What's the future of raids in GW2? - Page 5 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What's the future of raids in GW2?

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  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty oblivious that you don't run dungeons.

    Good come back, doesn't explain how content which is massively outcreeped is supposed to be hard.

    LOL, who do you think LFG's dungeons anymore? LOL, Are you really this obtuse to think Meta Junkies with Elite Specs are LFGing 5 year old dead content? HA HA HA HA HA, Outside F2P players looking to "see what they are about" or get some tokens for the cool looking weapons, no one even bothers, well outside that one person still trying to get Dungeon Master.

    Think about it, When was the last time you even saw dungeon weapons or armor even being used. My Warrior is in SE gear, but, I have not changed their gear in 3 years.

    Do you actually play at all, outside a raid and T4 fractal?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty oblivious that you don't run dungeons.

    Good come back, doesn't explain how content which is massively outcreeped is supposed to be hard.

    LOL, who do you think LFG's dungeons anymore? LOL, Are you really this obtuse to think Meta Junkies with Elite Specs are LFGing 5 year old dead content? HA HA HA HA HA, Outside F2P players looking to "see what they are about" or get some tokens for the cool looking weapons, no one even bothers, well outside that one person still trying to get Dungeon Master.

    Think about it, When was the last time you even saw dungeon weapons or armor even being used. My Warrior is in SE gear, but, I have not changed their gear in 3 years.

    Do you actually play at all, outside a raid and T4 fractal?

    Are you really comparing inexperienced dungeon runers now with speedrun groups in vanialla?

    Fact 1: powercreep has made dungeons SIGNIFICANTLY easier no matter the skill level of the player

    Fact 2: inexperienced players now and during vanilla will have had a hard time and dungeons would not have been lucrative. The difference is now they will have an easier time

    Fact 3: speedrunning groups or experinced players destroy dungeons now even more than they ever did during vanilla.

    The overall amount or quality of players is insignificant for content which is this easy. I never said dungeons are superior for inexperienced players. I said dungeon rewards are on the same level as pre nerf, which they are on top of which the content is majorly outcreep by a factor of 3-4.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty oblivious that you don't run dungeons.

    Good come back, doesn't explain how content which is massively outcreeped is supposed to be hard.

    LOL, who do you think LFG's dungeons anymore? LOL, Are you really this obtuse to think Meta Junkies with Elite Specs are LFGing 5 year old dead content? HA HA HA HA HA, Outside F2P players looking to "see what they are about" or get some tokens for the cool looking weapons, no one even bothers, well outside that one person still trying to get Dungeon Master.

    Think about it, When was the last time you even saw dungeon weapons or armor even being used. My Warrior is in SE gear, but, I have not changed their gear in 3 years.

    Do you actually play at all, outside a raid and T4 fractal?

    Are you really comparing inexperienced dungeon runers now with speedrun groups in vanialla?

    Fact 1: powercreep has made dungeons SIGNIFICANTLY easier no matter the skill level of the player

    Fact 2: inexperienced players now and during vanilla will have had a hard time and dungeons would not have been lucrative. The difference is now they will have an easier time

    Fact 3: speedrunning groups or experinced players destroy dungeons now even more than they ever did during vanilla.

    The overall amount or quality of players is insignificant for content which is this easy. I never said dungeons are superior for inexperienced players. I said dungeon rewards are on the same level as pre nerf, which they are on top of which the content is majorly outcreep by a factor of 3-4.

    well thank you for showing me you don't do Dungeons, and are by and large clueless on how rewarding they are. I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.

    Truth is, you really have no idea how rewarding the are, because you don't do the content.

    Also, the only reason why I have entertained you side tracking this discussion his far, is because.. I am under the belief that raids will follow the same fate as Dungeons, and will be killed by a simple reward nerf.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • masskillerxploit.2165masskillerxploit.2165 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @Xar.1387 said:
    Raids are the best thing that has ever happened in PvE of GW2. Finally we got challenging endgame PvE content.
    But I'm wondering what's the future of this mode. I mean. Most players need big rewards for doing hard things. Right now we got e.g legendary armor which seems to be a good prize. But what's next?

    In the most mmorpg's its easy, cause they regularly add eq with better and better stats. And players feel rewarded cause they gain unique items. But GW2 works differently - this game isnt able to do it this way. So what awaits us?

