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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]


Chaith.8256

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@RedSPINE.7845 said:@Coolguy.8702 Stop telling things if you want to convince us, show us ! :) Put some videos of people doing great with core engineer. I've tried to play condition but I got destroyed and quickly stopped but well, if you say it's good, I'm ready to trust you. But you won't convince anyone until you put some serious arguments on the table.

Preferably high rank/level play too, if you don't mind.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

Engi also has the condi flamethrower build, and chronomanker is kinda kitten compared to mirage atm. Also I’ve yet to see a core warrior or core fresh air else in pvp. Engi has tons of build diversity man, you just gotta figure it out

Yeah, the metabattle entry for Flamethrower condi uses my old customisation as I'm the only streamer for that niche, I am familiar with the build. It was a B+ tier build throughout HoT but now it's C tier or lower, depending on who you ask due to the lack of enemy Revenants and Druids with windows of vulnerability to condi burst. Combine an increase in natural enemies such as Scourges, Mesmers, and Firebrand condi clears, flamethrower condi and burn Guardian have gone down to crap tier. I know my PvP builds.

Chronomancer is not bad compared to Mirage. Very good conquest build still, on par with D/P Thief, Holosmith, and many others in terms of what they bring to the table. Also before you said you haven't seen core Ele in PvP, well, it owns in solo queue, watch Phantaram's stream some time, it's almost always better than Weaver.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said

Yeah, the metabattle entry for Flamethrower condi uses my old customisation as I'm the only streamer for that niche, I am familiar with the build. It was a B+ tier build throughout HoT but now it's C tier or lower, depending on who you ask due to the lack of enemy Revenants and Druids with windows of vulnerability to condi burst. Combine an increase in natural enemies such as Scourges, Mesmers, and Firebrand condi clears, flamethrower condi and burn Guardian have gone down to crap tier. I know my PvP builds.

Chronomancer is not bad compared to Mirage. Very good conquest build still, on par with D/P Thief, Holosmith, and many others in terms of what they bring to the table. Also before you said you haven't seen core Ele in PvP, well, it owns in solo queue, watch Phantaram's stream some time, it's almost always better than Weaver.

Comparing chrono to mirage is like comparing deadeye to daredevil, proved my point when you said scourge mesmer and firebrand condi clears basically need to be nerfed. But lemme ask you a question, What are you trying to get out of this? Even if all these buffs went thro (which will nevr happen) rifle holo will still be best build and core engi would, according to you, "still be bad" in everything execpt raiding in pve

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said

Yeah, the metabattle entry for Flamethrower condi uses my old customisation as I'm the only streamer for that niche, I am familiar with the build. It was a B+ tier build throughout HoT but now it's C tier or lower, depending on who you ask due to the lack of enemy Revenants and Druids with windows of vulnerability to condi burst. Combine an increase in natural enemies such as Scourges, Mesmers, and Firebrand condi clears, flamethrower condi and burn Guardian have gone down to crap tier. I know my PvP builds.

Chronomancer is not bad compared to Mirage. Very good conquest build still, on par with D/P Thief, Holosmith, and many others in terms of what they bring to the table. Also before you said you haven't seen core Ele in PvP, well, it owns in solo queue, watch Phantaram's stream some time, it's almost always better than Weaver.

Comparing chrono to mirage is like comparing deadeye to daredevil, proved my point when you said scourge mesmer and firebrand condi clears basically need to be nerfed. But lemme ask you a question, What are you trying to get out of this? Even if all these buffs went thro (which will nevr happen) rifle holo will still be best build and core engi would, according to you, "still be bad" in everything execpt raiding in pve

You're saying according to me, if ArenaNet added every change I suggested that core Engi would still be bad? No, these suggestions would allow for a highly diverse selection of skills and traits to be used on core Engi, Scrapper, and Holosmith, establishing many builds of usefulness compared to the current PvP picks available, without increasing any build to S tier.

