@joshc.3129 said:
You all do realize when they "combine" one topic into one official thread that just means they are going to completely ignore it and all feed back on it. Nothing is going to change with it and by the grace of God they do start selling each skin be themselves, I want back the gold I used to get 6 contracts so I can actually get the raptor skins I want.
Given it's hit several "big name" (for a given value in their respective fields) game journalists already, I don't think they'll be able to ignore the skrittstorm forever.
"All publicity is good publicity" then they can pretend to 'care for and value their players views' and come out smelling like roses too, and just before Christmas. What luck. They cant let Blizz hogg the limelight after announcing a new ex pac and classic server.
Let me preface this by describing the kind of player I am -
I'm not against spending money on this game. In fact, I do that rather frequently. I buy outfits. I buy upgrades. I buy all kinds of stuff. Heck, sometimes I even buy black lion keys. I buy dye packs, but I vastly prefer the ones that let you pick a dye over the ones that give you a random set, and prefer the ones that give you a guaranteed rare over ones that don't. I play Fashion Wars 2, because of course I do. I have Ascended gear. I'd like to have and am working toward legendary gear. I do fractals, quests, collections, and all kinds of varied play. I farm stuff. I generally, really enjoy this game.
I enjoy GW2 in particular because ArenaNet seems to care about its players. The game is easy to play, with a ton of quality of life elements that WoW has shamelessly copied over the years, and in general ArenaNet seems to revel in cutting out middlemen and distractions to allow you to just get to playing however you want to play. I think that's awesome and I want to reward that (and I like pretty Fashion Wars 2 because I'm a grown man who apparently likes virtual dress up dolls.... .... shut up don't judge me :P ). I like to put my money where my mouth is, and support people Doing It Right. ArenaNet Did It Right.
To put it mildly, the mount adoption licenses made me angry. I thought about it, though, and I was as angry as I was not because I was just mad about the cost or whatever, not because I wished it were cheaper... but because I was disappointed. I was let down. ArenaNet let me down. The reason is that you gave in to a monetization strategy that in increasingly popular in games these days, but is also underhanded and manipulative. It makes money for the same reason Vegas makes money. It is glorified gambling. I thought my game was better than that. I was really, really let down by ArenaNet, and my anger was just a way to express that disappointment.
But, rather than just dwell on that, what I want to focus on is what I'd like to see you do about it. This isn't a ransom note, I'm not going to hold my continued play time (as though your bottom line depends on one player - I know it very much does not) to you doing what I say, this is just what I think you could or should do to fix what I think you see clearly is a problem. So...
Remove the adoption licenses from the game. Even if they come back in a similar form later, they are at this point tainted and I guarantee there will be players who close the gem store if ever they see adoption licenses go on sale or something.
Add some non-gem store mount skins to the game. Add something you get from a collection, or achievement of some other kind, or whatever - something that's not just (or primarily) $$$.
Take out the mount skins that were just filler. You know which ones I'm talking about - the boring, uninteresting ones that were the "lose" on the roulette wheel of the adoption licenses.
Make mount skins able to be bought directly. It can be for 2 or 3 times as much as whatever is the random loot bag, that's fine, but maybe not 5 times like you have now? That's pretty kitten ridiculous. That's $25 for a mount skin, when it is $7 or $8 for an outfit which is more-or-less the same thing.
Then, and only then, should you put mount skin loot bags back in the game. Ideally, by a means that you can rarely acquire via in-game means, akin to BL Keys.
That is what I'd like to see. I hope to see that or something like it in the near future, and I'm sorry people have directed such hate and bile at you over this. I'm certainly mad, but I've tried to refrain from calling anybody names. You have earned some trust from me, and faith from me, and I have hope you will fix this. I also know SOMEone will argue and say I am just wrong and shouldn't be mad, but, well, I am. Telling me I shouldn't be isn't going to change that. I hope that you do something that does, though.
Thanks,
Not a fan of "Random" when spending money- even so I got the 10 pack and maybe 2 I like. I NEVER shop and let luck purchase for me. Random clothes? Random food? Random books? apply it anywhere you like---its not a great sales model. That said--some of the skins are very cool--others -- meh. So ---honest--very last Random purchase for me. Cheers,
Sut
As far as I like most of arena net dev and rep. this recent mount and sale system set up with intention to get money out of players are really really sickening.
Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.
It's been said many, many times throughout the ~40+ pages of comments before mine here, but really... it's hard to imagine a (realistic) scenario where this could have come off looking more surprisingly greedy and manipulative (at least for Anet, obviously other developers have taken the loot craze and RNG much further). You've consistently tested the willing within your playerbase with various gem store items and bundles over the years, slowly but surely upping the ante, but (as is apparent from the mass outcry) even if many were readily expecting the continuing of such trends, boy did you surprise the vast majority of folks with all of... this. Dropping a bomb of 30 new skins the player is forced to gamble for, skin-by-skin? With zero new skins currently earnable through in-game content? $25 for a SINGLE mount skin is plain laughable (even if it's more than just a re-skin and there are some updates to the model). I find it hard to believe that all of this was imagined to play out well...
My wife and I have dropped our fair share of time and money into the game the past 5 years, and as veteran players just want you to know how shameless these practices and prices appear. This will definitely be a hard hit to the community's goodwill.
I will not spend gems on the RNG mount system. I would spend gems on mounts if and only if I have a 100% chance of getting the mount I want. 2000 gems for the Reforged Warhound is reasonable imo because (1) it adds new visual effects to the engage skill and (2) it's a substantially remodeled (same rig, though, which I don't mind). 400 gems for a reskin and more dye channels is not worth it, especially with the RNG.
Mounts are arguably more useful than Gliders. I haven't purchased a glider because I don't use them as much as I do mounts. I am interested in mount skins, but the RNG and somewhat high price outweighs my interest and will to buy skins.
making the RNG Mount skin based, would still make it rng, I DON'T WANT TO PAY RNG for the mounts, neither do a GREAT amount of people, black lion chests are one thing, but mounts are another that should be selectable, i'm really saddened with the state it got, how much more will we have to endure, the tyrany of RNG, i suggest you guys remove the RNG factor from the mount adoption tickets, and make it mount selectable, and tone the Forged jackal price to 700-1000gems ;x
My problem is that there is no other ways to get skins any way, except a double dip into the paid pool: a RNG lootbox AND a 25$ single skin. Put like 2 of each mounts baser skins in the game for achievements, and either going forward do one of the 2, the adoption RNGness or the priced single bundles. Both is a bit overboard.
@whiteaden.7842 said:
I'm sure something along these lines has been mentioned a few times already, but since I currently don't have time to go through 40+ pages of comments I'll add my own to the mix. (so much negative space inbetween comments, but that's a different kind of feedback)
What concerns me the most about this giant box of RNG skins is the total price tag, and how the only way to get all 31 of the skins through the discounted box (9600 gems); that's 152$ Canadian; that's more than I paid for the ultimate edition of PoF; this is not something that makes me want even try to gamble for this.
Instead, I think this RNG box would do way better if it was cut into the (currently) 5 different mounts... this allows us to gamble with a one-in-six chance to get the skin we want for our mount of choice; instead of one in 30 chance. I appreciate the guarantee that we will unlock one we don't have yet. however that's diminished by the sheer size of the RNG; if I get all 6 raptor skins in a row; I can still only use one at a time, being able to choose which mount the RNG skin is rolled for at least gives us the opportunity to choose some of our choices.
Gambling for 1 of 6 skins is gives us a reasonable "expected result"; if I get lucky I only need to gamble once for the mount skin I like; if I get unlucky I'll gamble 6 times to get the one I want.
To increase the incentive for us to gamble; I would suggest making the "Black Lion Raptor Stable Licence" a growing stable of mount skins, so that our chances decrease every time a new mount skin is added; (4 more raptor mount skins; 1/10 chance, unless you already unlocked some raptor skins) This incentivizes early adopting of the mount skins since your chances remain better with each previous unlock (if I have 3 raptor skins unlocked, my chances are 1/7 instead of 1/10. if I bought all 6 of them early; I'll have a 25% chance to get one of the 4 skins that were added, etc)
this also means that adding mount skins can be done on a mount-by-mount basis; instead of requiring them being released as packs of one-of-each instead. and community suggestions can be taken into account (Kormeerkat is an excellent example of community participation; think of the possibilities of a Community Mount Design Contest)
this is exactly what I'm talking about here... why are we cutting our own throats by telling Anet what the best way is to squeeze more money out of us? I'm not picking on the person here, but this idea of settling for the lesser of 2 evils when there is a third choice of no evil at all, just boggles my mind!
Because this isn't a perfect world, for all we know it's corporate politics forcing the devs to implement a system like this. It would be a lot easier for the devs to print this stuff out to show their overlords things that show a meaningful attempt at a compromise than half a million 'lol no' posts.
You are kidding yourself if you think that the people who pushed for this don't already know about how much players would hate the current implementation. Complaining about it and saying just get rid of the rng isn't going to happen cuz guess what, they would have done that if they could. You don't invent a new system when the current one is working fine. Meaningful alternatives might actually DO something.
I understand it isn't a perfect world... but when did "no... we wont tolerate this" get pulled off the table as an option here? Are other ways and ideas good, yes, to a certain extent.... but all I'm saying here, is there is a third option available to us. Don't give them a dime until they change their policy. I sure as hell wont....
