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Official Mount Adoption Feedback Thread [merged]


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This game is free. This is an optional thing you do not have to do. That's that it's that's literally it there's no "discourse". You do not have to pay for an optional cosmetic item that in no way affects your game play other than Shiny Griffon. I wish I'd seen anywhere near this amount of discussion or outrage over five years with the lack of diversity in this game. But no, mount skins is what sets this community on fire.

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@Kenshi Maru.5489 said:TBH I agree that the Reforged Jackal skin is also way overpriced. Like, if it's an outfit you can wear it all the time with any character from any race. If it's a mount skin? you may be using it from time to time in your travels (it's not even the fastest or most useful mount in the game either).

700 Gems might be too cheap, but when you consider that's what outfits cost and you're always using it 2000 is mind-numbingly expensive. It even feels like they gave all this RNG blowback so that we would complain about the 400 gem skins and not the, let's say, 1000 gem skins being sold for twice the price.

It does feel like they are preying on the market/consumers because there is high demand for this and so far no skin you can get in-game. Price points are definitely not worth it as they are right now. And this is coming from someone who has time and time again bought gems and the Deluxe version of the expansions and really loved supporting the ANet.

Well, I am kind of comparing the mounts with gliders in my head, which may be a bad idea. We have a single glider that we have to use, not a set of them for different situations, and that one glider gets a single skin for much cheaper. Here we get a single skin for a single mount, even though, technically we need 5 of them. The prices should be appropriate. Maybe 700 is too small of a price, but I just can't help but think about the fact that only the Jackal gets it.

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Personally, these mount skin RNG boxes makes me scared of the direction the game is going.

Most of the basic recolors/retextures could have been put into the game as rewards/achievements, and the more elaborate skins could have been sold for 600-1000 gems each. Instead now we've got nothing to work towards and just a whole bunch of gemstore items that most aren't willing to pay money for.

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Hmmm, I guess if I were gonna fix this I'd offer the random skins for 250 gems and offer a specific selection for 400 gems. Looking around this thread and on reddit there does seem to be a demand for the skins at these prices. I'd also toss the community a bone and include at least one of each mount as drops in PoF somewhere.

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@"Hamburger Jack.2543" said:This game is free. This is an optional thing you do not have to do. That's that it's that's literally it there's no "discourse". You do not have to pay for an optional cosmetic item that in no way affects your game play other than Shiny Griffon. I wish I'd seen anywhere near this amount of discussion or outrage over five years with the lack of diversity in this game. But no, mount skins is what sets this community on fire.

The game is free, yes. But you need PoF to use the skins; ergo, you paid the full price of the expansion to use mounts. And yes, it does affect your gameplay. It's content that's locked behind a completely random system. You have no other way to get these skins except for gambling. If you're really unlucky and don't, you have to spend a full 9.6k gems. That's over 100$ for a single skin, or over 3.6k gold.

And it wasn't mount skins that set the community "on fire". It was anet using predatory practices that pray on the psychologically weak that so many other piles of human filth (activision, EA, WB just to name a few) use to abuse people who are weak to the thrill of gambling. People want the skins. People want to spend money on the skins. But people DON'T want to spend money on a 1/31st chance to get the skin they want. They want to pay for the content they want; they DON'T want to leave it up to chance for the content they want, and either be SOL or have to pay more.

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I've been playing Guild Wars 2 since launch, it's one of my all-time favorites. I've used the gem store plenty of times in the past, and I'm more than happy to drop some real money on gems every now and then, since there is no subscription fee and updates outside of expansions are free if you're a current player. I 100% understand the Gem Store's presence and have been happy with just about every purchase I've made.

