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Eater of Souls fight is too difficult.


Bloodtau.4672

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Does it ever occur to anyone that toxicity could also be this en > @castlemanic.3198 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:The term I used is
ADJUST: modify, adopt, fine tune
your playstyle, the manner of which you play. This includes and not limited to your movement, weapons, armor, runes, & traits.

I addressed that. In the quote you have in your post.

Here it is again:

Even with a changed build, people can still have problems and it absolutely is toxic to dismiss those people out of hand, citing how "face rolly" it is to you. It's entirely toxic.

Even if you used the term adjust, you still, in the end, said this:

What is unfair are folks who think they have tried when they actually didn't. The fight was easy at first and a joke now.

Which is absolutely toxic, because it entirely dismisses the notion that people could have difficulty
even when adjusting their build
.

What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

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@Deihnyx.6318 said:What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?

When have I ever said that? and I'd tell them that's unreasonable

What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?

Have you even read any of my posts? Like any of them? I've specifically advocated for keeping the mechanics of the fight the same, including the amount the eater of souls heals, just to extend the breakbar, i've had this discussion with you specifically over and over again.

What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

I've tackled this before in another thread, but simply put, some people don't read guides. If the information isn't presented or isn't available in the game, they may simply struggle forever instead of looking online for help (or abandon the game completely). Solution? In game tutorial to teach them the mechanics of the game.

What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

What's objectively toxic is not giving half a thought to the idea that there are those who have altered their builds and still have trouble with the fight. Those people exist, even if you intentionally forget about them or ignore them

What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).

I don't get this argument, because the fact is most people who are interested in the expansion would play it at launch. When else OTHER than the moment you experience trouble would you try and discuss it? Why should someone wait two weeks/months to discuss the issue they are having right NOW? You're also conflating two issues, people lying about their skill level just to get into raids/fractals and people and people talking about how difficult a fight is. Those are not always the same people, there's an intersection to be sure, but not every single person who complains about difficult content also lies to get into more difficult content content.

You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

No, my focus on toxicity is those who choose to ignore, downgrade and insult everyone who doesn't play as good as them just to make themselves feel superior. I am NOT talking about people who refuse to change their builds, I am entirely talking about people who have done everything they can, including changing builds, and still have trouble with the mehcanics. By ignoring the fact that people have various skill levels and some will find content more difficult than others, you automatically show toxic attitude when you tell those people "git gud", "l2p" or any other obnoxious and idiotic term.

I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

I agree with the initial argument, that the game should not promote behaviour that lets people never change their builds, however, asking for this one boss to remain unfairly difficult (yes, unfairly, objectively unfairly) is not the solution. The solution is to offer an in game tutorial that teaches mechanics, buildcraft and gear selection, it's NOT to offer difficult content and expect players who were never fully taught the mechanics of the game to learn the mechanics of the game in a single fight. This ties in with the guides issue, in that some people simply don't look outside of the game for information. On a design level, the game does not teach it's mechanics well and has no true method of teaching the players their mechanics, the descriptors underneath NPC do not substitute for an actual tutorial that fully goes into the depth of traits, gear selection, breakbars etc. I should not be asked to look outside of the game to learn how to play in it, especially if none of that material that's actually useful isn't developed by Anet (this btw is a different argument, one that doesn't touch difficult content, I'm talking the basics of the game, the game should teach the basics but it doesn't, raids and fractals are fine having online guides because you're supposed to learn the mechanics through trial and error).

The solution is to never stuff players into a cannon, fire them head first into a brick wall and expect them to pick up a helmet mid-flight, it's to show them what they'll be asked of and teach them about all the tools they have available to them. So a tutorial will 100% be more effective than throwing a tough enemy that requires adapting a build.

I get that some people will always be stubborn and never want to learn, but your focus is entirely on those people and not the people who have genuinely tried and had a difficult time, which according to your arguments, is impossible (fun fact: it's not impossible for someone to have adapted their build and still fail the fight). My entire focus is entirely on the people who have given it a fair shot (especially those who changed their builds) and still failed, and the toxic behaviour thrown at them.

