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"In practice that may or may not be the case and may be more a matter of opinion than anything."

That's incorrect.

Software doesn't care if the hardware is overclocked or not. There's a reason it's called OVERclocking. The hardware is being run beyond it's design limits. Yes, this often works; but over time components can degrade due to being run at specs they aren't designed to run at. Heating and cooling cycles add to the issue. The game doesn't know or care about this.

Once the overclock begins to fail, the hardware starts producing corrupt data. The processor (GPU) in this case hangs because the code it was running is now random garbage. Windows detects this and resets the GPU due to TDR (Timout Detection & Recovery).

The fact that down-clocking the GPU fixes the problem tells you that the hardware is failing at the higher clock speed. The game doesn't measure, know or care about the GPU speed. Now, is it the card itself or another piece of hardware in the system? One thing is for sure - it IS NOT the software "refusing" or "being sensitive" to working at the higher clock rate.

That is not how software works. If the software runs fine at one GPU frequency, but not another - it is not the software that is failing. Unfortunately, in order to determine the exact hardware component that is failing, you need to substitute parts. Software testing is not perfect and it's often not reliable.

I have two sticks of RAM in the junk pile that will pass Memtest without a problem - until you tap on them with a screwdriver - then they start throwing errors or freeze the system. Yes, they are physically intermittent and they were pain to track down in a friend's computer that had four sticks of RAM in it.

I wish you and DeWolfe good luck in solving these problems.

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I'll back up what abomally said with my personal anecdote.

I've had a graphics glitch where a polygon on an item/character would suddenly throw colored streaks across my screen. I could reset it by reducing graphics to best performance then going back to my original setting. No amount of game updates, driver updates, OS reinstalls would fix it, nor would other games or software/stress testing reproduce it. My GPU had a very aggressive factory overclock that was known to be at the limit of what that specific chip could achieve. I've updated to a new GPU last month... guess what... the glitch hasn't come back since.

Another point about overheating. Not every component in your computer that is heat sensitive actually has a temp sensor on it. My old GPU for example, never overheated. But the glitch happened more often on hot days. I've long suspected that some other component was overheating; GRAM or VRMs maybe... don't have a thermal camera so I could never prove it.

In my experience, RAM is another component prone to give strange errors in specific circumstances that is hard to diagnose and reproduce. The hours of my life I've wasted troubleshooting with software, only to fix the problem by removing the offending stick.

My point is, I agree with abomally in that certain hardware problems are very, very hard to pinpoint.

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It may be totally unrelated, but I ran into a similar issue. Guild Wars 2 (and only that game, others ran fine) would lock up. Luckily the machine itself didn't power off, but it would freeze and I needed to kill the program. This was consistently happening, but only in GW2. I tried updating drivers, checked voltages on the PSU, re-seated hardware and cables. I even did a re-install of the game. I was just getting ready to reinstall the OS when I stumbled upon a fix. I had a little TSR program called "Core Temp" running in the background from when I was troubleshooting heat related issues from before I swapped my hardware to a new case. I no longer had the heat issues, but I had gotten used to having the temp information displayed on my Logitech keyboard's LCD display. I had closed the TSR for some reason and had forgotten to re-start it. I launched GW2 to try and play a little bit and lo and behold the game ran fine. No issues for several hours of play. But the next time I went to play I had the TSR running and just like clockwork the game locked solid.

This may not be related at all to your problem, but if you are running any kind of monitoring software, try disabling it and running the game again. See if that makes any difference. It is worth a shot. I know it made a big difference in my lockup issues.

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@abomally.2694 said:"In practice that may or may not be the case and may be more a matter of opinion than anything."

The fact that down-clocking the GPU fixes the problem tells you that the hardware is failing at the higher clock speed. The game doesn't measure, know or care about the GPU speed. Now, is it the card itself or another piece of hardware in the system? One thing is for sure - it IS NOT the software "refusing" or "being sensitive" to working at the higher clock rate.

