet), all we can do is hope that the next spec is actually given proper time and thought instead of being rushed through the door.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 130
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Funny, i see a lot of people complaining about the renegade, yet i see a lot of them in PVE maps.There has to be a reason, i can name several to be honest :)

1, Fun! The weapon skills are fun, even the shortbow is fun...yes i dodge more then i do with other classes but getting fire wave at the right place at the right time is fun imo.

2, the utility, in pve we still benefit from the patch that reduces aoe damage to pets with 90%. so only if your pets are being targeted then they will die soon..but otherwise u wont see it happen a lot. In case if they die, the cooldown is so short, u can resummon them very quickly.Other utility, u boost bleed damage from a party by a lot...i saw a major buff after putting a spirit going from 30 stacks of bleed to 60 stacks, going back to 30 after the spirit ended.AOE stun and AOE damage.

  1. The F Skills...1, granting nice amounts of might.2, a big burst skill, i love it. granting fire damage at a nice aoe.3, alacrity! Helping the party with lots of cd reduction.

4, all the skills combined and traits give u freedom to choose what u like...support with protection from the spirits and longer alacrity, or extra burst damage with kadala's fervor.

The damage is nice, even when running sub optimal gear, the skills are fun and they have a lot of utility....stop whining and have fun, if this isnt your elite, u can always go herald.

Cheers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Funny only redditors care only about unicorn arrows and other "fun" aka meaningless stuff like that. Alacrity! Fun! "Kadala's" fervor? Herp derp fun! We haz pets now.... Insert condescending smilie face because it shows you that I'm having fun!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:1. Shortbow makes no sense

So, what's the style behind shortbow? Which combos can you make with it? I can only see synergy between skill #4 and #5. You put a fire field and then knock them down to make sure they stay there burning. Everything else seems completely unrelated. If #4 and #5 are all about AoE, then why are other skills so focused on single-targetting, up to the point of being anti-AoE (sevenshot)? Why are there no skills that support seven shot? No leap backwards, nothing, except an AoE knockback that seems more fitting to the fire field instead. What does this weapons wants to be or to do, exactly?

The best combo for short bow is probably to use first #5, then #4 and then #3 and #2. This is because #4 is so slow that most of AI enemies will move towards you and leave the area targeted by #4 before the arrows "start to fall", so you better secure a knockdown before even to use the #4.

The Renegade traitline is a decent adition to condi Rev, and the shortbow can be used in oper world PvE. But the legend is terribad and I never use the F keys. For PvP/WvW Herald is way better. I don't raid in PvE, but I'm aware that despite the traitline buffs the damage, the Renegade didn't change the condi Rev gameplay, because mace and axe are still the strongest choices, and as a support weapon the staff brings a lot more than the sb. But we already known this since the beta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ugrakarma.9416 said:The concept promised but failed to execute.The idea of the revenant seemed to me to be "a warrior who moves fast, uses some magic and is more sophisticated."Theses AoE spam is very weird and not effective.

Revenant was supposed to be the "death knight" type stuff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@OP Nice breakdown, I agree with all of it. After attempting unsuccessfully to make Renegade work for a while I gave Scourge a try instead. The difference between them is light and day: it's clear what each element of that class wants to do and the implementations of these elements leave little to be desired. Several of the few imperfect elements of that class have also already received some attention, e.g. the addition of lifeforce gain to torch 4, the stability added to Trail of Anguish or the shade target nerf.

As a result I have little interest in playing the Renegade again in the new expansion, and at this point I feel that I've had my say when it comes to this spec. If any devs wanted to swing by here and discuss potential revisions to the class I'd gladly contribute, but in the absence of either revisions or devs I think the politest thing for me to do at this point is to leave the Renegade to those who do enjoy it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Professor Sprout.1560 said:As a result I have little interest in playing the Renegade again in the new expansion, and at this point I feel that I've had my say when it comes to this spec. If any devs wanted to swing by here and discuss potential revisions to the class I'd gladly contribute, but in the absence of either revisions or devs I think the politest thing for me to do at this point is to leave the Renegade to those who do enjoy it.