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Late to the party here but I am missing how this guy was hard. The first time I attempted this fight was on a purely melee character and he got me with his life steal sucking move once. I recognized it, and dodged and ran away every time he did so after. Just dodge and run away, then when it's done go back into melee and continue wailing away.

I know some people got a bug where it could not be dodged even if you got out of range, but that was a bug. Nerfing this fight wasn't needed imo, just fix the bug. Is it really so bad to expect players to be able to see and react to One simple mechanic? I dont know, maybe I'm more elitist than I know. I' consider myself about as casual as they come, never stepped foot into a raid or anything, but this whole discussion boggles my mind.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?

When have I ever said that? and I'd tell them that's unreasonable

What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?

Have you even read any of my posts? Like any of them?
I've specifically advocated for keeping the mechanics of the fight the same, including the amount the eater of souls heals, just to extend the breakbar, i've had this discussion with you specifically over and over again
.

What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

I've tackled this before in another thread, but simply put,
some people don't read guides
. If the information isn't presented or isn't available in the game, they may simply struggle forever instead of looking online for help (or abandon the game completely). Solution? In game tutorial to teach them the mechanics of the game.

What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

What's objectively toxic is not giving half a thought to the idea that there are those who have altered their builds and
still have trouble with the fight
. Those people exist, even if you intentionally forget about them or ignore them

What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).

I don't get this argument, because the fact is
most people who are interested in the expansion would play it at launch
. When else OTHER than the moment you experience trouble would you try and discuss it? Why should someone wait two weeks/months to discuss the issue they are having right NOW? You're also conflating two issues, people lying about their skill level just to get into raids/fractals and people and people talking about how difficult a fight is. Those are not always the same people, there's an intersection to be sure, but not every single person who complains about difficult content also lies to get into more difficult content content.

You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

No, my focus on toxicity is
those who choose to ignore, downgrade and insult everyone who doesn't play as good as them just to make themselves feel superior
. I am NOT talking about people who refuse to change their builds, I am entirely talking about people who have done everything they can, including changing builds, and still have trouble with the mehcanics. By ignoring the fact that people have various skill levels and some will find content more difficult than others, you automatically show toxic attitude when you tell those people "git gud", "l2p" or any other obnoxious and idiotic term.

I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

I agree with the initial argument, that the game should not promote behaviour that lets people never change their builds, however, asking for this one boss to remain unfairly difficult (yes, unfairly, objectively unfairly) is not the solution. The solution is to offer an in game tutorial that teaches mechanics, buildcraft and gear selection, it's NOT to offer difficult content and expect players who were never fully taught the mechanics of the game to learn the mechanics of the game in a single fight. This ties in with the guides issue, in that some people simply don't look outside of the game for information. On a design level, the game does not teach it's mechanics well and has no true method of teaching the players their mechanics, the descriptors underneath NPC do not substitute for an actual tutorial that fully goes into the depth of traits, gear selection, breakbars etc. I should not be asked to look outside of the game to learn how to play in it, especially if none of that material that's actually useful isn't developed by Anet (this btw is a different argument, one that doesn't touch difficult content, I'm talking the basics of the game,
the game should teach the basics but it doesn't
, raids and fractals are fine having online guides because you're supposed to learn the mechanics through trial and error).

The solution is to never stuff players into a cannon, fire them head first into a brick wall and expect them to pick up a helmet mid-flight, it's to show them what they'll be asked of and teach them about all the tools they have available to them. So a tutorial will 100% be more effective than throwing a tough enemy that requires adapting a build.

I get that some people will always be stubborn and never want to learn, but your focus is entirely on those people and not the people who have genuinely tried and had a difficult time, which according to your arguments, is impossible (fun fact: it's not impossible for someone to have adapted their build and still fail the fight). My entire focus is entirely on the people who have given it a fair shot (especially those who changed their builds) and still failed, and the toxic behaviour thrown at them.

Maybe you're right, regarding the use of laziness was probably in poor taste.However, after review your statements it's obvious this is beyond L2P, which still doesn't change my position on penalizing other players.

There are some folks who just can't cook very well(I refuse to let my wife cook), not good teachers, not good leaders, not good drivers(curses at David Hasselhoff), I have folks who are not good at their jobs, we don't reward them and we don't penalize others either. When it's your wife, you have to tread carefully.