Nope. Gw1 was special- it was original, interesting, and incredibly fun and rewarding. GW2 was never the same.
With this rng kitten, I go. Account deleted, gold sent to strangers.
The entire system for the mount skin purchases is utterly disgusting. I'm VERY upset with Anet and feel quite insulted that I'm only seen as a DOLLAR SIGNS. Shame on you all. You've lost SO many customers/players with this. Good job.......
Logging in just to say that I'd be fine with the lootbox skins if there was some way to also get different skins in-game. Even if it wasn't the skins in the lootboxes, why is it that we have no skin rewards in-game for mount use? Or completing metas, or challenges, or anything besides just throwing down cash? We don't get rewarded for playing the game, just for spending money on it.
When the game first started, Anet was determined to make it so that nobody had to "grind out" for anything that any other player had. They wanted to make a game that was for the casual player, and allowed all players to put in the time and be able to get the "end game" gear that was necessary for level 80 content.
Now, it's become a game of grinding IRL for extra money in order to get to our new endgame: Fashion Wars.
The game no longer has content that gives us a REASON to play it. There is nothing in the game at this point that stacks up to the amazingly detailed, and great looking skins that can be bought from the Gem Store using your money that you make outside of the game. Not even some of the Legendary Weapons and Armor look as good as some of the Gem Store items that we have (War Forge weapons, Outfits, any of the singular pieces of Armor you can get from the gemstore now)
At this point, why even play the game when you can just work for an extra 8 hours, and purchase all of the cool looking perks, instead of wasting your time in the game.
Of course, this eventually leads to the death of any MMO, but for now at least Arenanet is making money. I try to be optimistic about Arenanet, especially after quitting the game for nearly a year after HoT came out, but this just kicks me down another notch and makes me not want to play the game anymore. I know I'm not the only one that feels that way.
Arenanet to me no longer seems to want to give us reasons to play the game. They nerf any sort of way to gain in-game gold and fortunes, and make it exceedingly hard to grind for any end-game content that we feel we want, and consistent nerf rewards for most things (See: PoF Meta Events, Diminishing Returns, Daily-Only/Time Gate Events).
We're forced into completing things over and over for no apparent reason other than to "make us log on everyday" which seems to be a bolster to your stats, but not actually add any FUN to the game.
If Arenanet truly wanted to make the game FUN and give us incentives to revisit old content in the game, and to keep the playerbase alive and healthy, they could follow a few suggestions:
First off, make unique skins a rare drop from any number of the 1000s of unique bosses in the game. Fractals, WvW lords, World Bosses, PvP Reward Tracks, or even just from ambient mobs. The possibilities are endless.
If you wanted to give players a reason to go back to the starting zones of Tyria, and slay the Fire Elemental in Metrica, give them a 1/100 chance of getting a Unique Fire Skimmer skin.
Want to get them to do more Fractals? 1/100 chance of a Mossy Raptor, for killing the Bloomhunger.
Want more people to do WvW? 1/100 chance of a Air Elemental Griffon while killing the Air Keep Lord.
Any of these things are possibilities that Arenanet could do, simply by modifying the drop tables of a few things, and they would give people a reason to continue playing.
Instead they take the simple way out, and introduce a Gem-Only RNG based System for $120 to get 30 Mount Skins.
It just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I understand that a business is a business, and in order to thrive they need money; but at this point it just seems that Arenanet as a whole just doesn't care about the players anymore. They care about making money, and giving us a "high" of a poorly implemented GAMBLING system into the game, and give us a false sense of "success" when we drop $40 and RNG our single skin that we wanted.
If you truly wanted to:
-Make Money
-Make Your Players Happy
-Add New Content
The very LEAST that you could have done was to make each of the skins purchasable as their own. Not a gamble.
I appreciate you taking the time to make this post Galie, and it does truly give me hope that Arenanet is listening; but if this is the path that we're looking to continue down, I will not be continuing with the game.
If you keep the loot boxes, you will lose your player base, and their trust in you.... and all credibility you ever had as a game developer/publisher.
Is this what you want Anet?
I am currently boycotting ALL games which introduce a gambling method involving items which cannot be traded in game, or acquired, in game through simple grinding.... if you want to join my boycotting games list, then keep your loot box system.
Trust me though, you won't ever get another penny from me, or from anyone else who is like minded.
Personally, I don't think I will be able to forgive you for jumping on the "lets rip our player base off, because we are greedy" band-wagon... like so many other game companies have done.
I buy gems. I buy stuff off the gem store. I won't buy a random chance at a mount skin I want, with >$100 to get the one I want.
Here's some options for making this better. Any of these would be fine:
1. Make them tradeable. Make them like gem store dyes where you open the random pack, and then sell the result on the TP if you get one you don't want. That way I can just pay for the exact one I want with gold, or take my chances on a random one if I choose. I don't want to buy all 30 at the current price and I don't want to be stuck with a dumb one if I open one I don't want.
2. Lower the price per chance to 100 gems, and remove the non-unique skins from the options. By non-unique, I mean the ones that are just the regular skin with more dye channels. Those shouldn't be in the gem store. Either let us have more dye channels by default, or let us earn the fancy version in the game, maybe by getting 1st place in the mount races. They're not good enough to sell for $$$.
3. Remove the random element and sell each individual skin for 400 gems, except for the non-unique ones. Again, those shouldn't be on the gem store in the first place. Either give them to us or let us earn them in-game. Or if you really must put them in the gem store, add them as a random drop to BLTC chests (and if you do that, make them tradeable).
4. Make them a random drop from BLTC chest (at a reasonable rarity) and then make opened skin tradeable. Random + not tradeable = bad.
Any of the above options would be less outrage-inducing that what you gave us. I had left the game for a bit but the expansion brought me back. Don't drive me away again with this kind of nonsense.
I'm a return player and I've been back for a little over a month. The Black Lion Trading Company offers many things that I can see myself investing in. I am something of a nomad when it comes to MMOs and I make occasional purchases. As such, I feel like I have a strong grasp on the value of typical cash shop items in MMOs. The first thing that hit me about the Trading Company's stock after returning was that the prices were shockingly high. There are likely reasons for this that aren't purely money-grubbing(I hope), but it raises the expectations of quality and fairness from the Black Lion Trading Company.
I play Maplestory from time to time. Maplestory is infamous for its exploitation of RNG to drain its players of their money. The game is a bundle of fun, but their business model just feels skeevy. They compensate for this by keeping the prices low(for most things) and regularly distributing items from the cash shop during events. If you wait long enough, you can probably get more than what you need without spending a dime.
Based on what I've said so far, the cash shops of Maplestory and Guild Wars 2 are reversed, but consider that the Black Lion Trading Company has contained RNG chests since the beginning, if I remember correctly. This too has been hand-waved away with the promise of quality, but many will find it grating as, despite legal definitions, it is perceived by many players as gambling and, ultimately, unfair.
Based on this knowledge, we can infer that the Black Lion Trading Company and its patrons have had two unspoken contracts of sorts: Price for Quality and RNG for Quality. This balance held steady because the two rarely overlapped(or so I am led to believe by the posts of others and my memories). When both of these contracts are needed for a single purchase, however, tensions become strained. With the random mount skins, many players seem to feel that they are paying a heavy premium for a chance at an item that appears to be lacking in the quality they have come to expect. This perceived breach of etiquette is what I believe is the core behind the outrage over the mount adoption system. Including an expensive(2000 gems) mount skin only serves to fan the flames.
Hopefully, I was clear without stepping on any toes. I'm finding Guild Wars 2 to be fun and I'd hate to antagonize powerful people.
I haven't read all the comments, so I don't know if this has been touched on, but PoF is very bare. Bigger maps are always more difficult, because you have to put more kitten in them. Two months in, I'm bored. I don't have any amazing skins to work towards, no collections I'm hyped to finish, and I spent ten bucks to get two adoption licenses and one was a skin I'll never use, because I genuinely don't like it. What do I do with it now? Know that if I ever put money into the game that I'll never get it again? Screw that. I'm sorry there were people that spent time on those skins, but I don't want them. I want to sell them on the tp and save up to actually buy the skin I want. It's not as if we paid for a kitten expansion with NO SKINS IN IT. For an expansion that boasts the introduction of mounts has very little to do with them.
Give me a collection to work towards that gives me a skin. Give me a gold sink. I'll buy the gems to get gold. Give me the ability to choose. I'd pay ten bucks for the kitten skin I want.
I could probably eventually swallow the price tag, some of these skins are really detailed and incredibly well done. The guaranteed new skin unlock saves the whole getting duplicates to put on tp wherein the skins people want likely drop at 0.05%. However, that pill I could swallow if I had a say in the matter, random loot doesn't have that. If I'm putting that kind of money up for this I want to pick the skins. Put them in BLC if you have to, so long as there's a few (albeit simple ones) in the regular game the rest can be in the BLC for all I care, if I really want them I'll find a way to get them with the methods previously in place. A new RNG box? It's too much, sure you dumped it right on a personal windfall but this kind of thing only works once. This is it, I'm mad at myself enough for having even considered it. Fool me once, shame on me. This time I found a way to justify the cost, I know there won't be a second. There will NOT be a second.