    Guildwars 2:
    1) Challenging
    2) Content

    Pick one.

    srsly raids and fractals can be beaten by bots. Nothing compares to what hardmode was in gw1.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty oblivious that you don't run dungeons.

    Good come back, doesn't explain how content which is massively outcreeped is supposed to be hard.

    LOL, who do you think LFG's dungeons anymore? LOL, Are you really this obtuse to think Meta Junkies with Elite Specs are LFGing 5 year old dead content? HA HA HA HA HA, Outside F2P players looking to "see what they are about" or get some tokens for the cool looking weapons, no one even bothers, well outside that one person still trying to get Dungeon Master.

    Think about it, When was the last time you even saw dungeon weapons or armor even being used. My Warrior is in SE gear, but, I have not changed their gear in 3 years.

    Do you actually play at all, outside a raid and T4 fractal?

    Are you really comparing inexperienced dungeon runers now with speedrun groups in vanialla?

    Fact 1: powercreep has made dungeons SIGNIFICANTLY easier no matter the skill level of the player

    Fact 2: inexperienced players now and during vanilla will have had a hard time and dungeons would not have been lucrative. The difference is now they will have an easier time

    Fact 3: speedrunning groups or experinced players destroy dungeons now even more than they ever did during vanilla.

    The overall amount or quality of players is insignificant for content which is this easy. I never said dungeons are superior for inexperienced players. I said dungeon rewards are on the same level as pre nerf, which they are on top of which the content is majorly outcreep by a factor of 3-4.

    well thank you for showing me you don't do Dungeons, and are by and large clueless on how rewarding they are. I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.

    Truth is, you really have no idea how rewarding the are, because you don't do the content.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Hm, I cant agree on either statement.
    Dungeon rewards are okay, if you have a fixed group to run dungeons with reasonably fast once a day.
    The rewards drop below crappy if you have to rely on lfg, or if you run dungeons more than once a day.

    I have to agree with you 100% here, if you have a fixed group of speed runners, they can still be decent, but if you are an average payer trying to PuG them.. they are pitiful. The fact that some of these raid enthusiasts don' seem to grasp that, shows how out of touch they are with the rest of the games population.

    Because running 5 year old content on current builds which have had a power creep from 8k-10k per dps in vanilla to over 20-30k dps post HoT (and even 30k+) is hard.

    Are you even playing this game or just forum warrioring?

    I'd ask you the same, but, it's pretty oblivious that you don't run dungeons.

    Good come back, doesn't explain how content which is massively outcreeped is supposed to be hard.

    LOL, who do you think LFG's dungeons anymore? LOL, Are you really this obtuse to think Meta Junkies with Elite Specs are LFGing 5 year old dead content? HA HA HA HA HA, Outside F2P players looking to "see what they are about" or get some tokens for the cool looking weapons, no one even bothers, well outside that one person still trying to get Dungeon Master.

    Think about it, When was the last time you even saw dungeon weapons or armor even being used. My Warrior is in SE gear, but, I have not changed their gear in 3 years.

    Do you actually play at all, outside a raid and T4 fractal?

    Are you really comparing inexperienced dungeon runers now with speedrun groups in vanialla?

    Fact 1: powercreep has made dungeons SIGNIFICANTLY easier no matter the skill level of the player

    Fact 2: inexperienced players now and during vanilla will have had a hard time and dungeons would not have been lucrative. The difference is now they will have an easier time

    Fact 3: speedrunning groups or experinced players destroy dungeons now even more than they ever did during vanilla.

    The overall amount or quality of players is insignificant for content which is this easy. I never said dungeons are superior for inexperienced players. I said dungeon rewards are on the same level as pre nerf, which they are on top of which the content is majorly outcreep by a factor of 3-4.

    well thank you for showing me you don't do Dungeons, and are by and large clueless on how rewarding they are. I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.

    Truth is, you really have no idea how rewarding the are, because you don't do the content.

    Sidestepping my arguments is not a way to disprove my claim.

    You are basically complaining that the dungeon community as a whole has shrunk and the majority of players found via LFG are inexperienced thus making dungeon runs less profitable. I don't care about this claim. It might be true.

