Can we get a permanent way to display KP for raid bosses? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can we get a permanent way to display KP for raid bosses?

I'm (relatively) new to raiding. Started about 6 weeks ago, now have 43 LI and finally killed Deimos so I've now killed every boss at least once. However, I don't have a lot of inventory space sitting around - especially with legendary collections and gearing multiple characters.

SO, I cannot afford to keep 1 stack of decorations for each boss around just to ping whenever someone wants kill proof. That, and my guild likes to use them to decorate.

Why can't we get some non-economy-affecting method of showing kills ingame? Maybe a title for each one? At minimum a keyring so it only takes 1 inventory spot.

This is frustrating and counts people out from a decent number of LFG raids - which is the primary way I have access to them.

Comments

  • Lunarlife.5128Lunarlife.5128 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 18, 2017

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game.

    Irrelevant. The need for challenging content (that introducing raids supposedly fixed) was also a problem coming from the community, not from the game. In fact, there's a ton of problems devs solved (or tried to) in the past that were like that as well.

    Besides, that's not even true - the need to ping KP is a problem that is directly derived from the difficulty level of the content. After all, if raids weren't that hard, most people would not care about KPs (just as only a very tiny minority bothered to ask others for gear ping in the Dungeon Speedrun Era)

    Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights. On the contrary, people finish raids with comps different from the meta ever day. In effect, the OP is asking for ANet to make it easier for people to impose unnecessary restrictions on others; that hardly seems like something ANet is likely to worry about.

    For whatever reason, there will always be people who assume that pinging gear (or LI or whatever) is evidence of being able to play well. That doesn't make it true and it doesn't mean the game devs should support the practice.

    This. Ability to play, playing with others is all good. The XP requirements right now limit the amount of raiders in general.

    Also, I have about 10 kills that are uncounted by my "KP". That 10 kills will likely increase over time (Just started raiding about 3 weeks ago).

  • To be fair, though - people are going to continue using the game in this way. It makes sense that people want proof that their squad-mates can perform. Not everyone wants to sit around and teach people to do a fight.

    What I am trying to suggest is putting a scaffold in place so that a whatever system the players choose can be inclusive rather than exclusive. Right now there are competing design factors.
    1. Get kills, acquire decorations, proudly show off decorations to your friends and guild mates
    2. Get kills, acquire decorations, hold them in inventory to prove you have kills so you can get more kills for more decorations

    'Fixing' this could be straightforward and simple. Yes, its an issue created by the playerbase. However, games are nothing without players. And games are better when they understand how players are interacting with their content.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017

    Your way to avoid the clear proof cluttering inventory is to link the mini, and if the mini hasn't dropped for you, copy and paste a chat code from a chat code generator.

    Using made up chat codes is only bad when you don't know the fight, but if you can perform nobody will be able to tell whether you lied about the item or not.

    The stupid KP items were eating up a good 10+ slots of my inventory so I simply made a word document with chat code links to provide in game so I wouldn't need to carry KP around.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anet could if they wanted to make a way to track these things since we already have loot lockouts it wouldn't be all that hard to showcase how many times someone has killed something in a UI element make it private or public and assign a range of values like

    1-5 (Greenhorn)
    6-10 (Neophyte)
    11-20 (Mercenary)
    21-50 (Veteran)
    51-99 (Tactician)

    Just as examples for "ranks" and just showcase the title they fall in.
    However, im sure that was discussed prior to raids and they'd rather not run into enforcing a standard themselves and just want players to do what players do. Some care, others don't let the individual find the right group for them.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I doubt Arena Net will ever do this because this would be enforcing a player behavior they don't want to exist (But will exist anyway)...

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Joxer.6024Joxer.6024 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mithos.5182 said:
    I'm (relatively) new to raiding. Started about 6 weeks ago, now have 43 LI and finally killed Deimos so I've now killed every boss at least once. However, I don't have a lot of inventory space sitting around - especially with legendary collections and gearing multiple characters.

    SO, I cannot afford to keep 1 stack of decorations for each boss around just to ping whenever someone wants kill proof. That, and my guild likes to use them to decorate.

    Why can't we get some non-economy-affecting method of showing kills ingame? Maybe a title for each one? At minimum a keyring so it only takes 1 inventory spot.

    This is frustrating and counts people out from a decent number of LFG raids - which is the primary way I have access to them.