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@Rhanoa.3960 said:Maybe you're right, regarding the use of laziness was probably in poor taste.However, after review your statements it's obvious this is beyond L2P, which still doesn't change my position on penalizing other players.

There are some folks who just can't cook very well(I refuse to let my wife cook), not good teachers, not good leaders, not good drivers(curses at David Hasselhoff), I have folks who are not good at their jobs, we don't reward them and we don't penalize others either. When it's your wife, you have to tread carefully.

This is a video game, where the rules can and should be adapted to allow for the most people to have fun. Having a boss fight that is too hard for a playerbase who were never taught the full mechanics of the game is completely unfair and it should be adapted to allow for everyone to have fun and beat it. At the same time, the devs should work on a solution to teach players how to play the game. The example about cooking, then, doesn't match, because while some will never be good at cooking, some were never given the chance to learn how to cook, so why should they be penalized for not having the opportunity to learn and then thrust into a situation where it's cook or die (especially in a video game, which is about fun)? Why should players be penalized because the game never taught them the mechanics? How does that make sense?

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What do you say when people repetitively tell you "You shouldn't have to change your build in story mode"?

When have I ever said that? and I'd tell them that's unreasonable

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What do you say when people's arguments all lead to the same conclusion that they haven't changed their build (ex: Minions healing, pet healing, no range etc)?Have you even read any of my posts? Like any of them?
I've specifically advocated for keeping the mechanics of the fight the same, including the amount the eater of souls heals, just to extend the breakbar, i've had this discussion with you specifically over and over again
.

Citing examples read in this very thread to justify some comments that you're calling "toxic".I find people unwilling to learn toxic for the game. And these people exist in this very thread. Show me posts of people who genuinely struggled with this fight and didn't end up getting it after following guides. Maybe I missed some?

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What do you say when a lot of people spend their time to post guides, only for them to be completely ignored?

I've tackled this before in another thread, but simply put,
some people don't read guides
. If the information isn't presented or isn't available in the game, they may simply struggle forever instead of looking online for help (or abandon the game completely). Solution? In game tutorial to teach them the mechanics of the game.

And that's their choice not to read guides. But if you're gonna complain on THIS VERY THREAD, a few days after the game comes out, get help on THIS VERY THREAD, and still complain ON THIS VERY THREAD and blame the game, this excuse doesn't hold and it's easy to assume a lack of willingness to L2P.At least try guides before complaining if you don't want to be called out for unwillingness to learn.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What is toxic to you is people who are calling out others not for having difficulties but for being too lazy to learn (making shortcuts here).

What's objectively toxic is not giving half a thought to the idea that there are those who have altered their builds and
still have trouble with the fight
. Those people exist, even if you intentionally forget about them or ignore them

Struggling in a game during boss fights is absolutely normal and is not a game flaw. Blaming the game for offering challenge is the problem at hands, here.You want to make it a fight between elitists and casual/"bad" players while in fact it's a fight between casual/"bad" players and the game expectations. I happen to agree with the original vision of the game expectations (pre-tweet "here's why we're nerfing" excuse) but that doesn't make me toxic nor elitist.I prefer people who straight up say they want everything easy. At least they're honest.(Note I put "bad" in quotes because I am not trying to judge anyone negatively for that)

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:What is toxic to me is people asking to make a game easier, a few days only after release of a game, ignoring help and guides and effectively leading to a game being made ridiculously easy, and not understand why they can't win some fights (oh the gator bounty) and again saying "it's too difficult", also leading to just as toxic behavior that is to lie on your actual skill level to join some groups (fractals, raids).

I don't get this argument, because the fact is
most people who are interested in the expansion would play it at launch
. When else OTHER than the moment you experience trouble would you try and discuss it? Why should someone wait two weeks/months to discuss the issue they are having right NOW? You're also conflating two issues, people lying about their skill level just to get into raids/fractals and people and people talking about how difficult a fight is. Those are not always the same people, there's an intersection to be sure, but not every single person who complains about difficult content also lies to get into more difficult content content.

