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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]


Chaith.8256

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@coro.3176 said:

They should nerf 15 specs though. If everything is OP, then .. everything is OP. They wont, but they should..

Holo is considered balanced and I still feel like I'm doing too much damage to everything.

Convince people that core War, core Guard, core Ele, core Thief builds need to be nerfed down to Engineer level, I'm not that masochistic. The new 'balanced' tier will be where a lot of HoT elite specs sit after the years of toning down. There's nothing wrong with that, imo.

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One think that i see lacking in core engi, is a type of condi cleanse, a proper one, that doesnt fuck you again after using it (i'm talking to you Elixir C.)

We need more condi cleanse options that don't rely on the usage of Elixirs. Imagine if the AED toolbelt had this, agood condi clense on it?, or just like Chaith suggestion with utility googles, we need more stuff like that one.

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Relevant:

Do you know who you're talking to?

Could care less if he's top 10, especially since the pvp in this game is easy as hell to do, hell ive even seen renegades and naked revs get top 50 ez. Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

Relevant:

Do you know who you're talking to?

Could care less if he's top 10, especially since the pvp in this game is easy as hell to do, hell ive even seen renegades and naked revs get top 50 ez. Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other core builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

You haven't made a point or provided evidence, more like just attempting to speak core Engi into being as good as other core/elite specs when it's not :(

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You haven't made a point or provided evidence, more like just attempting to speak core Engi into being as good as other core/elite specs when it's not :(

This is why i said mostly all your buffs were either pointless or just op

Weapon Skills1.) This is just dum b, pistol is a condi weapon, if this was to happen then pistols condi damage would have to be toned down2.) Same thing as 1

Utility Skills1.) Again no, utility goggles is great as is, this change would make holo stupidly op against ranger, scourge, ele and rev2.) Agreed3.) This would make slick shoes the most broken skill in the game, unevadable 2 second knockdown with 1 sec cd with ammo system?4.) Useless buff as not every class has stability and some might have more important boons5.) This would make mine field even more useless6.) I lol'd at this part, you shoulda just said to make elixir r a much more op version of resistance7.) This wouldn't be good, engi already has a descent amount of cleanse, giving even more would make it like firebrand8.) Orbital strike already deals a ton of damage, this buff would just make it dumb

Healing Skills1.) cast time could use a reduction, but making a skill grant all boons is too much, especially since engi has tons of boons baseline2.) See 13.) Yes

Core engi traits

Explosives1.) Not needed2.) No thank you, engi has enough fields and field duration as is3.) This trait doesnt even need a buff

Firearms1.) No please, engi already has a ton of stability, with this change they'd be perma stability gods2.) Pointless3.) Your proposal would make blunderbuss and overcharged shot way too strong4.)Maybe5.) This is another bad change, engi already has a lot of bleed uptime, this change would be too effective

Inventions1.) Dude engi already has a ton of blast finishers, with this change they'd have as much stealth as thief and mes do2.) Not needed, this trait is fine as3.) Pointless buff, 300 barrier does nothing4.) no5.) Turrets would be way too strong in pvp if this happened

Didnt bother going into alchemy since the whole traitline is great and since you're only talking core, going into scrapper and holo wasn't needed

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@Coolguy.8702 said:stuff

Many suggested changes you consider pointless I feel the implications may go deeper than you realize, some work together.

It's not as easy as you think to make terrible builds into OP territory. Like firearms, turrets, camping a specific weapon for Juggernaut ticks.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

Relevant:

Do you know who you're talking to?

Could care less if he's top 10, especially since the pvp in this game is easy as hell to do, hell ive even seen renegades and naked revs get top 50 ez. Point is, core engi is fine and just as good as the other builds, tho for some reason he doesnt want to admit it, holo and the op specs (like scourge snd mirage), just need to be toned down.

Looking forward to your top 50 naked core engi bro.

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@Ivantreil.3092 said:One think that i see lacking in core engi, is a type of condi cleanse, a proper one, that doesnt kitten you again after using it (i'm talking to you Elixir C.)