    I'm just blown away by the fact you have done every boss! kitten, nice guild. I have 180LIs and have yet to see the last Bosses of W2,3,4.....so sad. ;)

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game. There is nothing to be fix on game's side.

    Not everybody wants to spend hours before each clear weeding out unexperienced players from experienced ones just to get a few boss kills. You remove killproof, you remove pug raiding, its as simple as that. Without a way to at least guess at someones experience beforehand, the tolerance for unexperienced or even only unknown players will decrease even more.

    Other games have detailed statistics you can view on each player, not just how many times someone killed a boss, but also avg dps, amount of deaths etc. And I mean, PvP statistic shows that its possible for anet to do something similar and then use either api or some kind of ingame statistics viewer for showing it.

    Simple truth is, Anet just doesnt care enough to funnel resources into developing something like that.

    And why should they? Less space in your bank tabs means you are more inclined to buy additional ones.
    Take me for example. I have nearly 1 stack of each guildhall ornament + 3 stacks of LI sitting in my bank. Thats 16 bank slots I cant use for anything else. And its just gonna keep growing. Next wing, its gonna be 19-20 bankslots permanent in use. Its a win-win situation for Anet.

  • @Yasi.9065 said:

    @Kheldorn.5123 said:
    The need to ping KP is a problem coming from community, not from the game. There is nothing to be fix on game's side.

    Not everybody wants to spend hours before each clear weeding out unexperienced players from experienced ones just to get a few boss kills.

    While true, it's moot: kill count, LI, and so on don't measure player skill; they only measure kills, LI, and so ons. What skilled PUGs are looking for are... other skilled PUGs and there's no way to measure that in any game. It's completely reasonable to want to find other skilled people, but until you actually play with other people, you won't actually know how good they are.

    Just the same as pick-up games work in real life. You can hang out a basketball court or chess club, but it doesn't mean you're as good as the people there. There's also no way to tell until people see you in action.

    You want to know if people have been successful in past raids? Ask them how they did it. 2 minutes of questions versus 30 minutes of frustration seems like a good deal. And it's something people can do now, without waiting for ANet to agree that this is something that should be in the game.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasi.9065 said:
    Take me for example. I have nearly 1 stack of each guildhall ornament + 3 stacks of LI sitting in my bank. Thats 16 bank slots I cant use for anything else. And its just gonna keep growing. Next wing, its gonna be 19-20 bankslots permanent in use. Its a win-win situation for Anet.

    Well, that's your decision but you don't have to do that, at least not for the guild hall ornaments!

    It's a simple use of brain power:

    1. You can put your KPs from bosses in the guild hall immediately if you are or want to become a dedicated raider.
      Why? Buy the mini (stop hesitating you'll get enough magnetite shards in the future, kitten) or you already got it as a drop (most likely after killing a boss around 5-10 times!). A mini is enough as KP and LIs can be stacked in the bank (at least 250!), so there shouldn't be any problem with bank space at all. Show the mini to the squad in the aerodrome or inside the wing, don't ping it due to the possibility of chat code faking!

    2. After finishing the first collection for legendary armor you can ping pieces or the chest. The "Chest of Experimental Armor" including all their armor parts is a KP for 9 bosses. So are the collection parts just in case you haven't known.

    3. Same applies for the "Chest of Refined Envoy Armor" including all their armor parts which is a KP for all 13 bosses.

    4. Pieces of Legendary armor count as well but I think I don't have to mention that because raiders are already pinging their parts since months as combined KP (LI + boss KP), obviously.

    I have yet to be seen squads that would kick you when pinging or showing those! And if you're getting kicked although you show the mini + a decent amount of your LIs from the bank you really don't want to play with this commander/Squad anyways.
    People want you to ping LIs + a high number of KPs? Don't waste your time, move on and look for another squad.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

    The community mindset is not very elitist. Players only try to protect themselves from very very very very very bad skilled players with very very very very very bad gear and very very very very very bad trait decisions as we were proven heavily when using gear inspection tools.
    GW2 is a game for everyone, yes! But you can't play every stuff successfully with every gear/traits. People need to learn that or they will fail and fail and fail...

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights.

    I understand that. On the other hand every single QoL upgrade Anet introduced (or people want them to introduce) is exactly the same - those are/were not required, and their lack was not a sign of the game being broken in any way.
    What OP asks for is exactly that - a QoL feature, not a bugfix, so this argument of yours is completely misplaced. If Anet followed this way of thiking, no QoL would ever make it into the game. And it would be enough to shut down any such highly anticipated and requested things as, for example, build templates (not that they are working on those...).

