Sorry but I don't like the new direction — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Sorry but I don't like the new direction

Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭

PoF was fun and enjoyable, but the story is really meh. I agree with Rytlock, they worked so hard with such sacrifice to kill Kralkatorrik, now they got to protect it. I don't like "kill all the dragons" sure, it's ok to explore the dragons' balance but "protecting them without a real plan and even enhance them" was a really bad idea. It's entirely against the theme during the personal story, where you work so hard to save the living and free the dead from Zhaitan.

At least we should have got a chance to try to work with Balthazar, at least he is negotiable if we help him kill the dragon, Kralkatorrik isn't. Now the dragon is on full power plus and we couldn't do much. Also Menzies wasn't involved in the plot at all, that was disappointing .

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  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Vayne.8563 said:
    It's a plot twist and, in my opinion, a good one. I mean we've already killed two elder dragons and now it seems we're damaging the world by doing it. That's actually pretty clever.

    And it's not like it came out of nowhere these anomalies we've been seeing, the knowledge that dragon's eat magic, a lot of things pointed to the game going in this direction.

    Most importantly fighting six dragons back to back will simply wear thin. A lot of people are all dragoned out and I'm one of them. There's more to fantasy than fighting dragons.

    Oh Zhaitan, Mordremoth and Kralkatorrik wasn't damaging the world?

    And we were going to kill Kralkatorrik, even Glint was going to help DE kill it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    it's ok to explore the dragons' balance but "protecting them without a real plan and even enhance them" was a really bad idea.

    That's actually the point. It is a bad idea... but it's the only alternative they currently have compared to kill another dragon and destroy the world.

    The end of PoF makes it clear that Season 4 has four primary objectives:

    • Re-attempt uniting Dragon's Watch.
    • Find Aurene.
    • Face Kralkatorrik.
    • Figure out how a better alternative to the "kill a dragon and end the world" versus "protect a dragon and let it run rampant" issue.

    They stressed "we have to protect Kralkatorrik" in PoF because they didn't yet have the time to figure out a better alternative. They didn't have time because Balthazar kept pressuring Dragon's Watch with his rate of success, because he was such a huge threat himself as a fallen god that they couldn't sit back with a cup of coffee and go "okay, how do we eliminate the Elder Dragon threat without destroying the world? Brainstorming time!"

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    At least we should have got a chance to try to work with Balthazar, at least he is negotiable if we help him kill the dragon, Kralkatorrik isn't. Now the dragon is on full power plus and we couldn't do much. Also Menzies wasn't involved in the plot at all, that was disappointing .

    One of the things PoF tried to stress, and I felt stressed too greatly, was that Balthazar wasn't negotiable to the situation. This is, imo, the major point of change in Balthazar's persona - and sadly, one that has not yet been provided with an explanation for why the change occurred (I'm not going to shout "retcon!" because it was literally 1,200 years since humans directly interacted with Balthazar by the point that Balthazar proclaims "I AM CONFLICT!" marking his change of persona from GW1 depictions which shows pre-Exodus and followers' interpretations of Balthazar more than Balthazar in the time of 1075 AE).

    As to Menzies... Yes, I agree that's disappointing. I think the plot idea of Menzies winning the Eternal Battle and the other gods refused to step in because they fear an Crystal Sea situation again, like they fear with the Elder Dragons, (that is, cataclysm even if they win) being Balthazar's reason for acting on his own in this accord would have been much better.

    But there are rumors that the first raid post-PoF will be in the Fissure of Woe and that could mean we'll get further lore on Menzies' fate and Balthazar's change of personality (and the outcome of the Eternal Battle).

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    I thought the reason we didn't want more dragon deaths was because of the magic pouring out into the world, but if Balthazar is sucking up all that magic do we really have a problem? Balthazar can speak to us and we can reason with him, he doesn't seem to care about Tyria and once he has enough power he looks like he's going to chase the other gods who are dimension jumping out of danger. Now if the story was "we must stop Balthazar to save the gods from his wrath" I could get behind that.

    Also Aurene has been shown to be able to absorb magic now too, letting Balth take out Kralk then doing a tour of Aurene around sleeping Jormag & Primordus seems the best strategy, then unleashing her against bubbles once she has the power of multiple dragons.

    Oh and if you're going to worry about the refugees fleeing Balth's army you just need to think about Kralk randomly flying over any populated area to understand which problem is worse for the people of Elona.

  • No. Taimi makes it clear in Episode 5 that the problem isn't just excess magic. The simulation shows that the orbs tied to Jormag and Primordus in the all dying means that the rest dies. And the Kesho mission in PoF furthers that it isn't just "excess magic". In fact, at the end of PoF, when we tell Taimi that Kralkatorrik ate all the magic she says that will just further the imbalance.

    It becomes pointblank clear that an Elder Dragons has no apparent limit on how much magic they can hold, but one Elder Dragon having all the magic - even a good dragon - still screws up the balance.

    The balance of the All is what's important, not just "how much magic is in the world".

    In short, it's a two part problem. One problem is excess magic. The other problem is having six equally powerful beings tied to the six aspects of The All.

    Balthazar consuming ambient magic would have only solved the first issue, which is resulting in ley line anomalies and beings going mad from overexposure to magic. But it wouldn't solve the issue of the world falling dying because The All is out of balance.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    No. Taimi makes it clear in Episode 5 that the problem isn't just excess magic. The simulation shows that the orbs tied to Jormag and Primordus in the all dying means that the rest dies. And the Kesho mission in PoF furthers that it isn't just "excess magic". In fact, at the end of PoF, when we tell Taimi that Kralkatorrik ate all the magic she says that will just further the imbalance.

    It becomes pointblank clear that an Elder Dragons has no apparent limit on how much magic they can hold, but one Elder Dragon having all the magic - even a good dragon - still screws up the balance.

    The balance of the All is what's important, not just "how much magic is in the world".

    In short, it's a two part problem. One problem is excess magic. The other problem is having six equally powerful beings tied to the six aspects of The All.

    Balthazar consuming ambient magic would have only solved the first issue, which is resulting in ley line anomalies and beings going mad from overexposure to magic. But it wouldn't solve the issue of the world falling dying because The All is out of balance.

    I don't think Taimi could be trusted 100% it was her idea to use Primordus and Jormag's power against each other.

    Zhaitan's death didn't cause such a big change as well, even though it had awaken for 100 years. Its death made some changes(Teq) but didn't cause huge problem until Mordremoth was also destroyed.

    I think it might be something to do with the "a pair of dragons' magic against each other" or "a pair of dragons both died' instead of killing one.

  • Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    No. Taimi makes it clear in Episode 5 that the problem isn't just excess magic. The simulation shows that the orbs tied to Jormag and Primordus in the all dying means that the rest dies. And the Kesho mission in PoF furthers that it isn't just "excess magic". In fact, at the end of PoF, when we tell Taimi that Kralkatorrik ate all the magic she says that will just further the imbalance.

    It becomes pointblank clear that an Elder Dragons has no apparent limit on how much magic they can hold, but one Elder Dragon having all the magic - even a good dragon - still screws up the balance.

    The balance of the All is what's important, not just "how much magic is in the world".

    In short, it's a two part problem. One problem is excess magic. The other problem is having six equally powerful beings tied to the six aspects of The All.

    Balthazar consuming ambient magic would have only solved the first issue, which is resulting in ley line anomalies and beings going mad from overexposure to magic. But it wouldn't solve the issue of the world falling dying because The All is out of balance.

    The boat has sailed on "balance," two of them are DEAD! We need a second absorber as it stands for any of this to make sense, Aurene can take the place of Mord but with Vlast dead and Balth dead and the gods gone we are fast running out of beings capable of being Zhaitan's placeholder. This "balance" idea is all very hand wavey anyway, the balance that we've been dealing with was predator/prey balance with dragons and magic - now these dragons are some sort of pillar holding up the world too?

    Is this all just a guess by Taimi btw? Her computer simulations are just based on her assumptions, which could be wrong.

  • I'm hoping it turns out that Taimi is secretly plotting to get all the power for herself, and all this stuff about balance is just a delaying tactic until all her pieces are in place.

    The biggest baddie of all will also be the smallest.

    tum tum TUUUUUUMMMMM

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Well, back then all elder dragons were alive, when we killed zhaitan the world still maintained some balances (though I think it was only termporaly has the balance was already broken), mordy's death accelerated the problem and the world's collapse was really starting to show.

