Scourge is Broken in WvW, Please balance it

[Ragnarox.9601]

I hope ppl who defending this brokens specs as scourge and spellbreaker get really lots of tissues cause it will be tears raining whole day when nerfhammer comes.

[Swamurabi.7890]

I think that if thief, ranger or engineer ever get a meta zerg build that most players wouldn't even play it because they are all stuck in their current meta zerg classes.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Chris.3290 said:Scourge heavy groups are easily counterable, it's just that too many people are too lazy to take off their PvE Marauder's gear and move beyond HoT boonshare to actually get something done.

Step 1: Find spellbreakers who are actually good and have them rotate WoD. You just nullified the Firebrands.Step 2: Rediscover CC skills. It used to be a cornerstone of the game but Boonshare made people too lazy.Step 3: Condition mitigation, again used to be a cornerstone. Dust off your Warrior's warhorn and Lemongrass Soup potsStep 4: Perhaps the old mindset of just putting bodies on a tag isn't a winning strat anymore. Running an organized composition has never been rewarded much in WvW in the past; but the way Scourges work kind of makes that a losing strat. Perhaps more organization and less screaming for more people before leaving spawn.

^ this

Yes scourge may need to be toned down (just a bit as they can easy become useless), however Scourge (as is) seems to keep blobs on their toes and make commanders actually think of strats based on who is in their squad. Bring old strats back, old compositions back, old consumables/builds back. It sucks to get rekt, however its a breath of fresh air even talking about these old items/builds/strats. Blobbing is the reason I stopped commanding. When strats became useless and became a mindless zergfest. This may be a (sort of) blessing in disguise.

This I can get behind.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Ragnarox.9601 said:I hope ppl who defending this brokens specs as scourge and spellbreaker get really lots of tissues cause it will be tears raining whole day when nerfhammer comes.

I am actually looking forward to the balances. I started playing scourge recently and believe they need a bit of a balance. Also once I keep beating people they can finally start blaming themselves.

[Seffen.2875]

@momophily.3814 said:What i'm saying is that scourge is superior to everything else when in a side-by-side. They need to be balanced out with everyone else

But why is Scourge so much stronger?It has a shit ton of dmg and a medium Support. And beside that? The defense of the Scourge is a kitten joke. Especially in large scale fights.

They have literally not a single good escape. Once you catch them they are done. And with backline ele becoming a Thing suddenly it is time for the Focus Party to shine again. A scourge is so incredibly easy to burst down.

Therefore yes i may Sound like a kitten hole. But you Sound like someone not beeing able to adapt your playstyle.

If you cant rush the frontline due to Scourge and Spellbreaker bursting you down go to the backline. Burst the scourges down and then feast on the ones left over.And concerning the condition spam: A good firebrand has no Problem with first resisting the condition and then removing the full stacks. Of course when you mindlessly spam out your remove you will end up dead.

Edit: Somehow broke the Quote.

[Seffen.2875]

@Chris.3290 said:Scourge heavy groups are easily counterable, it's just that too many people are too lazy to take off their PvE Marauder's gear and move beyond HoT boonshare to actually get something done.

Step 1: Find spellbreakers who are actually good and have them rotate WoD. You just nullified the Firebrands.Step 2: Rediscover CC skills. It used to be a cornerstone of the game but Boonshare made people too lazy.Step 3: Condition mitigation, again used to be a cornerstone. Dust off your Warrior's warhorn and Lemongrass Soup potsStep 4: Perhaps the old mindset of just putting bodies on a tag isn't a winning strat anymore. Running an organized composition has never been rewarded much in WvW in the past; but the way Scourges work kind of makes that a losing strat. Perhaps more organization and less screaming for more people before leaving spawn.

This!! I also want to state, that it is not the real Elitist's who cry about conditions. It is those who Claim to be so but get butthurt the second they have to put real effort in winning.

[DemonSeed.3528]

Remember ghost trapper condi thief? That was way weaker crap compared to this, let's see the same treatment and neuter it ;)

[Junkpile.7439]

@Chris.3290 said:Scourge heavy groups are easily counterable, it's just that too many people are too lazy to take off their PvE Marauder's gear and move beyond HoT boonshare to actually get something done.