We need more condi cleanse options that don't rely on the usage of Elixirs. Imagine if the AED toolbelt had this, agood condi clense on it?, or just like Chaith suggestion with utility googles, we need more stuff like that one.

My suggesting for Utility Goggles are pretty much to have this currently very un-slottable stunbreak allow windows where you can't be weakened on top of its previous effects, it's more about offensive utility than proper condi cleanse.

You speak more of defensive condition cleanse, I think it's not awesome that Alchemy is the only source of condition removal, but of course core Engi doesn't need access to more condition cleanse. Instead, core Engi either really needs access to the means to deal with power spikes, or have respectable instant counter pressure. Core Engi for example can build for pretty decent condi removal but shockingly few options for power spike outside of the only thing that works, elixir S. Shield is a non factor and tool kit's two second block is really it. Being able to have competitive defensive Slick Shoes, Invention's Turret Reflect being more precise, defensive Throw Mine disrupts, Jump Shot Evade, Juggernaut stability for pure Rifle/Pistol/FT camping builds, core Engi would definitely have a few more options to avoid getting rushed down and fodder-ized.

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One thing I have always wanted to see is with Medkit is for them to change the abilities into shout aoe. Reduce the duration of all of the boons by half or roughly there about since it will be able to effect 5 (going off base aoe mechanics) rather then just the single player it used to.Med kit as is, is just so cumbersome and for the majority of the time I find that I either don't land the skills or the wrong person grabs the tonic.

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@Dei Veien.2456 said:One thing I have always wanted to see is with Medkit is for them to change the abilities into shout aoe. Reduce the duration of all of the boons by half or roughly there about since it will be able to effect 5 (going off base aoe mechanics) rather then just the single player it used to.Med kit as is, is just so cumbersome and for the majority of the time I find that I either don't land the skills or the wrong person grabs the tonic.

Added skill update: Thrown Med Kit abilities affect 5 unique targets before being consumed off the ground.

I'm sure I would prefer AoE healing like everyone else, but another rework to Med Kit seems unlikely.

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@Imperadordf.2687 said:Excuse me, I am a pleb but isn't Engineer in a good spot in PvP at the moment and wouldn't these changes make it beyond broken?

It's a build diversity initiative that aims to not at all increase the strength of the only usable PvP build, Rifle Holosmith. Only dead traits and skills are buffed. Small shave to Crystal Configuration: Eclipse stability duration, actually.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Imperadordf.2687 said:Excuse me, I am a pleb but isn't Engineer in a good spot in PvP at the moment and wouldn't these changes make it beyond broken?

No you still didn't get it, Engineer =/= Rifle Holosmith. He meant that Rifle Holosmith is in a good spot.

He's not agreeing with you, you think core Engi is fine, and not needing buffs. My point still stands, Core Thief, Core Ele, Core Warrior, Core Guard, these are at the level that other core builds need to come up to.

He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

Literally every engineer in PvP right now doing decently is Rifle Holo. People say Engi is good, that's what they're referring to, man. People who are new to the scene, as he implied by calling himself a 'pleb' just know that Engi is doing good. It's true, Rifle Holo. I know you're desperate to think someone agrees that core Engi is really good, but it's bad :(

It's not like it's some cosmic injustice, but lots of other professions have a couple relevant builds, I'd like to see that as well.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

Literally every engineer in PvP right now doing decently is Rifle Holo. People say Engi is good, that's what they're referring to, man. People who are new to the scene, as he implied by calling himself a 'pleb' just know that Engi is doing good. It's true, Rifle Holo. I know you're desperate to think someone agrees that core Engi is really good, but it's bad :(

It's not like it's some cosmic injustice, but lots of other professions have a couple relevant builds, I'd like to see that as well.