OK, the card is failing, but ONLY for GW2? I'm sorry, I'm not buying in to that. If the card, or some other piece of hardware was truly failing it would have done so years ago and would be failing across the board. The machine, and video card will be 5 years old in December and is still used daily by my kids. It was my primary machine up until about 6 months ago. The only thing that has ever given us grief is GW2, which is the only thing we have to down clock for, and that has been since the day I bought the machine. The clock get set back to factory settings after finishing a GW2 session. The machine, I've brought in to professional PC techs 3 times over the years to try and figure out what's wrong with it and they've never found anything. Other than some bad memory (3 out of 8 sticks -> 64gb) and a bad mouse and/or keyboard throwing faults on the USB bus causing the bus to become unresponsive (That one was a bugger to diagnose) I've never had problems with the machine with anything other than GW2. It's now using completely new memory and a different mouse with PS2 keyboard (Just to have it on a different bus), but only 2 sticks of memory now for 16gb. I opted to buy new memory from a different manufacturer over reusing any of the original 8.

A more likely scenario is that the overclocking on the card is more or less fine since it works for everything else, but GW2 has some code that is causing some runaway or fault condition with certain hardware configurations that it's not handling and down clocking prevents the condition. You don't need to down clock much. In most cases, if it's going to work, a reduction of only 5% will fix the issue and in many cases I've seen over the years, people actually see an increase in frame rate for GW2 after the down clock. Typically I use 10% on that machine since GW2 does not need a super powerful card and the 670 was a beast of a card when GW2 was released, though I'm hearing PoF is more of a pig, but that machine is only running the FTP version now. I've been researching and following this issue since December of 2012, the first time I posted about it on the old forum was January 2013. I've seen on the eVGA and nVidia forums other people complaining of similar issues with other games, but none of which I've owned to test with. Apparently one of the GTA games is notorious for this type of crashing.

FYI, for memory, if you can easily get at it, it's A LOT easier to take it all out and test each stick individually. Doing it this way can also reveal issues not obvious with all the memory in the machine.

@onevstheworld.2419 said:I'll back up what abomally said with my personal anecdote.

I've had a graphics glitch where a polygon on an item/character would suddenly throw colored streaks across my screen. I could reset it by reducing graphics to best performance then going back to my original setting. No amount of game updates, driver updates, OS reinstalls would fix it, nor would other games or software/stress testing reproduce it. My GPU had a very aggressive factory overclock that was known to be at the limit of what that specific chip could achieve. I've updated to a new GPU last month... guess what... the glitch hasn't come back since.Again, why only GW2? It still points to GW2 itself having issues with certain hardware configurations and/or not catching or controlling fault conditions properly, not necessarily bad hardware. It has always pointed to being a code problem, not a hardware problem. Down clocking is a hack to get around bad code.

If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is, but that doesn't mean it sees the over clocking or that it's bad hardware or that the over clocking is bad, the way ANet states it means there is some bug in their code they don't know how, or are unwilling/unable, to fix.

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"If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is..."

Nope. They are wrong. There's no such thing as software that is "sensitive" to overclocking. Either the hardware works properly or it doesn't.

No need to explain how hardware or software works to me, but thanks anyway. I used to write software and am an electronics technician with a great deal of experience. I also do circuit design on occasion. There's no point explaining all of this to you again - you just refuse to listen. I've been doing this for 35 years.

Good luck to you.

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I had a similar problem on my old PC and it seemed to be only when playing GW2.

Turns out my graphics cards fan had crapped out and wouldn't spin, for some reason this game and my fan-less GPU really didn't get on. The odd time the GPU fan actually worked, the game ran fine and the computer wouldn't restart itself.

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@Leamas.5803 said:

@abomally.2694 said:"In practice that may or may not be the case and may be more a matter of opinion than anything."

The fact that down-clocking the GPU fixes the problem tells you that the hardware
is
failing at the higher clock speed. The game doesn't measure, know or care about the GPU speed. Now, is it the card itself or another piece of hardware in the system? One thing is for sure - it IS NOT the software "refusing" or "being sensitive" to working at the higher clock rate.