Step 1: Find spellbreakers who are actually good and have them rotate WoD. You just nullified the Firebrands.Step 2: Rediscover CC skills. It used to be a cornerstone of the game but Boonshare made people too lazy.Step 3: Condition mitigation, again used to be a cornerstone. Dust off your Warrior's warhorn and Lemongrass Soup potsStep 4: Perhaps the old mindset of just putting bodies on a tag isn't a winning strat anymore. Running an organized composition has never been rewarded much in WvW in the past; but the way Scourges work kind of makes that a losing strat. Perhaps more organization and less screaming for more people before leaving spawn.Berserkker gear is PvE gear, marauder is tank gear.

[momophily.3814]

The problem with the counter arguments in this thread is: that thief, spell beaker, rangers, and engineers arn't defining the current meta.

Stop and think about why you're seeing 17 scourges in a group. Have you even seen 17 of any class before in comp? Regularly? 20 players and 17 are running the same build?

From a previous post, that team of a ranger-thief-mesmer isn't a broken mechanic in WvW, it actualy takes coordination and is useful in a limited number of scenarios. It works well. And takes multiple classes working together to accomplish something meaningful and effective.

17 scourges together don't even need to talk to each other. aimlessly following is extremely effective and unriveled. Also, do you have a brand new play that wants to run? No problem, put them on a scourge. They don't even need to read half the tooltips to be effect, just face roll the key board and good players die.

You're right folks, i clearly see a balanced and well thought out class when i look at scourge.....

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@momophily.3814 said:They don't even need to read half the tooltips to be effect, just face roll the key board and good players die.

Im sorry but if "good" players die to facerolling the keyboard, then they are not that good. "Good" players would understand the capabilities of scourges as well as themselves and will change their playstyle or change something with their build to fight it. This is what "Good" players do. They adapt, learn, change.

Im not defending the power of a scourge with this as I agree there needs some balance (albeit they need to be careful on how they balance it as to not make it useless and weak), however I am just pointing this out.

[godfat.2604]

People are saying Scourges are easy to burst down. For a single Scourge, yes, but for a bunch of Scourges? I don't think so. Single life barrier is weak, but multiple barriers stacking together are not. I often ended up with 10k+ life barrier, on top of tanky condi stats, and I don't think that's easy to spike at all. Keep in mind a horde of Scourges also deal ridiculous amount of conditions and corrupting ridiculous amount of boons, including stability. How are you going to take all that damage and cc while spiking through 10k+ barrier? Bombing from range? Pew pew skills are mostly just single target, and even if one or two Scourges were taken down, the other Scourges would already be within the range ready for the real AoE condi corruption bombs.

The most funny thing is, in BWE people were already warning Anet that Scourge was way over tuned. They listened and toned it down a lot. Sand Savant targets went from 10 down to 5. There were other nerf which I don't remember. It's still overpowered. I don't know how this could end well without pissing Necromancer players off in other modes, unless they really start splitting skills, of course.

[Swamurabi.7890]

@momophily.3814 said:The problem with the counter arguments in this thread is: that thief, spell beaker, rangers, and engineers arn't defining the current meta.

Stop and think about why you're seeing 17 scourges in a group. Have you even seen 17 of any class before in comp? Regularly? 20 players and 17 are running the same build?

From a previous post, that team of a ranger-thief-mesmer isn't a broken mechanic in WvW, it actualy takes coordination and is useful in a limited number of scenarios. It works well. And takes multiple classes working together to accomplish something meaningful and effective.

17 scourges together don't even need to talk to each other. aimlessly following is extremely effective and unriveled. Also, do you have a brand new play that wants to run? No problem, put them on a scourge. They don't even need to read half the tooltips to be effect, just face roll the key board and good players die.

You're right folks, i clearly see a balanced and well thought out class when i look at scourge.....

but 20 guardians in a 50 man squad is OK?

[Theandil.6045]

Trololo Marauder Deadeye d/p+Sbow thief here...

I only answer to main topic, due to I'm lazy to read whole forum topic.

1. In 50 v 50 fight they are FOR SURE broken, nothing kill you fast as ¬35 Condi necros, when you clean all condies in 1milisecond you have other ones, or you are dead.
2. Well in 1v1 it really depends on build and how skilled you are but. You need to be prepared you have enough condi cleaners. And after when you clean all condis, fight is piece of cake.

[Reaper Alim.4176]

@Swamurabi.7890 said:

@momophily.3814 said:The problem with the counter arguments in this thread is: that thief, spell beaker, rangers, and engineers arn't defining the current meta.