    That does not change anything about how rewarding the content is, especially when achieving decent or stellar results now is easier than ever before.

    I finish 8 dungeon paths in sub 1 hour with friends without a special comp or using massive skips. Something unthinkable during vanilla except with absolute top tier speedrun groups.

    Trash and bosses die instantly under current dps pressure no matter which dps you bring along. Again something unthinkable durig vanilla for pugs or decent groups.

    Edit: so to summerize. Dungeons might be less rewarding for inexperienced players even though they are easier (thanks to powercreep) because there is a lack of community to carry them along. For any experinced player the rewards are equal or better while being a lot easier. Simply put: as a farm they are similiar or better.

  • To be honest, I don't know why do you guys even bother responding to some certain people in the topic that only seem to come to bash raids at every single opportunity that they can get or wanting to leave a negative impression to developers that raids aren't worth developing. And this seems to be starting to get off topic, becoming a dungeon thread.

    Anyway, I am crossing my fingers for a new raid wing announcement before the end of the year. In my opinion, raids are some of the best contents ANET has ever came out with and has decent replay value. Sadly though, they are starting to get a bit boring after so long but then again, everything get boring for me eventually, especially after numerous repetitions. I do wish that raids can come out faster but ANET has only a small team. Just will need to be patient and hope that it will be worth all the wait.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I finish 8 dungeon paths in sub 1 hour with friends without a special comp or using massive skips.

    Gotta love it when people are that predictable.

    Let me hold your hand here, we already said that in a fixed Group the rewards were still not that bad, but if you pug, they suck. Saying you can get decent rewards running with a fixed group of your Meta Junkie buddies does not do anything to change our claims, it just shows you have not been following the discussion or paying any attention what anyone has said. Which is kinda sad, give you quoted us both several times.

    Anyway as I said, the only reason why I have humored you this far, is because I think the same will happen to Raids. Given they were not Advertised in PoF, I get the vibe they are not Anets golden child anymore.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I finish 8 dungeon paths in sub 1 hour with friends without a special comp or using massive skips.

    Gotta love it when people are that predictable.

    Let me hold your hand here, we already said that in a fixed Group the rewards were still not that bad, but if you pug, they suck. Saying you can get decent rewards running with a fixed group of your Meta Junkie buddies does not do anything to change our claims, it just shows you have not been following the discussion or paying any attention what anyone has said. Which is kinda sad, give you quoted us both several times.

    Anyway as I said, the only reason why I have humored you this far, is because I think the same will happen to Raids. Given they were not Advertised in PoF, I get the vibe they are not Anets golden child anymore.

    Want me to quote you from earlier in this thread where you were harping on about how rewards are terrible?

    I'm sorry I missed the part where you agreed with me that they are in fact decent. It must have gone under in your way to disscuss with all them lols and stuff while not providing any type arguments besides: loot bad.

    EDIT: but you are correct, this thread was sidetracked enough and I'm quite honestly tired of getting jerked around by some so shady and twisty as far as arguments go. I've said my piece earlier and backed it up with actual numbers as far as class performance and resulting difficulty.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wildfang.3271 said:
    Anyway, I am crossing my fingers for a new raid wing announcement before the end of the year. In my opinion, raids are some of the best contents ANET has ever came out with and has decent replay value. Sadly though, they are starting to get a bit boring after so long but then again, everything get boring for me eventually, especially after numerous repetitions. I do wish that raids can come out faster but ANET has only a small team. Just will need to be patient and hope that it will be worth all the wait.

    Honestly even if we get the next Raid in 2018 I'd still be happy, provided it's an awesome one. The balance is already a bit weird so I don't think having a Raid balanced on bad balanced builds is a good idea. Remember that real players will test the Raids, and they need to use proper builds to get better results. The latest patch did balance things, and at the same time changed the meta, both a good thing.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @masskillerxploit.2165 said:
    srsly raids and fractals can be beaten by bots. Nothing compares to what hardmode was in gw1.

    Sorry, but the fact is... in reality quite the reverse is true. Though thats not really something to discuss here.

