Is Renegade the most poorly designed elite spec in this game?

[Kodiak.3281]

Like, how many times does it need to be said?

Renegade is basically the other half of our Condi spec. That's it. It's not meant for PvP. It's not meant for WvW. It's a PvE/Raiding specialization that supports the Condi DPS spec. That's it. Traits are a DPS increase and the new Legend will add DPS in a 5 man party over Jalis. Short Bow gives us a ranged option on PvE encounters were melee isn't an option (IE: boss target will evade all melee attacks kinda scenario). It's not going to replace Mallyx or M/A.

That's it. That's all there is to it. It's not bad. It's not great.

People complaining "Oh noes the F skills are useless!" welcome to the Revenant class where most of our abilities are useless other than channels and weapon ability spam.

[SkylightMoon.2098]

I've played around 100 games AT LEAST in ranked, relatively high elo(1700) and haven't seen 1 renegade so far. The few high elo revenant players I talk to have all told me renegade is total garbage, lack of sustain, utility, and just all around inferior to the standard revenant build for pvp which is already somewhat underpowered.

I'd guess part of renegades problems stems from the core problems that still exist with revenant as a class. It needs a bit of a revamp imo.

[JVJD.4912]

I am voting mirage is poorly designed

[witcher.3197]

@wongdong.9162 said:My only issue with the spec is the legend abilities themselves. The spirits and what they do aren't the problem, but it's the fact that they cost a lot of energy and can be cc'd and killed rendering a wasted slot. At least ranger spirits can be blown up to provide a second utility before they die and go on cd. They are also very finicky in placement on different terrain. Platforms, stairs and other places where it isn't touching solid earth is a real pain when you need to switch legends for a second heal or damage ability.

The line itself and the f-skills I find useful. F-skills could use a lil more energy reduction for what they do imo, but they do what it says they do on the tin. Shortbow is fine and i have no problems with it. It feels very "reverse Ranger", but considering that the lead dev is Irenio, that doesn't surprise me.

The Spirits shouldn't be unkillable. Even if they are useless in PvP right now, they cover a much larger field than wells or shades, an area denial of that scale should have a counter. Maybe make them act like pets in PvE (so they take reduced damage) but don't change them for PvP/WvW.

[Set.7461]

@Absconditus.6804 said:As I wrote in my previous response, practice certainly helps with leading shots.

You're practicing on big hitbox stationary heavy golems. I'm practicing on moving people which means I have to account for optimal distance, predicting where they're moving, trusting that they'll keep moving is said direction when I release it shot, and seeing it completely miss due to cast time, arrow velocity, and lag, change of direction after the shot, and combinations of everything.

As for Icerazor's Ire having no Chill. Are you proposing (like others have a number of times) that it should have the potential to output a guaranteed 20 stacks of Torment when facing single targets, on top of the Torment it can already produce from Rampant Vex triggering?

Yes. Once again, you're practicing on A.I./stationary targets. I'm considering real people who knows how to dodge which can easily negate a good chuck of Icerazor's bolts. And they also know not to stand in the middle of the field. When you're in PvE-land and you see a big red circle under your feet, do you just stand there? Of course not. We should have utilities that actually do damage instead of being a little bit stronger than Precision Strikes which costs less energy and more reliable(yes, never thought I'd say that).

Soulcleave's Summit does also technically work with our summons, as they are as aforementioned, extensions of us. It simply does not work with Icerazor's Ire the same way it doesn't work with Sevenshot, since that would be 20 hits triggering it in a very short period of time. Again, I can see the balance there from the points I tried to make above. It does however, works with Darkrazor's Daring as can be seen in the following clip.

Honestly, the stoic in me thinks this is a bug due to the tooltip but I hope it stays.

But sure, I can certainly imagine comboing Soulcleave's Summit with Icerazor's Ire (with it having Chill instead of Cripple), providing the potential for a whopping 8200 physical damage + 70455 Torment damage (20 guaranteed stacks from it doing Chill and triggering Abyssal Chill, plus let's say 13 stacks from Rampant Vex like in the clip above, over the course of 7 seconds – on a stationary target) + 9100 Life Siphon Damage + 6150 Poison damage (2 stacks from Venom Enhancement over the course of 10 seconds) + 9360 Bleed damage (3 stacks from Superior Sigil of Earth triggering 3 times over the course of 10 seconds) + healing, while using the setup in the videos above. Certainly seems balanced. Get on it, ArenaNet! If it's not obvious, I think ArenaNet has actually considered these things and I find it a bit ridiculous when players are suggesting what might be seen as over the top things without seemingly understanding what they have in the first place.