    Glint didn't have problem to try killing kalkatorrik, because back then there was vlast to take his place (glint and the forgotten's grand plan, though that seemed to partially fail with vlast's final fate).

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    • Re-attempt uniting Dragon's Watch.

    Can we not? I've had an issue with how it was formed from the get go. Even with some of the members of DE out of commission, Rytlock turning his back on injured/incapacitated members to make Dragon's Watch was a jerk move and, to me, further solidifies Rytlock as an unlikable, unrelatable, unredeemable character. He abandoned what would amount to his warband. For that alone I honestly hope DW falls apart and instead DE reforms with new members (minus Rytlock).

    Of course, knowing my luck, Anet will shove Rytlock down everyone's throat some more, Zojja will still remain on the bus indefinitely because Anet isn't in the business of resolving/concluding that despite muddying it all with hearsay back in Episode 1 of LWS3, and DW will pull through with the magic of friendship and rainbows. :\

    Asura fanatic.
    World's largest Zojja fan.
    Illconceived Was Na fanboy.

  • @Pax.3548 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Well, back then all elder dragons were alive, when we killed zhaitan the world still maintained some balances (though I think it was only termporaly has the balance was already broken), mordy's death accelerated the problem and the world's collapse was really starting to show.

    Glint didn't have problem to try killing kalkatorrik, because back then there was vlast to take his place (glint and the forgotten's grand plan, though that seemed to partially fail with vlast's final fate).

    Then Balathzar should be able to absorb the energy as well, if Vlast can.

  • JayMack.8295JayMack.8295 Member ✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    As Konig already stated, keeping magic balanced seems to also refer to equally sharing it between multiple vessels. Balthazar being capable of absorbing all of Kralk's magic doesn't keep Tyria in 'balance', it just plunges it further into destruction if he can indeed absorb it all.

    That's why killing Balthazar near Kralkatorrik WASN'T a celebration. All (or most) of his magic ended up in two nearby vessels, one of which was ALREADY imbalanced. So the problem ended up becoming three-fold - we have an Elder Dragon we can't kill yet AND it is now even more powerful and destructive than it was before AND magic is further out of balance.

    Both situations were bad. Kralk killing Balth or Balth killing Kralk. Balthazar dying was the better situation out of the two, however, because his active goal was to kill all the dragons regardless of Tyria's fate. Kralk is slightly more passive (thus far).

    As for Zhaitan's death not causing too much catastrophe - well it was the first. The problem is just becoming much more exasperated the more vessels we destroy without a replacement.

    Edit: Also killing Zhaitan without a replacement was still an issue. Its magic ended up shared between the other 5 (as far as we know). The problem is then how you get it back out of them.

  • We are only protecting them until we find a better alternative. That probably means either 'cleansing' them like how we cleansed shards of branded crystal to enter Glint's lair and how glint was purified, or getting replacements.

    The elder dragons are corrupt themselves with their own magic, they are crazed and hunger for magic like the people in Bloodstone Fen affected by the bloodstone explosion. They can't be reasoned with, but if we managed to purify and stabilize their magic, maybe reasoning with them could be finally possible. And if that's not possible, then it's time to talk about getting someone else for the job.

    What we want is magic batteries that no longer hoard magic until full then go to sleep, but that keep the magic flowing. You know, replacing ages of torrential rains and droughts with calm mists and gentle drizzles and overcast skies every now and then.

    Let's not forget there's several friendly dragons and other powerful friendly entities that we could use as replacements for the elder dragons. For example:

    • Aurene
    • Shiny.
    • Albax
    • Kuunavang
    • Particularly powerful friendly Djinn
    • Whatever Razah was, if more ever appeared.
    • Celestials
    • The Pale Tree
    • Cleansed dragon champions, if we manage to replicate the forgotten ritual that converted Glint.
    • The "Great Dwarf" (all remaining surviving dwarves as collective)
    • Even Joko could be... 'convinced' to become the channel of the Death and Darkness part of the magic that Zhaitan used to have.
  • @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    I don't think Taimi could be trusted 100% it was her idea to use Primordus and Jormag's power against each other.

    Zhaitan's death didn't cause such a big change as well, even though it had awaken for 100 years. Its death made some changes(Teq) but didn't cause huge problem until Mordremoth was also destroyed.

    I think it might be something to do with the "a pair of dragons' magic against each other" or "a pair of dragons both died' instead of killing one.

    I fail to see how Taimi is not trustworthy. She made the mistake of acting before thinking. So when she does the thinking, her conclusions (which have been at least mostly right thus far) are not reliable?

    While I do think some of her conclusions (-coughblightingpodscough-) are incorrect given what we've seen and that Anet does enjoy unreliable narrative, I am pretty sure this isn't the case here.

    Zhaitan was drained of magic while he slept by the gods, and again during the campaign in Orr. Mordremoth never was. It makes sense that it would take two, rather than one, dragon deaths to start showing magical excess issues.

    Taimi also stated in Flashpoint that if one more dragon dies then the world dies. Not just if two dragons die, or if you use dragon energies against each other (technically speaking, the Inquest already fused dragon energies at Crucible of Eternity to create Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster - including Primordus' and Jormag's).

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Glint also had the plan to replace Kralkatorrik. She also likely knew that killing one dragon would not have sent Tyria over the edge - killing half of them would.

    @Coulter.2315 said:
    The boat has sailed on "balance," two of them are DEAD! We need a second absorber as it stands for any of this to make sense, Aurene can take the place of Mord but with Vlast dead and Balth dead and the gods gone we are fast running out of beings capable of being Zhaitan's placeholder. This "balance" idea is all very hand wavey anyway, the balance that we've been dealing with was predator/prey balance with dragons and magic - now these dragons are some sort of pillar holding up the world too?

    Is this all just a guess by Taimi btw? Her computer simulations are just based on her assumptions, which could be wrong.

    Again, that's part of the point of we're tumbling down an "oh kitten" hill. Even though we're making victories, we're taking a lot of losses along the way.

    And it's more than a guess, given that Taimi has run simulations based on the Rata Novans' research, Scarlet's research, and probably Snaff/Kudu's research too (if she managed to get such from Zojja/the Pact after they obtained such in the PS). The simulations aren't based on her assumptions, the simulations are based on research to prove whether her hypotheses are right or wrong.

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    The elder dragons are corrupt themselves with their own magic, they are crazed and hunger for magic like the people in Bloodstone Fen affected by the bloodstone explosion. They can't be reasoned with, but if we managed to purify and stabilize their magic, maybe reasoning with them could be finally possible. And if that's not possible, then it's time to talk about getting someone else for the job.

    Mordremoth was pretty kitten reasonable, so I'm not so sure about this claim. In Kesho, Sadizi said that the Forgotten tried and failed to cleanse Kralkatorrik because "its hunger was too great". I think this to mean that rather than being crazed and corrupted by their own magic, the Elder Dragons are simply too greedy and that even if they're "cleansed", they'll just go right back to their old path.

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    Let's not forget there's several friendly dragons and other powerful friendly entities that we could use as replacements for the elder dragons. For example:

    • Aurene
    • Shiny.
    • Albax
    • Kuunavang
    • Particularly powerful friendly Djinn
    • Whatever Razah was, if more ever appeared.
    • Celestials
    • The Pale Tree
    • Cleansed dragon champions, if we manage to replicate the forgotten ritual that converted Glint.
    • The "Great Dwarf" (all remaining surviving dwarves as collective)
    • Even Joko could be... 'convinced' to become the channel of the Death and Darkness part of the magic that Zhaitan used to have.

    I'm not so sure about Razah, Djinn, Celestials, dwarves, or Joko. Nothing ever shows that they are capable of holding magic. In fact, we KNOW djinn cannot because one of them goes crazy from excess magic. Basically anything that becomes a bounty is knocked into the "not viable magic containers". This includes: humans, choya, Forged, Awakened (so no Joko most likely), hydras (odd given they're now being treated like drakes and wyverns it seems, which in turn always seemed close to dragons), humans, norn, dolyaks, ghosts, Facets and branded (also odd, they're dragon minions - I guess some have a limit), wurms, plants, oozes, and elementals.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Well, back then all elder dragons were alive, when we killed zhaitan the world still maintained some balances (though I think it was only termporaly has the balance was already broken), mordy's death accelerated the problem and the world's collapse was really starting to show.