    I stand by my statement, difficulty wise raids are challenging enough and not too challenging. Just a weekly reset of challenge mote rewards would be greatly appreciated, so its worth re-doing them. They are imo quite nicely done.
    But I guess the whole "babymode" discussion quelled that, since if we get repeatable challenge motes, rpg'ers are gonna increase their whining for babymode. Im quite sure Anet doesnt want to do that.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I finish 8 dungeon paths in sub 1 hour with friends without a special comp or using massive skips.

    Gotta love it when people are that predictable.

    Let me hold your hand here, we already said that in a fixed Group the rewards were still not that bad, but if you pug, they suck. Saying you can get decent rewards running with a fixed group of your Meta Junkie buddies does not do anything to change our claims, it just shows you have not been following the discussion or paying any attention what anyone has said. Which is kinda sad, give you quoted us both several times.

    Anyway as I said, the only reason why I have humored you this far, is because I think the same will happen to Raids. Given they were not Advertised in PoF, I get the vibe they are not Anets golden child anymore.

    Want me to quote you from earlier in this thread where you were harping on about how rewards are terrible?

    Sure, go ahead, especially the part where the coin reward still only 80 %of what it used to be, which is true. Also.. 'Not bad" is relative, they still blow chunks in comparison to what that same group of Meta junkies can get from four T4, fractals, so those "friends" you have that can do 8 path in under an hour, bet haven't touched a Dungeon in 3 years.. because.. Oh right.. the rewards suck.

    By why let reality get in the way your delusions, you're gonna need that when Raids start to be less lucrative, an maybe you can be one of the few hold-outs, but.. I'll bet, like dungeons, you and yours would be the first to abandon them for whatever new shiny Anet danged for you.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • zoomborg.9462zoomborg.9462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I finish 8 dungeon paths in sub 1 hour with friends without a special comp or using massive skips.

    Gotta love it when people are that predictable.

    Let me hold your hand here, we already said that in a fixed Group the rewards were still not that bad, but if you pug, they suck. Saying you can get decent rewards running with a fixed group of your Meta Junkie buddies does not do anything to change our claims, it just shows you have not been following the discussion or paying any attention what anyone has said. Which is kinda sad, give you quoted us both several times.

    Anyway as I said, the only reason why I have humored you this far, is because I think the same will happen to Raids. Given they were not Advertised in PoF, I get the vibe they are not Anets golden child anymore.

    Want me to quote you from earlier in this thread where you were harping on about how rewards are terrible?

    Sure, go ahead, especially the part where the coin reward still only 80 %of what it used to be, which is true. Also.. 'Not bad" is relative, they still blow chunks in comparison to what that same group of Meta junkies can get from four T4, fractals, so those "friends" you have that can do 8 path in under an hour, bet haven't touched a Dungeon in 3 years.. because.. Oh right.. the rewards suck.

    By why let reality get in the way your delusions, you're gonna need that when Raids start to be less lucrative, an maybe you can be one of the few hold-outs, but.. I'll bet, like dungeons, you and yours would be the first to abandon them for whatever new shiny Anet danged for you.

    Actually most people in my guild, even though they can speedrun dungeons, no1 does them at all. U know why? Because they're boring as hell. The powercreep made them so ez u need to handicap yourself by semi-afking or lowmaning to make them somewhat interesting. And yes i usually do 8 paths 2-3 times a week for the achievement with lfg and its pretty nice gold.

    Btw I dont get why u hate raids so much, why u call every decent player "elitist" or why u want raids to stop getting development....U seem really bitter about something, its actually really rare to see someone hating content he doesnt play, isnt interested in and doesnt affect his own gameplay at all. Here's a cookie to cheer u up!

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Wildfang.3271 said:
    Anyway, I am crossing my fingers for a new raid wing announcement before the end of the year. In my opinion, raids are some of the best contents ANET has ever came out with and has decent replay value. Sadly though, they are starting to get a bit boring after so long but then again, everything get boring for me eventually, especially after numerous repetitions. I do wish that raids can come out faster but ANET has only a small team. Just will need to be patient and hope that it will be worth all the wait.

    Honestly even if we get the next Raid in 2018 I'd still be happy, provided it's an awesome one. The balance is already a bit weird so I don't think having a Raid balanced on bad balanced builds is a good idea. Remember that real players will test the Raids, and they need to use proper builds to get better results. The latest patch did balance things, and at the same time changed the meta, both a good thing.

