Official Mount Adoption Feedback Thread [merged]

[Congrinae.1290]

Not sure what bringing business numbers really adds to the discussion when the game has a boatload of ways to use your real money for things. RNG loot boxes being removed or edited to be less RNG will not be the sole reason Anet dies (if it ever does). Thinking about how much money I've spent over my years of gw2 in the gem store for single specific items sometimes gives me a headache. Obviously, this isnt the case for everyone and I can only share my own experience here, but even WITHOUT looking at any RNG based products, I am still constantly finding things I'm burning to purchase, from more inventory slots to outfits to weapon skins to gliders (huge weakness on the gliders here lol).

The way the stables are designed impacts more, I think, partially because the cost is so much more expensive. With dye packs as an example, you can get 1 for under 200 gems. Sure, you may get dupes and common colours, but the price point for a single always feel like its a bit of a throwaway anyways. 400 gems for something youre not even sure your going to get feels uncomfortable. I would rather pay a bit more gems to guarantee I get the exact skin I want. For me, $5 for 1 "loot box" is way too much.

There have been a lot of suggestions as to how to curb this or make the system less... grim, and I really like most of them. Removing the RNG aspect entirely would me endgoal, but I'm not sure if that would feasibly happen. I think offering mount type specific RNG based items would be acceptable, as that way people can pick and choose which mounts they actually want skins for, and it eliminates the scenario where players who do not have griffons and are unlikely to get them receive griffon skins. A good compromise could be having both a mount-specific RNG based box and the individual mount skins for sale, but have the indiv skins be a bit more expensive. That way, if people are dead set one one specific skin they can purchase it upfront, but you offer the option to take your chances for a lower price.

For me its about having the option to choose. Mounts as they are offer no choice or sense of control over where my money is going, and feeds some really harmful habits that many people have (myself included).

[Chadramar.8156]

@Danikat.8537 said:Yes. but probably because I'm using reward in a different way to how the OP intended. I still can't get my head around this idea of playing a game for the purpose of obtaining in-game items. I understand needing some items to be able to play and wanting others because of how they look or what they do, but to me that's a step in the process, not the end goal. The end goal is to have fun playing the game.

This is a very good point and IMO a very healthy mentality, though I may be biased because it's how I like to play, too. I guess the difference between your vote and mine is that I've struggled to find the game itself as fun as you do.

At any rate, just asking how rewarding a game is does not tell the whole story without asking what people even consider to be rewarding. Someone who thinks cosmetics are worthless and only wants ph4t l3wt will not be satisfied with that perfect RP outfit for their character and vice versa. As someone who above all wants to enjoy what I do, and has a extremely low "loot motivation", my ranking of what I find satisfying would be:

1) Immersion. In my character, in the world, in a story.2) Creating something. In this game, that is limited to crafting and trying to find a fitting look for what I want my character to be.3) Discovery and exploration. The "joy of movement" is very much a thing for me, too.4) Meeting little (or larger) goals and achievments.5) Cooperation. Severely restricted by extreme social anxiety and bad experiences with abusive people.

Getting loot doesn't even make the list, unless it's that perfect-looking item for a character's theme. Nor does any kind of "exclusivity" and the related ego-stroking, regardless of whether it's content or looks or loot. The last satisfying/rewarding thing of all is just buying something. There's zero "meaning" and connection in something that I just fork money (or gold) over for. I'd still buy some mount skins if they ditched the predatory lootbox BS, but it's not "rewarding" to have something that is bought instead of self-made or specifically worked towards through related activities.

By far the most rewarding/satisfying things in the game for me, this year, were the Caladbolg mini-episode because I love the sylvari and have long been annoyed with the lack of closure for HoT or news on "mom's" dire condition, and the gryphon collection. Oh, and seeing Aurene swoop in and trying to save me during the PoF story, because I was really worried they'd pull a Braham with her.

[Ayumi Spender.1082]

@Fallesafe.5932 said:The RNG mount skins that everybody is freaking out about are a perfect example of my earlier point (i.e. that the game is not rewarding, and that skins don't matter). I decided to just go ahead and get all the mount-skins yesterday, because, why not? So the first one I got was the "Reforged Warhound." But I was disappointed to see that it runs like it has arthritic hips, and makes a top of the line gaming-machine freeze and hitch when it teleports... Not so impressive. But, SURELY, the other 30 mounts are pretty cool. right? So I settled on the flaming raptor, the frosty rabbit, the light-up skimmer, and the flaming griffon. And, in the end... it was a gigantic basket of, "WHO THE kitten CARES?"