However, I will not be investing any gems, gold, or money into Mount Adoption. Having paid-for mount skins is completely acceptable and quite exciting, and some of the work put in to avoid simple color palette swaps is impressive - I'm a particular fan of the Canyon Spiketail Raptor - but, to me, the method of acquiring these skins is a step over the line into unacceptable as a method of monetization and an interaction with a player. I'll break that down now:

As a method of monetization, Mount Adoption breaks many previous rules established by Guild Wars 2. The common gameplay loop for acquiring desirable items ("cool stuff", as I like to call it) involves an incentive, a challenge, and a reward. For instance, I recently got a Tequatl's Hoard chest from the World Boss in Sparkfly Fen, which contains the player's choice of one ascended weapon from a selection. These weapons are the highest-tier items in the game. I was ecstatic, leafing through my options like a kid in a candy store. I had an incentive (kill the big dragon knowing that I had a chance to get some cool stuff), a challenge (kill the big dragon with an army of other players), and a reward (big dragon falls into the water, chest of cool stuff). There was an element of randomization here in what loot I got, but once the loot was acquired, the reward was in my hands, and I could define what that reward could be with the weapon selection.

Taking the example of incentive, challenge, and reward into the Gem Store is much, much more difficult; it's important that the experience itself be enjoyable, but the loop is much more direct, making this challenging. A player opens up the Gem Store, and their incentive is right in front of them - a store of cool stuff that they can buy. There's also a challenge involved, as players can technically convert gold into gems, but from my experience this requires an immense amount of grinding to achieve, especially for the Mount Adoption, which players are calculating will cost an average of $120 for a complete collection, so most players will likely not experience this challenge. The reward is found in being sent the cool thing directly to the player's mailbox. Since the loop here is so short and will, most of the time, involve a real money transaction, the only way this loop can be satisfying is through the reward itself; in short, the stuff bought from the Gem Store has to be unique, and it has to be really cool.

Regarding Mount Adoption specifically, I understand the method from a business perspective - a player is probably only going to be interested in one or two mount skins, and they would spend a significantly smaller amount of money acquiring them directly than they would rolling for them with Mount Adoption. However, I also feel like this demonstrates a need for immediate gratification by utilizing a system that has performed extremely well, but garnered a huge amount of criticism in the wider gaming world, likely in an attempt to jump on the Loot Box train while it's still settling, so that future monetization systems can be similar without garnering as much controversy. That said, I do feel like this attempt for immediate gratification is going to damage Guild Wars 2; for every player that will happily drop approximately $120 to complete their collection or aim for a specific skin, there will be players who avoid the system on principle. These player - such as myself - tend to be outspoken, and will happily contribute to a wider conversation such as this and express their distaste for the system, or - and this could be much more dangerous - the game itself.

I bring this up because Guild Wars 2 is a game that has fostered an incredible community, both within guilds and across the game as a whole. Every aspect of the game's core design (shared gathering nodes, no enemy tapping, scaling events, liberal use of group challenges, constant rewards) has, over the last 5 years, built a community that has become far more interconnected, inclusive, and open than any other community I've found in a video game. The game itself is designed around playing together. These are folks who talk to each other, and every time a system or a decision is made that upsets a portion of that community, the higher risk there is for those people to (quite rightly) discuss the issue with others. One needs only look at the huge followings of outspoken critics of Loot Boxes such as Jim Sterling to see that this effect is very real, and with the colossal amount of outrage and anger surrounding Loot Boxes in the gaming world, I fear that Guild Wars could suffer as a result of dipping its toe into that discussion moreso than it already has. I have not really participated in the Black Lion Chest system, and from what I understand these chests have been in the game since close to launch (although I might be wrong), so I don't want to comment on them.

In short, my concern from a monetization perspective is that bringing in (more) Loot Boxes during a period of extreme unrest and resentment over their inclusion could damage the game in the long run through player distrust and resentment. Loot Boxes are not a symbiotic relationship with the player, and for every player that gets what they want from a Mount Adoption roll, there will likely be others who try it once, end up feeling cheated, and will never get involved in a system like that again.