They can discuss about their difficulty and ask for help, but NOT ask for nerf because they haven't figured out a way yet. You will not see half of us in a thread that simply ask for help, because unlike what you said, we're not all toxic elitists spamming the l2p argument, we're just defending a certain notion of what a game is, the notion of fulfillment after beating a difficult fight and straight up asking for nerf goes against that.And the unwillingness to face challenge is causing more game issues that I mentioned.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:You focus on toxicity as "People telling you to get better", I focus on toxicity as "what's in best interest of the game, what is going to get us the most interesting fights?"'

No, my focus on toxicity is
those who choose to ignore, downgrade and insult everyone who doesn't play as good as them just to make themselves feel superior
. I am NOT talking about people who refuse to change their builds, I am entirely talking about people who have done everything they can, including changing builds, and still have trouble with the mehcanics. By ignoring the fact that people have various skill levels and some will find content more difficult than others, you automatically show toxic attitude when you tell those people "git gud", "l2p" or any other obnoxious and idiotic term.

Telling them to learn mechanics has nothing to do with elitism. You're dedicated into making it seem that way but it's not.Learn to play is not toxic, it's basically telling you the game expects you to get to a certain level of skill before you can keep going. It's ridiculous to call that toxicism. Many games have difficulty checks like that and players just... accept it or stop playing.People don't like hearing that they don't have the required skill to achieve something. That is not a reason to become toxic yourself and assume that the game and the players alike are all mocking a lack of skill.In a healthy group, it is perfectly acceptable to tell your team mate when they under perform, this is not toxicism.

@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Deihnyx.6318 said:I don't consider it to be in the best interest of the game to promote behavior that would consist in never adapting builds, and I don't accept the "toxic" argument as a wildcard to constantly reject people who want to elevate the game to a certain level, especially not since we're at the second expansion and we STILL READ in this very thread quite a few people unwilling to adapt their build to a situation.

I agree with the initial argument, that the game should not promote behaviour that lets people never change their builds, however, asking for this one boss to remain unfairly difficult (yes, unfairly, objectively unfairly) is not the solution. The solution is to offer an in game tutorial that teaches mechanics, buildcraft and gear selection, it's NOT to offer difficult content and expect players who were never fully taught the mechanics of the game to learn the mechanics of the game in a single fight. This ties in with the guides issue, in that some people simply don't look outside of the game for information. On a design level, the game does not teach it's mechanics well and has no true method of teaching the players their mechanics, the descriptors underneath NPC do not substitute for an actual tutorial that fully goes into the depth of traits, gear selection, breakbars etc. I should not be asked to look outside of the game to learn how to play in it, especially if none of that material that's actually useful isn't developed by Anet (this btw is a different argument, one that doesn't touch difficult content, I'm talking the basics of the game,
the game should teach the basics but it doesn't
, raids and fractals are fine having online guides because you're supposed to learn the mechanics through trial and error).

The solution is to never stuff players into a cannon, fire them head first into a brick wall and expect them to pick up a helmet mid-flight, it's to show them what they'll be asked of and teach them about all the tools they have available to them. So a tutorial will 100% be more effective than throwing a tough enemy that requires adapting a build.

I get that some people will always be stubborn and never want to learn, but your focus is entirely on those people and not the people who have genuinely tried and had a difficult time, which according to your arguments, is impossible (fun fact: it's not impossible for someone to have adapted their build and still fail the fight). My entire focus is entirely on the people who have given it a fair shot (especially those who changed their builds) and still failed, and the toxic behaviour thrown at them.

My focus is based on the early answers from this very thread, followed by way too many posts like yours that assume that most people were trying very hard and almost quitting after a week sweating over this boss, which I don't consider to be true, at least coming from the people who participating in this thread early on.

I'd love to actually talk to them, instead of their representative, and try to understand exactly where they were still having issues even after following guides. Maybe Anet could take note as well and get better at explaining their game mechanics. But I'm not seeing any of that here. All I'm seeing is that stupid fight over elitism.Almost none of the posts I've seen actually show people who genuinely were trying to learn before blaming it on the game, and it's certainly not by saying "objectively unfairly" which is all but objective that you'll change my mind.

Otherwise yes, offering better training story / sessions is infinitely better than straight up nerfing something. Infinitely better, we can at least agree that there's need for more training story.