Stop and think about why you're seeing 17 scourges in a group. Have you even seen 17 of any class before in comp? Regularly? 20 players and 17 are running the same build?

From a previous post, that team of a ranger-thief-mesmer isn't a broken mechanic in WvW, it actualy takes coordination and is useful in a limited number of scenarios. It works well. And takes multiple classes working together to accomplish something meaningful and effective.

17 scourges together don't even need to talk to each other. aimlessly following is extremely effective and unriveled. Also, do you have a brand new play that wants to run? No problem, put them on a scourge. They don't even need to read half the tooltips to be effect, just face roll the key board and good players die.

You're right folks, i clearly see a balanced and well thought out class when i look at scourge.....

but 20 guardians in a 50 man squad is OK?

Apparently it's is to these guys.

GW2PlayersLogic :lol:

[thrdeye.1028]

@momophily.3814 said:The problem with the counter arguments in this thread is: that thief, spell beaker, rangers, and engineers arn't defining the current meta.

Stop and think about why you're seeing 17 scourges in a group. Have you even seen 17 of any class before in comp? Regularly? 20 players and 17 are running the same build?

From a previous post, that team of a ranger-thief-mesmer isn't a broken mechanic in WvW, it actualy takes coordination and is useful in a limited number of scenarios. It works well. And takes multiple classes working together to accomplish something meaningful and effective.

17 scourges together don't even need to talk to each other. aimlessly following is extremely effective and unriveled. Also, do you have a brand new play that wants to run? No problem, put them on a scourge. They don't even need to read half the tooltips to be effect, just face roll the key board and good players die.

You're right folks, i clearly see a balanced and well thought out class when i look at scourge.....

Scourges are defining the current meta because they directly counter the previous meta. People are going to bring an AoE boon hate spec to counter a boon sharing death ball strategy. It couldn't have turned out any other way so long as Scourge was capable of fulfilling its intended role. That's not to say Scourge doesn't need some balancing; it at least needs the Shade stacking bug fixed and an increased ramp up time but it's not so simple as doing a headcount and whacking the popular class with the nerfbat.

[Chris.3290]

@thrdeye.1028 said:

Scourges are defining the current meta because they directly counter the previous meta. People are going to bring an AoE boon hate spec to counter a boon sharing death ball strategy. It couldn't have turned out any other way so long as Scourge was capable of fulfilling its intended role. That's not to say Scourge doesn't need some balancing; it at least needs the Shade stacking bug fixed and an increased ramp up time but it's not so simple as doing a headcount and whacking the popular class with the nerfbat.

Exactly. 80% of the complaints are people who are pissed they need new gear and have to change from the boonshare/boonball meta that has been a thing since HoT was released.

Also, of course Scourges are overpowered. I've been playing GW since release of GW1 in May 2005. There is one constant to their balance strategy, that has been so since day one. They ALWAYS buff necros, and necros are ALWAYS overpowered.

If you haven't been paying attention to this, you have no one to blame but yourself.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

This is basically a problem with an easy answer/counter; more ranged. I play a reaper still, and the reason I don't play scourge is people simply just walk around my shades rendering my build next to useless. Scourge also no longer has the second HP bar; they are actually quite easy to kill. I play a full tanky condition build.. your typical build people complain about, and a deadeye nearly can nearly kill me before I even know where they are. 2 deadeyes? forget it.

Ranged gets shunned upon, but you know what, groups need them, especially if your group either refuses or doesn't know how to walk around shades. If that is the case, put more emphasis on ranged in the group to take out the scourge, simple as that.

This game has counters, and hard counters. A hard counter to toughness/vitality melee builds is conditions, especially coming from necros. A hard counter to necros would be ranged. Players just have to learn to play within the scope, and commanders or group leaders have little choice to except it if they want their group to succeed.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Chris.3290 said:

@thrdeye.1028 said:

Scourges are defining the current meta because they directly counter the previous meta. People are going to bring an AoE boon hate spec to counter a boon sharing death ball strategy. It couldn't have turned out any other way so long as Scourge was capable of fulfilling its intended role. That's not to say Scourge doesn't need some balancing; it at least needs the Shade stacking bug fixed and an increased ramp up time but it's not so simple as doing a headcount and whacking the popular class with the nerfbat.