This brings me onto clarifying my second point: that the Mount Adoption is a poor interaction with the player.

As an avid MMO player, I thoroughly enjoy the account progress associated with these games, with every resource mined, every skin unlocked, and every achievement point earned going towards a visible, tangible amount of progression. These can be extremely long, challenging, and at times tedious, but at the core of the process is the player; I am the one that decides to grind materials for a Legendary Weapon, or travel across the Crystal Desert to unlock the Gryphon. Guild Wars 2 has always presented a challenge to the player and laid out what they need to do to get there (take a look at the Legendary Weapon achievement panel for a great example of this), and done very little to obscure or obstruct that process through deliberate randomization.

This, I feel, is where the crux of the Loot Box problem lies; it just doesn't feel good to get something you don't want. This might very well be part of their success in the wider gaming world, but it is also very easy to resent a system that can, for lack of a better term, screw a player over. To me, the inclusion of a system that prevents repeat mount skins elevates it above being downright exploitative, but only just. The player has absolutely zero autonomy in these interactions. They are essentially playing a slot machine, and while that may be fine in a casino - or even in other genres of video games - MMOs have always been about player progression. As mentioned before, the player is the one deciding to go on these journeys to acquire gear, skins, collectibles, achievements, etc. If I don't want to grind for a legendary weapon skin, I still have plenty of others to choose from. If I don't want to craft an ascended piece of gear, I can find other ways to get one. This player choice, I want to reiterate, is what makes Guild Wars 2 fantastic. There is so rarely a predetermined path to a reward.

The Mount Adoption is, at time of writing, the only way to acquire new skins for mounts; between the Halloween Skins and Mount Adoption, real money - or a massive amount of gold - has been the only method of unlocking these skins, and maybe that's okay. I have no issue with these skins being exclusive to the Gem Store, although I would adore seeing some become available as a result of finishing achievements, completing difficult challenges, collecting in-game currency (reindeer Springer for Winterberries, anyone?), or another means of collection in-game without real money. Again, I am perfectly fine with the Gem Store containing exclusive mount skins, just as it does so many other unique items. As discussed earlier, these items have to be cool and unique, otherwise they will hold no appeal to players.

To conclude, I do feel like this is a poor debut for a system that a lot of players are no doubt going to be excited about. Being able to customize characters is a massive part of Guild Wars 2, and as soon as mounts were announced I watched the community theorize as to how they could customize them to be their own, and how ArenaNet would decide to inevitably monetize them. Hiding this customization behind randomization, I feel, is going to damage ArenaNet's relationship with the Guild Wars 2 community, could potentially harm the future of the game, and - in my opinion - utilizes a hugely controversial but (for now) highly effective system to monetize the player base.

For solutions, I think variety is the spice of life. I'd love to see lots of ways to acquire these skins; mount adoption tickets could be added to Black Lion Chests, the skins themselves could be added to the Chests, and, most crucially, these skins should be directly purchasable. With these extra systems in place, I'd even argue that it would be fine to reintroduce the Mount Adoption as a means of gambling on a mount skin; slash the price down to 100-150 gems, remove the repeat protection (and make them possible to sell to vendors or even salvageable for a tiny amount of gems to help alleviate the blow of rolling poorly), and make it a cheap way to gamble for a skin that the player might not have, and a means of spending leftover gems from other purchases, much like a Black Lion Chest Key. With other systems in place to allow for other means of monetized acquisition (including, again, a way to directly purchase the skins), I feel like these mount skins could not only be an effective means of monetization, but a source of excitement for one of the most passionate communities I've ever been involved in. I, for one, would love to get involved in systems like these to support a developer that I feel has produced some incredible stuff with their community's best interests in mind, to further customize my character, and to get that sweet Canyon Spiketail Raptor. Whoever designed that thing gets a salute from me.

Thanks for reading this, and accepting community feedback!