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@"Deihnyx.6318"

Maybe I just haven't read enough of this thread. We're on the 9th page about this topic, so I'll just take you at your word that there are people on this thread who refuse to work with the guides provided to them.

However, just because those people exist doesn't mean there aren't people who have done everything they could, including changing builds, and still can't beat the boss. At that point, it's not a learn to play issue, it's a game mechanics issue that needs to be resolved. By 'struggling with the boss', I mean unable to beat it. I also disagree that someone should take a week bashing their head against a wall until they come to the forums and ask for a nerf, you can pretty quickly figure if you're outmatched because of buildcraft or because the boss was overtuned, but that's pretty subjective and not everyone would have that ability to differentiate between the two.

I've become entirely cynical surrounding anything in gaming that has to do with two sides debating difficulty, because nearly 100% of the time, toxic elitists don't care to listen to the complaints of those who have difficulties, including the ones who've learned all the mechanics and still have issues, going so far as to insult, degrade and tear apart anyone who plays on an easier difficulty than "instant death" and go to extremes to annihilate anyone who even whispers anything about difficulty levels. Those responses have completely dulled my ability to take a look at "learn to play" in any way other than extremely toxic. "Learn to play", in and of itself, is not something objectionable, it's a hint that there's more to explore and possibly something you may have missed, but the standard use throughout the industry as a whole has turned it into a phrase that's become the staple of the worst of the worst in the industry. So forgive my hardline response, this is genuinely the first time ever i've had someone relay nuance about true learn to play issues instead of the extremely toxic "i did it, why can't you?" bs that just permeates everything, real life and video games included. Not everyone has the same capabilities, but you at least expect players to try (and change their build) and would listen if players still had difficulties after reading guides, which is a large step above the toxic wastelands that have appeared through other communities i've been a part of.

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Having fights in the story which require the player to know how to approach a break bar means we have a more educated playerbase. Anyone crying about difficulty did not play the fight correctly (interupt him), if you learned the mechanic you would now be a better player (which is good for everyone as we might group with you later).

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I found the intitial, pre-change, fight to be extremely tedious rather than difficult. I got into a good rhythm of chipping his health down and keeping my distance to avoid his super-cheaty AoE vampiric-health-restore as much as I could till one slip up got me at 0 range and he gobbled up to a full-heal. It drained my enthusiasm for the fight and I just died, restored to a checkpoint and then logged out for the night. The thought of trying again was just 'urgh' and it took any excitment I had left and flushed it away.

Next night I decided to use more of the environment to setup a kind of

and it worked better than that; he got stuck on a piece of scenery and I just left longbow-dragonhunter 1 on auto till it whittled him down to 5% when he realised why I wasn't getting any nearer, dislodged himself and I unloaded a scepter-torch burst to take him out.

Thing is; I don't recall any encounter with this vampiric heal PBAoE move anywhere else. Shockwaves, distance-leeching maybe but never a pull move that also drains health in greater amounts the closer you get. Compared to a point in the final fight and a technique from the LW3 shows up and I instantly knew what to do because it was already taught like a comeback move in a movie when an early moment turns out to be incredibly useful near the end of the story. It felt good like Chekov running down a corridor "I know this!" good.

I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

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@Haishao.6851 said:

@Tyger.1637 said:

I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

I killed it in one minute with my mesmer no problem.

I believe there is even a video somewhere too.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:Maybe you're right, regarding the use of laziness was probably in poor taste.However, after review your statements it's obvious this is beyond L2P, which still doesn't change my position on penalizing other players.

There are some folks who just can't cook very well(I refuse to let my wife cook), not good teachers, not good leaders, not good drivers(curses at David Hasselhoff), I have folks who are not good at their jobs, we don't reward them and we don't penalize others either. When it's your wife, you have to tread carefully.

This is a video game, where the rules can and should be adapted to allow for the most people to have fun. Having a boss fight that is too hard for a playerbase who were never taught the full mechanics of the game is completely unfair and it should be adapted to allow for everyone to have fun and beat it. At the same time, the devs should work on a solution to teach players how to play the game. The example about cooking, then, doesn't match, because while some will never be good at cooking, some were never given the chance to learn how to cook, so why should they be penalized for not having the opportunity to learn and then thrust into a situation where it's cook or die (especially in a video game, which is about fun)? Why should players be penalized because the game never taught them the mechanics? How does that make sense?