Just, please, random chance is the worst reward for paid content. I could stomach the cost up front for choice. I can live happy grinding away to get the gold to get the gems eventually if I really really want it. But 7 day limit on the reduced cost? It's a 30pk, that's the kind of thing one keeps in a bundle sale in perpetuity. What now? Build on the skins by adding more and more to the random adoption or grossly expensive individual skins? For premium items, just leave it as: I want X, X costs X, I pay X. Sure, eventually I could get the skin(s) I want in the new iteration, but if I'm going into the premium store, I should be able to see the cost of an individual item and get it directly. These aren't trading cards, there isn't a collector's market, I don't go to the grocery store and pay for a random chance at the ramen I want, I buy the ramen I want.
If it's going to be gem store exclusive, either make it a direct buy or put it in the BLC with a few in the game world itself. The Gem Store should be a clear and upfront catalogue, not a roulette table.
I don't mind spending 2000 gems on a skin. I just want to have the right to CHOSE it. I bought 8 vouchers to "adopt" skins and they were very very disappointing. I feel like I've been fooled.
I don't post in the forums, basically ever but.....when I am buying something I want to know what I am getting. I have no problem buying micro-transactions to support a game I enjoy but the random stuff needs to GO! This loot box bull needs to stop. I am running out of game companies to support that don't practice this very bad behavior promoting what in all reality is gambling is not an acceptable practice and just begging some government do-gooder to come and regulate the living kitten out of this industry. Which will end up good for no one.
@Myrdreth.6829 said:
What happens if you already got a certain skin and get it again?
You will get nothing probably, at least in OW and HOTS you get shards/gold which you will use to buy skins.
Nope. Read the description all the way through. It states that you'll get a random skin from among the ones you don't already have. You won't get duplicates, you'll just get one you don't already have.
You'd probably see less hate if there were any other ways to get mount skins. Mounts are new. People have been waiting for ways to customize them. It's reasonable to expect that playing the game might reward some skins. But the only way to upgrade the defaults is with a credit card and some RNG.
I find it hard to believe you didn't see this coming, ANet.
@Ayumi Spender.1082 said:
So I'm in Lion's Arch where a ton of people have those random skins.
From what I'm seeing from this bunch? I'm not seeing a single good mount skin.
Is there a way to see what choices there are without buying the thing? I know the thing say I can right click to see but I kind of refuse to pay for one. Next is, if what I'm seeing are the choices, that is also even more of a reason I would never buy one as they all look atrocious at the moment.
Go into the dropdown and take a look. All of them are now there with padlocks, just like dyes or minis. Click on them to see what they look like.
@nexidecimus.5973 said:
Arenanet, I just have one question. What could have possibly possessed the entire company to go along with this and have not a single individual say "Maybe this is a bad idea. it might kitten some people off." ? edit: wow forum lords are so literal. ok lemme clear this up, i mean all the people who are responsible for letting this happen. as in, the people who actually gave this the green light. not one of them was like "uh, no how about we don't?"
It is a win/win situation for the company. There could be 2 ways out of this situation: 1) Community accepts mount lootboxes -> profit; 2) Community actively rejects lootboxes (what we have now) -> Anet says "Sorry!", removes adoption licences and gets a bunch on praise and good PR as a company that rejected filthy lootbox practices and listened to its audience (as it happened with Dauntless and Monster Hunter World recently). Additionaly they have a profit from all those who were against lootboxes, but couldn't hold themselves and already bought a bunch of them.
A man who came up with this plan is very clever and calculated everything.
This is probably the wrong way to do the unlocks, I'm not against the usage of randomization on principal, but there need to be mitigating mechanics. For example having them not be account bound, allowing rerolls for a price, or the ability to swap it out for another skin with a small premium. As is it only seems like a deliberate choice to force players to buy content they do not want, which is never good.
@GodofSlack.7460 said:
This is probably the wrong way to do the unlocks, I'm not against the usage of randomization on principal, but there need to be mitigating mechanics. For example having them not be account bound, allowing rerolls for a price, or the ability to swap it out for another skin with a small premium. As is it only seems like a deliberate choice to force players to buy content they do not want, which is never good.
agreed... just like cable tv.... they make you buy a package deal and force channels on you that you would otherwise never ever watch or buy....
@Tuskeh.4697 said:
For instance, I recently got a Tequatl's Hoard chest from the World Boss in Sparkfly Fen, which contains the player's choice of one ascended weapon from a selection. These weapons are the highest-tier items in the game. I was ecstatic, leafing through my options like a kid in a candy store. I had an incentive (kill the big dragon knowing that I had a chance to get some cool stuff), a challenge (kill the big dragon with an army of other players), and a reward (big dragon falls into the water, chest of cool stuff). There was an element of randomization here in what loot I got, but once the loot was acquired, the reward was in my hands, and I could define what that reward could be with the weapon selection.
I'm willing to consider siding with people against the mount adoption RNG here but only if they criticize all forms of RNG, and not just specific to gem related RNG. Either all RNG is bad or it's not, and skins that are ONLY available through RNG means should be considered bad as well.
I am much more shocked at practices that gate some content like that, which is RNG AND Timegated AND Account Bound than a few mount skins that have no timegate and very "limited" RNG, and that you can simply farm gold to gems.
Again, if the mount adoption licenses were in gold and sold to an in game merchant not half of the people here would complain, even though it's the exact same problem.
Same with ecto gambling, it is RNG. It involves real money (it's just hidden being a gold amount, but it's basically the same), but people aren't complaining as much, even though it's been in game forever.
Why are people waking up just now? Because they really, really want these skins (unlike BL weapons), and not because there's anything new with how Anet does things.
Though I can understand people disliking RNG in general, RNG with cash-for-virtual-items is not the same problem. From a business perspective, the reason to use RNG (loot boxes, mount licenses, and so forth) is to get people to spend more for an item they want than they would if the item was offered separately at a price the market would bear. This business practice depends on people who: do not analyze the potential cost to get the item(s) they want; have issues with impulse control; and/or make the gambler's assumption that they will get lucky.
As for BL Keys, I've been speaking against those almost as long as they've been in the game. Why are others who may not have taken a stance against BL Keys speaking up now? It's my guess that most everyone expected ANet to put mount skins in the store. Given past ANet practices, it seems reasonable to assume that they would be priced the same as glider skins (or, since mount skins may be more resource-intensive to make, the same as outfits -- which are pretty much the same thing as a mount skin). It also seems likely that a lot of people were waiting for the debut of more mount skins. So, people had expectations -- especially about price. These skins are obtainable via a business model that is likely to be disadvantageous to most consumers. Thus, the complaints.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana
When the Halloween mount skins were a bundle, I was disappointed. But the mount RNG loot-box, and the cost of one individual mount you've introduced to the gem store just puts me into a state of depression.
What was I expecting for mount skins? Well, unfortunately, I already knew you wouldn't introduce skins as in-game rewards since you never did that with gliders, but here is how I expected the Gem Store to look:
Recolored/4 dye channel skins: 400 gems
Skins with particle effects or model changes: 800 gems
Skins with SIGNIFICANT model changes (the Balthazar one for example): 1200 gems
Skins with skeleton/animation changes: 2400 gems
It's insane for me to think you guys wouldn't be making enough money from that pricing scheme to keep GW2 running strong.
@joshc.3129 said:
You all do realize when they "combine" one topic into one official thread that just means they are going to completely ignore it and all feed back on it. Nothing is going to change with it and by the grace of God they do start selling each skin individually, I want back the gold I used to get 6 contracts so I can actually get the raptor skins I want.
That's fine. I'll completely ignore the gem store, then. Not down with this type of predatory marketing.
At this point - even before you start looking at how you are going to resolve RNG pay walls and loot boxes in general (because this isn't the first example) I think a massive turn around in feeling about this could be alleviated by:
Mailing the simple Raptor skin to everyone
Confirm 2 skins from each group of mounts will be earned in game in PoF or a certain amount of the loot boxes can be earned by normal play
Confirm all RNG boxes going forward will contain tradable items not the recent account only option that have been creeping in
The RNG issue in general and increasing lack of in game cosmetics though needs a serious rethink - at least the above will build a bridge in the mean time...
I'm going to come out and say "Good Job on the mount skins, Anet"
I mean that, not in a sarcastic way, but sincerely .
You guys could have just as easily jumbled the skins into the BLTC and just be done with it, but no, it's a separate purchase that guarantees a skin you don't already have, yes, it ultimately means you have to pay $120 for all the skins. But why would you need all those skins?
This was done in a smart way, a lot better then it could have been, like what other mmo's handle this. and I have to give you props for this decision
Make loot boxes obtainable: IE weekly or daily achievements.
Put mounts up seasonally in a cycled system for higher cost. You can buy random tickets any time but to buy specific mount pay 1200 gems when it pops up in gem store.
Make loot boxes mount specific.
Lower Loot box cost considerably.
Replace loot boxes with choose your skin options, and refund players.
Generally I like what you've said, but I definitely will argue against a price of 1200 on the rotational sales. I really don't feel like any skin should be worth more than $10, so I say 800. It also makes it easier to buy, instead of having to buy an odd Gem Pack to get $15 worth of Gems.
But fundamentally, I just don't think you can make RNG have such a vastly cheaper price than the out-right price while having the out-right prices really be used by many at all. If they made each mount $15 (personally, I think based on the "coolness" of each, they should cost 400-800 Gems), then if you have even 10 that you may at some point want to get, it just makes so much more sense to go all in for the RNG and just buy them with that. And that way you get those extra ones that aren't super nice but that are always nice to have (plus it would reduce the pool for RNG if they add more mounts in the future). So there just has to be a balance, and the balance has to be related to the average amount of desirable skins to various players. I mean sure, this may be another tool to manipulate players into just going for the RNG choice, and getting them to spend more because the individual mounts are so expensive, but I really just want to feel good about buying the skins and supporting the game, and at $15/per, I wouldn't feel good about that.