I already know people who agree with me on core engi. Again he agreed with me in the fact that your suggestions would make engi in general op, man. Also not many proffesions have build diversity, warrior, ele, mesmer, and revenant use mostly 1 build for pvp

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@Chaith.8256 said:Utility Skills4.) Throw Mine: Currently: Throw a mine that damages, knocks back, and removes a boon. New: Instead of removing a boon, Throw mine can only remove stability.While throw mine is certainly a underwhelming skill to say the least, deterministic stability removal is something that shouldn't exist. With the removal of pulsing stability from the game several patches ago, deterministic stability rip is enormously punitive, especially to melee classes, with little to no real counter play. It'ss bad enough that thieves have it, we don't need more of it.In my opinion all boonrip should be random, thus allowing some level of counterplay via cover boons, while not eliminating the value of boonrips.Alchemy5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for each boon on you. New: Instead, gain 1 second of protection and remove a condition when one of your boons is affected by a boon removal effect.This is way too niche. Such a implementation would have little to no value against most matchups, but at the same time, would make engi completely shutout hardcounter specific matchups such as Mallyx rev, all core necro variants, and all reaper variants.

The trait would need a ICD in order not be a "click here to counter necros" trait, but at the same time if it had a ICD it would cease to have value since everything outside of necros and mallyx rev don't have the boonrip to warrant picking such a trait.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:He didnt say anthing about rifle holo so idk why you even brought that up. He agreed with me in the fact that most of your changes would make engineer op. Once agai, core engi is fine, Period.

Literally every engineer in PvP right now doing decently is Rifle Holo. People say Engi is good, that's what they're referring to, man. People who are new to the scene, as he implied by calling himself a 'pleb' just know that Engi is doing good. It's true, Rifle Holo. I know you're desperate to think someone agrees that core Engi is really good, but it's bad :(

It's not like it's some cosmic injustice, but lots of other professions have a couple relevant builds, I'd like to see that as well.

I already know people who agree with me on core engi. Again he agreed with me in the fact that your suggestions would make engi in general op, man. Also not many proffesions have build diversity, warrior, ele, mesmer, and revenant use mostly 1 build for pvp

Okay so you're just anti-build diversity, got it.. shouldn't strive for that because 'war, ele, mesmer and revenant use mostly 1.'

To actually address your comments, for PvP, Warrior:

Warrior:

Spellbreaker, A tier build.Core Warrior, A- tier build.

Ele:Core Fresh Air, A tier build.Weaver (Sword Dagger), A- tier build.

Mesmer:EU Dueling Mirage: A+ tier build.NA Inspiration Mirage A tier build.NA Power Mirage A- tier buildChronomancer: A tier build

Revenant sucks, I agree.

Engi has Holosmith rifle, at least we can interchange tools/explosives, but ideally having the build diversity that Mesmer has would be amazing.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:Utility Skills4.) Throw Mine: Currently: Throw a mine that damages, knocks back, and removes a boon. New: Instead of removing a boon, Throw mine can only remove stability.While throw mine is certainly a underwhelming skill to say the least, deterministic stability removal is something that shouldn't exist. With the removal of pulsing stability from the game several patches ago, deterministic stability rip is enormously punitive, especially to melee classes, with little to no real counter play. It'ss bad enough that thieves have it, we don't need more of it.In my opinion all boonrip should be random, thus allowing some level of counterplay via cover boons, while not eliminating the value of boonrips.Alchemy5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for each boon on you. New: Instead, gain 1 second of protection and remove a condition when one of your boons is affected by a boon removal effect.This is way too niche. Such a implementation would have little to no value against most matchups, but at the same time, would make engi completely shutout hardcounter specific matchups such as Mallyx rev, all core necro variants, and all reaper variants.

The trait would need a ICD in order not be a "click here to counter necros" trait, but at the same time if it had a ICD it would cease to have value since everything outside of necros and mallyx rev don't have the boonrip to warrant picking such a trait.

Fair criticisms.. actually I just deleted my Iron-Blooded changes, I was no longer fond of it either. It's a dead trait, I'll think of something else for it.

I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

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New Iron-Blooded suggestion:

5.) Iron-Blooded: Currently: Reduce damage taken by 2% for every boon on you. New: When inside an Engineering Kit, gain protection. Interval: 1s, duration 1s. In combat. (Note: This trait will be a great defensive option for Core Engineers using: Grenade, Bomb, Flamethrower, Tool Kit, as Elixir Gun wielding Scrappers & Holosmiths will prefer to use HGH and not camp the kit.)