    Whether asking for a KP ping is a good behaviour (or not) is a separate discussion altogether. The truth is, however, that it's a behaviour that is already there and not going to go away. The QoL OP asks for will just make it easier for people to live with that behaviour.

    (Notice, that i'm a person that is still disappointed that raids are even there. The fact that i see no problem with OP's suggestion is not an endorsement to raids, KP pinging, elitism in there and so on. I just don't see reason why this suggestion need to be so strongly opposed)

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I just don't see reason why this suggestion need to be so strongly opposed)

    It's more likely than not, that Anet already considered the cost/benefit of doing something like the OP suggested long ago and came to the conclusion that it's not on them to play a place in enforcing any sort of arbitrary systems that would cause even more divisive behavior than needed.

    I know that sounds strange when you bring up LI, Minipets, etc...but those are generally rewards and players have misconstrued the idea that reward=knowledge. It's not the first time (AP/Dungeon Items) it wont be the last time.

  • @Joxer.6024 said:
    I'm just blown away by the fact you have done every boss! kitten, nice guild. I have 180LIs and have yet to see the last Bosses of W2,3,4.....so sad. ;)

    Did all of them with LFG. Never got into a static guild.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    (Notice, that i'm a person that is still disappointed that raids are even there. The fact that i see no problem with OP's suggestion is not an endorsement to raids, KP pinging, elitism in there and so on. I just don't see reason why this suggestion need to be so strongly opposed)

    Why are you disappointed raids are even there? I think they're the most fun content in the game. - genuinely curious.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Will be interesting to see if they provide something like this that makes it easy to exclude people.

    Commanders in WvW have been asking for a Tag visible only to their squad, but have been repeatedly denied with the position from Anet being that the lack of a visible tag discourages people from playing the mode.

    It is bypassed in ways, but requires additional work and effort.

    Much like this fix.

    I wonder if Raids will be granted the QoL enhancement.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should show total amount of earned LI instead of your mastery points when inside a raid instance

  • Titles for each set of legendary armor you have..

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

    Its because most (a few exceptions) non-meta builds simply mean more work for others to compensate. In addition, my experience is that someone that doesnt bother with meta builds for raids just isnt that interested in raids anyway or doesnt want to spend the time practising, reading up or gearing up either. Not talking about someone trying out a new build that he or she theorycrafted and tried on golem. No, I mean people that think their wvw/openworld build and playstyle is enough for raiding and they dont have to improve anything. The whole mindset is wrong in that case and promotes toxicity. Because I can tell you, that guy is gonna fail most mechanics on top of having the totally wrong build with useless traits and stats.

    While, yes, it is correct that you can kill every boss with pretty much every build and comp... you cant do that with unexperienced players.

    Also, you are missing the point. Not having a statistic is why people are so toxic towards each other, not the other way around. A simple statistic showing:
    * how often you killed a boss
    * your preferred profession on each boss
    * how often you were dead on a successful kill
    would make it so much easier for players to find other players on their own skill-level. Not only that, but it would promote repeating bosses more than once a week without effecting the economy. The current system discourages players to raid more than once a week, which in my opinion isnt enough for players to actually "get good". Personal stats would be a way to reward practising, and also a way for "elitists" to show off other than youtube videos.

    And you forget, those toxic elitists would have to have a spotless record themselves. Quite a few I met that thought they were oh so good, actually were pretty mediocre themselves, while really good players are usually quiet and/or looking for something to improve or do better next time.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    If anything, they should remove the ability to even link proof of you killing.

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

    Couldn't agree more, as a player of many MMO's and having done hard raids in numerous other MMO's for 10+ years now, it's completely ridiculous how this games raiding community is.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    Kheldorn's point is that the game isn't broken and the game doesn't require people to prove participation in fights.

    I understand that. On the other hand every single QoL upgrade Anet introduced (or people want them to introduce) is exactly the same - those are/were not required, and their lack was not a sign of the game being broken in any way.

    This is fundamentally different. It isn't just a quality of life upgrade, it's an endorsement of the idea that it's okay to use achievements as a measure of skill. It's an issue that people think it means something that someone can ping 100 LI (or, after such a change, would be able to show 100 LI). It would be more reliable than today, but it still doesn't tell us if someone is good at getting carried or good at games.