-The first problem, is that getting these mounts has no connection to actually playing the game.-The second problem is that these mounts add nothing but visual-clutter to what you already had to begin with-The third problem is that they literally CAUSE lag.

So, I ran past the bank, and saw everyone clustered in a group... showing off their new lag-machines to the "have nots." And it was literally embarrassing. This, in a nutshell, is the entire game right now... people working for nothing (e.g. skins), in order to show off their nothing to strangers who don't care.

It's really funny that you think everyone that want at least one of the new mount skins want those eyesores that certain individuals like.

[PyrateSilly.4710]

Hmmm if I didn't like the game I would not still be playing after more than 5 years (more than 10 yrs total if you count GW1) so I guess that means it's still rewarding to me. I would not be on the forums reading and responding if I didn't still like to play the game either. I mean there is no reason to talk about the game if I wasn't playing anymore, and that would mean I was off playing something else instead.This isn't the only game I play but, by far, it is the longest in time, so hard it's for me to 'get bored' or 'tired' of it and I do still play almost every day.

[Chadramar.8156]

This thread is hard to keep up with, but in a way that is a good thing. Silence never helped or solved anything.

Also, here's the obligatory thank god for Jim Kittening Sterling, son.

[MMAI.5892]

@pah.4931 said:

It takes a LOT of money to keep a business going. And, like I said, it doesn't matter how much money they make. They need to show growth and a decent ROI, otherwise investors money is better spent elsewhere.They have investors. They have numbers they have to hit. Otherwise, the game shuts down. And people seem OK with the game shutting down, as long as they get to choose their Mount Skin.

While you are not incorrect, I do think it is strange to foist potentially bad business decisions on customers in the form of expecting them to accept and/or cheer business practices they don't like in order to keep the doors open. To put it simply, if Anet, NCSoft or whoever, oversold ROI expectations to investors, or decided to set up additional RNG cash shop items as a means of increasing revenue and profits, that's not my problem. It's theirs. I'm no more obligated as a customer to fret over their profit models than they're required to offer everything with a $1 price to tag to make sure everyone can afford it.

I won't go so far as to say I think it unethical. The price and the RNG concept (except for the drop rates) are right in front nor are the skins required for gameplay, but that doesn't mean that I, or anyone, as consumers have to like the model or buy into it. At the end of the day, if the only way Anet can keep the doors open is to push more and more items through the cash shop at either high prices or RNG, there's a chance I'll lose the game anyway because I'll either simply stop playing or only come back for updates that interest me at best.

[Ashgar.3024]

A better question would be what do the community want for rewards, what would encourage you to play that isn't in the game right now?

Coming from a game relying heavily on gear treadmills i can assure you its not the answer as you can only go through that cycle so many times before feeling the futility of it.

That's actually one of my favorite aspect of GW2, that everything you is is there to last.

[Nikal.4921]

To those defending this sort of practice (which I think predatory), I'd like to think that Anet could get more creative in bringing in money without alienating so many of their customers. All players have a last straw. This clearly added to the stack for many. Seems rather counterproductive to me.

[Deviane.2091]

ok first of all im from mexico...so excuse my poor English and my rather horrific grammarI really was hyped about the mounts and I couldn't wait for the release of the expansion to try them up and use them, especially that awesome looking raptor, to my disappointment they release the expansion PoF mounts same as they did with HoT, 1 dye channel and all.so I was all crazy waiting for the release of the skins as I'm no stranger to buy gems I estimate I had at least expended something around 25-35k gems in game including those u get in the expansions so I was expecting some high prices and felt lucky I had 1400 gems ready for it....then Halloween came and I felt like those Halloween skins pack was a little overpriced and overall not worth it....oh boy only if I knew it would get worse...I guess I'm just trying to say I have supported anet and the game since launch ...since open beta2 tbh and sometimes I felt a lil annoyed by the way the blc chest worked but I took it like a champ and keep playing the game,but this...this bs.... just the 2k skin its enough to feel offended as its more than the price of the Halloween pack...those where 5 skins vs a remodel of the jackal mount...seems not worth it...at all, but the mount licenses seem to even surpass that amount of bs being RNG and not considering the poor ppl that still can't get or don't want to get the griffon or the usefulness of the skimmer (not much tbh IMO)...I'm just ranting,and I know and I hate to ragequit but I can't stand this...one thing is to overprice things and an another to overprice and require to gambling tactics...it was enough since they started launching glider and weapon skins in the BLC chest, we should have said no then and def we have to say no now that it's getting even worse.