Just my opinion, but wanted to say it.
Is predatory gem store behaviour really a good idea in an MMO that needs a stable player base to remain profitable? I do not think so. People that don't like gambling will feel resentful. People that bought a few contracts and didn't get anything they liked will be resentful. They will share their resentment with their friends, on the forums, on reddit, potentially scaring off future customers.
Youtube has several GW2 personalities already responding to this, generally not in a positive way. Even Jim Sterling, a noted anti-micro transactions crusader jumped on board and covered the issue. This can have a negative effect on future player growth, because people remember the negative way longer than the positive. GW2 is not a multiplayer shooter with a new iteration every year, allowing your marketing department to rehype their public for their new 'game'. These practices will stick to the GW2 name like tar.
In the past many people have posted how they buy gems to support Anet and the game, give positive word of mouth, and are generally willing to overlook minor issues like the loot boxes, since a lot of the negatives from those loot boxes were mitigated due to being able to buy the skins through the TP, etc. You are now undermining that good will with this predatory behaviour. Will you make an initial killing? No doubt.
But I predict you're also damaging the goodwill that's out there, and the positive word of mouth both from players, and from positive Youtube vids. I'm personally stopping with buying gems. That will prevent any urge to gamble (which makes me feel dirty, really) until these adoption contracts are changed to an outright buy per skin.
@Pretty Pixie.8603 said:
Is predatory gem store behaviour really a good idea in an MMO that needs a stable player base to remain profitable? I do not think so. People that don't like gambling will feel resentful. People that bought a few contracts and didn't get anything they liked will be resentful. They will share their resentment with their friends, on the forums, on reddit, potentially scaring off future customers.
Youtube has several GW2 personalities already responding to this, generally not in a positive way. Even Jim Sterling, a noted anti-micro transactions crusader jumped on board and covered the issue. This can have a negative effect on future player growth, because people remember the negative way longer than the positive. GW2 is not a multiplayer shooter with a new iteration every year, allowing your marketing department to rehype their public for their new 'game'. These practices will stick to the GW2 name like tar.
In the past many people have posted how they buy gems to support Anet and the game, give positive word of mouth, and are generally willing to overlook minor issues like the loot boxes, since a lot of the negatives from those loot boxes were mitigated due to being able to buy the skins through the TP, etc. You are now undermining that good will with this predatory behaviour. Will you make an initial killing? No doubt.
But I predict you're also damaging the goodwill that's out there, and the positive word of mouth both from players, and from positive Youtube vids. I'm personally stopping with buying gems. That will prevent any urge to gamble (which makes me feel dirty, really) until these adoption contracts are changed to an outright buy per skin.
I'll do my best to keep this as polite as possible, but seeing what has been presented made me look at Anet as if it were the fabied Nigerian prince that I keep telling to kitten off.
First, lets start with what Anet set as the standard. That would be the Halloween mount set where the price was about 400 gems per mount. 400 gems, with a guarantee of what you were getting.
Now... what did we get presented with?
For 2000, you could get a special mount. Wait, did I say special? I mean a reskined jackel that you were guaranteed to get. I can't say that a 500% increase in cost is something I'd ever consider. There is just the one skin. Nothing for the others, nothing special per race. (And while I don't know this one for fact yet as I have seen zero posts) I doubt that it moves faster, recovers endurance faster, has more porting possibilities, or even more HP to justify this extravagant price. So point blank. Unless the majority of monies gained from such a sale/purchase was going to a charity I support, I will never buy such a mount, ever, at that price.
So lets flip the table now.
For 400, you could get a random mount. Not a random jackel, not a random griffon, not a random skimmer, just a random mount. For the same price that we payed for getting a known mount???
You know I'm fine with BLC being random. I know what I'm getting, there is some guarantee, and some chance. A gamble if you want something directly out of there, sure, but hey... we can also farm such keys in game. But this???
Have any of your managers ever gone and bought something they ride/drive? I want Anet to actually do an internal poll. How many ever said "Get me an automobile for $20,000." You could end up with a truck, jeep, mini, sedan, etc. heck, by that requirement alone you could have a complete ruined car. Nothing said it had to run. So... how many people at anet said they did that. None huh? So why the hell are you doing that to your players? Some of the mechanics in the game that are forced on us is to "mimic real life" as it were. "It would be logical for X to happen to players." While we grumble, we deal. By that same logic, NEVER have I ever seen a player or real person just buy an animal without ever looking it over that they themselves were going to own, ride, etc. And even if they did, they were strict about what they wanted.
And then lets look at that term that anet put on those. Mount ADOPTION. Always in an adoption you know EXACTLY which "being" (as one can adopt both animals and humans) is being adopted. There may be a portfolio of candidates for adoption, but always the adoptee chooses the one they are willing to adopt.
While under legal terms, what anet is offering is not a scam, but to me it sure as heck is a scam. I can't buy a convince I want, but I can buy a CHANCE at a convince that I desire? This has gambling and scam written all over it in my perception.
Heck, what I see here is barter. Anet I charge you with conning players. I can't say that you are conning players into giving you monies because you do have the method built in of converting gold to gems. You have two opening bids now in an attempt to negate your first opening bid.
You have decided to say that 400 to get a directly known mount was too little. So now you have stated, you can spend 2,000 gems for a mount of your choice, or 400 for any random mount out of a set that you don't own yet.
I honestly was expecting something like 400 gems, maybe even 500 gems for a mount of my choosing due to your actual opening offers, and the fact you sell combos of gliders with backpacks for 700.
So this is my counter. 100 gems for a mount of my choosing. (if you actually have a clue, you understand what I'm doing and meaning.)
I'm taking a break. I've moved from anger to depression. It's just hitting me right now at how disappointing this whole rng lootbox had transpired. It really feels like grief, like your best friend just died.
Not gonna read all of these to see if anyone else mentioned it but wanted to offer a couple of thoughts.
1) You obviously have a pipeline for making skins now. Make some themed for some of the metas and put them as tradable drops at a low rate (pls not as low rate as the chak aura thingy as my guild runs that every night and I've yet to see anyone get it). That will incentive new content as rare drops for neat stuff is a big part of why people keep running HOT metas.
2) I spend money on your shop. I wanna support you. Your pricing was off on this push and you've kicked a hornets nest. Make amends quickly. 200-300 I would think would be better for the random route if you really wanna go that way. The standalone single skin for 2k is way high.
3) Make a 6th anniversary skin for next year for long time players with a pick one like the weapons skins and back skins. It's a good long term incentive.
4) Make at least one skin unlocked by content with new living story episodes
If you really want to keep the lootbox structure for mounts, lower the price per roll to the price of Black Lion keys, and enable skins to be put on the trading post. I think that is a good middle ground.
Mounts just came out, but the first pair of skins came in a bundle only, where you can't even buy any of them individually "which is uncommon and pretty unfavorable to most players" and now the second wave of mount skins come out and it's even more outrageous with the RNG Factor. Personally the Gem Store is adding more RNG than ever before, and I'm disliking it; I know I don't have to buy it and, I don't but in my opinion It's starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth and pushing me more and more to keep focus on other games other than GW2 to rid of possibly getting into that gem store shenanigans.
PS: In the Gem Store I've never bought Chest Keys with my own gems, but now there's unobtainable stuff in the Black Lion Chest, that cannot be traded so that's more of a reason for me to not buy it; mostly because I'm not interested in RNG and I don't support it. I buy a lot of bag slots, couple character slots, some other stuff and I love it because I don't have to roll a die to get what I want.
Edit: Reading other opinions and thinking about it myself, It's very true that I very much didn't mind shelling out some money for this game and it's hard-working staff because it's very unique and likable at that. But putting more and more of this type of RNG in your gem store is making me less and less trusting of the game and the gem store.
I'd think fixing this mess up would be ANet's priority 1 at the moment but as far as I can tell there isn't a peep from ANet about how upset people are on this.
If they are worried about overloading the gem store by allowing people to choose the skins they want then they could do it from the mount skin section of the hero panel. They could make it so we could just click on a skin you want and buy it with gems there. We can already buy bag slot expansions outside of the gem store from the Inventory Panel.
Let's talk about the audience/customer base for mount skins - and let's keep in mind anyone buying a mount skin is already a paying customer, because they bought Path of Fire.
Completionists will be unhappy because $120 for all 30 skins is a very high asking price for a single purchase. Can you even buy that many gems at once through the UI? Maybe that's fine because being a completionist in this game is already a quick route to bankruptcy.
Folks who want a cheap/plain skin to match their armor will be unhappy because the cost of the raffle ticket has to account for the chance of pulling a "chase" skin, and even then they might not get the particular skin they want. They might not even be happy if they end up with a flashy skin because it doesn't match their aesthetic - the particle effects are not for everyone.
Folks who want a "chase" skin with shiny particle effects will probably be unhappy because they're forced to keep rolling dice until they get the one they're after. A select few will only spend $5 and have a great time, everyone else gets to sulk - it has the potential to make the 2000 gem jackal look generous in comparison.