OK, the card is failing, but ONLY for GW2? I'm sorry, I'm not buying in to that. If the card, or some other piece of hardware was truly failing it would have done so years ago and would be failing across the board. The machine, and video card will be 5 years old in December and is still used daily by my kids. It was my primary machine up until about 6 months ago. The only thing that has ever given us grief is GW2, which is the
only
thing we have to down clock for, and that has been since the day I bought the machine. The clock get set back to factory settings after finishing a GW2 session. The machine, I've brought in to professional PC techs 3 times over the years to try and figure out what's wrong with it and they've never found anything. Other than some bad memory (3 out of 8 sticks -> 64gb) and a bad mouse and/or keyboard throwing faults on the USB bus causing the bus to become unresponsive (That one was a kitten to diagnose) I've never had problems with the machine with anything other than GW2. It's now using completely new memory and a different mouse with PS2 keyboard (Just to have it on a different bus), but only 2 sticks of memory now for 16gb. I opted to buy new memory from a different manufacturer over reusing any of the original 8.

A more likely scenario is that the overclocking on the card is more or less fine since it works for everything else, but GW2 has some code that is causing some runaway or fault condition with certain hardware configurations that it's not handling and down clocking prevents the condition. You don't need to down clock much. In most cases,
if
it's going to work, a reduction of only 5% will fix the issue and in many cases I've seen over the years, people actually see an increase in frame rate for GW2 after the down clock. Typically I use 10% on that machine since GW2 does not need a super powerful card and the 670 was a beast of a card when GW2 was released, though I'm hearing PoF is more of a pig, but that machine is only running the FTP version now. I've been researching and following this issue since December of 2012, the first time I posted about it on the old forum was January 2013. I've seen on the eVGA and nVidia forums other people complaining of similar issues with other games, but none of which I've owned to test with. Apparently one of the GTA games is notorious for this type of crashing.

FYI, for memory, if you can easily get at it, it's A LOT easier to take it all out and test each stick individually. Doing it this way can also reveal issues not obvious with all the memory in the machine.

@onevstheworld.2419 said:I'll back up what abomally said with my personal anecdote.

I've had a graphics glitch where a polygon on an item/character would suddenly throw colored streaks across my screen. I could reset it by reducing graphics to best performance then going back to my original setting. No amount of game updates, driver updates, OS reinstalls would fix it, nor would other games or software/stress testing reproduce it. My GPU had a very aggressive factory overclock that was known to be at the limit of what that specific chip could achieve. I've updated to a new GPU last month... guess what... the glitch hasn't come back since.Again, why only GW2? It still points to GW2 itself having issues with certain hardware configurations and/or not catching or controlling fault conditions properly, not necessarily bad hardware. It has always pointed to being a code problem, not a hardware problem. Down clocking is a hack to get around bad code.

If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is, but that doesn't mean it sees the over clocking or that it's bad hardware or that the over clocking is bad, the way ANet states it means there is some bug in their code they don't know how, or are unwilling/unable, to fix.

It could be how the game is coded to use your hardware that causes GW2 to be the only game that shows the error. And it may not necessarily be a bug in the game, but a sign your card is failing. The only way to know for sure is to swap graphics cards. It's why I haven't gotten rid of my last card.

While it's not hardware related here's a tale of a problem that only showed up in 1 game:

Built my system from scratch. Everything was working smooth. Guild Wars 2, Sims 3, Sims 2, Sims 4, Mass Effect 1-3, etc all work just fine and no crashing that's caused by the computer. Then Mass Effect Andromeda comes out. I would play the game for 30 minutes and have to restart the computer due to it hanging my system up so much. If even 30 minutes depending on what was happening. Bought a new, better graphics card because the one I had was right on the low end. Still had issues. Turns out Mass Effect Andromeda uses the page file and all of the other games I listed do not. I had not set up my page file. Once I set it, the crashing stopped.

So just because something only happens with one game and not any other, doesn't mean that it's the game's fault.

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@abomally.2694 said:"If Arenanet says GW2 is sensitive to over clocking, then it is..."

Nope. They are wrong. There's no such thing as software that is "sensitive" to overclocking. Either the hardware works properly or it doesn't.

No need to explain how hardware or software works to me, but thanks anyway. I used to write software and am an electronics technician with a great deal of experience. I also do circuit design on occasion. There's no point explaining all of this to you again - you just refuse to listen. I've been doing this for 35 years.

Good luck to you.