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@Chaith.8256 said:I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

But deterministic rips is not the way to go. If you find throw mine's rip underwhelming then simply increase the boons removed. I main reaper, and I find that [Corrupt Boon] despite only corrupting 3 boons, will most of the time hit what I want it to hit, but at the same time, since it's random it's not a 100% guaranteed screw-over for classes dependent on a important boon. Plus general boonrip is more flexible because sometimes you're more interested in removing boons other than stab. For example as a necro I will prioritize targeting might when fighting a holosmith as to inhibit the holosmith's ability to delete me.

Also I would say that scourge's ability to wipe a entire boon bar is something that should never have existed. Boonrip should be distributed not concentrated.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

But deterministic rips is not the way to go. If you find throw mine's rip underwhelming then simply increase the boons removed. I main reaper, and I find that [Corrupt Boon] despite only corrupting 3 boons, will most of the time hit what I want it to hit, but at the same time, since it's random it's not a 100% guaranteed screw-over for classes dependent on a important boon. Plus general boonrip is more flexible because sometimes you're more interested in removing boons other than stab. For example as a necro I will prioritize targeting might when fighting a holosmith as to inhibit the holosmith's ability to delete me.

Also I would say that scourge's ability to wipe a entire boon bar is something that should never have existed. Boonrip should be distributed not concentrated.

Yeah a deterministic rip would be a double edged sword, unable to rip anything unless the condition is met, unlike Steal, which puts stability and protection first but can steal any two boons that are present, for example, a juicy 25 might stacks.

I don't see how steal is tolerable by the same standards.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:I think deterministic stability removal is good in very select doses. For mechanics that remove a good amount of boons, on a boon-hate heavy class, RNG is essential. The engineer's ability to remove 1 boon per mine is pretty pointless. The Engineer is SO cc dependent, I think landing a throw mine to rip Stability, and comboing CC off that would make it an extremely useful skill where it's never been used in PvP before.

PvP has really become all about boons, and having a scourge to clean boons, I really dislike that and wish ArenaNet would implement work arounds to group stability spam.

But deterministic rips is not the way to go. If you find throw mine's rip underwhelming then simply increase the boons removed. I main reaper, and I find that [Corrupt Boon] despite only corrupting 3 boons, will most of the time hit what I want it to hit, but at the same time, since it's random it's not a 100% guaranteed screw-over for classes dependent on a important boon. Plus general boonrip is more flexible because sometimes you're more interested in removing boons other than stab. For example as a necro I will prioritize targeting might when fighting a holosmith as to inhibit the holosmith's ability to delete me.

Also I would say that scourge's ability to wipe a entire boon bar is something that should never have existed. Boonrip should be distributed not concentrated.

Yeah a deterministic rip would be a double edged sword, unable to rip anything unless the condition is met, unlike Steal, which puts stability and protection first but can steal any two boons that are present, for example, a juicy 25 might stacks.

I don't see how steal is tolerable by the same standards.

Oh you have no idea. I could write a novel on the evils of thieves and how detrimental thieves are to the quality of play for the rest of us, but that is outside of the purview of this thread.

Although as far as I know steal has a limit to how many might stacks it steals, i.e it won't steal a full stack. Larcenous Strike however has no limits.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

Okay so you're just anti-build diversity, got it.. shouldn't strive for that because 'war, ele, mesmer and revenant use mostly 1.'

To actually address your comments, for PvP, Warrior:

Warrior:

Spellbreaker, A tier build.Core Warrior, A- tier build.

Ele:Core Fresh Air, A tier build.Weaver (Sword Dagger), A- tier build.

Mesmer:EU Dueling Mirage: A+ tier build.NA Inspiration Mirage A tier build.NA Power Mirage A- tier buildChronomancer: A tier build

Revenant sucks, I agree.

Engi has Holosmith rifle, at least we can interchange tools/explosives, but ideally having the build diversity that Mesmer has would be amazing.

Engi also has the condi flamethrower build, and chronomanker is kinda shitty compared to mirage atm. Also I’ve yet to see a core warrior or core fresh air else in pvp. Engi has tons of build diversity man, you just gotta figure it out

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