    Personally I have my own issues about what people want with balance but I will refrain. Don't want to go into a fullblown, out of topic rant here cough.
    My wish for raids is that they will still remain challenging and provide interesting mechanics to handle while preventing big DPS from skipping too many of those mechanics. CM 100 did try to incorporate that though with limited success. I just hope that they can fine tune the idea some more.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I know.. I know.. this is where you tell me some nonsense where you pug dungeons daily, and get all 8 paths done in 10 Minuit.. or some such ridiculous claim to try and add credit to your claims.
    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    I finish 8 dungeon paths in sub 1 hour with friends without a special comp or using massive skips.

    Gotta love it when people are that predictable.

    Let me hold your hand here, we already said that in a fixed Group the rewards were still not that bad, but if you pug, they suck. Saying you can get decent rewards running with a fixed group of your Meta Junkie buddies does not do anything to change our claims, it just shows you have not been following the discussion or paying any attention what anyone has said. Which is kinda sad, give you quoted us both several times.

    Anyway as I said, the only reason why I have humored you this far, is because I think the same will happen to Raids. Given they were not Advertised in PoF, I get the vibe they are not Anets golden child anymore.

    Want me to quote you from earlier in this thread where you were harping on about how rewards are terrible?

    Sure, go ahead, especially the part where the coin reward still only 80 %of what it used to be, which is true. Also.. 'Not bad" is relative, they still blow chunks in comparison to what that same group of Meta junkies can get from four T4, fractals, so those "friends" you have that can do 8 path in under an hour, bet haven't touched a Dungeon in 3 years.. because.. Oh right.. the rewards suck.

    By why let reality get in the way your delusions, you're gonna need that when Raids start to be less lucrative, an maybe you can be one of the few hold-outs, but.. I'll bet, like dungeons, you and yours would be the first to abandon them for whatever new shiny Anet danged for you.

    If only one could convert tokens to gold, oh wait, one can. Strait from gw2efficiency:

    For the sub 60 dungeons where you can't get direct ecto out, it's 30 copper per token. (that's instant conversion with instant sell)
    For the dungeons above 60 which allow for direct ecto conversion, it's 65 copper per token. (that's instant conversion to ecto with instant sell)
    That's with current prices of ectos being bottomed out. That's without any fancy crafting or such.

    Now consider that you get an extra 160 tokens from dungeon paths alone AND 150 dungeon tokens free to chose from any dungeon after 8 paths and you end up with(let's assume an even split between sub and above 60 dungeons even though you can run 6 above 60 dungeons easy):
    80 x .3 = 24s
    80 x .65 = 52s
    150 x .65= 97.5s
    additionally to the 5g you get for 8 paths. That's 6.73 gold per 8 paths at absolute bottomed out ecto prices and no fancy crafting whatsoever.

    Dungeon rewards were reduced by between 70s and 2g depending on which path length you did. Suffice to say, the fast and easy paths were reduced from 1g5s to 35s.

    Let's be generous and assume a total loss of 1g per path which totals 8g for 8 paths of less liquid gold (it's actually less for fast paths but hey, who's counting).

    You are now essentially short 1.27g of dungeon gold under following assumptions:

    • ecto prices stay bottomed out (unlikely but might be the case. It's more realistic to assume that they will climb back to mid 30s)
    • current builds outperform old builds by a factor of 3-4 which makes the total time required to finish them substantially less
    • you don't actually require dungeon tokens in any way, otherwise the new system is far more favorable
    • you don't run multiple above 60 paths
    • you instant sell your ecto and token conversion, which is unrealistic since buy orders fill up instantly (especially for ecto)
    • we assume every dungeon path lost 1g of liquid gold reward (which they did not, the fast ones lost less)

    My delusions seem quite sufficiently backed up by numbers. What about yours? That's the problem with parroting forum (or subjective) nonsense without actually doing the math.

    EDIT: and yes, dungeon rewards have fallen off in value compared to other game content (of which there is multiple good farms now and dungeons are not the best farm around), go read what I wrote in my first posts which is exactly this. They did not reduce in value compared to their old rewards.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My delusions seem quite sufficiently backed up by numbers. What about yours?

    Reality of the game.