Folks who just want something new and don't care what it is are happy, I guess. They pay $5 and get to use a single new mount. Maybe it's a mount they use a lot, maybe it isn't. Is this a large segment? I imagine the previous three buckets are much larger.
Who "wins" here except for ArenaNet? Are any of the customers truly satisfied except the ones that are already accustomed to huge gem store purchases and can rationalize $120 to themselves, or those with enough gold to buy it outright with ingame currency?
Usually when I spend money on gaming I walk away feeling happy and like I got good value for my dollar. With this price structure I walk away feeling like I just got out of a car dealership - ultimately maybe I bought something but it was an unpleasant experience and I'm not in a hurry to go back.
@nastyjman.8207 said:
I'm taking a break. I've moved from anger to depression. It's just hitting me right now at how disappointing this whole rng lootbox had transpired. It really feels like grief, like your best friend just died.
Aw. Is there anything I can do for you? Being depressed is no fun at all, if you need to talk, please PM me. ^_^
There is a reason the old paths are behind us; the only way we can see what's in front of us is to look forward and remember why the old paths were left behind. Resident Hug Addict and Fire Extinguisher
@nexidecimus.5973 said:
Arenanet, I just have one question. What could have possibly possessed the entire company to go along with this and have not a single individual say "Maybe this is a bad idea. it might kitten some people off." ? edit: wow forum lords are so literal. ok lemme clear this up, i mean all the people who are responsible for letting this happen. as in, the people who actually gave this the green light. not one of them was like "uh, no how about we don't?"
It is a win/win situation for the company. There could be 2 ways out of this situation: 1) Community accepts mount lootboxes -> profit; 2) Community actively rejects lootboxes (what we have now) -> Anet says "Sorry!", removes adoption licences and gets a bunch on praise and good PR as a company that rejected filthy lootbox practices and listened to its audience (as it happened with Dauntless and Monster Hunter World recently). Additionaly they have a profit from all those who were against lootboxes, but couldn't hold themselves and already bought a bunch of them.
A man who came up with this plan is very clever and calculated everything.
This.
It's not about "making gw2 great again"
Its not about "supporting gw2" like they're a mom and pop lemonade stand.
It's not about "wont anyone think about the poor starving Anet employees"
It's not about "what's a fair price"
It's not about "giving people new and exciting ways to play"
It's about money. Maximising profits.
Anet could have easily given away a bunch of skins with the ex pac. It's about seeing how much of the content can be monetized.
Can, should, legal and fair are not synonymous. It's a product. Either you're willing to buy into it or you're not. Even F2P players are buying into it without spending a single penny. Ghost town mmo's don't work and you can't show off if there's no audience. Anet and NCsoft know what makes them money so you can expect a lot more of this type of grind or pay, RNG, loot box, gated content business model whether you like it or not.
I'm really to se A-Net follow what they started with the BL Keys in a feature FAR more requested/expected than random skins. Those at least competed with TONS of other skins that could be bought directly via the Black Lion market AND all the "free" ones you get from playing. ("free" because Im a beta player who pre - ordered the game and both expansions)
Heck, I -as most of the community- expected a "Glider" model to the mounts, with reasonable prices AND non gambling purchases if you want to pay for gems / grind them.
But this? I certainly didn't expect this. And I wont support a game with this kind of predatory mechanics anymore. I'm kitten burned by this lootbox kitten that AAA company's are pushing out and will continue voting with my wallet against it.
PS and Edit: Heck even using the glider prices it means TONS of more money as you will want probably a skin for each mount! I cant fathom the greed that its needed to make this kind of decisions on top.
I would have bought several of these skins were it not for the ridiculous RNG element. On the other hand, you did make it easier for me to pull the trigger on buying ELEX, so thanks I guess?
I have no issue spending my money to support to Anet, I have been with you since Factions. I think the new mount skins are lovely. But I want to spend my money on what I want. If I liked one or two skins, you could force me to drop $100+ just for one item? That is horrid and you should be ashamed. What really ticks me off, however, is the fact that you dump in all these wonderful skins only a little over a month after an expansion pack is released with no way to get any in game. You know when the consumers get upset when a game releases with immediate DLC? Same issue here. This is a huge slap in the face to us consumers. You will not be getting a penny out of me until this is addressed, and with the current rate of locking skins behind RNG loot boxes and expecting us to drop money for a chance to get it is complete ludicrous.
Let me be clear; I would have no problem dropping 400 gems on a skin for a mount that I like. I've grown to accept that this company will prioritize getting money from us. For a free to play game, its to be expected that skins will be added and purchased. But this is an absolute shameless money grab.
I'm wondering, will the new weapons from the design a weapon contest be Black Lion Chest exclusive too?
Comments
"All publicity is good publicity" then they can pretend to 'care for and value their players views' and come out smelling like roses too, and just before Christmas. What luck. They cant let Blizz hogg the limelight after announcing a new ex pac and classic server.
Let me preface this by describing the kind of player I am -
I'm not against spending money on this game. In fact, I do that rather frequently. I buy outfits. I buy upgrades. I buy all kinds of stuff. Heck, sometimes I even buy black lion keys. I buy dye packs, but I vastly prefer the ones that let you pick a dye over the ones that give you a random set, and prefer the ones that give you a guaranteed rare over ones that don't. I play Fashion Wars 2, because of course I do. I have Ascended gear. I'd like to have and am working toward legendary gear. I do fractals, quests, collections, and all kinds of varied play. I farm stuff. I generally, really enjoy this game.
I enjoy GW2 in particular because ArenaNet seems to care about its players. The game is easy to play, with a ton of quality of life elements that WoW has shamelessly copied over the years, and in general ArenaNet seems to revel in cutting out middlemen and distractions to allow you to just get to playing however you want to play. I think that's awesome and I want to reward that (and I like pretty Fashion Wars 2 because I'm a grown man who apparently likes virtual dress up dolls.... .... shut up don't judge me :P ). I like to put my money where my mouth is, and support people Doing It Right. ArenaNet Did It Right.
To put it mildly, the mount adoption licenses made me angry. I thought about it, though, and I was as angry as I was not because I was just mad about the cost or whatever, not because I wished it were cheaper... but because I was disappointed. I was let down. ArenaNet let me down. The reason is that you gave in to a monetization strategy that in increasingly popular in games these days, but is also underhanded and manipulative. It makes money for the same reason Vegas makes money. It is glorified gambling. I thought my game was better than that. I was really, really let down by ArenaNet, and my anger was just a way to express that disappointment.
But, rather than just dwell on that, what I want to focus on is what I'd like to see you do about it. This isn't a ransom note, I'm not going to hold my continued play time (as though your bottom line depends on one player - I know it very much does not) to you doing what I say, this is just what I think you could or should do to fix what I think you see clearly is a problem. So...
That is what I'd like to see. I hope to see that or something like it in the near future, and I'm sorry people have directed such hate and bile at you over this. I'm certainly mad, but I've tried to refrain from calling anybody names. You have earned some trust from me, and faith from me, and I have hope you will fix this. I also know SOMEone will argue and say I am just wrong and shouldn't be mad, but, well, I am. Telling me I shouldn't be isn't going to change that. I hope that you do something that does, though.
Thanks,
Not a fan of "Random" when spending money- even so I got the 10 pack and maybe 2 I like. I NEVER shop and let luck purchase for me. Random clothes? Random food? Random books? apply it anywhere you like---its not a great sales model. That said--some of the skins are very cool--others -- meh. So ---honest--very last Random purchase for me. Cheers,
Sut
As far as I like most of arena net dev and rep. this recent mount and sale system set up with intention to get money out of players are really really sickening.
Death is Energy [DIE] in EU
Envoy's Herald, EAoA, CoZ, VitV, DD, SS, The Eternal, LNHB, Champion Magus, Champion Phantom, Wondrous Achiever etc.
It's been said many, many times throughout the ~40+ pages of comments before mine here, but really... it's hard to imagine a (realistic) scenario where this could have come off looking more surprisingly greedy and manipulative (at least for Anet, obviously other developers have taken the loot craze and RNG much further). You've consistently tested the willing within your playerbase with various gem store items and bundles over the years, slowly but surely upping the ante, but (as is apparent from the mass outcry) even if many were readily expecting the continuing of such trends, boy did you surprise the vast majority of folks with all of... this. Dropping a bomb of 30 new skins the player is forced to gamble for, skin-by-skin? With zero new skins currently earnable through in-game content? $25 for a SINGLE mount skin is plain laughable (even if it's more than just a re-skin and there are some updates to the model). I find it hard to believe that all of this was imagined to play out well...
My wife and I have dropped our fair share of time and money into the game the past 5 years, and as veteran players just want you to know how shameless these practices and prices appear. This will definitely be a hard hit to the community's goodwill.
I will not spend gems on the RNG mount system. I would spend gems on mounts if and only if I have a 100% chance of getting the mount I want. 2000 gems for the Reforged Warhound is reasonable imo because (1) it adds new visual effects to the engage skill and (2) it's a substantially remodeled (same rig, though, which I don't mind). 400 gems for a reskin and more dye channels is not worth it, especially with the RNG.
Mounts are arguably more useful than Gliders. I haven't purchased a glider because I don't use them as much as I do mounts. I am interested in mount skins, but the RNG and somewhat high price outweighs my interest and will to buy skins.