Video game is a lot like a recreational sport or hobby. Something fun as you learn the ins and out of, however, it doesn't mean you will excel like everyone else. You can teach or someone can learn how to cook, doesn't mean they will apply it. 3 of my previous partners would rather cut corners, in temp & in time when they cooked so they can have a quick meal that was either soggy, tough, or dried out.You are not, but some will, go to the gym and decide they want to join a pickup basketball and usually they are surrounded intermediate to advanced players(not including PROs), they are not going to take it easy on you just to make the game fair.I actually hear this a lot with yoga, as we have the weekend warriors who do not exercise regularly taking advance classes and hurting themselves, then complain that teacher was too hard.

There is so much information available on the internet compared to 1995 when I was in college.Just last weekend I learned how to cook the perfect velvety scrambled eggs and didn't even have to take a culinary class for it. I will never go back to cooking scrambled eggs the way I use to.

Given my awesome track record I don't expect you to understand. I gotta say, I am pretty Big in Europe!

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@Tyger.1637 said:

I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

I only play mesmer and he dies extremely easily. You interupt him and win, if you miss an interupt you have 4(!!!) buttons which remove your illusions.

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@Rhanoa.3960 said:

@Haishao.6851 said:

@Tyger.1637 said:

I'm glad it's been changed; no amount of build changes would help a mesmer and an encounter like this should never nullify a professions main skill.

I killed it in one minute with my mesmer no problem.

I believe there is even a video somewhere too.

There is

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@Rhanoa.3960 said:Video game is a lot like a recreational sport or hobby. Something fun as you learn the ins and out of, however, it doesn't mean you will excel like everyone else. You can teach or someone can learn how to cook, doesn't mean they will apply it. 3 of my previous partners would rather cut corners, in temp & in time when they cooked so they can have a quick meal that was either soggy, tough, or dried out.You are not, but some will, go to the gym and decide they want to join a pickup basketball and usually they are surrounded intermediate to advanced players(not including PROs), they are not going to take it easy on you just to make the game fair.I actually hear this a lot with yoga, as we have the weekend warriors who do not exercise regularly taking advance classes and hurting themselves, then complain that teacher was too hard.

There is so much information available on the internet compared to 1995 when I was in college.Just last weekend I learned how to cook the perfect velvety scrambled eggs and didn't even have to take a culinary class for it. I will never go back to cooking scrambled eggs the way I use to.

Given my awesome track record I don't expect you to understand. I gotta say, I am pretty Big in Europe!

How condescending.

It's not like a recreational sport, because while there is interaction with other players, communication with those players is not essential for the core aspects of the game. Without the requirement of communication to play through the game, it's then unreasonable to assume that a player will pick up all the ins and outs of the game. With cooking, you can try it out on your own, you can eventually learn what works and what doesn't, but sometimes you'll just adapt to your own tastes and figure out how some bits work. That doesn't mean you'll turn out a professional chef, and the vast majority of people don't. Giving classes at least puts the expectation that everyone is on the same level. If they then decide not to use their skills as taught, then the onus is on them. However, picking up a random group of strangers, tossing them into the ironchef competition and expecting them all to cook like master chefs is exactly as dumb as it sounds. Having a tutorial to explain the game mechanics at least puts the onus on the players to learn about the game mechanics using the tools available within the game, most players don't really look for outside help unless they are really dedicated to the game, but players should also not be required to look outside of the game to be taught how to play, nor should it fall on the players shoulders to learn basic mechanics of the game by asking from others. The game itself should teach how to play, and it's a major failing of this game to expect players, old and new, to simply know everything about the game. Breakbars for example are something that still have no tutorial to truly teach what they are and how to break them or deal with them in the game.

The game absolutely needs to make a tutorial in order to assume that everyone is on the same page. As it stands, various people don't understand various aspects of the game, another forum user didnt know how combos worked until last year, and they've been playing since vanilla. Combos. Let that sink in how terrible it is that there's no official tutorial that goes through the mechanics of the game in even the tiniest bit of depth.