Again, this is in a lab environment. I said it in another thread. Choyas and sand sharks aren't tweeting about how OP these spirits are. It's the players that complain and I'm sure you've noticed even other classes have visited this forum commenting on how weak Renegade is. Players are just going to throw 1 fear mark and all those fancy numbers you've just calculated turns to 0. 0 damage done, 0 effectiveness, 0 energy for your efforts, and 0 Health because you're playing Renegade and the enemy team knows you're a free kill.

PS: Again, in relation to Icerazor's Ire and Chill. People often cite that the spirit is named Icerazor, as if that means it automatically must have Chill. Ever heard of experiencing a crippling cold? The Cripple condition suits it just fine. It doesn't have to use Chill to make sense. It becomes so cold that our foes struggle to move.

However you want to justify the result, it's not hard to see that(chill) was the design of the skill and it got scrapped for launch. Besides the name, the spirit was shooting white, icy projectiles during beta before the instagram overhaul. I mean, it even had the cold misty effect. Crippling cold? Uhhh, what comes before the "cripple" when this happens? The cold! What "cold" skill do we have in this game? Chill! I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you if you can pull off such mental gymnastics. It's clear to me, and to many others here that Icerazor was designed for Chill. Obviously, if you're not convinced, this won't change your mind but to those who didn't make it during the beta, here's Wooden Potatoe's showcase.

Icerazor starts @ 14m 46sec

[Set.7461]

@witcher.3197 said:The Spirits shouldn't be unkillable. Even if they are useless in PvP right now, they cover a much larger field than wells or shades, an area denial of that scale should have a counter. Maybe make them act like pets in PvE (so they take reduced damage) but don't change them for PvP/WvW.

Wells and shades also have 900 range while these spirits only have 600. So you suggest that they remain useless in PvP/WvW by keeping them this way?

[Stamen.9240]

@Blego.1859 said:i for one started to love it after a lot of testing ... and for a power spec not condi

I am going to say that I agree here. I'm not all the way through my toons on PoF, but I have found the Renegade so far to be the easiest progression through content using a power spec. Sure, my conditions are only ticking for a 100 here and there, but the self heals and the damage have made it fairly easy to navigate the new content. I miss the near perma-stability from my Firebrand in some fights, but it is manageable.

All in all, I think there are a ton of wasted skills and abilities in this elite -- stuff that just isn't viable anywhere. But for purely pouring out the damage, I haven't been disappointed.

[otto.5684]

@witcher.3197 said:

@wongdong.9162 said:My only issue with the spec is the legend abilities themselves. The spirits and what they do aren't the problem, but it's the fact that they cost a lot of energy and can be cc'd and killed rendering a wasted slot. At least ranger spirits can be blown up to provide a second utility before they die and go on cd. They are also very finicky in placement on different terrain. Platforms, stairs and other places where it isn't touching solid earth is a real pain when you need to switch legends for a second heal or damage ability.

The line itself and the f-skills I find useful. F-skills could use a lil more energy reduction for what they do imo, but they do what it says they do on the tin. Shortbow is fine and i have no problems with it. It feels very "reverse Ranger", but considering that the lead dev is Irenio, that doesn't surprise me.

The Spirits shouldn't be unkillable. Even if they are useless in PvP right now, they cover a much larger field than wells or shades, an area denial of that scale should have a counter. Maybe make them act like pets in PvE (so they take reduced damage) but don't change them for PvP/WvW.

I am okay if they reduce the area. To be honest though, renegade utilities do not offer area denial like shades or DH traps, which is why you have small area to begin with.

[Nightmare.1234]

The rev is just poorly designed from its base, so u notice flaws easy with elite specs. From a concept stand point it got an intresting theme and cool ideas. But while trying be different runs into lots of issues with its resource managment and build synergy/divisity.

Really needs some massive core rework for elite specs to stand a chance of shining.

[Skyroar.2974]

@Absconditus.6804, Unyielding Anguish does not works well with shortbow because it's a leap-into-melee skill, which is the exact opposite of what you want to successfully hit with Sevenshot.