    I think it's fine for people to want to look for ways to find other skilled players to do their dailies|weeklies with. I don't think it's elitist to want to play with folks who can play at the same level. But that's a problem for which there is no simple solution, not in RL, not in game. The best way to find other skilled players is to play with them. The second best way is to ask them how they do stuff. Good players can tell you; bad players cannot (and of course, that process is slowed by language barriers, if there are any).

    It's pretty clear in a lot of thread of people complaining about getting /kicked that the OP was part of the problem. And it's clear that in others the issue was a commander who wasn't clear on what they wanted. Both situations can be avoided if there's some conversation at the start, rather than using LI or titles as a shortcut.

    But look: you don't have to convince me. ANet's been pretty clear that they want skill to speak for itself, that "things" aren't substitutes for experience.

    tl;dr this isn't just a QoL request. It's asking ANet to change their philosophy.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    If anything, they should remove the ability to even link proof of you killing.

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

    Couldn't agree more, as a player of many MMO's and having done hard raids in numerous other MMO's for 10+ years now, it's completely ridiculous how this games raiding community is.

    That has to do way more with how the game and raid encounters are designed versus the community.

    In many traditional raiding MMOs you could out gear content or take on roles which were less demanding or punishing to the raid as a whole. You bring bad dps to a raid in WoW? No problem, that overgeared other damage dealer will cover for you on every difficulty but mythic (and the mythic crowd in WoW is just as selective and demanding if not even more so).

    On the other hand, fail a mechanic in a raid here no matter your position and you can potentially cause a wipe on most bosses without other player being able to cover or fix your mistake.

    The other aspect is, GW2 raiding is quite young and was introduced into a game where the required level of skill from the average player was barely above mouth-breather. Now a majority of these players want access to a raiding community which requires basic understanding of class, rotation, roles and synergy (the skill cap required is not even that high).

    This isn't necessarily the players fault, they were never prepared via the game to have to understand their class or build while auto piloting, semi-afk pressing 1 through open world content. It does make a selective process when making PUG groups unfortunately necessary because quite a few people would rather lie about their experience to get fast rewards than put in the effort and practice others already have.

    On topic, I would be happier with arenanet supplied raiding tools instead of kill proofs. Experienced raiders can weed out trash players after 1-2 tries according to how lenient the group is. I personally will give you a near infinite amount of tries in a practice run, but step in black twice (and this is already way more forgiving than most groups) at Deimos on a 300-400 LI or above group and you're out.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Kill proof means nothing, you can have someone buy a clear or a couple of them and get plenty of the minis and items from the boss and you can use a chat code generator for stacks (unless asked to split the stack and link fast). Titles don’t work either because people can buy or be carried through, had to replace a pug for some friends on 100CM because the pug didn’t dodge a single mechanic or use special action and was essentially wiping them on Arkk for 30 mins.

    Titles for the number of times you’ve done something might work but then again you can be carried through raids very easily which I have seen.

  • savacli.8172savacli.8172 Member ✭✭✭

    Oh boy....this again

    /SipsLemonade

    Here's the problem. GW2 was advertised as a casual game and to date still maintains that claim. As in, there is nothing mechanically that holds back a player from any of the content in game. The slight exception being Fractals that operate much like a tower; you can enter the early "floors" but you have to get your hands on certain items (ascended gear) before you can progress to the later floors. Even then the game is still generous enough to provide massive accessibility to ascended items to help get you to the later islands in fractals.

    Bringing this back to OP.... Killproof honestly demonstrates nothing. A player could have 130 LI, but I have no way of knowing whether that's 130 Vale Guard kills or 10 Full Clears. Same thing with the Boss fragments. Someone who posts 25 VG Fragments could be anywhere from a player killing VG 5 times all the way to killing VG 25 times (since fragments drop 1-5). Even worse, Killproof doesn't at all tell you what strategy was used to get the kill.

    Ultimately, at the end of the day, Killproof only proves one thing: you were there at the time of the boss's death and had credit to loot the chest. Other than that it's just word of mouth if you don't have a video to document every single kill.