What am I trying to get out of this? Well this is a forum post, I want to share my ideas. The goal would be to just discuss positive changes with people that are interested in the same. What are you trying to get out of this? Besides trying to seem knowledgable about PvP builds and getting x-posed

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@Coolguy.8702 said:No not really, almost all your changes were just in the wrong direction and dum b

What im trying to get of this is convincing you that core engi is perfectly fine which you should already know. You havent made any point towards me or given proof so your for sure not exposing nobody bro

You can probably get VoDs from his twitch stream for hours upon hours of actual playtesting.

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What core engi build do you run that is in a good place?I can’t really imagine any decent sustained damage that is enough to help in group fights. Especially after changes to ip and grenades.Static discharge could be alright but it is reliant on taking utilities with low toolbelt cd’s and only hits one target in an aoe cleave heavy meta.

Condi engi has long cd’s with few cover condis which make it lack lustre if you go up against anyone with decent removals.

That being said. I find the majority of the time I still run tool kit and egun. Pulling people has still not gotten old especially when you can invite a range class like a dead eye into a team point fight. If only they would change the condi removal trait in holo line to be more friendly with kits (can someone please correct me and tell me they already did this)

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@Coolguy.8702 said:No not really, almost all your changes were just in the wrong direction and dum b

What im trying to get of this is convincing you that core engi is perfectly fine which you should already know. You havent made any point towards me or given proof so your for sure not exposing nobody bro

Your comments demonstrate a really awful understanding of what's working for people in PvP, I'll just use the "meta" and "great" tier builds from metabattle.com if you want a peer critiqued, outside proof. Metabattle isn't perfect, and some top builds lower than the "meta" rating are not listed, but should be.

"Coolguy.8702: No more buffs please, core engi is already pretty good"*- Metabattle: Only one non-Holo rifle build listed - irrelevant 3rd rate Core Flamethrower build. Scrapper got deleted from Metabattle.

"Coolguy.8702: Also not many proffesions have build diversity"- Metabattle: Warrior: Spellbreaker listed as "Meta", Core Warrior listed as "Great."- Metabattle: Thief: D/P Daredevil listed as "Meta", S/D Condi Daredevil listed as "Great", S/D Core Thief listed as "Great." Missing: "Be Quick or Be Killed" Non-Rifle Deadeye build, should be listed as "Great."- Metabattle: Guardian: Mantra Firebrand listed as "Meta", Medi-Trap Dragonhunter listed as "Great", Symbolic Dragohunter listed as "Great", Radiant Core Guard listed as "Great."- Metabattle: Mesmer: Carrion Ineptitude Mirage listed as "Meta", Condi Chrono listed as "Great", Missing: Zeromis' Power Mirage listed as "Great".- Metabattle: Elementalist: Sword Dagger Sage's/Avatar/Celestial Weaver, Fresh Air Core Elementalist, should be listed under "Great".- Metabattle: Ranger, Mender's Bunker Druid, listed as "Great". Avatar's Longbow Druid, listed as "Great". I think we'll be seeing a single "Great" tier tanky Soulbeast build added soon, which I've encountered a few times.

So currently, most professions have 2-4 "Great" tier or above builds. Revenant, Engineer, Necromancer, these professions have the least PvP build diversity, even while Engineer and Scourge have 'meta' tier builds. Revenant has Power Shiro, Engineer has Rifle Holosmith, and Necromancer has Condi Scourge. 2/3's of professions have some build diversity. Revenant and Necromancer need to have a thread exactly like this one in their respective profession forums, IMO.