so I'm moving on....now I feel betrayed like all those console players felt when they seen their games ruined by greedy companies like EA and Ubisoft, im changing MMO and I know it will be hard to leave all my stuff and characters behind, but I cant take it...I waited so much for those mount skins... to think a simple thing like make the skins cost 700-1000 gems but be individual purchases would have been good for NCsoft Anet and most importantly US the fans, players and supporters of this now shitted on game.so I hope someday I can go back to the game and see all this fixed , and I do hope for the ppl supporting Anet to think a lil bit about if its worth to expend all those gems on the mounts as the ore support they get with tactics like these the more often u will see it in this and other games, but I'm not here to say its bad to buy gems and support the game and company you like, I just think there is better way to do it, and I really hope they change the way to sell virtual items some day.

sorry for the wall of text and my grammar.

[WARIORSCHARGEING.2637]

for me it needs to be far more better than it is . but that only take the player base speaking out on this . to make that happen . but will say when i do feel some what reward honestly i am very shocked it happened . GW2 could be so much more but well i do keep hoping but lot of time it just feels bad in lots of spots .

[feroxeu.7416]

this is a carebear game. Anyone who says they don't feel rewarded are just numb due to the amount of rewards they recieve. Facts: You get rewarded for losing. You get rewarded for winning. You get rewarded for logging in.

[Linnea.5146]

Hey hello, adding my drop in the ocean of replies.

My only issue with this update is that the only way of getting these skins is by taking a chance with gems. I therefore suggest one, or both, of the following:

1. Make the skins tradeable on the trading post, like the BLC weapon skins.
2. Add a "guaranteed" option, as in (for example) 800 gems for the skin you want.

That way, those who like the element of surprise still have that option, while those who prefer to pay a little extra for safety (or wish to gift a certain skin to someone) can do so.

I honestly think it's odd that the mounts get a treatment so different from armor, weapon, and glider skins. All of these were at the very least available either guaranteed in the gem store or through the trading post. And it's not strange that pure "gambling" elicits such a strong reaction - after all, it's well known that the house is the biggest winner, whereas with straight purchases there is a certain sense of fairness and equality (ceteris paribus).

[ForgottenReality.7964]

The choice you have made, ANet, in making these mount skins only available in what is essentially a randomized loot box is very concerning, regardless if we can't get duplicates. It is showing me that you are willing to participate in, and promote, what I can only call a cancer that is currently plaguing so many game developers right now. Look at the amount of backlash games like Shadow of War, Star Wars Battlefront II, and Destiny 2 received for their decision to strip down theirs games just to implement a randomized loot box system. Sure, we have had Black Lion chests in-game since release, but the only difference is we can earn the keys by simply playing the game; hell, even just straight up buy the items that are likely inside the chest if we want. With these mount skins we can only get them through the licenses. I have spent a few hundred dollars to support this game that I love, but this is just a predatory and anti-consumer tactic that I cannot and will not support. I love these skins, some of them are very well designed, but the way you approached it is very, very, poor and many other players who genuinely care about this game agree. If this is the direction you plan to go, predatory RNG loot boxes, then I will not support this game anymore. I viewed Guild Wars 2 as perhaps one of the last good MMOs out there (And this is coming from someone who has played WoW for over ten years), but I guess the cancer is starting to reach here as well. Please ANet, I beg of you to rethink your approach to these skins, and future cosmetic additions to the game. This is not the way to go. Please allow us to simply buy the mount skins we want directly, and not through this "glorified gambling" route you have chosen to pursue. I am not mad, just very, very disappointed.

[Sunyavadin.7962]

@"Nick Lentz.6982" said:Didn't they hire an ex-ubisoft to be their head of game design? Did no one see this coming after that hire? Like for real, that should of been the red flag

cough you mean the..... "Black Flag"?............I'll see myself out, sorry.....

[Korel.3185]

Imagine how much hate these same folks complaining about RNG cosmetics would spew if A-Net announced they were going to a subscription model!

A-Net, you're in business to make money, and if this allows people who want to gamble to do so, while allowing others to play the game for free, and you still make a profit and keep the game going, then ignore them!

[Burial.1958]

@Malafaia.8903 said:

@pah.4931 said:

@Roadkill.2374 said:

@pah.4931 said:Did anyone stop to consider that MAYBE Anet didn't have much of a choice? If sales are declining, there is no reason not to shutter the game completely? Would you rather have lootboxes or no GW2 at all?