0/10 for the implementation of mount skins.
making the RNG Mount skin based, would still make it rng, I DON'T WANT TO PAY RNG for the mounts, neither do a GREAT amount of people, black lion chests are one thing, but mounts are another that should be selectable, i'm really saddened with the state it got, how much more will we have to endure, the tyrany of RNG, i suggest you guys remove the RNG factor from the mount adoption tickets, and make it mount selectable, and tone the Forged jackal price to 700-1000gems ;x
My problem is that there is no other ways to get skins any way, except a double dip into the paid pool: a RNG lootbox AND a 25$ single skin. Put like 2 of each mounts baser skins in the game for achievements, and either going forward do one of the 2, the adoption RNGness or the priced single bundles. Both is a bit overboard.
I understand it isn't a perfect world... but when did "no... we wont tolerate this" get pulled off the table as an option here? Are other ways and ideas good, yes, to a certain extent.... but all I'm saying here, is there is a third option available to us. Don't give them a dime until they change their policy. I sure as hell wont....
Nope. Gw1 was special- it was original, interesting, and incredibly fun and rewarding. GW2 was never the same.
With this rng kitten, I go. Account deleted, gold sent to strangers.
Never ever getting another cent from me until you change this. How could you even think that this was a good idea. Just awful.
The entire system for the mount skin purchases is utterly disgusting. I'm VERY upset with Anet and feel quite insulted that I'm only seen as a DOLLAR SIGNS. Shame on you all. You've lost SO many customers/players with this. Good job.......
Logging in just to say that I'd be fine with the lootbox skins if there was some way to also get different skins in-game. Even if it wasn't the skins in the lootboxes, why is it that we have no skin rewards in-game for mount use? Or completing metas, or challenges, or anything besides just throwing down cash? We don't get rewarded for playing the game, just for spending money on it.
RNG sucks, period. Also the skins are too expensive.
When the game first started, Anet was determined to make it so that nobody had to "grind out" for anything that any other player had. They wanted to make a game that was for the casual player, and allowed all players to put in the time and be able to get the "end game" gear that was necessary for level 80 content.
Now, it's become a game of grinding IRL for extra money in order to get to our new endgame: Fashion Wars.
The game no longer has content that gives us a REASON to play it. There is nothing in the game at this point that stacks up to the amazingly detailed, and great looking skins that can be bought from the Gem Store using your money that you make outside of the game. Not even some of the Legendary Weapons and Armor look as good as some of the Gem Store items that we have (War Forge weapons, Outfits, any of the singular pieces of Armor you can get from the gemstore now)
At this point, why even play the game when you can just work for an extra 8 hours, and purchase all of the cool looking perks, instead of wasting your time in the game.
Of course, this eventually leads to the death of any MMO, but for now at least Arenanet is making money. I try to be optimistic about Arenanet, especially after quitting the game for nearly a year after HoT came out, but this just kicks me down another notch and makes me not want to play the game anymore. I know I'm not the only one that feels that way.
Arenanet to me no longer seems to want to give us reasons to play the game. They nerf any sort of way to gain in-game gold and fortunes, and make it exceedingly hard to grind for any end-game content that we feel we want, and consistent nerf rewards for most things (See: PoF Meta Events, Diminishing Returns, Daily-Only/Time Gate Events).
We're forced into completing things over and over for no apparent reason other than to "make us log on everyday" which seems to be a bolster to your stats, but not actually add any FUN to the game.
If Arenanet truly wanted to make the game FUN and give us incentives to revisit old content in the game, and to keep the playerbase alive and healthy, they could follow a few suggestions:
First off, make unique skins a rare drop from any number of the 1000s of unique bosses in the game. Fractals, WvW lords, World Bosses, PvP Reward Tracks, or even just from ambient mobs. The possibilities are endless.
If you wanted to give players a reason to go back to the starting zones of Tyria, and slay the Fire Elemental in Metrica, give them a 1/100 chance of getting a Unique Fire Skimmer skin.
Want to get them to do more Fractals? 1/100 chance of a Mossy Raptor, for killing the Bloomhunger.
Want more people to do WvW? 1/100 chance of a Air Elemental Griffon while killing the Air Keep Lord.
Any of these things are possibilities that Arenanet could do, simply by modifying the drop tables of a few things, and they would give people a reason to continue playing.
Instead they take the simple way out, and introduce a Gem-Only RNG based System for $120 to get 30 Mount Skins.
It just doesn't make sense to me anymore. I understand that a business is a business, and in order to thrive they need money; but at this point it just seems that Arenanet as a whole just doesn't care about the players anymore. They care about making money, and giving us a "high" of a poorly implemented GAMBLING system into the game, and give us a false sense of "success" when we drop $40 and RNG our single skin that we wanted.
If you truly wanted to:
-Make Money
-Make Your Players Happy
-Add New Content
The very LEAST that you could have done was to make each of the skins purchasable as their own. Not a gamble.
I appreciate you taking the time to make this post Galie, and it does truly give me hope that Arenanet is listening; but if this is the path that we're looking to continue down, I will not be continuing with the game.
It's simple really...
If you keep the loot boxes, you will lose your player base, and their trust in you.... and all credibility you ever had as a game developer/publisher.
Is this what you want Anet?
I am currently boycotting ALL games which introduce a gambling method involving items which cannot be traded in game, or acquired, in game through simple grinding.... if you want to join my boycotting games list, then keep your loot box system.
Trust me though, you won't ever get another penny from me, or from anyone else who is like minded.
Personally, I don't think I will be able to forgive you for jumping on the "lets rip our player base off, because we are greedy" band-wagon... like so many other game companies have done.
I buy gems. I buy stuff off the gem store. I won't buy a random chance at a mount skin I want, with >$100 to get the one I want.
Here's some options for making this better. Any of these would be fine:
1. Make them tradeable. Make them like gem store dyes where you open the random pack, and then sell the result on the TP if you get one you don't want. That way I can just pay for the exact one I want with gold, or take my chances on a random one if I choose. I don't want to buy all 30 at the current price and I don't want to be stuck with a dumb one if I open one I don't want.
2. Lower the price per chance to 100 gems, and remove the non-unique skins from the options. By non-unique, I mean the ones that are just the regular skin with more dye channels. Those shouldn't be in the gem store. Either let us have more dye channels by default, or let us earn the fancy version in the game, maybe by getting 1st place in the mount races. They're not good enough to sell for $$$.
3. Remove the random element and sell each individual skin for 400 gems, except for the non-unique ones. Again, those shouldn't be on the gem store in the first place. Either give them to us or let us earn them in-game. Or if you really must put them in the gem store, add them as a random drop to BLTC chests (and if you do that, make them tradeable).
4. Make them a random drop from BLTC chest (at a reasonable rarity) and then make opened skin tradeable. Random + not tradeable = bad.
Any of the above options would be less outrage-inducing that what you gave us. I had left the game for a bit but the expansion brought me back. Don't drive me away again with this kind of nonsense.
I'm a return player and I've been back for a little over a month. The Black Lion Trading Company offers many things that I can see myself investing in. I am something of a nomad when it comes to MMOs and I make occasional purchases. As such, I feel like I have a strong grasp on the value of typical cash shop items in MMOs. The first thing that hit me about the Trading Company's stock after returning was that the prices were shockingly high. There are likely reasons for this that aren't purely money-grubbing(I hope), but it raises the expectations of quality and fairness from the Black Lion Trading Company.
I play Maplestory from time to time. Maplestory is infamous for its exploitation of RNG to drain its players of their money. The game is a bundle of fun, but their business model just feels skeevy. They compensate for this by keeping the prices low(for most things) and regularly distributing items from the cash shop during events. If you wait long enough, you can probably get more than what you need without spending a dime.
Based on what I've said so far, the cash shops of Maplestory and Guild Wars 2 are reversed, but consider that the Black Lion Trading Company has contained RNG chests since the beginning, if I remember correctly. This too has been hand-waved away with the promise of quality, but many will find it grating as, despite legal definitions, it is perceived by many players as gambling and, ultimately, unfair.
Based on this knowledge, we can infer that the Black Lion Trading Company and its patrons have had two unspoken contracts of sorts: Price for Quality and RNG for Quality. This balance held steady because the two rarely overlapped(or so I am led to believe by the posts of others and my memories). When both of these contracts are needed for a single purchase, however, tensions become strained. With the random mount skins, many players seem to feel that they are paying a heavy premium for a chance at an item that appears to be lacking in the quality they have come to expect. This perceived breach of etiquette is what I believe is the core behind the outrage over the mount adoption system. Including an expensive(2000 gems) mount skin only serves to fan the flames.
Hopefully, I was clear without stepping on any toes. I'm finding Guild Wars 2 to be fun and I'd hate to antagonize powerful people.
I haven't read all the comments, so I don't know if this has been touched on, but PoF is very bare. Bigger maps are always more difficult, because you have to put more kitten in them. Two months in, I'm bored. I don't have any amazing skins to work towards, no collections I'm hyped to finish, and I spent ten bucks to get two adoption licenses and one was a skin I'll never use, because I genuinely don't like it. What do I do with it now? Know that if I ever put money into the game that I'll never get it again? Screw that. I'm sorry there were people that spent time on those skins, but I don't want them. I want to sell them on the tp and save up to actually buy the skin I want. It's not as if we paid for a kitten expansion with NO SKINS IN IT. For an expansion that boasts the introduction of mounts has very little to do with them.