@LucianTheAngelic.7054, I love the idea of giving a different combo field to each summon. It would have wonderful synergy with both Sevenshot and Echoing Eruptions, and it would be a lot of fun trying all kinds of different combinations. That's definitely something that could improve the elite spec a lot. It would also make Icerazor easier to balance with the chill trait: just have the chill come from the field at a 1 second interval, and not from the summon itself. Then, take away the cripple and tweak some numbers. Balance done!

@ all the arguments about balance:

"Here's an elite skill that adds damage each time you hit! And there's plenty of new multi-hit skills for you to combo them with! But oops. Balance. It won't work.""Here's an ice-themed summon for a profession that has great synergy with chill in condition builds. And the new elite spec just happens to be exactle designed for condition builds! But oops. Balance. It won't work.""Here's this exciting concept of arrows that come out of portals! But oops. Balance. We have to disable them when there's no sight of view."

What's the point of adding all those interesting concepts to a profession, only to disable each one of them because of balance? Renegade is full of misleading promises. It constantly teases us with interesting ideas, only to take them away from us because they would otherwise break the game's balance. It just shows how poorly thought-out or rushed this elite spec was.

[Sylvyn.4750]

@witcher.3197 said:

The Spirits shouldn't be unkillable. Even if they are useless in PvP right now, they cover a much larger field than wells or shades, an area denial of that scale should have a counter. Maybe make them act like pets in PvE (so they take reduced damage) but don't change them for PvP/WvW.

No one worth their salt runs Kalla as a legend in WvW group play...too much AOE damage and CC's for the utility skills to be useful, so if nothing changes from how it currently stands, you'll continue to see very few spirits in WvW.

[Ardent Heretic.8216]

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:@Absconditus.6804, Unyielding Anguish does not works well with shortbow because it's a leap-into-melee skill, which is the exact opposite of what you want to successfully hit with Sevenshot.

Devil's advocate here: There is some interesting synergy with shortbow, Sevenshot, and UA as a retreat. Dark field combos for some life steal, which complements the idea of retreating to survive. If they pursue you, there's a nasty pool of nasty around you. Yes, UA is significantly better for offensive pushes, but it has a place as a retreat (since you don't really have good alternatives).

[Dragon.8762]

Renegade damage is fine, its the utility that needs some buffs and slight energy cost reductions. The summons need stability on cast. This should either be baseline or you trait for it. This alone will go a very long way for renegade. The summons could also use more toughness or health. Either increase is fine.

Shortbow is ehh...If I wanted to actually do a lot of condition damage I'd use mace/axe and just keep switching legends, not weapons. Shortbow will only see as much use as hammer in pve. Running backwards and firing as some mob approaches.

All in all Renegade is a okay spec. But it doesn't help very much in areas where Rev really needed it. In my opinion, Rev can work in almost all content, but it doesn't really bring anything worth while that other classes can't already bring themselves. Rev needs a proper pvp spec desperately. Renegade is out of the question and herald is so unforgiving that only players with incredible skill should only ever touch this class if they have any hope in progressing in ranked matches.

For open world, almost anything can work. Even in fractals or high level fractals. In raids anything can work too. In WvW zergs, anything works so long as other people with better setups can pick up where you lack. For WvW roaming, your going to learn the hard way. For pvp, your going to learn the hard way. (2,355 hours on just Rev alone)

[starlinvf.1358]

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:I play with renegade because it's new, and purchasing a new expansion with new specs and not touching them would be unexciting. We've had base revenant + herald for 2 years. It always feels good to play with shiny new toys while they are new.

Even so, I spend more time on mace/ axe + mallyx than on shortbow + kalla, simply because the old skills are so much more enjoyable than the new ones.

I've found that the skills can't be used fast enough in the situations where it would have the most impact. I don't get that slow clunky feeling on hammer... and thats a weapon that is intentionally slow and clunky by design. The major difference is that Hammer has a big pay off if those skills hit, but huge risk to execute (rewards calculated attacks); while SB feels like it should be a kiting weapon, but relies on a specific, high cost rotation to get those attacks to land reliably. Ranger SB is also a Kitting weapon. And while its damage and utility is unimpressive, its usability is extremely high due to short cast times. That synergizes perfectly with Mid-range builds that are vulnerable to gap closers, and need the ability to disengage and reengage without breaking rhythm. In fact, thats basically the concept behind "Light On Your Feet", and would had been a good PvP trait if Shortbow had a better skill to set up for, and had synergy with a Melee Dive comp.