So now we're current on what strong build options exist now, this is what I want:

There's no "Great" build for Engineer, while Rifle Holosmith is "Meta", my changes would create several "Great" tier builds, such as, but not limited to:

- Juggernaut Rifle Core Engineer, (Firearms, Alchemy) with both Elixirs variant, Advanced Turrets variant, Static Discharge variant, even Scrapper traitline (blast gyro) variants.- Grenade Rifle Core Engineer, (Explosives, Alchemy, Tools) utilizing classic Rifle, Slick Shoe & Tool Kit combos, with a Throw Mine over Tool Kit variant.- Condi Pistol Core Engineer, (Firearms, Alchemy, Inventions) utilizing Flamethrower and Bomb Kit, with new Backpack Regenerator, Iron-Blooded defense, Soothing Detonation defense buffs. Inventions with Autodefense bomb dispenser could give you a ton of group stealth without blowing your long cooldown Blasts.- Med Kit Support Scrapper, (Inventions, Alchemy, Scrapper.) Similar role to before, just taking advantages of big changes to Med Kit & related support traits. With Medic Gyro variant for better revive utility too (prot for downed body).

Ideally, all the goal would be is to have at least one "Great" Core Engi build, and one "Great" Scrapper build, maybe with a few variants. I've just provided lots of extra possibilities.. anyway, if you're confused as to what I want to create still, I'm not explaining further

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Ideally, all the goal would be is to have at least one "Great" Core Engi build, and one "Great" Scrapper build, maybe with a few variants. I've just provided lots of extra possibilities.. anyway, if you're confused as to what I want to create still, I'm not explaining further

Actually i think scrapper would still be good if it wasnt for scourge, kinda like druid on ranger, And gl to you if you think any of those changes are actually gonna happen.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:And gl to you if you think any of those changes are actually gonna happen.

Yeah no kidding, this is a dialogue with other players on the forums, not a balance dev meeting.

@Coolguy.8702 said:

Actually i think scrapper would still be good if it wasnt for scourge, kinda like druid on ranger

Yep, it'd be great if it wasn't trash.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

Yeah no kidding, this is a dialogue with other players on the forums, not a balance dev meeting.

Yep, it'd be great if it wasn't trash.

Honestly dude just play another class if you keep calling engi trash, I understand you want engi to have tons of great builds but at least listen to what i gotta say, pre PoF engi had 3 descent builds (rifle, scrapper and flamethrower) then PoF came and it shrunk down to 1, this proves its just a powercreep issue that will be fixed lster on when all the nerfs come. And if you know none of those changes are gonna happen then why suggest em in the first place? Either way good luckto you mate, hope you go on 12 game losing streak with -30 per game :)

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

Honestly dude just play another class if you keep calling engi trash, I understand you want engi to have tons of great builds but at least listen to what i gotta say, pre PoF engi had 3 descent builds (rifle, scrapper and flamethrower) then PoF came and it shrunk down to 1, this proves its just a powercreep issue that will be fixed lster on when all the nerfs come. And if you know none of those changes are gonna happen then why suggest em in the first place? Either way good luckto you mate, hope you go on 12 game losing streak with -30 per game :)

I'm not playing trash tier Engi and Scrapper, no. Something you may not consider, even if Scourge is brought down to other A tier builds, it'll still always exist, and thus, pure Melee with abundant boons like Scrapper, Power Rev, these will always be useless as it is currently. Power creep is not the only issue that dictates what builds are useless, the OTHER META BUILDS play a key role too. So every expansion it's good to check to see if you completely erased certain specializations by upping the AoE corrupts and AoE conditions.

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I guess engineer players really love engineers after all. At least, I do, and I won't ever play another class unless it's a badass mad scientist throwing bombs acid and gas on the battlefield while switching between a KITTEN FLAMETHROWER and a shotgun. I kitten love engineer, and what I love too in a game is diversity, I play engineer because I like classes that can be creative, but in the spot the engineer is right now, I feel like being creative also comes with being dumb because the actual meta is one build to rule them all. That makes me pretty sad and I want to see great things, new things, surprise my opponents and my mates with new things aswell. But right now this is too sad, the surprise comes from the fact you'll melt incredibly quickly if not playing the right thing. All those long casting times on the engineer doesn't help too ... I don't really know how the other people feel but I won't ever play something different because I'm in love with the design of the engineer.