    Glint didn't have problem to try killing kalkatorrik, because back then there was vlast to take his place (glint and the forgotten's grand plan, though that seemed to partially fail with vlast's final fate).

    Then Balathzar should be able to absorb the energy as well, if Vlast can.

    Problem is, he can't, at least not without destroying the world. I think i've started to understand the eternal alchemy. I'll explain it at best as I can in simple language:

    Think of the world of Tyria as a building, as a building, it is supported by 6 great pillars, each of them being the elder dragons, each one of these dragons help keeping the magic from overflowing and thus stop this building from breaking down. When we killed zhaitan, we destroyed one of these pillars, because of that, the building's balance is broken, sooner or later it would come down. Then we killed mordy, and the world started to collapse (our big building is shaking with pieces coming down), with 4 pillars the building that is Tyria is barely holding it together, WE need DRAGONS, not gods to act as pillars for Tyria, that way we can't avoid the inevitable collapse.

    Dragons not only keep the magic in check, they are pillars needed to keep the world from falling apart, thats why Vlast and Aurene are needed, being the same nature as the elder dragons, they could take up their place and thus replace these "pillars" that sustain the world. What balth wanted to do.... is like destroying the pillars to take the materials they're made from and then leave to the mist, you think the world wouldn't collapse that way?

  • @Pax.3548 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Well, back then all elder dragons were alive, when we killed zhaitan the world still maintained some balances (though I think it was only termporaly has the balance was already broken), mordy's death accelerated the problem and the world's collapse was really starting to show.

    Glint didn't have problem to try killing kalkatorrik, because back then there was vlast to take his place (glint and the forgotten's grand plan, though that seemed to partially fail with vlast's final fate).

    Then Balathzar should be able to absorb the energy as well, if Vlast can.

    Problem is, he can't, at least not without destroying the world. I think i've started to understand the eternal alchemy. I'll explain it at best as I can in simple language:

    Think of the world of Tyria as a building, as a building, it is supported by 6 great pillars, each of them being the elder dragons, each one of these dragons help keeping the magic from overflowing and thus stop this building from breaking down. When we killed zhaitan, we destroyed one of these pillars, because of that, the building's balance is broken, sooner or later it would come down. Then we killed mordy, and the world started to collapse (our big building is shaking with pieces coming down), with 4 pillars the building that is Tyria is barely holding it together, WE need DRAGONS, not gods to act as pillars for Tyria, that way we can't avoid the inevitable collapse.

    Dragons not only keep the magic in check, they are pillars needed to keep the world from falling apart, thats why Vlast and Aurene are needed, being the same nature as the elder dragons, they could take up their place and thus replace these "pillars" that sustain the world. What balth wanted to do.... is like destroying the pillars to take the materials they're made from and then leave to the mist, you think the world wouldn't collapse that way?

    Kormir could absorb most of Abaddon's energy as a MERE mortal, I fail to see why Balthazar could not do it.

  • @JayMack.8295 said:
    As Konig already stated, keeping magic balanced seems to also refer to equally sharing it between multiple vessels. Balthazar being capable of absorbing all of Kralk's magic doesn't keep Tyria in 'balance', it just plunges it further into destruction if he can indeed absorb it all.

    That's why killing Balthazar near Kralkatorrik WASN'T a celebration. All (or most) of his magic ended up in two nearby vessels, one of which was ALREADY imbalanced. So the problem ended up becoming three-fold - we have an Elder Dragon we can't kill yet AND it is now even more powerful and destructive than it was before AND magic is further out of balance.

    Both situations were bad. Kralk killing Balth or Balth killing Kralk. Balthazar dying was the better situation out of the two, however, because his active goal was to kill all the dragons regardless of Tyria's fate. Kralk is slightly more passive (thus far).

    As for Zhaitan's death not causing too much catastrophe - well it was the first. The problem is just becoming much more exasperated the more vessels we destroy without a replacement.

    Edit: Also killing Zhaitan without a replacement was still an issue. Its magic ended up shared between the other 5 (as far as we know). The problem is then how you get it back out of them.

    And killing Balthazar didn't cause imbalance? Who said Balthazar couldn't keep the balance? He could also store the magic in the bloodstone or something.

    That's not the case, if Zhaitan's death had caused such problem, then Mordremoth would have been awoke right after Zhaitan's death, it didn't happen.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    I don't think Taimi could be trusted 100% it was her idea to use Primordus and Jormag's power against each other.

    Zhaitan's death didn't cause such a big change as well, even though it had awaken for 100 years. Its death made some changes(Teq) but didn't cause huge problem until Mordremoth was also destroyed.

    I think it might be something to do with the "a pair of dragons' magic against each other" or "a pair of dragons both died' instead of killing one.

    I fail to see how Taimi is not trustworthy. She made the mistake of acting before thinking. So when she does the thinking, her conclusions (which have been at least mostly right thus far) are not reliable?

    While I do think some of her conclusions (-coughblightingpodscough-) are incorrect given what we've seen and that Anet does enjoy unreliable narrative, I am pretty sure this isn't the case here.

    Zhaitan was drained of magic while he slept by the gods, and again during the campaign in Orr. Mordremoth never was. It makes sense that it would take two, rather than one, dragon deaths to start showing magical excess issues.

    Taimi also stated in Flashpoint that if one more dragon dies then the world dies. Not just if two dragons die, or if you use dragon energies against each other (technically speaking, the Inquest already fused dragon energies at Crucible of Eternity to create Subject Alpha and Kudu's Monster - including Primordus' and Jormag's).

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Glint also had the plan to replace Kralkatorrik. She also likely knew that killing one dragon would not have sent Tyria over the edge - killing half of them would.

    She almost caused the destruction of the cycle, why should she be 100% trusted this time?

    We have the plan as well, let Balthazar absorb it.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    And killing Balthazar didn't cause imbalance? Who said Balthazar couldn't keep the balance? He could also store the magic in the bloodstone or something.

    That's not the case, if Zhaitan's death had caused such problem, then Mordremoth would have been awoke right after Zhaitan's death, it didn't happen.

    It's not a question of "could Balthazar had kept balance". It's a question of WOULD he. And the answer to that is no.

    Mordremoth did technically wake up right after Zhaitan's death. It's not just magic levels that wake up the Elder Dragons though, they need to absorb magic first.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    She almost caused the destruction of the cycle, why should she be 100% trusted this time?

    We have the plan as well, let Balthazar absorb it.

    She did it accidentally. A lot of folks screw things up accidentally. She didn't do such with intent, and stopped herself in time. She was doing things rather properly too, by running a small scale simulation before running a large scale one. So she would have realized there was an issue from that experiment - which Balthazar interrupted. Since she couldn't run the experiment, she ran a simulation and came to the conclusion she no doubt would have with that small scale experiment.

    And you're obviously not getting the fact that simply removing magic from the equation would not have solved the issue. It's the balance of the six spheres connected to The All (the spheres themselves are not the Elder Dragons, but something the Elder Dragons are directly connected to). Even with the death of the Elder Dragons those spheres exist and still move (as we see in Taimi's simulation - and in her simulation, two more spheres went dim and slowed after clashing, followed by Tyria doing the same), but they're moving a lot slower and are a lot dimmer. This is the cause of the imbalance.

    Balthazar is not tied to The All, and he would have caused more spheres to become slowed and imbalanced if he was left alone.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Zhaitan, as the most aggressive dragon, the one who awoke 100 years ago, had the Source of Orr to drain and a massive fleet to hunt magic for it to eat, obviously had huge amount of magic energy inside of it.

    But its death didn't cause the same magical flow as we saw in Mordremoth' death. Otherwise Mordremoth should have got the power and awoke right there, Kralkatorrik would have started to move after as well.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    And killing Balthazar didn't cause imbalance? Who said Balthazar couldn't keep the balance? He could also store the magic in the bloodstone or something.

    That's not the case, if Zhaitan's death had caused such problem, then Mordremoth would have been awoke right after Zhaitan's death, it didn't happen.

    It's not a question of "could Balthazar had kept balance". It's a question of WOULD he. And the answer to that is no.

    Mordremoth did technically wake up right after Zhaitan's death. It's not just magic levels that wake up the Elder Dragons though, they need to absorb magic first.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    She almost caused the destruction of the cycle, why should she be 100% trusted this time?

    We have the plan as well, let Balthazar absorb it.