Because the harsh reality is that there are a LOT of games on the market. And most of them are BS mobile games that make WAY more money for WAY less effort than a game like GW2. I don't think our average forum poster understands how business works. It's not enough to just "make profit" ... but you have to be growing. You have to doing things that shows y-o-y revenue increases. Plenty of "profitable" companies have been closed because they aren't profitable enough. For those who don't know much (which I am assuming are most of these people complaining), it's called Return On Investment or ROI.

Here's a simplified example. Let's say you have $10 to invest in a game. One game will take all $10, and only return $3 more dollars. But there are four smaller mobile games that only take $1 and will return $4 each, and then two other games that need a $3 investment but will return $5 each. You can invest all $10 into the first company and make a profit -- hooray! -- but it's only a $3 profit and now you have $13. On the other hands, you could have pumped that money and time into those other games and with the same $10 you could have made $25 (a profit of $15, which is more than $3). The ROI is vastly different.

This gets even more complicated when you start talking about trends (i.e., every year, you know that big game that needed $10? well it still needs that much to develop but it has been making less and less returns, while mobile games make MORE each year).

Long story short. Anet is beholding to overlords (ncsoft). And being profitable isn't good enough. They need to show growth. Otherwise, they will get less and less support from their overlords. They won't be able to hire more people or attract new talent when people leave. And the game will die. This happens.

So, today, how about we all take a big, deep breath and thank Anet for a fun game that lets YOU choose how you spend your money on it... because it might be gone tomorrow.

But why should we care how their business work. You are not their friend you are just a paying customer of their service they provide. I am more then happy to pay for the years of service they gave us but if I feel like the direction they are taking is becoming anticustomer I have the right to let me be heard.

And I think you would be suprised how much money they make.

But let's keep this in perspective. To pay just ONE yearly employee salary of $80,000 (not including any other benefit, and I can guarantee you, in Seattle, most salaries are much higher than this), Anet would need to sell all 30 skins (120 bucks) to 667 players. And then there is rent, advertising, insurance, etc etc etc.

It takes a LOT of money to keep a business going. And, like I said, it doesn't matter how much money they make. They need to show growth and a decent ROI, otherwise investors money is better spent elsewhere.

Again. You don't understand how business works. It's not as simple as you think. It's not: "Hey. We made 10 million dollars and now we have 10 million more dollars to spend on GW2 development."

They have investors. They have numbers they have to hit. Otherwise, the game shuts down. And people seem OK with the game shutting down, as long as they get to choose their Mount Skin.

As a business person too i have to bring the fact that you are only talking about numbers and that is a mindset of an 80's businessman.

Im working for the Swatch Group which sells Watches (Tissot, Omega and so on) and yeah Anet didn't understand that their Names ArenaNet & Guild Wars is a label which stands up since GW 1 for Fair Price and Anti Cashcrab. Games made by gamers for gamers! With this move they damaged this label and that is bad. There are values which are not measured by money or quartal earnings that's a fact.

[Sunyavadin.7962]

@BunjiKugashira.9754 said:The fastest way for an MMO to shut down isn't making a little less than anticipated, it's alienating the core player-base. Players are content. In fact players are the most important content an MMO has. Every guild leader or popular commander with a certain follower-base who quits the game costs GW2 more and more players. And in contrast to mobile games or even shooters, player fluctuation in MMOs is incredibly low. MMO players tend to stick to a single game for years. Keeping the existing players happy is thus the most important thing to increase player numbers and player investment. Only a player who invested time and emotions into the game opens his wallet at all. In the long term I'd wager the RNG-boxes hurt ANet more than the short term revenue can make up for.

There is only one situation in which alienating the player base over a quick cash grab is more lucrative than keeping the players happy is if the game is scheduled to be shut down anyways. But knowing ANet and GW2 we would have had leaks about that.

^^^^THIS

And GW2 isn't hurting for money. It's profitable enough that even after keeping the shareholders happy, they can afford to keep not only a main dev team working on expansions, and have people working on regular cosmetic content for the gem store, but also to have three rotating dev teams on a 6-month cycle of free major content releases every couple of months.That living world content would be the FIRST thing to go if they were short on cash. But it's considered an investment which is worth it, because it keeps player engagement, and players are, as you said, the most important content an MMO has, and which is definitely affordable given the money the game is making overall.Obviously, MMO income ebbs and flows with expansion cycles, and long-term every game's profit tails off, but GW2 is certainly still one of the strongest ones out there.