    8 Separate unique paths need to be completed at less then half what they once rewarded before getting a bonus chest. Now maybe to some speedfreaks and meta junkies, don't see the problem, but that just shows how far removed they are from the general population of the game.

    To anyone using the LFM, getting a group to run all 8 paths is neigh impossible, and in any reasonable amount of time, is never going to happen.I get that you don't slum it with the average players, you stick to your clique, which is where you belong, but spouting numbers at me while ignoring the reality of how the general population of this game functions.. yes.. you come across as delusional.. while that may be backed by numbers if things existed in an ideal universe. maybe.. backed by reality.. not at all.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My delusions seem quite sufficiently backed up by numbers. What about yours?

    Reality of the game.

    8 Separate unique paths need to be completed at less then half what they once rewarded before getting a bonus chest. Now maybe to some speedfreaks and meta junkies, don't see the problem, but that just shows how far removed they are from the general population of the game.

    I accounted for that, 8 seperate paths had to be completed pre nerf too since the 60 tokens (which are now 80) were a 1nce per day award and you could not run the same path over and over due to path limitations and 15 minute diminishing return timer. A non issue since there are more then 8 simple and fast paths.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    To anyone using the LFM, getting a group to run all 8 paths is neigh impossible, and in any reasonable amount of time, is never going to happen.I get that you don't slum it with the average players, you stick to your clique, which is where you belong, but spouting numbers at me while ignoring the reality of how the general population of this game functions.. yes.. you come across as delusional.. while that may be backed by numbers if things existed in an ideal universe. maybe.. backed by reality.. not at all.

    Wow, even when someone does the math for you and has said things you suddenly pick up pages earlier in a thread you still want to be right.

    Yeah, I'm the delusional one.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    My delusions seem quite sufficiently backed up by numbers. What about yours?

    Reality of the game.

    8 Separate unique paths need to be completed at less then half what they once rewarded before getting a bonus chest. Now maybe to some speedfreaks and meta junkies, don't see the problem, but that just shows how far removed they are from the general population of the game.

    I accounted for that, 8 seperate paths had to be completed pre nerf too since the 60 tokens (which are now 80) were a 1nce per day award and you could not run the same path over and over due to path limitations and 15 minute diminishing return timer. A non issue since there are more then 8 simple and fast paths.

    LOL, do you really think some random Pugger is really going to get all 8 paths in, in a day? That's so cute.

    Anyway, thanks for the insight into what raiders think, it's been sorta helpful.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Wildfang.3271 said:
    Personally I have my own issues about what people want with balance but I will refrain. Don't want to go into a fullblown, out of topic rant here cough.
    My wish for raids is that they will still remain challenging and provide interesting mechanics to handle while preventing big DPS from skipping too many of those mechanics. CM 100 did try to incorporate that though with limited success. I just hope that they can fine tune the idea some more.

    Well they did say that W4 was easier and want the next Raid to be more like W1 so that's a good thing. I hope when they say "W1 difficulty" it excludes Gorseval no updraft though, the rest of them are fine.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    LOL, do you really think some random Pugger is really going to get all 8 paths in, in a day? That's so cute.

    Anyway, thanks for the insight into what raiders think, it's been sorta helpful.

    Well, every other person in this thread is right, you are not!

    Since you brought up fractal and raid rewards:
    Go into the LFG and write T4 dailies or "xx - xx - xx" (numbers for daily fractals) and nothing else. Good luck with that because the result is the same compared to dungeons: You can either have luck and competent players will join your group or you get the 45 minutes - 1 hour (or more) Average Joe pug and your lovely worth fractal rewards are wrecked into oblivion. And there is nothing you can do as experienced player because fractals on T4 hit a little bit harder than dungeons. If you can solo them you can also solo dungeons and we can immediately stop to discuss here!
    Dungeons on the other hand: Take 4 (inexperienced) level 80 players with you and you can easily run through almost all dungeons without a problem.
    In addition the correct example with raids: Write "VG" in the LFG and I ask you 3 days later if your group has killed it. Hmm, maybe a week would be more appropriate. You would make more money running TA UP with lvl 55 peeps once a day because the raid group would have collected 150 shards due to wipes at best.