We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

I am all for including break bar tutorials but it is ludicrous to ask a boss fight in the second expansion(!!) to not have a break bar mechanic until you get that tutorial. Keeping the entire production of content at nooby level for a 5 year old game is just insulting to everyone, it creates boring fights for veterans and makes newer players out to be idiots who cannot pick up new mechanics.

Fights with mechanics improve player skill and also check to see if you should be allowed to progress, you didn't get to kill Ganon without completing the Water Temple and you shouldn't be allowed to kill Balthazar without understanding what a break bar is.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

I'm only gonna comment on that since I doubt we will ever agree on the rest.But that, yes. Let's make a deal, once (if) Anet ever make once that summarize all the core game mechanics (so CC, dodge, block, combo fields etc), let's NEVER talk about nerf of anything that's part of said tutorial.

As someone said earlier in this thread, an issue that I'm willing to accept is that a lot of these "fights" that teaches these mechanics are found in LS3... which is locked behind gems.

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@Coulter.2315 said:I am all for including break bar tutorials but it is ludicrous to ask a boss fight in the second expansion(!!) to not have a break bar mechanic until you get that tutorial. Keeping the entire production of content at nooby level for a 5 year old game is just insulting to everyone, it creates boring fights for veterans and makes newer players out to be idiots who cannot pick up new mechanics.

Fights with mechanics improve player skill and also check to see if you should be allowed to progress, you didn't get to kill Ganon without completing the Water Temple and you shouldn't be allowed to kill Balthazar without understanding what a break bar is.

Never said that the eater of souls shouldn't have a breakbar. In fact, i've stated multiple times throughout various threads that the only nerf needed was to extend the breakbar duration of the leap before the swirling lifesteal vortex to a few seconds, you wouldn't even have to change the health regen numbers. I understand the importance of having mechanically interesting fights, I agree with having mechanically interesting fights, all I thought was needed was to extend the breakbars. Preventing ranger pets from adding additional health regen was a good move too, since the devs shouldn't demand that rangers play soulbeast for a single fight, it's not that I think buildcraft isn't important, I just think with ranger pets you'd be limiting buildcraft for a single fight to extreme methods where other classes wouldn't be asked to do such. I could argue either way for minions being immune to the lifesteal health regen but I do lean slightly against giving minions immunity simply because minions aren't a core mechanic where ranger pets are, and thus different skills can be used in place of minions. I do agree that the nerf to the life regen was unnecessary.

EDIT: What I mean is, after a tutorial is introduced, we can then start asking devs for even more interesting fights, something that could then lead to eventual raid like mechanics in personal story missions a couple of expansions down the line. The devs have started to do this kind of stuff already with season 3, but they wouldn't have to be as restrained with it's implementation in the future because a tutorial would go a long way to help.

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@castlemanic.3198 said:

@Rhanoa.3960 said:Video game is a lot like a recreational sport or hobby. Something fun as you learn the ins and out of, however, it doesn't mean you will excel like everyone else. You can teach or someone can learn how to cook, doesn't mean they will apply it. 3 of my previous partners would rather cut corners, in temp & in time when they cooked so they can have a quick meal that was either soggy, tough, or dried out.You are not, but some will, go to the gym and decide they want to join a pickup basketball and usually they are surrounded intermediate to advanced players(not including PROs), they are not going to take it easy on you just to make the game fair.I actually hear this a lot with yoga, as we have the weekend warriors who do not exercise regularly taking advance classes and hurting themselves, then complain that teacher was too hard.

There is so much information available on the internet compared to 1995 when I was in college.Just last weekend I learned how to cook the perfect velvety scrambled eggs and didn't even have to take a culinary class for it. I will never go back to cooking scrambled eggs the way I use to.

Given my awesome track record I don't expect you to understand. I gotta say, I am pretty Big in Europe!

How condescending.