    She did it accidentally. A lot of folks screw things up accidentally. She didn't do such with intent, and stopped herself in time. She was doing things rather properly too, by running a small scale simulation before running a large scale one. So she would have realized there was an issue from that experiment - which Balthazar interrupted. Since she couldn't run the experiment, she ran a simulation and came to the conclusion she no doubt would have with that small scale experiment.

    And you're obviously not getting the fact that simply removing magic from the equation would not have solved the issue. It's the balance of the six spheres connected to The All (the spheres themselves are not the Elder Dragons, but something the Elder Dragons are directly connected to). Even with the death of the Elder Dragons those spheres exist and still move (as we see in Taimi's simulation - and in her simulation, two more spheres went dim and slowed after clashing, followed by Tyria doing the same), but they're moving a lot slower and are a lot dimmer. This is the cause of the imbalance.

    Balthazar is not tied to The All, and he would have caused more spheres to become slowed and imbalanced if he was left alone.

    Who said he couldn't keep it? Taimi?

    Mordremoth didn't wake up right after. You mean something EXTREMELY powerful like Zhaitan's energy couldn't wake it up, but a blow from Scarlet could?

    Then she shouldn't be trusted on such case. We don't just have one person for such high level research, it could easily give false analysis. Even the old ancient knowledge couldn't totally reveal how the cycle works, why should one asura be trusted with such big mistake?

  • It's quite obvious, during the Zhaitan chapter they hadn't got the "balance of magic" thing yet. It was a change of direction.

  • @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Zhaitan, as the most aggressive dragon, the one who awoke 100 years ago, had the Source of Orr to drain and a massive fleet to hunt magic for it to eat, obviously had huge amount of magic energy inside of it.

    But its death didn't cause the same magical flow as we saw in Mordremoth' death. Otherwise Mordremoth should have got the power and awoke right there, Kralkatorrik would have started to move after as well.

    I think you're over-estimating how much magic the fleet could get (read: next to none according to lore) and how much magic Zhaitan had eaten over that century (he hadn't even finished looting the shores of Orr by the time we get there).

    Unlike Mordremoth, Zhaitan was drained to empower the Bloodstone by the Six Gods. So when he woke up he was at a natural disadvantage compared to every other Elder Dragon. He might have had an army of minions immediately, but he only had small magical artifacts and ambient magic to eat.

    Mordremoth, on the other hand, seeped directly into the ley lines.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Who said he couldn't keep it? Taimi?

    ....

    Balthazar did. He outright stated he didn't care about the fate of Tyrians. His goal was to kill all the Elder Dragons then leave and kill the other gods.

    Or did you not pay attention at all.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Mordremoth didn't wake up right after. You mean something EXTREMELY powerful like Zhaitan's energy couldn't wake it up, but a blow from Scarlet could?

    As you yourself state, Zhaitan's death didn't spread out a massive wave of magical energy. So now you're claiming "extremely powerful" but earlier you state it wasn't. You're contradicting yourself now.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Then she shouldn't be trusted on such case. We don't just have one person for such high level research, it could easily give false analysis. Even the old ancient knowledge couldn't totally reveal how the cycle works, why should one asura be trusted with such big mistake?

    I would argue that the jotun and Forgotten did know, even if they didn't share it. In fact, we know that they knew, as we got enough hints to see that they did.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    It's quite obvious, during the Zhaitan chapter they hadn't got the "balance of magic" thing yet. It was a change of direction.

    Maybe, maybe not. But it was set up for sure as of mid-Season 1.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tbh I'd rather trust an annoying asura kid than reasoning with a crazy power-hungry war god who is characterized as dangerous by his own kind.

  • @Pirlipat.2479 said:
    Tbh I'd rather trust an annoying asura kid than reasoning with a crazy power-hungry war god who is characterized as dangerous by his own kind.

    You mean trust an asura to protect a dragon who could NOT be reasoned at all and wanted to consume all?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Zhaitan, as the most aggressive dragon, the one who awoke 100 years ago, had the Source of Orr to drain and a massive fleet to hunt magic for it to eat, obviously had huge amount of magic energy inside of it.

    But its death didn't cause the same magical flow as we saw in Mordremoth' death. Otherwise Mordremoth should have got the power and awoke right there, Kralkatorrik would have started to move after as well.

    I think you're over-estimating how much magic the fleet could get (read: next to none according to lore) and how much magic Zhaitan had eaten over that century (he hadn't even finished looting the shores of Orr by the time we get there).

    Unlike Mordremoth, Zhaitan was drained to empower the Bloodstone by the Six Gods. So when he woke up he was at a natural disadvantage compared to every other Elder Dragon. He might have had an army of minions immediately, but he only had small magical artifacts and ambient magic to eat.

    Mordremoth, on the other hand, seeped directly into the ley lines.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Who said he couldn't keep it? Taimi?

    ....

    Balthazar did. He outright stated he didn't care about the fate of Tyrians. His goal was to kill all the Elder Dragons then leave and kill the other gods.

    Or did you not pay attention at all.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Mordremoth didn't wake up right after. You mean something EXTREMELY powerful like Zhaitan's energy couldn't wake it up, but a blow from Scarlet could?

    As you yourself state, Zhaitan's death didn't spread out a massive wave of magical energy. So now you're claiming "extremely powerful" but earlier you state it wasn't. You're contradicting yourself now.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Then she shouldn't be trusted on such case. We don't just have one person for such high level research, it could easily give false analysis. Even the old ancient knowledge couldn't totally reveal how the cycle works, why should one asura be trusted with such big mistake?

    I would argue that the jotun and Forgotten did know, even if they didn't share it. In fact, we know that they knew, as we got enough hints to see that they did.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    It's quite obvious, during the Zhaitan chapter they hadn't got the "balance of magic" thing yet. It was a change of direction.

    Maybe, maybe not. But it was set up for sure as of mid-Season 1.

    Since Zhaitan is most aggressive dragon, it's safe to assume he got tons of energy to be active, if he couldn't get enough magic to eat he would have moved to do the job himself. He didn't just have small magical artifacts , he got the source of Orr to drain the magic from there.

    Balthazar would not have problem to keep the magical power. I remember it was part of his goal.

    So why didn't Zhaitan's death spread such power? He awoke for 100 years, much longer than Mordremoth did, even if Mordremoth was draining magic like crazy from the ley lines, it's not likely he would have much more magic than Zhaitan over 100 years. There was obvious change of direction there. I didn't contradict myself, Anet did. It's easy to see the change of direction from the original story and went too far this time.

  • Again, you're missing the point. Balthazar KEEPING the magic is the PROBLEM.

    He wants to get more and more power, he says this himself, we know this. That's the ISSUE. That's the part of the problem with balance. He would not relinquish it, it's the reason he had a disagreement with the Gods in the first place. He wanted the ED's power to become HIS and didn't care if Tyria died with them.

    Part of his vengeance plot after obtaining the power was to then leave Tyria with the magic he obtained and go kill the other Gods (because they aren't on Tyria), thus leaving Tyria in a state of a complete loss of magic if it had even survived at all.

  • Erulogos.2591Erulogos.2591 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    Re: Zhaitan, imbalance, magic surges waking other things, etc.

    I can easily accept they hadn't planned the "don't kill them, things will go wonky and then die if you do that" angle with Zhaitan, but there is a lore friendly explanation that fits the evidence to backfill that plot point. Namely, Vizier Khilbron and his cataclysm. A spell powerful enough to sink a large chunk of a continent was also likely powerful enough to damage ley line connections. Having few connections to the magic power network explains many things about Zhaitan, such as why he was seemingly the weakest of the Elder Dragons, why he needed minions to get magic (no other dragon minions have really gone explicitly harvesting magical objects, while Big Z had minions dedicated to eating them,) why his death didn't cause such huge flashy shockwaves (Mordremoth was dropping a cherry bomb into a public bathroom toilet, Zhaitan was dropping one into a porta-potty,) and even why Orr is still lousy with undead (since Big Z's power didn't flood the system, it still permeates Orr, and so we still have deadheads to deal with.)

    Now, this is all my speculation currently, but it ties old lore to new lore, and explains why snuffing the Big Z didn't make it immediately obvious why just offing Elder Dragons would be a bad idea.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Since Zhaitan is most aggressive dragon, it's safe to assume he got tons of energy to be active, if he couldn't get enough magic to eat he would have moved to do the job himself. He didn't just have small magical artifacts , he got the source of Orr to drain the magic from there.