    So, if you really want to make comparison do it right. And as a hint for you: You have to set up the right LFGs! If you always allow 4 new players getting taught by yourself and then continue to cry about dungeon rewards you are doing something horribly wrong. When I ask for lvl 80 players to run my weekly dungeons I get them plus they are barely all inexperienced. Even Arah runs are a breeze nowadays.

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    LOL, do you really think some random Pugger is really going to get all 8 paths in, in a day? That's so cute.

    Yes! AC Full run a.k.a. Story, P1, 2 & 3, TA Story, Up & FwD, CoF P1. Those are your 8 paths and they are easily done every day. You get enough players for those via LFG and if not you can also pick SE 1 & 3 which are also taken regularly by pugs. (I would say always choose SE 1 and leave out another one since it is one of the shortest dungeons).
    _
    _
    Sorry, to say but you have a huge lack of information and it seems your knowledge about the lfg isn't clearly better. Sometimes it makes sense to admit mistakes or lack of knowledge and apologize.

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Yes! AC Full run a.k.a. Story, P1, 2 & 3, TA Story, Up & FwD, CoF P1. Those are your 8 paths and they are easily done every day. You get enough players for those via LFG and if not you can also pick SE 1 & 3 which are also taken regularly by pugs. (I would say always choose SE 1 and leave out another one since it is one of the shortest dungeons).

    Honestly I'd choose AC P1/3, CM P1/3, SE P1/3, CoF P1/2 for the fastest 8. Story modes tend to take longer than explorable modes in some dungeons plus they don't give tokens.

    Btw, I wonder what's the gold income comparison between Random puggers in dungeons vs random puggers in Raids. I think the first will at least get some, while the second will get a glorious 0 gold + Magnetite Shards for failing.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Yes! AC Full run a.k.a. Story, P1, 2 & 3, TA Story, Up & FwD, CoF P1. Those are your 8 paths and they are easily done every day. You get enough players for those via LFG and if not you can also pick SE 1 & 3 which are also taken regularly by pugs. (I would say always choose SE 1 and leave out another one since it is one of the shortest dungeons).

    Honestly I'd choose AC P1/3, CM P1/3, SE P1/3, CoF P1/2 for the fastest 8. Story modes tend to take longer than explorable modes in some dungeons plus they don't give tokens.

    Also a good choice but AC Story is 5 minutes and therefore much shorter than CoF P2 or SE P3. I put in TA Story because it is easily done with lvl 50 players plus comparatively short and exploration paths often harder if ppl are lvl 80 but inexperienced.

    Btw, I wonder what's the gold income comparison between Random puggers in dungeons vs random puggers in Raids. I think the first will at least get some, while the second will get a glorious 0 gold + Magnetite Shards for failing.

    Exactly!

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    LOL, do you really think some random Pugger is really going to get all 8 paths in, in a day? That's so cute.

    Yes! AC Full run a.k.a. Story, P1, 2 & 3, TA Story, Up & FwD, CoF P1. Those are your 8 paths and they are easily done every day. You get enough players for those via LFG and if not you can also pick SE 1 & 3 which are also taken regularly by pugs. (I would say always choose SE 1 and leave out another one since it is one of the shortest dungeons).
    _

    Precisely. The dungeon rewards are relatively okay still... but only if you are farming them according to an efficient pattern. If you're casually doing them however, it's no longer as good.

    An average player doing dungeons would not do them according to the checklist. At some time it was quite normal for those players to just keep running 5-6 preferred paths (often no more than one-two per day, sometimes even less). Those kinds of players had their rewards from dungeons heavily nerfed. It's only the efficient farmers that can come close to the former reward level. And (big surprise), most of the players do not belong to that category.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    The only gripe I have with it, is that Id like to have the challenge motes be a weekly thing in which you can get an extra LI and maybe some food boxes or other loot. Doesnt even have to be premium loot, just... a tiny bit more than normal boss drops. Maybe a new currency that you can exchange for pretty things?

    Honestly, although Raid motes need to give something when you repeat them, this is a policy of the entire game. For example, you can't get any extra rewards if you destroy the portals of Shadow Behemoth within the time limit, or if you break the bar of Shatterer and not let him fly, Living World story achievements and so on.
    This entire policy of extra challenges only giving achievements only once, needs to change and make those extra achievements give a little extra every time, so players actually try to complete them. Of course such a huge policy change isn't so easy

    Rewards for open world challenges is a really bad idea. It will breed truly toxic environments as your rewards are completely outside your control unlike dungeons and raids where you can choose who is in your group.