    Granted, when raids first came out Killproof made a lot of sense because there was no study material: no qT builds, Dulfy hadn't posted guides, and YouTube was scarce on kill videos outside of top guilds. Suddenly casual players were being asked to spend time practicing bosses, have sensible gear, and learn to be a team player. So, yeah, it made sense that you had to prove you had been around for a kill back in the day. That all being said, killproof presentation still being a thing to this day is very much a community mindset nowadays. Personally, when I have to pug (e.g. missing nights in my static) I don't bother with squad's that ask for Killproof (and trust me, I could throw down a small army of killproof) because I find it counterproductive. I'd much rather dive right in. A squad would learn more from me by asking a handful of questions and seeing me on the field in 30 seconds than it would take to shuffle through my inventory to find a mini or to check my bank for a fragment/armor piece.

    Is it a crime to ask for killproof? It's about as much of a crime as putting ketchup on your Hot Dog instead of mustard. But there's no sense in asking the devs to put something together to further feed bad community behavior when there is much better items to have the devs look at.

    Also, in regards why other games aren't as "elitist" as GW2? Well, look at the demographic. GW2 started off casual and hardcore content (relative to its prior content). Other MMO's content was already at a higher difficulty to begin with so the community in general already has a more hardcore mindset.

  • All of you arguing about whether or not KP/LI are a good metric of experience are missing the point. I don't think they are either. But, and here's the kicker, they are what we have. In the effort to search out experienced players to do a clear run of any boss or wing, they are the only quasi-proof of experience with that content. Most people seem to be in agreement that they are poor proof. But hey, its something - and its something that the community has latched onto. Like I said earlier, good games understand how their community is interacting with their game design.

    I'm not a game designer or a game psychologist so I don't know what the answer is. But right now, the system is exclusive to newer raiders instead of inclusive. I was trying to spark discussion about fixing that.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr this isn't just a QoL request. It's asking ANet to change their philosophy.

    I disagree with you because GW2 is the way it is. If their philosophy were to militantly let skill speak for itself, then they should understand that their system is not accomplishing that. In fact, quite the opposite. If it were as you say, they should want to change the way this works such that skill can speak for itself.

    @savacli.8172 said:
    Is it a crime to ask for killproof? It's about as much of a crime as putting ketchup on your Hot Dog instead of mustard. But there's no sense in asking the devs to put something together to further feed bad community behavior when there is much better items to have the devs look at.

    No, it isn't. But I think there must be a better/more descriptive way than one number. And one that takes up inventory spots at that.

  • nagr.1593nagr.1593 Member ✭✭
    edited November 20, 2017

    @savacli.8172 said:
    Bringing this back to OP.... Killproof honestly demonstrates nothing. A player could have 130 LI, but I have no way of knowing whether that's 130 Vale Guard kills or 10 Full Clears.

    or the 3rd subset can be Chat-bound LI B) e.g. LI that exists purely in binary-to-chat text representation, without any virtual presence in an inventory or bank 'slot' ..

    Granted, when raids first came out Killproof made a lot of sense because there was no study material: no qT builds, Dulfy hadn't posted guides, and YouTube was scarce on kill videos outside of top guilds. Suddenly casual players were being asked to spend time practicing bosses, have sensible gear, and learn to be a team player. So, yeah, it made sense that you had to prove you had been around for a kill back in the day.

    intersting point thouogh, look this transition from Gearproof to Killproof (though technically Gearproof can be a subset of Killproof, but thats another matter). i think if i remember from cof p1 farm, 4 wars 1 chrono meta was the thing yah but not enuough sometime to just show up with right profession, you have to ping your gear and stuff so they can be assure of ur competence and dedication towards the then-meta. Same thing if i'm remembering correctly on arah for exp speed clears.. even I myself half-jokingly would put a post like 'arah p1 exp, ping legendary on join'.. sometimes they would actually ping but sometimes a troll would join to ridicule my post and then leave. most the exp grps did do a gear check though.. whereas now, its a kill check or a title check. not sure whether its a step up or within the same lvl of ambiguity.. it anyone's guess.

    Is it a crime to ask for killproof? It's about as much of a crime as putting ketchup on your Hot Dog instead of mustard.

    Somtimes its a crime yah.. i remember this concrete example cos it happen to me once tho. Some moron commander refuse my killproof of mini and demanded to see boss tokens or pieces (whatever the kitten that drops but only drops if you satisfy a prerequisite condition) and refuse to let me join otherwise. i don't think he was aware that it doesn't necessarily drop either. as a general rule, i never rep while raiding so i opt out of those drops, my bags enough cluttered with useless quest and rubbish repeat drops (for ex., the kind of drops that drop repeatedly again and again even after you destroy them once by type out there full names.. yah) so i dont need more useless junk on top of that.