LOL I don't need luck as I've long since solved the problem on my machine...without spending hundreds more on a new video card, following a suggestion put forth by ANet themselves. ANet may be wrong on the wording when they say "sensitive", but they are not wrong when they say there is a potential issue with their software when it comes to overclocked hardware. It's obviously been a common enough problem and fix that they included it in a sticky post.

https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/support/Crashing-Issues-1/first#post4146866

You can push that the card is failing or that it's buggy all you want, but at the end of 5 years of owning the card the facts do not support that view.

"Either the hardware works properly or it doesn't." - Absolutely, the hardware works within its design limitations...it does what the software tells it to do and, with a lot of modern hardware, if the software tells it to do something that's potentially damaging, very often, it immediately shuts down (aka crashes), which is what it's supposed to do to protect itself, and at this point is still working properly. Not like back in the day when my buddy wrote an assembly TSR to burn hard-drive motors out. The HDD was happy to do what it was told, until it fried itself.

All I'm trying to do is save people money and frustration. Changing the clock speed is a simple test to see if the game stabilizes. After that, if it works, they can decided whether to keep doing this or whether they want to try a new card. That said, I have seen people replace their card only to have the same issues...and replacing the card seems A LOT of money to lay out for the sake of a single game. If changing the clock doesn't help, change it back, then what are they out but a few minutes of time? I've come across others who are adamantly opposed to changing the clock speed, and I used to be one of them, now I just don't understand why I resisted for so long. I spoke with a guy last month who had this issue on a 1070/7700k and did the clock speed change. Not only did it fix his crashing problem, he claimed he gained a substantial amount of frame rate while also being able to use higher graphics settings, which he kept low to make the game more stable.

I'm also a software developer, Oracle DBA, and have done my share of electronics over the years, but most of my experience is on the software side, near on 30 years (Much longer than that if I go back as far as when I was a kid programming Basic games on the Vic-20). I too am old and have been quite stubborn about not buying a new card since in this case I don't think the core issue lies in the hardware at all.

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I do not understand the rabid desires to buy new components instead of finding the software issues. Sure, if you have identical components on hand to swap, then swap them out. To recommend to others to spend hundreds to thousands on components, instead of thoroughly diagnosing software issues first, is reckless.

After carefully reading hardware logs again, I finally noticed the Nvidia Boost was going over 25% above reference clocks while playing GW2. Now that I limited the boost to just below 20% and raised the voltage ceiling slightly, it's been rock solid. Again, this all began after the Windows 10 Creators update which was supposed to increase gaming performance. Logic would suggest, as I stated previously, it was a Windows, Nvidia, GW2 issue and not hardware.

.... cue the software apologist, even though Microsoft admitted there's been performance issues from that update. Also, that it forces drivers to update on the system and can create issues.

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I never said anything about buying new components.

I explicitly stated to SUBSTITUTE known good components with potentially bad ones in order to pinpoint the issue. Another thing that people don't seem to be aware of, is that the BIOS of a graphics card controls the clock speed - UNLESS you manually set it with software. For example, I'm not running the Gigabyte Extreme Gaming Engine software in the background because it frees up 2 to 5% of my CPU, which may be needed for recording. The card automatically adjusts itself without the Gigabyte software running in the background.

I also explained that an overclock is stable or it isn't and that components can degrade over time. This means that a factory overclock may have worked fine when the card was new, but DUE TO COMPONENT DEGRADATION the hardware fails with the factory overclock - this means that it is, in fact, a hardware problem. Very often, the GPU failures will continue to get worse until the card becomes unusable. I know this from experience.

Yes - you can usually lower clock speeds to make an unstable overclock stable. You and the other poster I've been addressing come here looking for answers as to why your graphics cards are crashing when the factory overclocks kick in, then when the answer is given, you blame the problem on everything under the sun except the obvious.

There is also the falsehood of software being "sensitive" to overclocked hardware. Go ask some hardware engineers and they will tell you the same thing that I have.

I hope that was clear enough. Have a good evening.

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Runs fineRuns fineRuns finelarge windows update, nvidia update, GW2 updatecrashing

Let's look at what changed here? And, since it can run stable at higher OC's for other software, that's not degradation, yet.If it was unstable for every game and benchmark, then I would agree with you it's degradation.

The fall creators update is about to roll out, hopefully it with contain more fixes.