    Challenge mote rewards should stay confined to organized group content.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    An average player doing dungeons would not do them according to the checklist. At some time it was quite normal for those players to just keep running 5-6 preferred paths (often no more than one-two per day, sometimes even less). Those kinds of players had their rewards from dungeons heavily nerfed. It's only the efficient farmers that can come close to the former reward level. And (big surprise), most of the players do not belong to that category.

    How much would that average player get from running Raids?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Rewards for open world challenges is a really bad idea. It will breed truly toxic environments as your rewards are completely outside your control unlike dungeons and raids where you can choose who is in your group.

    I disagree, otherwise why did they add those 5 AP rewards for those achievements? And extra unique rewards as well.
    All I'm saying is that if they added something little extra for finishing the extra achievement for those fights, then newer players would get a chance to finish those, and make the fights themselves more exciting. All those extra achievements promote the encounters and require the player to do something better.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Rewards for open world challenges is a really bad idea. It will breed truly toxic environments as your rewards are completely outside your control unlike dungeons and raids where you can choose who is in your group.

    I disagree, otherwise why did they add those 5 AP rewards for those achievements? And extra unique rewards as well.
    All I'm saying is that if they added something little extra for finishing the extra achievement for those fights, then newer players would get a chance to finish those, and make the fights themselves more exciting. All those extra achievements promote the encounters and require the player to do something better.

    It's just that, one time extras. They're bound to happen somehow, but are not expected as the norm.

    If you get challenge mote rewards ala CM in open world, people will come with the expectation of obtaining them, and will resent and berate others if they don't get them because it is truly a matter of luck whether you get a group of appropriately geared and competent people to do a challenge mote in open world.

    I think you underestimate the sheer level of incompetence that is present in the population that participates in open world. It's why training raids are riddled with players doing as little as 6k DPS or less in the training runs I carry. On my weaver or mirage while I'm doing raid training, I am carrying about 5 people, doing their combined DPS.

    These are the very people who bring a 1.7k toughness rabid soulbeast to Xera and horribly fail the DPS checks on the shards.

    I don't want open world challenge motes with these people in mind. My rewards on open world shouldn't rely on luck of the draw on whether the pugs I get are these sort of people or those used to triple trouble.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    If you get challenge mote rewards ala CM in open world, people will come with the expectation of obtaining them, and will resent and berate others if they don't get them because it is truly a matter of luck whether you get a group of appropriately geared and competent people to do a challenge mote in open world.

    Have you ever done Shatterer after the revamp?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Sorry, to say but you have a huge lack of information and it seems your knowledge about the lfg isn't clearly better. Sometimes it makes sense to admit mistakes or lack of knowledge and apologize.

    This morning, I sat on a HotW LFM, "all paths" for over half hour, no one joined, feeling frustrated, I put up a T3 "dailies" which filled in 32 seconds flat.

    But yah.. I have no idea about reality of the game.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Sorry, to say but you have a huge lack of information and it seems your knowledge about the lfg isn't clearly better. Sometimes it makes sense to admit mistakes or lack of knowledge and apologize.

    This morning, I sat on a HotW LFM, "all paths" for over half hour, no one joined, feeling frustrated, I put up a T3 "dailies" which filled in 32 seconds flat.

    But yah.. I have no idea about reality of the game.

    You are comparing dailies for fractals with a HotW all path lfg posting? During off hours on top of all? Cool, seems legit objectivity wise.

    Have you tried running something not daily related on fractals?

    Or better yet, do your comparison during prime time when comparing such nonsense?

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Sorry, to say but you have a huge lack of information and it seems your knowledge about the lfg isn't clearly better. Sometimes it makes sense to admit mistakes or lack of knowledge and apologize.

    This morning, I sat on a HotW LFM, "all paths" for over half hour, no one joined, feeling frustrated, I put up a T3 "dailies" which filled in 32 seconds flat.

    But yah.. I have no idea about reality of the game.

    Lol, after this post nobody will take you seriously in this forum anymore. Well played!

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