  • @Mithos.5182 said:
    All of you arguing about whether or not KP/LI are a good metric of experience are missing the point. I don't think they are either. But, and here's the kicker, they are what we have. In the effort to search out experienced players to do a clear run of any boss or wing, they are the only quasi-proof of experience with that content. Most people seem to be in agreement that they are poor proof. But hey, its something - and its something that the community has latched onto. Like I said earlier, good games understand how their community is interacting with their game design.

    Yes, of course "they are what we have." The question is whether ANet should be in the business of trying to code it into the game, when it's demonstrably a bad metric and when it's not clear whether it's beneficial to the game to use any metric.

    I have no problem with groups wanting people to 'prove' experience. It makes it easy for me to decide to join some other group, who is more interested in people who can demonstrate expertise.

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:
    tl;dr this isn't just a QoL request. It's asking ANet to change their philosophy.

    I disagree with you because GW2 is the way it is. If their philosophy were to militantly let skill speak for itself, then they should understand that their system is not accomplishing that. In fact, quite the opposite. If it were as you say, they should want to change the way this works such that skill can speak for itself.

    On the contrary, skill speaks for itself except for that subset of people that insists on requiring "proofs". What fraction of the raid community do you think asks for LI? It's an obvious group, of course. But it's unclear if those are groups are more successful than groups that don't ask. Do they spend less total time forming|reforming groups and clearing than groups that don't ask? Are the people in these groups less frustrated overall?

    There's lots of evidence that LI/mini/title groups don't do any better, although of course none of us have enough evidence to answer any of the questions above definitively.

    In the end, it's still fundamentally different from asking ANet for "salvage all" — it's a request to support a particular style of play over other styles.
    (By the way: that doesn't mean that ANet shouldn't do it; it just means it involves more than changing the mechanics.)

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • Blue Hare.8612Blue Hare.8612 Member ✭✭
    edited November 22, 2017

    @nagr.1593 said:

    or the 3rd subset can be Chat-bound LI B) e.g. LI that exists purely in binary-to-chat text representation, without any virtual presence in an inventory or bank 'slot' ..

    I suppose that would be easy to achieve with a simple macro:

    "ENTER , Ctrl + V , ENTER"

    Then just copy the right chatcode to clipboard and you are set. The macto might require some delays in bitween keys, maybe 25ms.

    With the macro bound to a key you can even spam LI like it was in your inventory, no one can tell the difference. Dunno how common this is but being so easy I would say pretty common. LI means pretty much nothing, even if you spam it. And spamming is ugly and annoying.

    Asking to spam LI is just "Hooray! You know how chatcodes work, but can you raid?"

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the proper way to display kp atm is gw2 radar.

  • Fengzhou.9853Fengzhou.9853 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.5169 said:
    Raids not that challenging and the raiding community mindset here is far more elitist then wow and ff14 combined and the raiding content is far harder and far more traditional in those games. As a hardcore raider i'm against this our community doesn't not need to become anymore toxic then it is, we have 80% of the game afraid to raid because you guys can't stand a wipe or off meta stuff.

    It's because of this.. that I myself am terrified to even try... I REALLY want to raid, but I don't and won't tolerate someone treating me like something worse then a maggot by making a mistake. The sad thing is they just say 'join a training run!'.. when there really ISN'T many when I am online and I've had a few wipe attempts at VG but not a kill, sadly.. I'd really love to work at that beautiful legendary collection sometime and been working hard on my guardian to have both a dragonhunter gear set and firebrand set...

    I found from my experience with just VG that the mechanics in this game are by far.. simpler then any other game I've played, it's the community that creates unecessary stress. All the people who expect 'super fast ez clears' are the biggest detriment to the game in general. It doesn't just affect raids, it affects fractals too. This is the only game aside from Wildstar I've seen this stuff surface in and frankly.. we all know what happened to Wildstar when catering to that mentality was the focus. I believe it's on it's last breath.. isn't it?