Exactly. 80% of the complaints are people who are pissed they need new gear and have to change from the boonshare/boonball meta that has been a thing since HoT was released.

Also, of course Scourges are overpowered. I've been playing GW since release of GW1 in May 2005. There is one constant to their balance strategy, that has been so since day one. They ALWAYS buff necros, and necros are ALWAYS overpowered.

If you haven't been paying attention to this, you have no one to blame but yourself.

People must adapt. The meta will change, always.

[Ravezaar.4951]

The skill-less masses always cry for Nerfs when some new danger appear on the Horizon

[momophily.3814]

Ok let’s change the language used in this discussion, I think a lot of us are getting wrapped around the axel (on both sides) when we consider specific examples… let’s not do that. Let’s try the big picture discussion.

(in this discussion) We shouldn’t care about how a class/spec performs in a 1v1 or 1v2 scenario, in WvW you have large scale fights because of strength in numbers. The typical fight is with a group of 15-40 players per side, that’s the frame of reference. And each will ideally operated in parties of 5 players within the larger 15-40 player group. How the meta operates in that setting is what we are talking about. Not, how you can win in a 1v1 with or against a Scourge. A Scourge roamer isn't breaking the game.

Looking at the previous boon share meta everyone seems to reference: The defining attribute was a two Guardian per party base. Why?... Stability share, or to ensure all 5 members received stability (Stab) when in an engagement; with two guardians rotating for optimal levels of Stab. It also contributed to the groups Condi cleanse. But if you took a 5 Guardian party, you had a much weaker force then if you had 2 Guardian in a diverse party. Because the Guardian was a poor source of heals, and a sub-par source of damage. You had a point of diminishing returns. It was the part of the team , and contributed to your groups sustain.

To move into post-PoF, we can look at the Guardian, Fire Brand (FB). Now you have a significantly greater source of Boon Share in the F3 tome, a substantial source of healing and Condi cleanse in the F2, and a significant Condi damage burst in F1. However, it has a system of checks and balances that only allows each player to perform one tome at a time. If you run 3 FB in a party you can have 33%condi damage, 33% heal/clears, and 33% boons (stab). Or 100% Condi damage, 0% heal/clears, and 0% boons. Or any other mix that will create a ratio of offense and defense (support). Meaning you can’t have everything at once, at full strength. Again diminishing returns and the need to diversify with other classes. And to stay objective, the F1 probably need a nerf as well.

With the current Scourge meta in WvW, where is the diminishing returns? Where are the checks and balances? Where is the encouragement for diversity in other classes?

There isn’t any, a party of 5 scourges together doesn’t have any substantial tradeoffs. Now that's not to suggest they don’t have counters, they have some. But a 5 Scourge party has high damage, high sustain (Condi clear/barrier), and the ability to mitigate your opponents defenses (boon flips). 100% damage, 100% sustain, 100% mitigation across the parties comp with no real loss in capability. Scourge scales indefinitely in a WvW raid comp until you hit the server cap. It has no need to take other classes with it. That is why it is too strong.

Now I’m not advocating that it be nerfed into the ground. NO. But it also needs to sacrifice something and create a need for another class to fill. That is balance in this game. It is simply too good by itself. For example: you should be able to boon flip and give barrier while in a support role; but you should sacrifice extreme damage while you have that capability. Likewise, you should be able to do high damage, but not while negating your opponent’s defenses. The fact that it can do all 3 simultaneously, is why it is broken in larger group play.

[Pensadora.9478]

That is a really objective summary of the difference. There is no risk being required for the reward, no thoughtful trade-off required. Run TB gear, mash buttons, kill all before you and never have to dip into your core health pool. This is awesome for new players to WvW because they don't have to know much other than where their F keys are, and they can kill and collect bags. But, as for the rest of us... well... hope there will be people sticking around cause this has all the makings of a repeat of the post-HOT exodus.

[thrdeye.1028]

@momophily.3814 said:With the current Scourge meta in WvW, where is the diminishing returns? Where are the checks and balances? Where is the encouragement for diversity in other classes?

There isn’t any, a party of 5 scourges together doesn’t have any substantial tradeoffs. Now that's not to suggest they don’t have counters, they have some. But a 5 Scourge party has high damage, high sustain (Condi clear/barrier), and the ability to mitigate your opponents defenses (boon flips). 100% damage, 100% sustain, 100% mitigation across the parties comp with no real loss in capability. Scourge scales indefinitely in a WvW raid comp until you hit the server cap. It has no need to take other classes with it. That is why it is too strong.