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@moonstarmac.4603 said:With multiple cases there may be a way to pin-point a similarity. If you experience these crashes, what GPU & Driver are you using? I do not have them, running RX 470 driver 17.9.1.

I first had this issue on my eVGA nVidia 670gtx SC back in late December/early January of 2012/2013, first reported it to ANet in late January 2013 and have been following it ever since. While the creator's update may have made it worse in recent months, it has been an issue with GW2 for much longer. I can say that 99% of the issues I've seen over the years have been with nVidia, but far more people use nVidia, so that number is a bit skewed. With nVidia, there is also typically a driver crash in the Windows event log that accompanies it (nvlddmkm.sys) and searching the vNidia and eVGA, as the vendor in my case, forums typically garners little help. Driver version can affect it. Back when I first started having issues I was using driver version 306.97, but updating to 310.90 made the game unplayable as it would crash as soon I as panned the camera. Newer versions of the driver also have the same problem. Last one I had crashing on (Because I forgot to down clock) would have been about a year ago, when I last played with the kids, so probably 37x.xx. Unlocked frame rate makes it worse, shaders make it worse, heavily populated maps makes it worse. Updates to GW2 can sometimes make it a little better or worse. Typical behavior is that the problem is ONLY present in GW2 and most often presents itself in two ways, a complete system shutdown as if the power was pulled or a freeze to a blank screen with looped sound, requiring a hard reset (Holding the power in for 5 seconds). The color of the freeze screen can vary. The time to crash varies wildly where crashes can happen within seconds of opening the game or occasionally one can play hours before a crash, but crashes typically happen in less than an hour, making group content such as dungeons/raids/map metas/etc. not very viable. It happens with both the 32-bit (When they still had one) and 64-bit clients. All other games, stress test utilities, and benchmark utilities work fine.

ANet acknowledged there is a problem back some years ago, with some apparently unfortunate wording that some are "sensitive" to :p, but they've never fixed it (The problem OR the wording).https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/support/support/Crashing-Issues-1/first#post4146866

Over the years I've done a massive amount of debugging with ANet, nVidia and eVGA as well as brought the machine in to tech support 3 times, but never resolved it and nothing has been able to replicate the crash. I've tried heavily abusing the card with things like the Furmark burn in test, pretty much setting the card on fire, and setting the view distance way out with HD textures on Skyrim to make it grind in a more random way. Ultimately, ANet's recommendation was to try down clocking overclocked hardware, which is what I eventually did to fix it and have never had a crash since. (And didn't have to buy a new card) I did the entirety of HoT and most LW Season 3 down-clocked without a single crash (Then took the summer off from GW2, so just getting back to finishing up S3).

@DeWolfe.2174 said:Let's look at what changed here? And, since it can run stable at higher OC's for other software, that's not degradation, yet.If it was unstable for every game and benchmark, then I would agree with you it's degradation.

Exactly...

@abomally.2694 said:Yes - you can usually lower clock speeds to make an unstable overclock stable. You and the other poster I've been addressing come here looking for answers as to why your graphics cards are crashing when the factory overclocks kick in, then when the answer is given, you blame the problem on everything under the sun except the obvious.

I haven't been looking for answers in this thread, it WAS answered...by ANet...~3 years ago, according to the forum. The "obvious" answer is that there is a problem with the GW2 software, since ANet openly says there is. They have long acknowledged that their software can have crashing problems with overclocked hardware. The problem does not present in any way in any other application or game. If it was a truly unstable overclock, other applications/games should have issues and something should be able to reproduce the problem in a controlled fashion (Something you NEED to be able to do if you want to get the card RMA'd), neither of which are true here. At the end of my battle with this card (Which I did fight for WAY too long), downclocking was ultimately also the suggestion put forth by both the nVidia and eVGA technical forums.