  • Rennie.6750Rennie.6750 Member ✭✭✭

    The devs should just add chat codes for minis and guild hall stuff. That way there's no need to go through inventories and collections, run back and forth to the bank to grab specific stuff they're requesting, you can just spam your chat code and everyone is happy.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fengzhou.9853 said:
    It's because of this.. that I myself am terrified to even try... I REALLY want to raid, but I don't and won't tolerate someone treating me like something worse then a maggot by making a mistake. The sad thing is they just say 'join a training run!'.. when there really ISN'T many when I am online and I've had a few wipe attempts at VG but not a kill, sadly.. I'd really love to work at that beautiful legendary collection sometime and been working hard on my guardian to have both a dragonhunter gear set and firebrand set...

    1. If there is no training run you can either wait for the next to pop up or set up your own lfg. People in this game are lazy, especially in this game and I don't know why. Be pro-active and you'll be successful in the end. Worked for so many players in the past!

    2. If you really worked hard for the collection you would have no issues to hold the leggy armor in your hand.

    I found from my experience with just VG that the mechanics in this game are by far.. simpler then any other game I've played, it's the community that creates unecessary stress. All the people who expect 'super fast ez clears' are the biggest detriment to the game in general. It doesn't just affect raids, it affects fractals too. This is the only game aside from Wildstar I've seen this stuff surface in and frankly.. we all know what happened to Wildstar when catering to that mentality was the focus. I believe it's on it's last breath.. isn't it?

    Hey, you are saying raid mechanics are easy. It should be easy to lead a raid squad from the scratch and guide 10 people to victory then - easily.
    If it's so easy why aren't trainings run 100% successful? See above, open your own run with the tag "no unnecessary stress". Let's see how easy you get things done!

    The only thing I read here: "Well, I know I'm good enough to get bosses down with experienced people but they won't take me because it seems I'm unexperienced."
    I can tell you there is a lot of like minded people out there and I have raided with them. The majority is not able to kill raid bosses in few attempts. That's the reason why people set requirements. They do it for a reason because the percentage of heavy casual players is high in this game and many of them will wipe you over and over again no matter how often you'll explain the mechanics to them. Hell, just watch some random GW2 twitch streamers in training runs and you'll see that a lot of them has no clue what they have to do with their weapon or utility skills.
    Of course a few requirements are absurdly high but even dedicated raiders won't join them. On the other hand you can have around 70 LIs now of just having done Escort by now which is in no way any good marker for being prepared for other bosses like VG, Cairn or even Xera/Matthias.

  • Fengzhou.9853Fengzhou.9853 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Fengzhou.9853 said:
    It's because of this.. that I myself am terrified to even try... I REALLY want to raid, but I don't and won't tolerate someone treating me like something worse then a maggot by making a mistake. The sad thing is they just say 'join a training run!'.. when there really ISN'T many when I am online and I've had a few wipe attempts at VG but not a kill, sadly.. I'd really love to work at that beautiful legendary collection sometime and been working hard on my guardian to have both a dragonhunter gear set and firebrand set...

    1. If there is no training run you can either wait for the next to pop up or set up your own lfg. People in this game are lazy, especially in this game and I don't know why. Be pro-active and you'll be successful in the end. Worked for so many players in the past!

    2. If you really worked hard for the collection you would have no issues to hold the leggy armor in your hand.

      I found from my experience with just VG that the mechanics in this game are by far.. simpler then any other game I've played, it's the community that creates unecessary stress. All the people who expect 'super fast ez clears' are the biggest detriment to the game in general. It doesn't just affect raids, it affects fractals too. This is the only game aside from Wildstar I've seen this stuff surface in and frankly.. we all know what happened to Wildstar when catering to that mentality was the focus. I believe it's on it's last breath.. isn't it?

    Hey, you are saying raid mechanics are easy. It should be easy to lead a raid squad from the scratch and guide 10 people to victory then - easily.
    If it's so easy why aren't trainings run 100% successful? See above, open your own run with the tag "no unnecessary stress". Let's see how easy you get things done!

    The only thing I read here: "Well, I know I'm good enough to get bosses down with experienced people but they won't take me because it seems I'm unexperienced."
    I can tell you there is a lot of like minded people out there and I have raided with them. The majority is not able to kill raid bosses in few attempts. That's the reason why people set requirements. They do it for a reason because the percentage of heavy casual players is high in this game and many of them will wipe you over and over again no matter how often you'll explain the mechanics to them. Hell, just watch some random GW2 twitch streamers in training runs and you'll see that a lot of them has no clue what they have to do with their weapon or utility skills.
    Of course a few requirements are absurdly high but even dedicated raiders won't join them. On the other hand you can have around 70 LIs now of just having done Escort by now which is in no way any good marker for being prepared for other bosses like VG, Cairn or even Xera/Matthias.