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@"Hamburger Jack.2543" said:This game is free. This is an optional thing you do not have to do. That's that it's that's literally it there's no "discourse". You do not have to pay for an optional cosmetic item that in no way affects your game play other than Shiny Griffon. I wish I'd seen anywhere near this amount of discussion or outrage over five years with the lack of diversity in this game. But no, mount skins is what sets this community on fire.

NO!THIS GAME IS NOT FREE.We pay for the expansion. The only reason we have the mounts to start with is that we PAYED FOR THE EXPANSION.And payed for the last one, and I payed for one Living World, and I payed for many of the skins and stuff I have.That does not mean that it's okay to gate this in an RNG. I WANT TO PAY for the skins I like, I don't want to ALSO HAVE TO PAY for skins that I don't like and won't use.Especially when I can pay all of this and NOT EVEN GET WHAT I WANT.

Say, I buy 20 of these and I don't get the skin I want, well, shucks to be me, I wasted 8000 gems and did not get what I want.If you see it like this a SINGLE SKIN that I want to use might cost me anything from $5 to $130. Just to get that one skin.

Sure, I will get other skins to but many of them I do not want. I saw them all, at least 20 of those I don't give a damn. And it's okay if I get a few of those when trying to get the one I want, but in the end THERE IS NO GUARANTEE I WILL GET IT unless I pay $130 for it.

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First off, I'd still be hesitant, but a bit more willing, to do the RNG stuff IF it were at like half price for what it currently is. $2.50 US for one roll is a good bit more reasonable to me than a full $5. However, the guaranteed way to get me to buy these mount skins would be letting me pick what I want the way we've done every other gem store weapon and the like in the past. I'd be willing to pay 400 gems for the retextures and slight model tweaks and up to 600-800 gems for the really high end mount skins that have cool particle effects and the like. I hope this will be taken into consideration for how you'll do future skins, as I'm not going to even touch the adoption licenses in their current state.

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I am very disappointed that Anet chose the RNG gamble-box route with the vast majority of mount skins. Mounts were given great reception from the player base and many of us were looking forward to new customization options. Unfortunately, I refuse to gamble. This locks me and many others out of 95% of the available mount customization. Only six skins of 36 available (or 5%) are non-gambling acquisition and none are available as game rewards. Additionally, paying $25 for a single mount skin is too pricey, IMO. I know many people didn't buy the 5-pack Halloween mount skins because they weren't sold separately. So, for many people, mount skins amount to nothing-- and no dollars/euros for Anet!

I don't know if Anet is making enough money from whales to make up for the small-fish spenders or the bad publicity on this one. Maybe this was a planned way to make up for a small expansion price? In my opinion, this was a very bad call, Anet.

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I personally don't like how flamboyant/rainbow/exuberant the skins are, feel like it's pretty cheap how you can get something that is visually that epic through money, and that there aren't really epic, awesome skins we can get through real gameplay. The amount of money needed is a bit crazy, but at the same time I feel like they're too cheap because they should be harder to get.I do like that there were balance changes, that there is new skins, and all of that.

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In other news, you don't have to purchase mount skins. They don't change the experience of the game and give you no advantage over another player. I think it is very often easy to forget that you don't have to have absolutely every skin in the game to be like 1337 pl4yer #1 or whatever

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You have 30 mount skins but they are all released in the same package so RNG is really rough if you want 1 single particular mount skin. The value of what you want might be 400 gems and the cost you might pay could be 9600+ gems.

It would have been nice to have a package for each mount type so your odds are better. It would have also been ok to put them in sets so the odds are better.Another great choice would have been a lower RNG price and a higher "you pick" price.

It would have been amazing if there were an in game cost that is greater than the gem to gold equivalent plus playtime commitment to PoF (currencies, etc).

I'll still buy a few - but with a low chance at the ones I really want - I'll buy fewer. I hope that enough people are in this category with me that ANET considers changing their plans to distribute these mounts.