Mace/Axe fills all of those functions, with 2 gap closers, and a strong CC as an opener. And while it can't kite, it can control your half of the engagement so you can capitalize on openings. Renegade short bow is poor at kiting (which hurts in PvP), can't control a mobile target (hurts in pvp and wvw), and lacks the range to keep out of range of the front lines in WvW. Its great in open world PvP because most mobs aren't that mobile, or will sit around (which is why people hate Rolling Devils more then any other mob in HOT).

Given the nature of condi, and design of the skills...... Renegade SB attacks wouldn't be so bad if it either got its ranged extended (to 1000 or 1050), or fired off faster so you flip between offensive and defensive positioning. The Bombardment definitely needs more cast range or a wider strike area, and the Warband summons definitely need more resilience against interrupts (to compensate for their short duration). For the latter I would suggest native 50% duration reduction against hard CCs, and one of the traits offer retaliation on summon (like Mesmer phantasms) to help dish payback for bombing them in WvW.

[Absconditus.6804]

@Set.7461 said:

@Absconditus.6804 said:As I wrote in my previous response, practice certainly helps with leading shots.

You're practicing on big hitbox stationary heavy golems. I'm practicing on moving people which means I have to account for optimal distance, predicting where they're moving, trusting that they'll keep moving is said direction when I release it shot, and seeing it completely miss due to cast time, arrow velocity, and lag, change of direction after the shot, and combinations of everything.

Are you genuinely thinking those clips were from practice? How does it make sense to lead your shots on to a stationary target, while standing completely still at an ideal distance? Please, you can't be serious. Leading your shots would be taking into consideration what you are basically saying above; where do I target my shot, predicting where it's going to hit a moving target? Skill activation- and travel time and all that comes from "real world" practice. You get used to how long it takes for the arrows to travel from the moment you're activating the skill to it converging at its end point. You develop a habit of taking into account personal- and target movement. That's where practice comes into the picture. No, you won't always land all your shots, if any, and that's obviously why it is a very difficult skill shot in the first place. It'll be even harder to land optimally in structured PvP/roaming WvW of course. I'm not trying to dispute that. I'm saying; you get better at it the more you use it. And no, it's not perfect, it has a very wide spread initially that often suffer in cramped environments by arrows being eaten up by objects and walls. I've never said Renegade is perfect, I think it needs work, but I also think players are being far too unfair to the developer(s) in how they are addressing the Elite Specialization, as if there has been no thought gone into this one. I'm not necessarily trying to defend the developers, I just think there's far too many Revenant posts that doesn't seem to look at how things of the class actually ties together in various ways. Be that from a lack of knowledge, or perhaps a small desire to be potentially overpowered? I'm trying to discuss and shine a light on what we have. How there are actual synergy present where some say there are basically none.

As for the clips, they were clips captured in a stable environment to provide some footage on what I was addressing. The first one, titled "Huge investment?", showing that it would costs 14 Energy to use the two skills that you said would be a.. well, huge investment. I disagreed with that, as I don't find 14 Energy to be a huge sacrifice if it were to deal additional damage and heal, aside from also having the Combo Field: Fire trait. The clip also unintentionally serves to show the latter I guess, with Sevenshot triggering 5 stacks of Burning.

As for Icerazor's Ire having no Chill. Are you proposing (like others have a number of times) that it should have the potential to output a guaranteed 20 stacks of Torment when facing single targets, on top of the Torment it can already produce from Rampant Vex triggering?

Yes. Once again, you're practicing on A.I./stationary targets. I'm considering real people who knows how to dodge which can easily negate a good chuck of Icerazor's bolts. And they also know not to stand in the middle of the field. When you're in PvE-land and you see a big red circle under your feet, do you just stand there? Of course not. We should have utilities that actually do damage instead of being a little bit stronger than Precision Strikes which costs less energy and more reliable(yes, never thought I'd say that).

And again, what makes you think this is practice? Obviously a player can avoid a large chunk of pretty much all kinds of punishment, unless they are being crowd controlled by yourself, your team member(s) or a combination of both. Hypothetically, what if you were to run Kalla/Mallyx and do Icerazor's Ire followed immediately by a legend swap to throw down Unyielding Anguish on to an enemy that's being crowd controlled by an ally (and yourself)? If both skills did Chill, combined with Rampant Vex, that enemy could be looking at some seriously painful stacks of Torment rather quickly. I personally can honestly see some reason behind why it probably doesn't do Chill, and I don't think Chill instead of Cripple is the right way to go in order to resolve any issues of Renegade feeling a bit underpowered – regardless of skill naming conventions and how you read into those.