This whole system basically killed all the innovation in the mobile gaming market, which was once something with an overwhelming amount of potential and a lot of really good stuff being developed for, but is now just a wasteland of lazy cash-grabs (And if you look into it, not the best RoI, if Activision's financials following the King acquisition are anything to go by)

[Dinks.2478]

And those of us who actually like to play the game as just sitting here wondering when we'll get good in game rewards.

[skarpak.8594]

@Korel.3185 said:Imagine how much hate these same folks complaining about RNG cosmetics would spew if A-Net announced they were going to a subscription model!

A-Net, you're in business to make money, and if this allows people who want to gamble to do so, while allowing others to play the game for free, and you still make a profit and keep the game going, then ignore them!

do you realize that this game is for kids too?do you realize that those gambeling practices are banned in the land with probably the biggest gaming industry ever,because it is a big fucking ripoff AND gambeling?

there are gambeling laws in every country and this ingame stuff is literally bending them because "its virtual" and whatnot.

also there are people who want to buy the stuff from anet WITHOUT gambeling. what about those customers?also 25$ for a fucking skin? you nearly get the new xpac for that price.

[AlexPort.9204]

I like it! very good skins. price is okay and I think its the best rng-box in all mmos and a fair compromise of you getting a little bit more money and I get always, to 100%, a new skin and no doublets. and after 30 skins its finished.

finally have something I can work for since PoF release.

[Dinks.2478]

PoF was a big turn-around for me. It added a nice chunk of maps to the game, they were fun to explore and play in. There were a few new armor and weapon skins, but still less than a handful..... Why is your development time so whale-focused?

[skarpak.8594]

@AlexPort.9204 said:I like it! very good skins. price is okay and I think its the best rng-box in all mmos and a fair compromise of you getting a little bit more money and I get always, to 100%, a new skin and no doublets. and after 30 skins its finished.

finally have something I can work for since PoF release.

paid commentator. lul

[Rashagar.8349]

@Deihnyx.6318 said:

@Inferno.3217 said:Anet dont mind all these people that are complaining and want you to remove RNG. Imo this form of mount skins is acceptable the only change i would make is to let the people choose mount type(raptor griffon etc) and leave RNG part as it is because it makes you some money and is fun for some players. Luck is part of every game and even part of life so complaining about it is pretty pathetic.

Yeah... I feel like the only reason why this time it's creating all that drama is because people actually REALLY REALLY want theses skins because there is no other skin available in game.. whereas seasonal rng items... only a few people care about them (i'm one of them sadly).This backslash is a bit too extreme imho. This "concept" was already in game, for years, and it's only now that people are calling "shame" on anet, not because it's new but because this time more people want the premium skins.

if you don't want to pay that amount, you aren't the target of these premiums. Now yes you can try to discuss about getting alternative ways like paying more to select a specific mount. You can also discuss the fact that this is supposed to be a game, and there none of these mounts are actually earn able in game (this is the actual issue imho, rng isn't nearly as bad as other lootboxes).

But please, stop with the extreme language. Anet doesn't have to be ashamed for this. There is no subscription fee, these are purely cosmetic items, Anet still doesn't sell pay to win items like they always say they wouldn't.

(At Anet: Next time you do that, add a merchant and sell mounts with gold, people won't see "gems" on the price and half of them won't be complaining (aka ecto gambling)

This post is like a breath of fresh air.

[amavanola.9560]

My Opinion to the Mount Adoption Discussion.Spend 800-1000 Gems for a Skin that i really like is absolutly fine for me. But to gamble in RNG Lootbox System is a no go for me. If i don't have the Choice i prefer to buy none of them.And yes i'm buy sometimes gems with realworld money because i will support the work of Anet. But as Customer and Fan of Guildwars2 i will can choose how i can Support the Company and not to be forced to play a RNG Lottery if i like a Skin

[Liberia.7830]

This is just my two cents on the whole situation,

I think what A-net should have done was that, to allow us to purchase the mounts skin without RNG, maybe raising the price by 200 gems to allow us to have the choice of the mount we want. People will find it reasonable. and this issue would not have happened, I myself was a victim. I purchased 400 gems x27... just to get the mount I want. I am only able to purchase all these nonsense because my love for the game is still going on strong, but again. 10800 gems just to get 1 SKIN is pretty unreasonable.(yes I know I'm stupid) The fact that I am a gambler is still there and I totally have regretted this situation. I've only been able to do this because I have a high paid and stable job but thinking about others has made me upset. A-net has let me down. A-net has let us down. I hope A-net would not destroy the game that they painstakingly built for years and ages. Signing off.