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The concept of mount skins is a great one. Having to rely on a lottery ticket for the one you want is an issue. There are many folks out there, myself included, who are fine spending gems on cosmetics, but it's tough to want to spend gold or real money on just a chance.

Thanks for listening!

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I'm gonna say…love the skins, hate the RNG.I have blown literal thousands of euros on gems to buy skins, outfits and glider skins. But only because I knew what I was getting for my money. The random loot box aspect, and the "7-days only!" deal to try and push people who want a sure outcome to just buy all of them for 1.5 times the price of Path of Fire Ultimate? Yeah, that's a little exaggerated.Make skins more expensive* if you want to; just let me pick the one I want. I don't want to gamble.

*By "more expensive" I mean something reasonable, say, the price range of Gliders; the 2000 gems price tag (aka barely cheaper than the whole expansion) for a single mount is also utterly preposterous, no matter the added effects.

Another option, if you're going to stick to the loot box route, is to add a mechanism for earning them in-game (and earn them reliably, not through another RNG mechanism), even if it's at a much lower rate (say, weekly or even monthly). I mean, every single game that has loot boxes gives you some loot boxes for playing the game, and offers more for real money purchases. Even GW2's other loot box system (black lion chests/keys) can be acquired by playing, and the gem purchase is just a way to get more rolls faster. So why not do something similar here?

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I'm sure this was already said, but I would very much like to choose which skins to buy. I don't have a lot of money but I've purchased the deluxe version of PoF and already owned HoT before that and I don't have the money to spend on however many I'd need to be able to get the exact skin I want.

I absolutely love some of the more natural mount skins that you've designed. If you were worried people wouldn't want those "boring"skins, well I know a handful of people who would buy those instead of sparkles. I just want to pick which griffon skin I want or the simple jackal skins without the RNG aspect. All of the skins are beautiful but personally I don't want to RNG for simple versus sparkle.

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On the day that Path of Fire released, I was prepared to spend $20-30 for mount skins that I liked, and I was somewhat surprised that they weren't even enabled in the UI yet. At the start of Heart of Thorns we had one alternate glider skin. Now, however, I don't really intend to buy any mount skins if this is the method that you will be distributing them in. I would be happy paying $10-20 for a single mount skin that I liked, so long as I knew what I was getting; I've done it many times in other MMO's. There is no way that I would pay $120 for the guarantee that I will get the skin I want, and at that, only the first round of skins. There will inevitably be more skins in the future, and if those skins are also distributed through the same Mount License, you are going to progressively make it less likely for players to get the skin they actually want. I think this was so jarring to your playerbase because glider skins weren't treated like this, and to us, it seems like selling glider skins was a great success through the gem store. No doubt you have made good profits off of those skins. We had no reason to believe that you would change the system for mounts.

I can understand why it is so tempting to want to follow the Loot Box trend that has absolutely consumed the gaming market in the last couple of years. No doubt preying on people who have poor self control is the best way to make money right now, but I cannot condone that, and I will not buy anything you produce that has been developed with that kind of mentality. You have lost a customer in me until you can show that you are above feeding gambling addictions that frankly should be banned by the ESRB and other national rating systems. Please consider changing this system before it leads you down a road that pushes more of your players away. I want very much for this game to succeed and have patronized it to no end to my friends and any group that I have any influence with, but I can't let that be the case going forward if it means subjecting my friends to more underhanded loot box systems.

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I just wanted to drop in and get out my opinion, so that you devs can see it :)

I'm really wanted that there are mount skins, and while some of them (the fire ones and the ones with a skybox if it would be my decision lol) are a bit overtuned maybe, but I'm actually liking the new skins.

But I want to actually be able to choose which one I'll get. They could probably even be more expensive than the ticket is now (it's your time you're actually investing, so we have to pay for it lol), but please, god, no gamble. We have ecto gambling and black lion chests, that should be enough I guess.

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