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@Crinn.7864 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@Coolguy.8702 said:

Honestly dude just play another class if you keep calling engi trash, I understand you want engi to have tons of great builds but at least listen to what i gotta say, pre PoF engi had 3 descent builds (rifle, scrapper and flamethrower) then PoF came and it shrunk down to 1, this proves its just a powercreep issue that will be fixed lster on when all the nerfs come. And if you know none of those changes are gonna happen then why suggest em in the first place? Either way good luckto you mate, hope you go on 12 game losing streak with -30 per game :)

I keep hoping scourge gets shot and killed turret engi style. Scourge brings nothing healthy to pvp and is as cancerous to fight as a thief is.

Yup, cover the entire point in sand shades and instantly support your allies in it, but please no instant corrupts and blanketing the playing field with death. Whether its balanced or OP is irrelevant

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Not core engi, but... been playing boon rifle with scrapper, after the Spellbreaker nerfs, i decided to ditch seekers and swap it to berserker, everything else remains similar....This build defenitely had better days before the PoF boon corruption fiesta, but hey, at least im still having some success, and saldy, what i hate is, that im having more success than any other build that has passed trough my mind, the build sucks against bunker druids, it requires a +1, but for anything else, ive been finding a way to kill it.

Dodge engi? doesnt hit too hard, and not enough utilties/traits for make a build focused in evades, elixir r cant carry the build alone...

Grenade engi? The toolbelt damage is orgasmic, but dear god, its hard af to hit anything, by the time you start hitting, you also start getting the aggro... something that you dont want...

Tool kit engi? its impossible to survive the melee shit of this meta, engi doesnt exist in melee range, it cant handle it, but what about the combo potential? welp, it doesnt hit hard enough for justify it...

Healer engi?.... no.... just no, not even as a rez bot....

My results so far.

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@Ivantreil.3092 said:Not core engi, but... been playing boon rifle with scrapper, after the Spellbreaker nerfs, i decided to ditch seekers and swap it to berserker, everything else remains similar....This build defenitely had better days before the PoF boon corruption fiesta, but hey, at least im still having some success, and saldy, what i hate is, that im having more success than any other build that has passed trough my mind, the build sucks against bunker druids, it requires a +1, but for anything else, ive been finding a way to kill it.

Dodge engi? doesnt hit too hard, and not enough utilties/traits for make a build focused in evades, elixir r cant carry the build alone...

Grenade engi? The toolbelt damage is orgasmic, but dear god, its hard af to hit anything, by the time you start hitting, you also start getting the aggro... something that you dont want...

Tool kit engi? its impossible to survive the melee kitten of this meta, engi doesnt exist in melee range, it cant handle it, but what about the combo potential? welp, it doesnt hit hard enough for justify it...

Healer engi?.... no.... just no, not even as a rez bot....

My results so far.

The most cohesive builds that exist for Core Engi in PvP (imo):

Updated Condi engi, (Tool Kit and Power Wrench variant is fine.)http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQJAqalUUhatY9VwvLQ+FLsFlYHNFPxYOOG1G4HWiBAA-jJRHQBJpMACfAAVY/BAcCAAA

Wizard Grenades:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLsF1XSlhHAYIuBBgYHNFPBA-jJRHQBA4BAMwLAgKLDQi9HAA

Power Grenades:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLTG046bfEEfWBCw3+S+zB-jJxHQBB8CAIi9HAwDAgelBAA

And Scrapper has a Power Grenades variant as well:http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vdAQFAUlUUhSsY9Vw6KQ+FLTGl4zUABw3+kcPH9cn37NA-jJRQABo+AAkuMw3XAAA2fAA

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I'm not playing trash tier Engi and Scrapper, no. Something you may not consider, even if Scourge is brought down to other A tier builds, it'll still always exist, and thus, pure Melee with abundant boons like Scrapper, Power Rev, these will always be useless as it is currently. Power creep is not the only issue that dictates what builds are useless, the OTHER META BUILDS play a key role too. So every expansion it's good to check to see if you completely erased certain specializations by upping the AoE corrupts and AoE conditions.