Give me a collection to work towards that gives me a skin. Give me a gold sink. I'll buy the gems to get gold. Give me the ability to choose. I'd pay ten bucks for the kitten skin I want.
Give us something other than this kitten.
I could probably eventually swallow the price tag, some of these skins are really detailed and incredibly well done. The guaranteed new skin unlock saves the whole getting duplicates to put on tp wherein the skins people want likely drop at 0.05%. However, that pill I could swallow if I had a say in the matter, random loot doesn't have that. If I'm putting that kind of money up for this I want to pick the skins. Put them in BLC if you have to, so long as there's a few (albeit simple ones) in the regular game the rest can be in the BLC for all I care, if I really want them I'll find a way to get them with the methods previously in place. A new RNG box? It's too much, sure you dumped it right on a personal windfall but this kind of thing only works once. This is it, I'm mad at myself enough for having even considered it. Fool me once, shame on me. This time I found a way to justify the cost, I know there won't be a second. There will NOT be a second.
Just, please, random chance is the worst reward for paid content. I could stomach the cost up front for choice. I can live happy grinding away to get the gold to get the gems eventually if I really really want it. But 7 day limit on the reduced cost? It's a 30pk, that's the kind of thing one keeps in a bundle sale in perpetuity. What now? Build on the skins by adding more and more to the random adoption or grossly expensive individual skins? For premium items, just leave it as: I want X, X costs X, I pay X. Sure, eventually I could get the skin(s) I want in the new iteration, but if I'm going into the premium store, I should be able to see the cost of an individual item and get it directly. These aren't trading cards, there isn't a collector's market, I don't go to the grocery store and pay for a random chance at the ramen I want, I buy the ramen I want.
If it's going to be gem store exclusive, either make it a direct buy or put it in the BLC with a few in the game world itself. The Gem Store should be a clear and upfront catalogue, not a roulette table.
I don't mind spending 2000 gems on a skin. I just want to have the right to CHOSE it. I bought 8 vouchers to "adopt" skins and they were very very disappointing. I feel like I've been fooled.
I don't post in the forums, basically ever but.....when I am buying something I want to know what I am getting. I have no problem buying micro-transactions to support a game I enjoy but the random stuff needs to GO! This loot box bull needs to stop. I am running out of game companies to support that don't practice this very bad behavior promoting what in all reality is gambling is not an acceptable practice and just begging some government do-gooder to come and regulate the living kitten out of this industry. Which will end up good for no one.
Nope. Read the description all the way through. It states that you'll get a random skin from among the ones you don't already have. You won't get duplicates, you'll just get one you don't already have.
You'd probably see less hate if there were any other ways to get mount skins. Mounts are new. People have been waiting for ways to customize them. It's reasonable to expect that playing the game might reward some skins. But the only way to upgrade the defaults is with a credit card and some RNG.
I find it hard to believe you didn't see this coming, ANet.
Go into the dropdown and take a look. All of them are now there with padlocks, just like dyes or minis. Click on them to see what they look like.
It is a win/win situation for the company. There could be 2 ways out of this situation: 1) Community accepts mount lootboxes -> profit; 2) Community actively rejects lootboxes (what we have now) -> Anet says "Sorry!", removes adoption licences and gets a bunch on praise and good PR as a company that rejected filthy lootbox practices and listened to its audience (as it happened with Dauntless and Monster Hunter World recently). Additionaly they have a profit from all those who were against lootboxes, but couldn't hold themselves and already bought a bunch of them.
A man who came up with this plan is very clever and calculated everything.
This is probably the wrong way to do the unlocks, I'm not against the usage of randomization on principal, but there need to be mitigating mechanics. For example having them not be account bound, allowing rerolls for a price, or the ability to swap it out for another skin with a small premium. As is it only seems like a deliberate choice to force players to buy content they do not want, which is never good.
agreed... just like cable tv.... they make you buy a package deal and force channels on you that you would otherwise never ever watch or buy....
Though I can understand people disliking RNG in general, RNG with cash-for-virtual-items is not the same problem. From a business perspective, the reason to use RNG (loot boxes, mount licenses, and so forth) is to get people to spend more for an item they want than they would if the item was offered separately at a price the market would bear. This business practice depends on people who: do not analyze the potential cost to get the item(s) they want; have issues with impulse control; and/or make the gambler's assumption that they will get lucky.
As for BL Keys, I've been speaking against those almost as long as they've been in the game. Why are others who may not have taken a stance against BL Keys speaking up now? It's my guess that most everyone expected ANet to put mount skins in the store. Given past ANet practices, it seems reasonable to assume that they would be priced the same as glider skins (or, since mount skins may be more resource-intensive to make, the same as outfits -- which are pretty much the same thing as a mount skin). It also seems likely that a lot of people were waiting for the debut of more mount skins. So, people had expectations -- especially about price. These skins are obtainable via a business model that is likely to be disadvantageous to most consumers. Thus, the complaints.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana
When the Halloween mount skins were a bundle, I was disappointed. But the mount RNG loot-box, and the cost of one individual mount you've introduced to the gem store just puts me into a state of depression.
What was I expecting for mount skins? Well, unfortunately, I already knew you wouldn't introduce skins as in-game rewards since you never did that with gliders, but here is how I expected the Gem Store to look:
It's insane for me to think you guys wouldn't be making enough money from that pricing scheme to keep GW2 running strong.
That's fine. I'll completely ignore the gem store, then. Not down with this type of predatory marketing.
At this point - even before you start looking at how you are going to resolve RNG pay walls and loot boxes in general (because this isn't the first example) I think a massive turn around in feeling about this could be alleviated by:
The RNG issue in general and increasing lack of in game cosmetics though needs a serious rethink - at least the above will build a bridge in the mean time...
I'm going to come out and say "Good Job on the mount skins, Anet"
I mean that, not in a sarcastic way, but sincerely .
You guys could have just as easily jumbled the skins into the BLTC and just be done with it, but no, it's a separate purchase that guarantees a skin you don't already have, yes, it ultimately means you have to pay $120 for all the skins. But why would you need all those skins?
This was done in a smart way, a lot better then it could have been, like what other mmo's handle this. and I have to give you props for this decision
Generally I like what you've said, but I definitely will argue against a price of 1200 on the rotational sales. I really don't feel like any skin should be worth more than $10, so I say 800. It also makes it easier to buy, instead of having to buy an odd Gem Pack to get $15 worth of Gems.
But fundamentally, I just don't think you can make RNG have such a vastly cheaper price than the out-right price while having the out-right prices really be used by many at all. If they made each mount $15 (personally, I think based on the "coolness" of each, they should cost 400-800 Gems), then if you have even 10 that you may at some point want to get, it just makes so much more sense to go all in for the RNG and just buy them with that. And that way you get those extra ones that aren't super nice but that are always nice to have (plus it would reduce the pool for RNG if they add more mounts in the future). So there just has to be a balance, and the balance has to be related to the average amount of desirable skins to various players. I mean sure, this may be another tool to manipulate players into just going for the RNG choice, and getting them to spend more because the individual mounts are so expensive, but I really just want to feel good about buying the skins and supporting the game, and at $15/per, I wouldn't feel good about that.
Just my opinion, but wanted to say it.
Is predatory gem store behaviour really a good idea in an MMO that needs a stable player base to remain profitable? I do not think so. People that don't like gambling will feel resentful. People that bought a few contracts and didn't get anything they liked will be resentful. They will share their resentment with their friends, on the forums, on reddit, potentially scaring off future customers.
Youtube has several GW2 personalities already responding to this, generally not in a positive way. Even Jim Sterling, a noted anti-micro transactions crusader jumped on board and covered the issue. This can have a negative effect on future player growth, because people remember the negative way longer than the positive. GW2 is not a multiplayer shooter with a new iteration every year, allowing your marketing department to rehype their public for their new 'game'. These practices will stick to the GW2 name like tar.
In the past many people have posted how they buy gems to support Anet and the game, give positive word of mouth, and are generally willing to overlook minor issues like the loot boxes, since a lot of the negatives from those loot boxes were mitigated due to being able to buy the skins through the TP, etc. You are now undermining that good will with this predatory behaviour. Will you make an initial killing? No doubt.
But I predict you're also damaging the goodwill that's out there, and the positive word of mouth both from players, and from positive Youtube vids. I'm personally stopping with buying gems. That will prevent any urge to gamble (which makes me feel dirty, really) until these adoption contracts are changed to an outright buy per skin.
Pix
Ordo Dominican [ZEAL]
Sea of Sorrows
Reddit link with dulfy calling out anet on this
I'll do my best to keep this as polite as possible, but seeing what has been presented made me look at Anet as if it were the fabied Nigerian prince that I keep telling to kitten off.
First, lets start with what Anet set as the standard. That would be the Halloween mount set where the price was about 400 gems per mount. 400 gems, with a guarantee of what you were getting.
Now... what did we get presented with?
For 2000, you could get a special mount. Wait, did I say special? I mean a reskined jackel that you were guaranteed to get. I can't say that a 500% increase in cost is something I'd ever consider. There is just the one skin. Nothing for the others, nothing special per race. (And while I don't know this one for fact yet as I have seen zero posts) I doubt that it moves faster, recovers endurance faster, has more porting possibilities, or even more HP to justify this extravagant price. So point blank. Unless the majority of monies gained from such a sale/purchase was going to a charity I support, I will never buy such a mount, ever, at that price.