    Balthazar would not have problem to keep the magical power. I remember it was part of his goal.

    So why didn't Zhaitan's death spread such power? He awoke for 100 years, much longer than Mordremoth did, even if Mordremoth was draining magic like crazy from the ley lines, it's not likely he would have much more magic than Zhaitan over 100 years. There was obvious change of direction there. I didn't contradict myself, Anet did. It's easy to see the change of direction from the original story and went too far this time.

    Zhaitan wasn't the most aggressive dragon. He was just the closest of the active dragons. There's a difference. Furthermore, Elder Dragons don't need massive amounts of magic or power levels to be active, what determines them being "active" is merely if they're sending armies out or not.

    You fail to realize what the problem about Balthazar is, or intentionally act as if you don't. Balthazar keeping the magic is the problem, because he is not part of The All.

    Actually it's a plot point that Mordremoth is much more powerful than Zhaitan despite the difference in awakening periods.

    Pact Commander: Troubling to think the jungle dragon is somehow more powerful than Zhaitan.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strange_Observations

    And you did contradict yourself by proclaiming that Zhaitan must have taken in more magic than Mordremoth, but that he also had no visible (key word there: visible) show of spreading magic. This is not a contradiction on ArenaNet's part, given that they, since release, denoted that Zhaitan was in fact NOT the most aggressive or powerful of the Elder Dragons, just that he was the biggest immediate danger (read: closest danger and was actively attacking) - just as Mordremoth is considered "the most immediate but not largest danger" during Season 2 and Heart of Thorns.

    Your failing to comprehend or understand this, despite people informing you otherwise, is not a fault on ArenaNet.

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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Well could it be possible that Zhaitan's magic was initially stored/dispersed in the ley lines and put the ley-lines in critical state where anything could potentially poke a hole in it and would allow all the the stored magic break through which would be what scarlet did with a giant drill at a ley-line hub? The way I view it is that the ley-lines are like rivers with dams along the way where the dams are the ley-line hubs that help regulate the flow of magic, I don't know how the hubs work to regulate the magic, but that is what I think, where the death of zhaitan put the ley-lines in a critical state with some magic/water starting to foam at the top and going over the dam allowing some x amount of magic more in the ley-line stirring some or all of the remaining elder dragons.

    Scarlet took part in the experiment with her mentor and broke her protection barrier which mordy uses to have her start coming up and putting into motion a plan that would speed up his awakening. She found that the hub in lion's arch is pointed in the direction of mordy and by destroying the "dam", which was put in a critical state after Zhaitan's death, all of the pent up magic/water started to flow/flash flood through the river and channels,main and lesser ley-lines, with the mordy sitting on top of the river/main ley-line to consume any and all of the flash flood that comes to him to wake him up/get the show started.

    Also to bring up a point, we did not know at the time was the level of magic mordy has consumed which would put him at pre-awakening level or whatever level that is lower than it. What is known that with the penetration of the ley-line hub by scarlet, let mordy be at awakening level or above it by a little or significant amount. Anet needs to give us a scale/chart for dragon's level of activity including awakening levels along with the magic levels they were at, how much magic is in the whole world, rate of consumption they could maintain, and other factors that could help with understanding the dragons and eternal alchemy.

    Do note that I did not look up time lines as I am lazy and can't find any story line time stamp, x year was victory or death took place in, on the zhaitan and scarlet's wiki page. So I do not know when she became mordy's servant and how much time has pass since her work started and zhaitan's death, but zhaitan's magic did not go directly to mordy since the two dragons were not dragon's arm length apart where as the ley-lines were literally underneath us the whole time I believe. Either way, the ley-lines were closer to zhaitan than mordy and the magic disperesed into the ley-lines with some of the foam/overflow made its way past the hubs/dam and into the different dragons mouth.

    As for Taimi, so far anet given us no one else who is actively working directly under us and can dedicate their whole time to dragons and dragons related stuff alone. Pirory and wishper's do have dragons on their priority list, but that is not the only thing that the have to contend with. Right now, Zojja is out of the picture until anet decides we need her again. The inquest would probably not help us since we screwed them over multiple times. Pirory is busy with uncovering history to ensure no history becomes destroyed/forgotten while keeping an eye out for dragon histories. The whisper order has to contend with the political body and sleazy underbelly of the different societies to get their goals done. The pact is still, in my opinion, slowly recovering its forces and reputation with logan now at the helm. Some asura council members are constantly pulling rank and issuing gag orders if it will help them with their goals even if it means putting the whole world in danger or a part of it in danger.

    Now for taimi, she has currently been gaining first hand access to knowledge of dragon and ley-line with respect to rata novus and scarlet's hidey hole. She even says if scarlet did not go insane, she would be consider a person of great admiration like our Albert Einstein or any other scientist who happen to make significant contribution to the world of academics. So with that research/data, Taimi integrated it into her own knowledge database and fueled more of her ongoing research that she is able to continue with minor interruptions along the way. So the end result for me is that Taimi is the only person that we have, as of right now, constant access too without jumping through little to no hoops like a dolphin in sea world to get up to date information on dragons.

    I think Balth could hold all that magic, but will he take the place of the dragon to what others have said and suggested as pillars? From what the interactions with him, I think he would take that magic and ditch us to go after the gods who stripped him naked and left him in solitary confinement. I think the world would be destroyed or at least all societies would have collapsed and be a former glory of themselves if he decides to come back and be a pillar to restore the balance after getting his revenge on the gods with an undisclosed amount of time.

    As other said, balth did not allow us to have us the time we need to figure out or let Taimi figure out a way to neutered the elder dragons or a way to kill them and replace them so that the whole closed system did not collapse. So we had a choice of either killing balth and let an empowered dragon run and live for another day or let balth kill the dragon absorbing the magic and possibly going after another dragon in a quicker time than we could respond or go after the gods leaving us dealing with the consequences if he was allowed to kill karl.

    Also, Anet did not give our character enough reason to let balth kill karl or an open-close story with how lyssa was portrayed in.

    Anyways, thanks for reading.

    Would be nice to have more hybrid plant and regular clothing for fashion wars or more plant armor.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Zhaitan, as the most aggressive dragon, the one who awoke 100 years ago, had the Source of Orr to drain and a massive fleet to hunt magic for it to eat, obviously had huge amount of magic energy inside of it.

    But its death didn't cause the same magical flow as we saw in Mordremoth' death. Otherwise Mordremoth should have got the power and awoke right there, Kralkatorrik would have started to move after as well.

    I think you're over-estimating how much magic the fleet could get (read: next to none according to lore) and how much magic Zhaitan had eaten over that century (he hadn't even finished looting the shores of Orr by the time we get there).

    Unlike Mordremoth, Zhaitan was drained to empower the Bloodstone by the Six Gods. So when he woke up he was at a natural disadvantage compared to every other Elder Dragon. He might have had an army of minions immediately, but he only had small magical artifacts and ambient magic to eat.

    Mordremoth, on the other hand, seeped directly into the ley lines.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Who said he couldn't keep it? Taimi?

    ....

    Balthazar did. He outright stated he didn't care about the fate of Tyrians. His goal was to kill all the Elder Dragons then leave and kill the other gods.

    Or did you not pay attention at all.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Mordremoth didn't wake up right after. You mean something EXTREMELY powerful like Zhaitan's energy couldn't wake it up, but a blow from Scarlet could?

    As you yourself state, Zhaitan's death didn't spread out a massive wave of magical energy. So now you're claiming "extremely powerful" but earlier you state it wasn't. You're contradicting yourself now.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Then she shouldn't be trusted on such case. We don't just have one person for such high level research, it could easily give false analysis. Even the old ancient knowledge couldn't totally reveal how the cycle works, why should one asura be trusted with such big mistake?

    I would argue that the jotun and Forgotten did know, even if they didn't share it. In fact, we know that they knew, as we got enough hints to see that they did.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    It's quite obvious, during the Zhaitan chapter they hadn't got the "balance of magic" thing yet. It was a change of direction.

    Maybe, maybe not. But it was set up for sure as of mid-Season 1.

    Since Zhaitan is most aggressive dragon, it's safe to assume he got tons of energy to be active, if he couldn't get enough magic to eat he would have moved to do the job himself. He didn't just have small magical artifacts , he got the source of Orr to drain the magic from there.