Anyways, the second clip shows an example of how many stacks of Torment that Icerazor's Rage is capable of producing purely from Rampant Vex and our easily attained 100% Critical Chance, in an ideal situation. In that specific case, when luck was on my side, 13 stacks. Yes, I know, you don't need to point it out, it's not always going to be 13 stacks, that's actually going to be somewhat rare. It is also of course highly unlikely to be landing all of its hits in PvP, I know that. But it can force a reaction in your opponent. As a side note; Renegade is obviously (to me at least) not meant to be a duelist if you plan on running Kalla utilities. You need to at least have one more player with you, so that you can in tandem work together and attempt to control the battle area and force reactions while using the spirits.

Soulcleave's Summit does also technically work with our summons, as they are as aforementioned, extensions of us. It simply does not work with Icerazor's Ire the same way it doesn't work with Sevenshot, since that would be 20 hits triggering it in a very short period of time. Again, I can see the balance there from the points I tried to make above. It does however, works with Darkrazor's Daring as can be seen in the following clip.

Honestly, the stoic in me thinks this is a bug due to the tooltip but I hope it stays.

Well it doesn't work on anything but our own spirits benefiting only ourselves, since they are technically extensions of us. (Luckily not sharing the same health pool.) So I personally think it is intentional, and I too hope it stays, as I like the mechanic of being able to trigger Critical Chance effects through the use of the spirits.

But sure, I can certainly imagine comboing Soulcleave's Summit with Icerazor's Ire (with it having Chill instead of Cripple), providing the potential for a whopping 8200 physical damage + 70455 Torment damage (20 guaranteed stacks from it doing Chill and triggering Abyssal Chill, plus let's say 13 stacks from Rampant Vex like in the clip above, over the course of 7 seconds – on a stationary target) + 9100 Life Siphon Damage + 6150 Poison damage (2 stacks from Venom Enhancement over the course of 10 seconds) + 9360 Bleed damage (3 stacks from Superior Sigil of Earth triggering 3 times over the course of 10 seconds) + healing, while using the setup in the videos above. Certainly seems balanced. Get on it, ArenaNet! If it's not obvious, I think ArenaNet has actually considered these things and I find it a bit ridiculous when players are suggesting what might be seen as over the top things without seemingly understanding what they have in the first place.

Again, this is in a lab environment. I said it in another thread. Choyas and sand sharks aren't tweeting about how OP these spirits are. It's the players that complain and I'm sure you've noticed even other classes have visited this forum commenting on how weak Renegade is. Players are just going to throw 1 fear mark and all those fancy numbers you've just calculated turns to 0. 0 damage done, 0 effectiveness, 0 energy for your efforts, and 0 Health because you're playing Renegade and the enemy team knows you're a free kill.

If all it would take is one fear mark to completely shut you down, then you might need to step back and consider that you are doing things wrong. Clearly you are placing things far too close to one another in that scenario. You could throw Icerazor behind the enemy, Soulcleave a bit behind yourself and position yourself at the edge of its radius. But yes, I agree that you can't write out exactly what will happen in a PvP situation, as PvP outcomes are fluid and unpredictable. You can however see how good the potential for something is. And.. everything doesn't revolves around structured PvP either. As I mentioned above, I also do not think Renegade and Kalla in particular is necessarily intended for dueling purposes. If you move/guard together with an ally, the spirits may become a bit more effective. I already find them to be relatively usable in World vs. World to be honest. That's not to say I don't think they need improvements(!); such as us being able to put them on to any surface, up on or down from walls. Shorter cast times. Giving them some innate Stability could help them, perhaps Protection for that matter. That they each are their own respective Combo Field would make them more interesting. Perhaps they could even be allowed placement out at 900 range. In some ways, it feels as if Renegade was in parts intended for World vs. World. Citadel Bombardment is as I've mentioned before quite effective in the midst of an enemy zerg. Short Bow is pretty great at tagging a huge number of enemies (though the individual damage could perhaps be a bit higher). Spirits remain difficult to wield in the midst of the clashes however.