I don't think anet devs are even allowed to post in threads like this one. I just hope that they read it or are aware that renegade's problems go beyond number crushing and balance fixes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

During the demo I thought it was garbage. But after live it's my main go to class for bounty trains. I'm able to switch between ranged and melee without feeling like I'm missing out on damage all that much, nice group utility with the spirits, and surprisingly more survivable than trying to play sword dagger weaver, firebrand, or mirage. Well, actually, condi soulbeast is pretty nice for bounty trains as well and has ranged/melee option.

As far as open world general use I haven't really struggled on my renegade. All in all leagues better than what it was in the demo but it still could probably use a little bit of energy cost reduction for more ability usage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a fine spec for PvE. Raiding, fractals or open world all fine so far. The trouble is it brings no flexibility and just adds flat stats buff (so boring) and those F skills are rarely even used with that MONSTROUS energy consumption. This spec didn't add anything new to condi revenant, it is still mace+axe spamm for PvE. It's low quality elite spec in my opinion.As for SPvP and WvW...well...just salt. I'll stick to Herald for now that's for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be fair in open world it is at least on par with herald for condi build and you get a ranged condi weapons. Ya, SB damage is low and it is finicky and glitchy, but it still does damage.

Do not get me wrong, renegade is by far the worst elite spec in the expansion (though not necessarily the weakest). It excels though in organized PvE.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Getting a ranged condi weapon is definitely the best thing about renegade, as the base profession needed one, and throwing a strong party buff to your party members or to your zerg definitely feels nice. It's just that the spec doesn't offers anything beyond this at all. Shortbow skills aren't particularly fun other than "yay, we finally have a ranged condition kit!", the F skills are filler and kalla offers nothing besides the summon mechanic, making it feel repetitive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bogus.1598 said:Funny, i see a lot of people complaining about the renegade, yet i see a lot of them in PVE maps.There has to be a reason, i can name several to be honest :)

1, Fun! The weapon skills are fun, even the shortbow is fun...yes i dodge more then i do with other classes but getting fire wave at the right place at the right time is fun imo.

2, the utility, in pve we still benefit from the patch that reduces aoe damage to pets with 90%. so only if your pets are being targeted then they will die soon..but otherwise u wont see it happen a lot. In case if they die, the cooldown is so short, u can resummon them very quickly.Other utility, u boost bleed damage from a party by a lot...i saw a major buff after putting a spirit going from 30 stacks of bleed to 60 stacks, going back to 30 after the spirit ended.AOE stun and AOE damage.

  1. The F Skills...1, granting nice amounts of might.2, a big burst skill, i love it. granting fire damage at a nice aoe.3, alacrity! Helping the party with lots of cd reduction.

4, all the skills combined and traits give u freedom to choose what u like...support with protection from the spirits and longer alacrity, or extra burst damage with kadala's fervor.

The damage is nice, even when running sub optimal gear, the skills are fun and they have a lot of utility....stop whining and have fun, if this isnt your elite, u can always go herald.

Cheers!

While fun is completely subjective, there is no denying that the main reason this spec is used is because of Fervor. The SB is bad, the F skills are horrible in cost for what they give you, (seriously, how can you even remotely defend F2 and F3? They're both terrible) it's terrible in PvP, and a lot of other issues that have been stated over and over.

As far as people playing it, I see fewer revenants than before the expac launch, and most are still playing Herald. I maxed Renegade then went back to Herald before just playing Scourge until something is done to positively change this class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I play with renegade because it's new, and purchasing a new expansion with new specs and not touching them would be unexciting. We've had base revenant + herald for 2 years. It always feels good to play with shiny new toys while they are new.

Even so, I spend more time on mace/ axe + mallyx than on shortbow + kalla, simply because the old skills are so much more enjoyable than the new ones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@otto.5684 said:To be fair in open world it is at least on par with herald for condi build and you get a ranged condi weapons. Ya, SB damage is low and it is finicky and glitchy, but it still does damage.

Do not get me wrong, renegade is by far the worst elite spec in the expansion (though not necessarily the weakest). It excels though in organized PvE.

Yeah I'll admit its fun in raids. Really good actually. Sadly I only raid 1 day a week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Renegade for me has limited use, Glint is generally better; however, when I really want to range and I need a quick-acting stun, Renegade comes through in spades. It’s not a great spec, until you need exactly what it provides. Soul Eater proved that to me (but I hear it’s nerfed now?).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...