    Balthazar would not have problem to keep the magical power. I remember it was part of his goal.

    So why didn't Zhaitan's death spread such power? He awoke for 100 years, much longer than Mordremoth did, even if Mordremoth was draining magic like crazy from the ley lines, it's not likely he would have much more magic than Zhaitan over 100 years. There was obvious change of direction there. I didn't contradict myself, Anet did. It's easy to see the change of direction from the original story and went too far this time.

    Alternatively, since Zhaitan was the most aggressive dragon, it must be safe to assume he was the most desperate for magic, whereas the others were able to feed comfortably within their existing territories with some slow expansion.

    Or, if most aggressive does mean most powerful, that seals that Mordremoth had more than Zhaitan- over the course of a hundred years, Zhaitan only pushed as far as Lion's Arch, but within months Mordremoth was attacking the Iron Marches on the far side of the continent.

    Personally, like Konig, I see it as two separate problems- imbalance, and excess magic. Imbalance is the invisible problem that has a good chance of killing us one day but hasn't manifested any noticeable symptoms yet, even with two dragons dead and two dragons drained and prematurely dormant. Excess magic is what we're seeing problems from- leylines, unbound magic, craziness- and the fact that Zhaitan's death didn't start that off just shows that one dragon worth of magic didn't put Tyria over its carrying capacity. There isn't any way to conclude from that whether Zhaitan was more or less powerful from than the others. All we know for sure was that at the time of his death, Tyria was able to safely bear the additional magic strain.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Pax.3548Pax.3548 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 6, 2017

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    @Pax.3548 said:

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Even Glint didn't have a problem to kill Kralkatorrik as well, it was the plan from the beginning.

    Well, back then all elder dragons were alive, when we killed zhaitan the world still maintained some balances (though I think it was only termporaly has the balance was already broken), mordy's death accelerated the problem and the world's collapse was really starting to show.

    Glint didn't have problem to try killing kalkatorrik, because back then there was vlast to take his place (glint and the forgotten's grand plan, though that seemed to partially fail with vlast's final fate).

    Then Balathzar should be able to absorb the energy as well, if Vlast can.

    Problem is, he can't, at least not without destroying the world. I think i've started to understand the eternal alchemy. I'll explain it at best as I can in simple language:

    Think of the world of Tyria as a building, as a building, it is supported by 6 great pillars, each of them being the elder dragons, each one of these dragons help keeping the magic from overflowing and thus stop this building from breaking down. When we killed zhaitan, we destroyed one of these pillars, because of that, the building's balance is broken, sooner or later it would come down. Then we killed mordy, and the world started to collapse (our big building is shaking with pieces coming down), with 4 pillars the building that is Tyria is barely holding it together, WE need DRAGONS, not gods to act as pillars for Tyria, that way we can't avoid the inevitable collapse.

    Dragons not only keep the magic in check, they are pillars needed to keep the world from falling apart, thats why Vlast and Aurene are needed, being the same nature as the elder dragons, they could take up their place and thus replace these "pillars" that sustain the world. What balth wanted to do.... is like destroying the pillars to take the materials they're made from and then leave to the mist, you think the world wouldn't collapse that way?

    Kormir could absorb most of Abaddon's energy as a MERE mortal, I fail to see why Balthazar could not do it.

    Kormir received a special "gift" from the gods, which allow her to absorb abbadon's power without dying in the process, whatever this special gift was, we don't know. So, even if many players back then were annoyed that kormir took the big prize, only she could have done so.

    You can check this by yourself reading the dialogue from "the gate of madness" mission from gw1 nightfall.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The simulations aren't based on her assumptions.

    All simulations are based on assumptions. If they aren't based on Taimi's assumptions they will be based on Rata Novan's assumptions, where is the evidence that Tyria specifically requires 6 beings of around equal power being on planet and holding vast amounts of magic? We're starting from that point and assuming it is required, every bit of research is corrupted by the presence of these beings. The Bloodstone functioned for quite a while as a repository of magic this did not cause imbalance, the gods walked on Tyria and this didn't cause an imbalance.

    Also do we need to divide up the magic again at the end? Does it matter that all the death magic is in one being? Are we going to throw Kralk in a centrifuge?

    We're currently winning (as in defeating every dragon we get near, sometimes within a week of trying) and Balth seems to have developped tech to defeat elder dragons (or at least drain them dry while paralyzing them). Why do the human gods not come down and take the place of the elder dragons? Even just for selfish reasons, we're offering such delicious and vast quantities of magic. They seem the most logical replacement, we might even get the Charr purged from Ascalon too, best possible outcome.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    Properly done simulations are based on facts that are presented with a "what if" question (the "assumption" as you're calling it).

    The "what if" in Taimi's simulation is "what if we use Primordus' and Jormag's energies against each other", and coalating it against the facts presented by the research of Tarir, Rata Novus, etc.

    As for the evidence that Tyria requires 6 beings, when so many different individuals (Forgotten, Glint, Apostate, Jotun, Six Gods) say such it tends to be true. Especially since we ourselves saw The All in person when we went into Omadd's Machine and saw that Zhaitan's sphere went out of wack and damaged Tyria's sphere (or did you forget that bit from Season 2, our very first true hint that killing Elder Dragons is a bad idea).

    As for why the gods don't come down and do things... as Kormir explains, any direct confrontation between god and dragon would result in cataclysm to the environment, worse than what the Elder Dragon alone does. This also happens when god fights god, as The Desolation used to be a verdant coastline and is now a sulfuric wasteland (though it's gotten better now that Abaddon's influence is no longer making it worse, but it's still bad and will no doubt take many more centuries to heal).

    Imagine if the Tarnished Coast got turned into The Desolation. That's basically what had already happened. And if the gods fought the dragons, then there'd be up to six more regions completely devastated like that - and that's just right next to major civilizations as it stands (if not at those civilizations).

    Whether the gods can replace the dragons in The All is a complete unknown at this moment. But we know that Balthazar had no intention of doing such.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Slowpokeking.8720Slowpokeking.8720 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Alternatively, since Zhaitan was the most aggressive dragon, it must be safe to assume he was the most desperate for magic, whereas the others were able to feed comfortably within their existing territories with some slow expansion.

    Or, if most aggressive does mean most powerful, that seals that Mordremoth had more than Zhaitan- over the course of a hundred years, Zhaitan only pushed as far as Lion's Arch, but within months Mordremoth was attacking the Iron Marches on the far side of the continent.

    Personally, like Konig, I see it as two separate problems- imbalance, and excess magic. Imbalance is the invisible problem that has a good chance of killing us one day but hasn't manifested any noticeable symptoms yet, even with two dragons dead and two dragons drained and prematurely dormant. Excess magic is what we're seeing problems from- leylines, unbound magic, craziness- and the fact that Zhaitan's death didn't start that off just shows that one dragon worth of magic didn't put Tyria over its carrying capacity. There isn't any way to conclude from that whether Zhaitan was more or less powerful from than the others. All we know for sure was that at the time of his death, Tyria was able to safely bear the additional magic strain.

    Then by that logic, Kralkatorrik must have a tiny bit of magic energy and would not affect the world much if it gets killed.

    It was very very very hungry and it didn't expand much after the assault.

    Why not admit there was obvious change of direction?

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    Zhaitan wasn't the most aggressive dragon. He was just the closest of the active dragons. There's a difference. Furthermore, Elder Dragons don't need massive amounts of magic or power levels to be active, what determines them being "active" is merely if they're sending armies out or not.

    You fail to realize what the problem about Balthazar is, or intentionally act as if you don't. Balthazar keeping the magic is the problem, because he is not part of The All.

    Zhaitan was, it was on Orr and had a massive fleet to create blockade, and keep attacking ports, expanding its territory to the coast. That's the most aggressive dragon we've known of.

    If they don't have enough magic they went to sleep. They NEED a big amount of energy to awake.

    Balthazar wasn't the problem, Kralkatorrik was, just look at the end of the story.

    Actually it's a plot point that Mordremoth is much more powerful than Zhaitan despite the difference in awakening periods.

    Pact Commander: Troubling to think the jungle dragon is somehow more powerful than Zhaitan.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Strange_Observations

    >

    But it wasn't the case, it took much shorter time to finish Mordremoth than Zhaitan. Mordremoth only got the advantage of being new, ppl don't know its weakness well. Even with the big mistake on the assault, we got it pretty quickly. Without the mistake of air assault and turning in the Sylvari for him, he would have been even less threatening. His original design doesn't include the Mordrem Guards.