PS: Again, in relation to Icerazor's Ire and Chill. People often cite that the spirit is named

Ice

razor, as if that means it automatically must have Chill. Ever heard of experiencing a crippling cold? The Cripple condition suits it just fine. It doesn't have to use Chill to make sense. It becomes so cold that our foes struggle to move.

However you want to justify the result, it's not hard to see that(chill) was the design of the skill and it got scrapped for launch. Besides the name, the spirit was shooting white, icy projectiles during beta before the instagram overhaul. I mean, it even had the cold misty effect. Crippling cold? Uhhh, what comes before the "cripple" when this happens? The cold! What "cold" skill do we have in this game? Chill! I'm not going to waste any more time arguing with you if you can pull off such mental gymnastics. It's clear to me, and to many others here that Icerazor was designed for Chill. Obviously, if you're not convinced, this won't change your mind but to those who didn't make it during the beta, here's Wooden Potatoe's showcase.

It's a blue spirit now too if you want to go that road. The theme of it is obviously that it is ice, cold, chill. That they have tried it with Chill I am almost certain of. But I don't think it needs Chill to keep the name. That the "crippling cold" is making it hard for our opponents to move with the use of Cripple can due to balance purposes work fine as well. I still think that's fair enough without saying it requires mental gymnastics. One of the first things that came to my mind as I shrugged upon inspecting the skill and seeing it doing Cripple. I trust they have tested it with both. I'd rather border towards saying it's shortsighted to say that it must have Chill because it has Ice in it's name. By all means, what would you name it if it were intended to have razor somewhere in it's name and you were to use Cripple? Cripplerazor? I am sure that would get some social justice warriors fired up. Oh, and it's not that bad to have Cripple as an additional cover condition versus cleanses either.

@DiogoSilva.7089 said:@Absconditus.6804, Unyielding Anguish does not works well with shortbow because it's a leap-into-melee skill, which is the exact opposite of what you want to successfully hit with Sevenshot.

Well you can use it at your feet right as enemies are pressuring you. You can use it to leap away from enemies. Or you can use it to leap-into-melee. You have choices. It provides you with additional chances to heal through Lifestealing and can function as crowd control to create distance between yourself and your target(s). Note that this is obviously more efficient in PvE, and somewhat in WvW in a zerg vs. zerg environment. I wouldn't bank on it functioning as well in structured PvP, though you can use it to zone out opponents briefly.

[Set.7461]

You seem to be hung up on the semantics of "practice." You can infer whatever you want from my post yet you hang onto that word while completely missing the point. Sevenshot is not a good skill in it's current state and no amount of "leading" your shots will make an impactful difference in PvP. You throw PvE scenarios as if people are having trouble killing dumb A.I. My issue with spirits have always been about PvP/WvW. The spirits can definitely use a buff, we can agree on that, but to preach about hypothetical scenarios on effectively using them is not helpful.

My comment on marks was hyperbole, I'll admit but if you can pressure mid as a Renegade with a scourge on the other team, you won't come out on top considering equal skill. The point I was trying to make which went over your head is that it takes so much effort to use your spirits. Cast time, low impact, CC-able. The CC in this game is crazy and 1 mark can and will negate your whole class. But let's say we follow your perfect Renegade scenario. You spread them apart and a scourge only CC 1 spirit. Not to bad right? A Sand Savant shade which covers the whole point, followed by F4 fear(which fears at the necro's location too) will disable the rest.

Honestly, I don't think people are mad that Icerazor has cripple instead of chill if it was due to balance. The main issue was it was clearly designed for chill but ANET decided to ship out a shitty version before we can see for ourselves. You are claiming it as potentially OP but you're using lab scenarios considering it's maximum potential. Let's see what we have. In it's shipped state, it's a filler skill which is fine for any other class. Since we don't have the luxury of swapping utilities like other classes, we're stuck with it and have to ask what is this utility good for? Damage? A single precision strikes does the same, maybe more on lower CD/less energy. CC? Again, PS gives chill instead of cripple. Zoning? Cripple is a very weak CC that is easily negated by a single dodge. Vuln? Again, requires your foe to literally stand still for 6 seconds in an area to get the full 20 stacks. All of these things(damage, soft cc) is negated if there is another target in the circle which means mesmer's clones/ranger's pet negate it just by existing. Meanwhile Herald's Burst of Strength can apply the same 20 stacks while doing more damage to 5 targets in an AOE cone in 1 second costing only 2 upkeep(virtually free)!