So lets flip the table now.
For 400, you could get a random mount. Not a random jackel, not a random griffon, not a random skimmer, just a random mount. For the same price that we payed for getting a known mount???
You know I'm fine with BLC being random. I know what I'm getting, there is some guarantee, and some chance. A gamble if you want something directly out of there, sure, but hey... we can also farm such keys in game. But this???
Have any of your managers ever gone and bought something they ride/drive? I want Anet to actually do an internal poll. How many ever said "Get me an automobile for $20,000." You could end up with a truck, jeep, mini, sedan, etc. heck, by that requirement alone you could have a complete ruined car. Nothing said it had to run. So... how many people at anet said they did that. None huh? So why the hell are you doing that to your players? Some of the mechanics in the game that are forced on us is to "mimic real life" as it were. "It would be logical for X to happen to players." While we grumble, we deal. By that same logic, NEVER have I ever seen a player or real person just buy an animal without ever looking it over that they themselves were going to own, ride, etc. And even if they did, they were strict about what they wanted.
And then lets look at that term that anet put on those. Mount ADOPTION. Always in an adoption you know EXACTLY which "being" (as one can adopt both animals and humans) is being adopted. There may be a portfolio of candidates for adoption, but always the adoptee chooses the one they are willing to adopt.
While under legal terms, what anet is offering is not a scam, but to me it sure as heck is a scam. I can't buy a convince I want, but I can buy a CHANCE at a convince that I desire? This has gambling and scam written all over it in my perception.
Heck, what I see here is barter. Anet I charge you with conning players. I can't say that you are conning players into giving you monies because you do have the method built in of converting gold to gems. You have two opening bids now in an attempt to negate your first opening bid.
You have decided to say that 400 to get a directly known mount was too little. So now you have stated, you can spend 2,000 gems for a mount of your choice, or 400 for any random mount out of a set that you don't own yet.
I honestly was expecting something like 400 gems, maybe even 500 gems for a mount of my choosing due to your actual opening offers, and the fact you sell combos of gliders with backpacks for 700.
So this is my counter. 100 gems for a mount of my choosing. (if you actually have a clue, you understand what I'm doing and meaning.)
I'm taking a break. I've moved from anger to depression. It's just hitting me right now at how disappointing this whole rng lootbox had transpired. It really feels like grief, like your best friend just died.
Posts on sPvP:
- As a spectator, floating texts needs to go
- First team to reach 250 has an 83% win rate
Not gonna read all of these to see if anyone else mentioned it but wanted to offer a couple of thoughts.
1) You obviously have a pipeline for making skins now. Make some themed for some of the metas and put them as tradable drops at a low rate (pls not as low rate as the chak aura thingy as my guild runs that every night and I've yet to see anyone get it). That will incentive new content as rare drops for neat stuff is a big part of why people keep running HOT metas.
2) I spend money on your shop. I wanna support you. Your pricing was off on this push and you've kicked a hornets nest. Make amends quickly. 200-300 I would think would be better for the random route if you really wanna go that way. The standalone single skin for 2k is way high.
3) Make a 6th anniversary skin for next year for long time players with a pick one like the weapons skins and back skins. It's a good long term incentive.
4) Make at least one skin unlocked by content with new living story episodes
If you really want to keep the lootbox structure for mounts, lower the price per roll to the price of Black Lion keys, and enable skins to be put on the trading post. I think that is a good middle ground.
Mounts just came out, but the first pair of skins came in a bundle only, where you can't even buy any of them individually "which is uncommon and pretty unfavorable to most players" and now the second wave of mount skins come out and it's even more outrageous with the RNG Factor. Personally the Gem Store is adding more RNG than ever before, and I'm disliking it; I know I don't have to buy it and, I don't but in my opinion It's starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth and pushing me more and more to keep focus on other games other than GW2 to rid of possibly getting into that gem store shenanigans.
PS: In the Gem Store I've never bought Chest Keys with my own gems, but now there's unobtainable stuff in the Black Lion Chest, that cannot be traded so that's more of a reason for me to not buy it; mostly because I'm not interested in RNG and I don't support it. I buy a lot of bag slots, couple character slots, some other stuff and I love it because I don't have to roll a die to get what I want.
Edit: Reading other opinions and thinking about it myself, It's very true that I very much didn't mind shelling out some money for this game and it's hard-working staff because it's very unique and likable at that. But putting more and more of this type of RNG in your gem store is making me less and less trusting of the game and the gem store.
I'd think fixing this mess up would be ANet's priority 1 at the moment but as far as I can tell there isn't a peep from ANet about how upset people are on this.
If they are worried about overloading the gem store by allowing people to choose the skins they want then they could do it from the mount skin section of the hero panel. They could make it so we could just click on a skin you want and buy it with gems there. We can already buy bag slot expansions outside of the gem store from the Inventory Panel.
Let's talk about the audience/customer base for mount skins - and let's keep in mind anyone buying a mount skin is already a paying customer, because they bought Path of Fire.
Completionists will be unhappy because $120 for all 30 skins is a very high asking price for a single purchase. Can you even buy that many gems at once through the UI? Maybe that's fine because being a completionist in this game is already a quick route to bankruptcy.
Folks who want a cheap/plain skin to match their armor will be unhappy because the cost of the raffle ticket has to account for the chance of pulling a "chase" skin, and even then they might not get the particular skin they want. They might not even be happy if they end up with a flashy skin because it doesn't match their aesthetic - the particle effects are not for everyone.
Folks who want a "chase" skin with shiny particle effects will probably be unhappy because they're forced to keep rolling dice until they get the one they're after. A select few will only spend $5 and have a great time, everyone else gets to sulk - it has the potential to make the 2000 gem jackal look generous in comparison.
Folks who just want something new and don't care what it is are happy, I guess. They pay $5 and get to use a single new mount. Maybe it's a mount they use a lot, maybe it isn't. Is this a large segment? I imagine the previous three buckets are much larger.
Who "wins" here except for ArenaNet? Are any of the customers truly satisfied except the ones that are already accustomed to huge gem store purchases and can rationalize $120 to themselves, or those with enough gold to buy it outright with ingame currency?
Usually when I spend money on gaming I walk away feeling happy and like I got good value for my dollar. With this price structure I walk away feeling like I just got out of a car dealership - ultimately maybe I bought something but it was an unpleasant experience and I'm not in a hurry to go back.
Aw. Is there anything I can do for you? Being depressed is no fun at all, if you need to talk, please PM me. ^_^
There is a reason the old paths are behind us; the only way we can see what's in front of us is to look forward and remember why the old paths were left behind.
Resident Hug Addict and Fire Extinguisher
I do not like this system. If it wasn't randomized, I'd be more receptive.
This.
It's not about "making gw2 great again"
Its not about "supporting gw2" like they're a mom and pop lemonade stand.
It's not about "wont anyone think about the poor starving Anet employees"
It's not about "what's a fair price"
It's not about "giving people new and exciting ways to play"
It's about money. Maximising profits.
Anet could have easily given away a bunch of skins with the ex pac. It's about seeing how much of the content can be monetized.
Can, should, legal and fair are not synonymous. It's a product. Either you're willing to buy into it or you're not. Even F2P players are buying into it without spending a single penny. Ghost town mmo's don't work and you can't show off if there's no audience. Anet and NCsoft know what makes them money so you can expect a lot more of this type of grind or pay, RNG, loot box, gated content business model whether you like it or not.
I'm really
to se A-Net follow what they started with the BL Keys in a feature FAR more requested/expected than random skins. Those at least competed with TONS of other skins that could be bought directly via the Black Lion market AND all the "free" ones you get from playing. ("free" because Im a beta player who pre - ordered the game and both expansions)
Heck, I -as most of the community- expected a "Glider" model to the mounts, with reasonable prices AND non gambling purchases if you want to pay for gems / grind them.
But this? I certainly didn't expect this. And I wont support a game with this kind of predatory mechanics anymore. I'm kitten burned by this lootbox kitten that AAA company's are pushing out and will continue voting with my wallet against it.
PS and Edit: Heck even using the glider prices it means TONS of more money as you will want probably a skin for each mount! I cant fathom the greed that its needed to make this kind of decisions on top.
I had fun with the random mount skins, I got a couple I really liked! I don't mind spending the money on a game I love for fun cosmetic things.
I would have bought several of these skins were it not for the ridiculous RNG element. On the other hand, you did make it easier for me to pull the trigger on buying ELEX, so thanks I guess?
I have no issue spending my money to support to Anet, I have been with you since Factions. I think the new mount skins are lovely. But I want to spend my money on what I want. If I liked one or two skins, you could force me to drop $100+ just for one item? That is horrid and you should be ashamed. What really ticks me off, however, is the fact that you dump in all these wonderful skins only a little over a month after an expansion pack is released with no way to get any in game. You know when the consumers get upset when a game releases with immediate DLC? Same issue here. This is a huge slap in the face to us consumers. You will not be getting a penny out of me until this is addressed, and with the current rate of locking skins behind RNG loot boxes and expecting us to drop money for a chance to get it is complete ludicrous.
Let me be clear; I would have no problem dropping 400 gems on a skin for a mount that I like. I've grown to accept that this company will prioritize getting money from us. For a free to play game, its to be expected that skins will be added and purchased. But this is an absolute shameless money grab.
I'm wondering, will the new weapons from the design a weapon contest be Black Lion Chest exclusive too?