    And you did contradict yourself by proclaiming that Zhaitan must have taken in more magic than Mordremoth, but that he also had no visible (key word there: visible) show of spreading magic. This is not a contradiction on ArenaNet's part, given that they, since release, denoted that Zhaitan was in fact NOT the most aggressive or powerful of the Elder Dragons, just that he was the biggest immediate danger (read: closest danger and was actively attacking) - just as Mordremoth is considered "the most immediate but not largest danger" during Season 2 and Heart of Thorns.

    Your failing to comprehend or understand this, despite people informing you otherwise, is not a fault on ArenaNet.

    Of course Zhaitan must have taken more magic, it got a bigger army, had much longer active time to consume magic. Why didn't it have more? You need a super gun from the flagship to take down Zhaitan and just a bunch of ppl with bombs+a few ppl to get into Mordremoth' mind to kill it off.

  • Coulter.2315Coulter.2315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Properly done simulations are based on facts that are presented with a "what if" question (the "assumption" as you're calling it).

    No the assumptions are the "facts." You ask the computer "given x, y and z what will the outcome be over time?" That x, y and z are assumptions which you hope are correct and you have some evidence for but since no one has killed an elder dragon before in the history of Tyria we're working off a "guess what is happening" amount of data. Any error in naming x, y or z (there could be buckets of these not just 3) can produce results which do not relate to the "real world." There could be a 'w' that is crucial and you left it out or you could have named 'x' when 'x' has nothing to do with the actual process or is a by-product of the true interaction.

    Simulations are projections based on assumptions and in this case I would seriously consider the strength of them (given this is the first time anyone has data or experience of this situation, oh and it is being done by a kid :P).

    I'm not asking the gods to help, just teleport in as we remove the dragons' heads and suck up the magic, then we have 6 pillars who are benevolent. We don't aparently need their help with 2 dead and 3 more brought to their knees by technology (Balth's tank could be replicable if Omadd's machine is not).

  • @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Zhaitan was, it was on Orr and had a massive fleet to create blockade, and keep attacking ports, expanding its territory to the coast. That's the most aggressive dragon we've known of.

    Yes, Zhaitan was in Orr. While Jormag moved south, while Kralkatorrik moved south, while Primordus was moving about.

    Zhaitan remained in Orr.

    That makes him the most aggressive dragon? The fact that he stayed still and barely expanded beyond his borders in 100 years, while Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus all covered thrice the size of Orr just in the time when they woke up?

    What kind of logic is that?

    Zhaitan struck three ports. Three in the course of 100 years. One of them twice. So that's basically four assaults.

    Meanwhile, Primordus destroyed six cities on par to Rata Sum. Jormag did the same to norn and kodan combined. And even Kralkatorrik had been causing issues for the northern Crystal Desert the whole time.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    If they don't have enough magic they went to sleep. They NEED a big amount of energy to awake.

    Not necessarily "big" amount of magic. As shown by Primordus and Kralkatorrik, they can wake up without even a herald aiding them. It just takes longer. Now, given Zhaitan woke up "on time" he likely had a herald. But neither he nor Jormag had a power boost like Mordremoth got.

    And unlike Mordremoth, Zhaitan had been weakened during the campaign (the entire point of the campaign was to weaken Zhaitan before assaulting him - from the Eyes to the temples to the Mouth and even the cleansing of Orr).

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Balthazar wasn't the problem, Kralkatorrik was, just look at the end of the story.

    Both were a problem. That's the entire point of S3+PoF.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    But it wasn't the case, it took much shorter time to finish Mordremoth than Zhaitan. Mordremoth only got the advantage of being new, ppl don't know its weakness well. Even with the big mistake on the assault, we got it pretty quickly. Without the mistake of air assault and turning in the Sylvari for him, he would have been even less threatening. His original design doesn't include the Mordrem Guards.

    People didn't know Zhaitan's weakness. We got lucky with Mordremoth since we learned his weakness and thus could take him out at full power. Furthermore, we cannot accurately say which one was felled faster. We know that the campaign against Mordremoth (the duration of HoT that is) was about a month, but we don't have any clue as to how long the campaign against Zhaitan was.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Of course Zhaitan must have taken more magic, it got a bigger army, had much longer active time to consume magic. Why didn't it have more? You need a super gun from the flagship to take down Zhaitan and just a bunch of ppl with bombs+a few ppl to get into Mordremoth' mind to kill it off.

    You're ignoring the fact that "super gun" wasn't at all what took Zhaitan down.

    You're also ignoring the fact that we didn't use any obvious unique weakness to kill Zhaitan, which is why it took more effort, not because Zhaitan was stronger (as I pointed out, it's explicitly stated that Mordremoth was stronger than Zhaitan).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Athrenn.9468Athrenn.9468 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You're ignoring the fact that "super gun" wasn't at all what took Zhaitan down.

    I mean, if you were referring to literally bringing him down from the sky...

    Zojja: Stand aside. I have this.
    Second Mate Kajunk: Excuse me? This is a mist-cooled tripartate thautmatium energy weapon.
    Zojja: Uh-huh. With a lead tracer array set for draconic energy. Who do you think designed it?
    Zojja: I know how to handle this. I won't break it. Much.

    Zojja: Yes! We've carved its tail off!
    Crew: It can't stay in the air!
    Rytlock Brimstone: We've driven him out of the sky!
    Caithe: He's still dangerous! Watch yourselves!
    Eir Stegalkin: We almost have him! Pour it on!
    Captain Vandem: We've taken down the dragon! I repeat! We have taken down the dragon!

    So I suppose it technically did "take Zhaitan down", even if it didn't deliver the killing blow.

  • I love how complex and layered the story is getting. At launch it was, Dargons are bad, lets kill them all. Pure black and white story telling, and very repeditive too: 1. Dragon wakes up, 2. Dragon becomes threat, 3. Fight way to dragon, 4. Kill dragon, 5. Repeat with new dragon.

    If they kept going with that systematic pattern it would have quickly become boring after the 3 dragon, so to keep things interesting and make it feel more real(because in life nothing is ever so simple and easy) they gave consequences to our actions: we need to kill dragons, but doing so will destroy the word. Well where does that leave us now? Its not so simple as kill or be killed anymore, this allows for truly deep complex story telling to unfold.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    You're also ignoring the fact that we didn't use any obvious unique weakness to kill Zhaitan, which is why it took more effort, not because Zhaitan was stronger (as I pointed out, it's explicitly stated that Mordremoth was stronger than Zhaitan).

    Well, there were Gorr's experiments involving taking the energy of the Risen, changing it in some fashion, and throwing it back at them. We may have stumbled on Zhaitan's unique weakness without knowing what we were doing (it's not far from the weaknesses of Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth of using their own power against them).

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Well, there were Gorr's experiments involving taking the energy of the Risen, changing it in some fashion, and throwing it back at them. We may have stumbled on Zhaitan's unique weakness without knowing what we were doing (it's not far from the weaknesses of Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth of using their own power against them).

    I have always theorized that Zhaitan's weakness was, ultimately, his minions.

    While we admittedly haven't seen too much of the other dragon's minion hierarchy, except Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's seemingly unique use of eyes and mouths gave it both a unique advantage, in that it could oversee and manage its minions more effectively over large areas, as well as consume magic without having to actually have the magic brought to him directly, but also a rather unique weakness, in that, if you could manage to take both of those out, Zhaitan would be left blind and hungry, since it relied on them to function.

    Similar to how Mordremoth's advantage was that he was basically a mind that should shift itself anywhere along its "body", but it was also his weakness since if you managed to infiltrate and take out his mind, fighting his body wouldn't have been necessary.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Yes, Zhaitan was in Orr. While Jormag moved south, while Kralkatorrik moved south, while Primordus was moving about.

    Zhaitan remained in Orr.

    That makes him the most aggressive dragon? The fact that he stayed still and barely expanded beyond his borders in 100 years, while Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Primordus all covered thrice the size of Orr just in the time when they woke up?

    What kind of logic is that?

    Zhaitan struck three ports. Three in the course of 100 years. One of them twice. So that's basically four assaults.

    Yes, his forces reached very far, he stayed due to the Source of Orr was there. He also expanded its forces to the coast.