    Except I tried that and people don't join.. and I'm no leader at all. I don't know majority of the fights and watching videos only goes so far. I'm extremely shy and not much of a leader. That said, I do know how to follow instruction pretty well and learn rather quick. The self confidence isn't something I have a lot of when it comes to putting that leadership step forward and it is (in my opinion) not fair to lead a group and form up and know absolutely nothing about what I'm about to walk into.

    This is a case of easier said than done for some of us. Time will tell.

  • Rhiannon.1726Rhiannon.1726 Member ✭✭✭

    There are several raid training guilds and discord groups out there, which don't ask for kill proofs.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Two advices:

    1. Look for a training guild

    2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

    It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

  • Just makes achievements linkable, geez. Also linking KP is a one of the most dumb things I ever saw in PvE game.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2017

    @Rednik.3809 said:
    Just makes achievements linkable, geez. Also linking KP is a one of the most kitten things I ever saw in PvE game.

    If you make achievements linkable, there will be chatcodes for them just like people link LIs and other stuff these days :)

    The only foolproof answer for this issue is full player inspection feature :)

  • Fengzhou.9853Fengzhou.9853 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Two advices:

    1. Look for a training guild

    2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

    It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

    Exactly why I stated why I'm not leadership material, but I can follow instruction well and learn quickly to do my role. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many chiefs cause problems as well. What's wrong with a good foot soldier? :o

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fengzhou.9853 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Two advices:

    1. Look for a training guild

    2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

    It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

    Exactly why I stated why I'm not leadership material, but I can follow instruction well and learn quickly to do my role. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many chiefs cause problems as well. What's wrong with a good foot soldier? :o

    Then look at the two advices. Many many players have done so, without using voice chats or being in there muted etc. You have to be active and look for they won't do it for you.

  • Fengzhou.9853Fengzhou.9853 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @Fengzhou.9853 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Two advices:

    1. Look for a training guild

    2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

    It's group content and if you want to succeed in a team shyness has never been a good thing. I certainly know that people have their issues and struggle here and there but maybe some things aren't working for them then.

    Exactly why I stated why I'm not leadership material, but I can follow instruction well and learn quickly to do my role. There is nothing wrong with that. Too many chiefs cause problems as well. What's wrong with a good foot soldier? :o

    Then look at the two advices. Many many players have done so, without using voice chats or being in there muted etc. You have to be active and look for they won't do it for you.

    I am sorry.. but your reply sounds like it's for someone else...? Did you even read what I had written? I'm having a hard time trying to understand what voice chat and being muted has to do with any of this. I never once stated I couldn't or wouldn't use a voice chat. I use discord all the time. I simply stated the simple fact that I am not leadership material and I follow instructions well and learn quick.. and that the stigma behind raids and how community behaves in this game are a huge detriment and drive away people like myself who are either just anxious and shy about trying.. or are just simply tired of the tryhard mentality others like to ram down our throats.

    'Make your own group!' again. I am not leadership material. I will NOT make a group without knowing what to do, how to do it. Watching videos isn't enough and isn't the same as actual experience. Then, when you have sporadic times (ie not on during prime time hours) the chances and likelyhood of landing a group for training or beyond dramatically diminishes..

    I am shocked that this is hard for people to comprehend...

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017

    Did you even read?

    1. Look for a training guild

    2. Have a look at Reddit/forum etc. for raid training initiatives

    Both things have nothing to do with leadership material! On the contrary, you'll find some interesting groups to start with that already have one or several leaders. In no way you are forced to be the boss or make calls. Those groups would appreciate your effort, your will to be a teamplayer and your subordination for the team. You'll be a lucky pick for most of the groups because it's easier to integrate a teamplayer than an egocentric player with leading ambitions just after he joined a new group.
    The only thing in which you can't be shy is to reply to a forum post, like here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/categories/looking-for-guild because those groups/guild have already been active when posting their offer. If you don't take action to answer such entrance card you won't succeed due to the reason that no one is out there knowing about your existence.
    I think you were making the wrong effort that some players did: Don't use the LFG to start raiding! (This is only recommended for people with a healthy frustration tolerance, a good self-confidence, a lot of dedication and/or experienced raiders)

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