Scourge will get nerfed and those melee builds will be good again, theres no avoiding that. And tbh you're just proving my point of the game having power creep issues with this and your other comments.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

I'm not playing trash tier Engi and Scrapper, no. Something you may not consider, even if Scourge is brought down to other A tier builds, it'll still always exist, and thus, pure Melee with abundant boons like Scrapper, Power Rev, these will always be useless as it is currently. Power creep is not the only issue that dictates what builds are useless, the OTHER META BUILDS play a key role too. So every expansion it's good to check to see if you completely erased certain specializations by upping the AoE corrupts and AoE conditions.

Scourge will get nerfed and those melee builds will be good again, theres no avoiding that. And tbh you're just proving my point of the game having power creep issues with this and your other comments.

Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Engi is weaker than elite specs. Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

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Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Engi is weaker than elite specs. Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

Well at least we agree on 1 thing.... but according to your logic even if all your changes were to go thro scrapper and core engi would still be trash since they're mostly melee builds (range on engi is very bad and lackluster, surprised you didn't put range type buffs in there) and scourge puts melee builds in the trash can.

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@Coolguy.8702 said:

Every xpac, Necromancer evolves into doing more damage, and in a bigger radius. It's always the exact same role - teamfight carry and boon rip, accompanied by support.

It'll get nerfed more in 3 months, I agree, but not enough to make Scrapper, Herald, Reaper, and especially not Engi good, Engi is weaker than elite specs. Here is why: ArenaNet will attempt to balance it, but refuse to nerf it to the ground and build it back in another healthier role. As long as it's not nerfed into the ground, Scourge will be in every game and keep those other classes in the trashcan. It's design is a hard counter to many things, even without power creep

Well at least we agree on 1 thing.... but according to your logic even if all your changes were to go thro scrapper and core engi would still be trash since they're mostly melee builds (range on engi is very bad and lackluster, surprised you didn't put range type buffs in there) and scourge puts melee builds in the trash can.

No, I was saying nerfs alone to Scourge aren't going to make Engi viable.

Scrapper, it'll still be countered, but it would have the superspeed buffs to escape, making it worth to run it on side nodes and avoid Scourge.

Core Engi however would have a fighting chance to navigate fights vs. Scourge from range if it was allowed to fight on par with other core builds. Core Engi is not held back by Scourge unreasonably, even less than Holo and Holosmith is good. Core Engi is just worse than many core specs and elite specs. My proposed buffs to throw mine, overall defense, Rifle builds, these will allow core Engi to bomb scourges from range more safely than Holo with stronger rifles and grenades instead of mostly melee photon forge.

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@Chaith.8256 said:I'm just going to leave turrets alone, it's a lost cause.

Maybe one idea for turrets, let the overcharge abilities happen automatically at set intervals, instead of only happening once on deployment. give them a reason for being out. Also, buff their health and/or defense, since they are stationary and unable to move. Hope this sounds like a good idea!

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@Ghos.1326 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:I'm just going to leave turrets alone, it's a lost cause.

Maybe one idea for turrets, let the overcharge abilities happen automatically at set intervals, instead of only happening once on deployment. give them a reason for being out. Also, buff their health and/or defense, since they are stationary and unable to move. Hope this sounds like a good idea!

On the contrary, if turrets were being designed to be survivable, auto-attacking sustained pressure, that's the main problem with them being able to be good.

Honestly, this is what I'd do: reduce all Turret cooldown to 20s. Supply Crate CD reduced to 90s. Turrets no longer auto-attack. Cooldown starts immediately on use. Picking up turret still reduces CD by 5s. Turret duration reduced to 10s before detonating.

Experimental Turrets: Rocket Turret's Retaliation increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Healing Turret Vigor increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Thumper Turret protection increased from 3 to 5 seconds. Flame Turret's might stacks increased from 3 to 5 stacks.

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