You're arguing about wording semantics only technical users would understand, and most of those could care less about since we understand what ANet is getting at. You're arguing against an issue and potential fix the software developer has openly stated is there, which is just ponderous to me. Let's be honest, not everyone here is technically savvy. Could it be possible ANet might have been simply trying to explain it in layman's terms that most nontechnical users could understand? Have you ever done technical helpdesk support for nontechnical users or developed software or technical designs for nontechnical users? You really need to dumb down the language, AND you need to be able to do it without sounding condescending. Often we use words or comparisons that are aren't ideal in our world, but that they'll understand. Here at work it's an ability we commonly call "speaking user" and not every technical person has the ability to speak user. In fact, there are many you should keep far away from end users. You don't like the word sensitive, OK, we get that. How else would you word it in nontechnical layman terms. They could say GW2 "has a bug that will not be addressed", but that sounds far more ominous. They could say "GW2 may not work well with all overclocked hardware", but that is a lot more wordy and basically says the same thing as sensitive. In layman terms, in my mind, sensitive is a good word to explain it to nontechnical users, since GW2 is happy most of the time, but sometimes not.

The reality is most nontechnical users could care less about "why", they just want a fix and preferably one that doesn't require new hardware, which I haven't seen you propose anything short of the possibility of failed hardware...you're mostly arguing semantics and technical definitions. At the end of the day, while not technically accurate, "sensitive" describes the problem well for most people...so what's the big deal? If it bothers you that much, perhaps you should put a support ticket and ask them to change the wording on the sticky to something more technically accurate. I've post the URL a couple times. I don't need it changed since I speak user very well, and understand "sensitive".

After fighting this issue for over 3 years myself and following it for almost 5, I've never guaranteed this will work for anyone, but I know it has worked for many, and at least I'm trying to help since I understand how frustrating this issue is. I also understand computer hardware is expensive and not everyone has the option to freely swap hardware at will to test things, so I tend to start with suggestions that do not require new hardware. Unless there's something obviously wrong that points to hardware, like crashing in multiple applications or random BSODs, start with software since a software fix is always preferable when possible (Unless I run a shop and am trying to upsell you), that's basic tech support 101. What are you doing to help, other than bitching about technical terminology?

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ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked, is there any recommended software I can use to test this?

Also, I can get as far as log in safely, so I'll try turning down my graphics in that window before logging in and see if that helps. But you see, thats the issue: this happened once before, if I recall correctly it was early this year with a living story, and a subsequent patch saw the issue go away.

Now its happening again, but only after a bug patch a week or so AFTER the expac came out, so again, as mentioned above, the only thing that changed was GW2, so I cant see that my hardware is going bad. I even had geek squad run stress tests and try and crash it mulitple ways, and they were unable to replicate the issue any way whatsoever except running GW2.

Regardless, havent run it in a bit.... now I'm patching, and it seems like quite a bit, so will try it raw with the patch and, if it crashes again, then I'll try it after downgrading the graphics, and if THAT fails will try and test the overclock state of my graphics card, if any, if someone can direct me to a reliable piece of software I can use for checking and, if necessary, downshifting the overclock....

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Update the driver is evil - if the current driver version is OK.

For example my PC is not working with current nVidia Drivers (video card reboots after 2-3 minutes), I installed an old nVidia Driver pack to make my PC work correctly, and fully disable all system/driver update on my PC to avoid such problem in future.

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so, as a side note, I turned down my graphics settings for the game within the game's graphics options all the way; well, I selected "best performance" out of the drop down box. And for the few minutes before I had to shut down to get ready for work, the game ran just fine.

Oddly enough, since this problem started, it ran just fine for two days before the problem started back up again; so because of that I'm not sure if this is a temporary fix, if the game will shut my computer down after some play, or if this is a more permament fix. Since I have to get to work I wont be able to play it until tonight, so tonight sometime I'll give it a run and see how it does.

But at least it didn't shut down immediately, so that gives me a little hope here.

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@TEKnowledgy.1760 said:Could be power supply dont rule it out just because only doing it on one game

This. But the OP said nothing about whether they have done anything I suggested in my first response or not.

Also, not sure what "geek squad" is (and, personally, find such nicknames for tech-savvy people offensive), but I doubt they had the time to test everything. The OP should take the laptop to professional MSI tech support if they are unable to figure out and fix the issue by themselves.

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@Morfedel.4165 said:

@DeWolfe.2174 said:

@Morfedel.4165 said:ok, so i dont even known if my graphics card CAME overclocked

This can help get us started. Download and run it.

so, the GPU Core Clock is running at 300.0 MHz, and the GPU Memory Clock is running at 150.0 MHz. anything else I need to check?

Which card is it?

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