Now I’m not advocating that it be nerfed into the ground. NO. But it also needs to sacrifice something and create a need for another class to fill. That is balance in this game. It is simply too good by itself. For example: you should be able to boon flip and give barrier while in a support role; but you should sacrifice extreme damage while you have that capability. Likewise, you should be able to do high damage, but not while negating your opponent’s defenses. The fact that it can do all 3 simultaneously, is why it is broken in larger group play.

A 5 Scourge party has limited mobility, limited access to boons and even less ability to share them, vulnerability to CC, limited ability to engage beyond 900 range and none past 1200, and no active damage mitigation other than barrier. They also rely heavily on the generation of Life Force to be effective. In other words, all the classic weaknesses of Necro but without Life Shroud. I fully believe that Scourge can do too much with too few skills, but you're focusing on what they're good at and overlooking what they're not good at. Like you said, they do have counters and part of the solution to the Scourge problem is the use of those counters. My concern is that Anet announced Scourge nerfs and some people seem to have taken that as a cue to continue blobbing into the Shades because the balance patch will make that viable.

[SkyShroud.2865]

@thrdeye.1028 said:

@momophily.3814 said:With the current Scourge meta in WvW, where is the diminishing returns? Where are the checks and balances? Where is the encouragement for diversity in other classes?

There isn’t any, a party of 5 scourges together doesn’t have any substantial tradeoffs. Now that's not to suggest they don’t have counters, they have some. But a 5 Scourge party has high damage, high sustain (Condi clear/barrier), and the ability to mitigate your opponents defenses (boon flips). 100% damage, 100% sustain, 100% mitigation across the parties comp with no real loss in capability. Scourge scales indefinitely in a WvW raid comp until you hit the server cap. It has no need to take other classes with it. That is why it is too strong.

Now I’m not advocating that it be nerfed into the ground. NO. But it also needs to sacrifice something and create a need for another class to fill. That is balance in this game. It is simply too good by itself. For example: you should be able to boon flip and give barrier while in a support role; but you should sacrifice extreme damage while you have that capability. Likewise, you should be able to do high damage, but not while negating your opponent’s defenses. The fact that it can do all 3 simultaneously, is why it is broken in larger group play.

A 5 Scourge party has limited mobility, limited access to boons and even less ability to share them, vulnerability to CC, limited ability to engage beyond 900 range and none past 1200, and no active damage mitigation other than barrier. They also rely heavily on the generation of Life Force to be effective. In other words, all the classic weaknesses of Necro but without Life Shroud. I fully believe that Scourge can do too much with too few skills, but you're focusing on what they're good at and overlooking what they're not good at. Like you said, they do have counters and part of the solution to the Scourge problem is the use of those counters. My concern is that Anet announced Scourge nerfs and some people seem to have taken that as a cue to continue blobbing into the Shades because the balance patch will make that viable.

Nah, those limitation is only if is purely a party made up by scourge. Now, scourge is the main firepower and then we have firebrand supporting that main firepower while having spellbreaker for that golden dome, not to forget we only need a few ele for that cc. In other words, large scale fights always end up as pirateship since pushing into it, especially one contain people with some brains to prop their WOE and firebrand that use their F3 and F2 is no different from suicidal. Frontline play is no more, is just massive firepower and supporting those.

[boolah.1325]

Don't nerf scourge.. scourge already has limited defense and mobility. Nerf: resistance, defy pain, distort, Winds of Disenchantment, Coalescence of Ruin, Firebrand's fire output, Weaver's raw dps output, stealth, ETC

Necro always gets hit with the nerf bat to the point it's just unplayable.

[thrdeye.1028]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Nah, those limitation is only if is purely a party made up by scourge. Now, scourge is the main firepower and then we have firebrand supporting that main firepower while having spellbreaker for that golden dome. In other words, large scale fights always end up as pirateship since pushing into it, especially one contain people with some brains to prop their WOE and firebrand that use their F3 and F2 is no different from suicidal.

I was responding to the specific claim that a party of 5 Scourge wouldn't be lacking anything substantial and therefore an ideal strategy would be for an entire server to bring only Scourges to a fight, leaving no room for any other spec.