    Meanwhile, Primordus destroyed six cities on par to Rata Sum. Jormag did the same to norn and kodan combined. And even Kralkatorrik had been causing issues for the northern Crystal Desert the whole time.

    Zhaitan pretty much blocked the sea, attacked ports, expanded its territory far enough and even attacked the Orders. He was taken out because he was the most aggressive one. Unlike the others, he awoke on a dead kingdom.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    If they don't have enough magic they went to sleep. They NEED a big amount of energy to awake.

    Not necessarily "big" amount of magic. As shown by Primordus and Kralkatorrik, they can wake up without even a herald aiding them. It just takes longer. Now, given Zhaitan woke up "on time" he likely had a herald. But neither he nor Jormag had a power boost like Mordremoth got.

    Yes, Primordus awoke due to Abaddon's energy. Jormag required to drain magic for years. Mordremoth got up because of the magic.

    And unlike Mordremoth, Zhaitan had been weakened during the campaign (the entire point of the campaign was to weaken Zhaitan before assaulting him - from the Eyes to the temples to the Mouth and even the cleansing of Orr).

    Same with Mordremoth, you think destroying its champions and blight tree doesn't weaken him?

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    Balthazar wasn't the problem, Kralkatorrik was, just look at the end of the story.

    Both were a problem. That's the entire point of S3+PoF.

    Balthazar wanted to kill the dragons, Kralkatorrik wanted to destroy us all.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    People didn't know Zhaitan's weakness. We got lucky with Mordremoth since we learned his weakness and thus could take him out at full power. Furthermore, we cannot accurately say which one was felled faster. We know that the campaign against Mordremoth (the duration of HoT that is) was about a month, but we don't have any clue as to how long the campaign against Zhaitan was.

    Ppl knew Zhaitan's method well enough and took a much better.

    We also got the blue orb which could counter his corruption magic, the super laser was also made to cause damage against the dragons specifically.

    Mordremoth wasn't more powerful, it was just new so we made some mistakes. If we had known it well enough, they wouldn't have simply sent airship to fight it and let the Sylvari get close. Without the Mordrem guards and the airships intact, it would have been easier.

    @Slowpokeking.8720 said:

    You're ignoring the fact that "super gun" wasn't at all what took Zhaitan down.

    You're also ignoring the fact that we didn't use any obvious unique weakness to kill Zhaitan, which is why it took more effort, not because Zhaitan was stronger (as I pointed out, it's explicitly stated that Mordremoth was stronger than Zhaitan).

    Exactly, so it made Zhaitan more threatening.

    We didn't know Zhaitan's weakness, but we got a orb which could counter his magic, the superlaser was also using draconic energy.

  • @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @draxynnic.3719 said:
    Well, there were Gorr's experiments involving taking the energy of the Risen, changing it in some fashion, and throwing it back at them. We may have stumbled on Zhaitan's unique weakness without knowing what we were doing (it's not far from the weaknesses of Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth of using their own power against them).

    I have always theorized that Zhaitan's weakness was, ultimately, his minions.

    While we admittedly haven't seen too much of the other dragon's minion hierarchy, except Mordremoth's, Zhaitan's seemingly unique use of eyes and mouths gave it both a unique advantage, in that it could oversee and manage its minions more effectively over large areas, as well as consume magic without having to actually have the magic brought to him directly, but also a rather unique weakness, in that, if you could manage to take both of those out, Zhaitan would be left blind and hungry, since it relied on them to function.

    Similar to how Mordremoth's advantage was that he was basically a mind that should shift itself anywhere along its "body", but it was also his weakness since if you managed to infiltrate and take out his mind, fighting his body wouldn't have been necessary.

    I want to first note that all dragon minions - even among minions - have shown the ability to drain magic personally. One case in point being the mordrem's invasion of Fort Concordia, Fort Salma, and the Iron Marches where the mordrem attacked priory caravans and krait obelisk shards, even drained some magical artifacts of its power. In Honor of the Waves, the icebrood are also hunting down magical artifacts in the Zealot path. Though none had a Mouth of Zhaitan equivalent which allowed efficient consumption of magic from small artifacts (which also destroyed the artifacts), all their minions could still consume magic without having to bring it directly to the Elder Dragon.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭
    edited October 7, 2017

    @Coulter.2315 said:

    I'm not asking the gods to help, just teleport in as we remove the dragons' heads and suck up the magic, then we have 6 pillars who are benevolent. We don't aparently need their help with 2 dead and 3 more brought to their knees by technology (Balth's tank could be replicable if Omadd's machine is not).

    Question is. Are the gods able to fill in this roles? Or is the nature of their being, you know, either being from the mists or from another world with magic thats alien to Tyria, preventing them to be the pillars for Tyria? Before doing this we should be sure that they are able to do this, otherwise killing the next Dragon would result in a cataclysm. And if they don't want to do this, then this would be quite a futile approach.

    Also, is just sucking up their magic enough? Or do you need to do some weird stuff? We still don't know how the Elder Dragons became the Pillars of this world and the answer to that could help us replace the Dragons.

  • @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I want to first note that all dragon minions - even among minions - have shown the ability to drain magic personally. One case in point being the mordrem's invasion of Fort Concordia, Fort Salma, and the Iron Marches where the mordrem attacked priory caravans and krait obelisk shards, even drained some magical artifacts of its power. In Honor of the Waves, the icebrood are also hunting down magical artifacts in the Zealot path. Though none had a Mouth of Zhaitan equivalent which allowed efficient consumption of magic from small artifacts (which also destroyed the artifacts), all their minions could still consume magic without having to bring it directly to the Elder Dragon.

    I never said the other dragons could't do what you describe, only that they didn't have specialized minions to do it as their primary means of doing it.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel as if the narrative has no Idea what it wants to be, and the change in so many old-standing characters is horrible. But we all know they want to wash their hands of guild wars 1, and cut as many ties as possible to it. This games plot is like a saturday morring cartoon and balth was our shredder, so now we need to wait until we get all the possible generic villains out of the way.

    I predicted 90% of this, I even assumed of Gleam did appear they would kill him and have him be there as an end to his plot to sever another life-line to the original guild wars. Frankly the plot is predictable, and part of me wishes they would just stop and focus on other things because they have proven that their writing is horrible and their "Deep and intellectual story with multi-branching living world" is nothing but a bunch of kitten. Leave story telling to single player games who are focused on it, and stop trying to feed me a generic tale of generic people doing generic things.

    Balth could of been a very anti-villain/anti-hero, he could of stuck around and found out he could no longer attempt to even contact the gods.. that NO one could and his vengeance could never be satiated. OR even be reasoned with by our character who could be like "You took out joko, your have been fighting the dragon why not help us find a way to fix the balance and simply be alongside your people". Have him bee a grey area, I mean in the lore he was pretty reasonable and had a sense of honor and pride so why not have him reflect this. Have us fighting and beat him, but not destroy him out-right and have his part of the pantheon be vacant and if Menzies did actually beat him then we could have the fissure of woe be a raid in which we help him beat menzies?

    Balth was a villain who had alot of potential, and it fell flat... Krak will be dealt with in living world and going forward I dont know what to think because we still have to deal with braham and we still need to deal with aurene. Krak wont be a problem after living world, and Im pretty sure braham wont be either... unless the next expansion is about us stopping braham and ending his tyranny of kitten right here.

    ( I only got this expansion for the plot, and to see what our exploits in living world would amount too. Everything else was kinda meh for me )

  • @Slowpokeking.8720 said:
    PoF was fun and enjoyable, but the story is really meh. I agree with Rytlock, they worked so hard with such sacrifice to kill Kralkatorrik, now they got to protect it. I don't like "kill all the dragons" sure, it's ok to explore the dragons' balance but "protecting them without a real plan and even enhance them" was a really bad idea. It's entirely against the theme during the personal story, where you work so hard to save the living and free the dead from Zhaitan.

    At least we should have got a chance to try to work with Balthazar, at least he is negotiable if we help him kill the dragon, Kralkatorrik isn't. Now the dragon is on full power plus and we couldn't do much. Also Menzies wasn't involved in the plot at all, that was disappointing .

    the whole guild war 2 story in a nut shell is meh as far back as personal story this story has been in the gutter and the expantion did not fix that so i think we should all just stop caring about it cuz its clear its not getting any better from here.

  • I agree with the OP. I assume the developers were all sitting around one day and decided just focus the story around killing the rest of the dragons was boring. When in reality that is exactly what I would prefer.

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