It's not like a recreational sport, because while there is interaction with other players, communication with those players is not essential for the core aspects of the game. Without the requirement of communication to play through the game, it's then unreasonable to assume that a player will pick up all the ins and outs of the game. With cooking, you can try it out on your own, you can eventually learn what works and what doesn't, but sometimes you'll just adapt to your own tastes and figure out how some bits work. That doesn't mean you'll turn out a professional chef, and the vast majority of people don't. Giving classes at least puts the expectation that everyone is on the same level. If they then decide not to use their skills as taught, then the onus is on them. However, picking up a random group of strangers, tossing them into the ironchef competition and expecting them all to cook like master chefs is exactly as kitten as it sounds. Having a tutorial to explain the game mechanics at least puts the onus on the players to learn about the game mechanics using the tools available within the game, most players don't really look for outside help unless they are really dedicated to the game, but players should also not be required to look outside of the game to be taught how to play, nor should it fall on the players shoulders to learn
basic
mechanics of the game by asking from others. The game itself should teach how to play, and it's a major failing of this game to expect players, old and new, to simply know everything about the game. Breakbars for example are something that still have no tutorial to truly teach what they are and how to break them or deal with them in the game.

The game absolutely needs to make a tutorial in order to assume that everyone is on the same page. As it stands, various people don't understand various aspects of the game, another forum user didnt know how
combos
worked until last year, and they've been playing since vanilla. Combos. Let that sink in how terrible it is that there's no official tutorial that goes through the mechanics of the game in even the tiniest bit of depth.

We need an official in game tutorial. Once we have that, we can then start demanding more from the personal story and get more interesting fights.

Ok, I see how it is.

Your whole statement now shows that you are not willing to make any effort to take the time and learn.YOU and I are still given the same informative tools to execute in game content.We all started where you are at, we were not taught how the mechanics work, we had figured it out, and some folks have taken the time to write guides to help out folks like yourself.

Again, ignoring what is already available to you and myself.

So rather make any effort you would rather have someone else do all the homework for you.You are playing an MMO, you can't play it without internet access.

Break BarsCombos

Please don't blame the connectivity, the lag, the game card, or PC. You and I are given the system requirements before purchasing the game.

This is not a toxic attitude as my original statement has just now been proven otherwise.

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@Rhanoa.3960 said:Ok, I see how it is.

Your whole statement now shows that you are not willing to make any effort to take the time and learn.YOU and I are still given the same informative tools to execute in game content.We all started where you are at, we were not taught how the mechanics work, we had figured it out, and some folks have taken the time to write guides to help out folks like yourself.

Again, ignoring what is already available to you and myself.

So rather make any effort you would rather have someone else do all the homework for you.You are playing an MMO, you can't play it without internet access.

Break Bars

Please don't blame the connectivity, the lag, the game card, or PC. You and I are given the system requirements before purchasing the game.

This is not a toxic attitude as my original statement has just now been proven.

I beat the eater of souls pre nerf first try without dying, why are you giving me details on what breakbars are? And I said the game doesn't give you enough information. That information should be available in game. Why would you possibly have an issue with that? Having a tutorial explain basic game mechanics benefits everyone, meaning that more interesting and difficult mechanics can be implemented in the game, and we wouldn't have nearly as many "please nerf this" threads everywhere.

I don't get what your issue is. Why would you even assume i'm talking about my own personal experience? I'm asking for something that benefits everyone.

Truly, it really is highlighting how condescending you are being.

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A lot to respond to. Way I see it is that it wasn't awful, but it needed to be tuned down. It's a story instance. Who actually cares how easy or difficult the story is? The story should be easy enough to finish blindfolded. Add challenge motes for achievements as necessary.

The game's a lot bigger than a handful of story instances.

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@Cuddy.6247 said:A lot to respond to. Way I see it is that it wasn't awful, but it needed to be tuned down. It's a story instance. Who actually cares how easy or difficult the story is? The story should be easy enough to finish blindfolded. Add challenge motes for achievements as necessary.

The game's a lot bigger than a handful of story instances.

If nobody cared there wouldn't be 9 pages about it (and other threads).I doubt people care about this specific instance itself but more about the message it sends to the playerbase that it's always gonna be easy.

  • For players who enjoy challenging content, they aren't providing a way to keep the original content (Caudecus, KotJ, now eater of souls, im sure im forgetting more)
  • Keeping the playerbase generally "bad" is affecting everyone during events, you can clearly see it during bounty trains with some specific fights that requires CCing or the boss heal... or simply standing in a specific zone.
  • PoF has no "hard" content and is getting nerfs to be even easier.

People care for a lot of reasons that are beyond this simple fight.

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