Let's take away chill from Icerazor because of the potential. Let's make spirits have health and allow them to be CC because potential. Cast time on cast time because potential. Throw in some random alacrity. Why? Fuck if I know. Shortbow having no defense? This have been covered extensively. Your post is a great example of ANET's development of Renegade. Balance was done mathematically based on the maximum, optimal scenario. Things look great on paper but when you take him to battle, all he has is a pretty F-skill and annoying arrows that misses or tickles your opponent.

I like your optimism but we're discussing what the class IS, not what it potentially COULD BE. Sure, it can pull out great numbers in a perfect world. Sure you can proc 7 burn combo finishers while dazing and crippling your foes. Sure you can make it work in blobs(not hard with any class TBH). The odds of them happening in-game is extremely low and the majority of users agree. Simply put, Renegade IS the most poorly designed elite spec bar none. You're doing a disservice to people when you think you're helping. Nobody in PvP thinks Kalla is competitive, let alone viable. It's not even listed in the major elite spec poll. That's how bad it is.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/9250/most-broken-pof-elite-spec/p1

[Amityel.5324]

short answer to your topic question.....YES IT IS

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

Put it this way, on the recent Poll Thread in the Pvp forums on which PoF Elite Spec is the most OP, the Rengade wasn’t even listed.

On top of that with all the No Valid Path bugs with placing the Warbands, and other bugs, synergy issues and lack of concept, the Renegade is very Underwhelming.

[Sarte.7158]

It is always coming back to the point that the general idea of Revenant and Renegade are really alluring with the mist theme and legends weaved in.The execution is another case though, which is very disappointing and will frustrate alot of players, across any game mode, even in pve.

There is just not that much fun after you exhausted the part where you were drawn to the class based off the concept. Game play lacks flow, even if you are enthusiast ofthe stance dance style of play , it feels disjoined

And that is sad truth

[gannondorf.7628]

It's not really Renegade it's the revenant profession in a whole. This class has not pass the beta phase yet (2 years later).

@drgast.1469 said:It definitely needs some work. Extremely underwhelming for me compared to herald.

That's because herald IS revenant. The whole class was designed toward this elite spec and we are seeing the results of this terrible decision (all others legends are bad and don't fufill the role they have. Jalis fail to tank, Malyx has no identity and his stuck beetween Something like boon corruption, condition eater and condition dealer etc...). The profession need a massive core rework (legends utilities and traits) to be even capable of do Something. But they don't seems to be hurry.

[Lahmia.2193]

I adore Renegade. It filled in all the missing aspects on base condi rev, which is all I could ask for from it.

[Buran.3796]

@Lahmia.2193 said:I adore Renegade. It filled in all the missing aspects on base condi rev, which is all I could ask for from it.

In which way fills the missing aspect of condition cleanses, stability access or raw sustain? I do feel that condi Herald is better at PvP than condi Rev, and both of them fall below the power Herald.

[Lahmia.2193]

@Buran.3796 said:

@Lahmia.2193 said:I adore Renegade. It filled in all the missing aspects on base condi rev, which is all I could ask for from it.

In which way fills the missing aspect of condition cleanses, stability access or raw sustain? I do feel that condi Herald is better at PvP than condi Rev, and both of them fall below the power Herald.

From a pve perspective. I don't play pvp, only wvw/pve.

[Buran.3796]

@Lahmia.2193 said:

From a pve perspective. I don't play pvp, only wvw/pve.

Ok, then from a PvE perspective I'll say that the balance patch from May 16 is what made condi Revenant suitable to raids: Renegade isn't but a moderate buff in numbers.

[tenryuta.2014]

@Einlanzer.1627 said:So far, the only thing that's really good about Renegade is that it fills out the Rev condi build with a viable second weapon/legend that it previously lacked. But, both the legend itself and the shortbow feel weak enough that I rarely swap to them and just continue to use M/A and Mallyx, and to make matters worse the F skills are in competition with the weapon and utility skills and therefore not that useful.

Altogether, it's kind of a problem and a no-brainer why Renegade tends to be considered the worst of the new elites.

i avoid condi like the plague

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vlAQBeexMy1MU2M22MY3Mw3MW0Uq/e8IXy1kIKui2FIAaAA-jZA6AAQZAA

we can peak 250% CD quite nicely, and im off to go broke from retweaking my gear again:(