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How to balance every single thing that's bad on Engineer [PvP]


Chaith.8256

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@Rezzet.3614 said:Mortar kit should be a power kit with disrupting condies such as blind daze and chill, instead of asking for mortar to be reworked as a condi kit ask for nades to be un nerfed i say, wish mortar kit had the old mortar 5 too :c

Agreed. On another note, the 28% damage nerf that to the Auto Attack was pretty unnecessary, it barely tickles for the drawback on how slow and cumbersome to hit things it is. My proposal in this thread's OP for that is: Orbital Command: New: In addition to its current effects, Your Orbital Strikes & Mortar Shot (Mortar #1) skill deals 33% additional damage.

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I think orbital strike is fine because it is an unblockable attack, auto attack on the other hand should have damage matching a rangers lb max range auto at the very least , if it is gonna have punishingly slow projectiles make them have a proper payback and punish reckless enemies, heck i almost deleted my engineer when i boosted a revenant to 80 and started demolishing zergs in wvw with hammer skills hitting for 4k autos and 8-12k 2-3 and 5 skills wich offer ranged non projectile damage too

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@Rezzet.3614 said:I think orbital strike is fine because it is an unblockable attack, auto attack on the other hand should have damage matching a rangers lb max range auto at the very least , if it is gonna have punishingly slow projectiles make them have a proper payback and punish reckless enemies, heck i almost deleted my engineer when i boosted a revenant to 80 and started demolishing zergs in wvw with hammer skills hitting for 4k autos and 8-12k 2-3 and 5 skills wich offer ranged non projectile damage too

Orbital Strike does very unsatisfying damage for how long of a cast time and telegraph it is.. I've literally never used it to reactively counter a block because the time to react, cast and hit with Orbital strike is longer than any block duration.

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@Rezzet.3614 said:I think orbital strike is fine because it is an unblockable attack, auto attack on the other hand should have damage matching a rangers lb max range auto at the very least , if it is gonna have punishingly slow projectiles make them have a proper payback and punish reckless enemies, heck i almost deleted my engineer when i boosted a revenant to 80 and started demolishing zergs in wvw with hammer skills hitting for 4k autos and 8-12k 2-3 and 5 skills wich offer ranged non projectile damage too

Yeah, I still agree it's not fine. Look at your average abilities vs. Orbital Strike

Jump Shot landing damage: 970 (2.3)Close range Blunderbus: 742 (1.76)Holo Leap: 704 (1.8)Corona Burst: 469 (1.2)Photon Forge auto attacks: 391 (1.0), 391 (1.0), (626 (1.6) x2)Orbital Strike: 354 (1.33)

So if you get Orbital Strike to crit 7k, your Jump Shot would crit for 12,463 on the Landing only. So.. I'm aware Orbital Strike is a larger radius and unblockable but how do you justify Elite skill vs. standard skills being such a power difference?

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Upon further thinking yeah even 7k damage is a joke for a 2s cast time 40s cd
Specially compared to stuff like ranger lb 5 and ele meteor shower,

But heres where the problem lies in my opinion, the orbital command trait, it has a 15s cd so we cant ask for a damage buff because the trait uses the base orbital strike to damage instead of being an individual attack, on that note why not have base orbital strike have its cd lowered to 20s instead of buffing its damage?

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Change the trait imo its horrible even the old one before it had more purpose making it strike twice and extending the mortar skill duration's . Explosions traitline should be about damage getting a free orbital strike every 15 secs on a 50% target is pretty horrible with how slow it is. It needs to either improve orbitals actual damage by a lot or give it some sort of special function. The most you get out of orbital strike is hitting a pve mob with it or using it as a blast finisher no ones going to stand in this thing unless they want to die or are CC'ed into oblivion without any sort of cc break or cleanse.

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Its such a bothersome skill because it should go one of two ways , instant burst or area denial, i was thinkin of makin it an aoe pulse beam with an expanding radius like reaper gs 4 giving it massive damage and increasing its cd considerably, but a big buff to its current implementation would make it viable for pvp, i'm enjoying your discussions it makes me start takin into account pvp and balance it with wvw ideas

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Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

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@miriforst.1290 said:Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

Entirely wasted potential..

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@miriforst.1290 said:Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

Entirely wasted potential..

If anything it feels like mortar kit was made as an excuse to nerf grenade kit, the promised mortar kit sounded awesome vs what we got, with longer lasting fields and explosives that applied aoe finishers when they landed that one functionality would ve made mortar kit an amazing control weapon even if it had 1/4 the damage it has now.

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@Rezzet.3614 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@miriforst.1290 said:Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

Entirely wasted potential..

If anything it feels like mortar kit was made as an excuse to nerf grenade kit, the promised mortar kit sounded awesome vs what we got, with longer lasting fields and explosives that applied aoe finishers when they landed that one functionality would ve made mortar kit an amazing control weapon even if it had 1/4 the damage it has now.

You're referring to the old Mortar GM trait, which was much better, yeah?

Even then it still wasn't good enough to be a self reliant weapon, the Cleave was still only half of your close range potential. I doubt getting the old trait back would be a good trade if you hypothetically had 1/4th the damage.

I wouldn't classify mortar as a control kit, though.

For me, Mortar is undertuned if you can't contribute to a teamfight or stop a revive by raining infinite Mortar Shells on top of a key location. Pure combo field utility is not enough, an elite skill should increase your fighting power in situations where you're able to hit every mortar shell.

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@Chaith.8256 said:

@Rezzet.3614 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@miriforst.1290 said:Mortar kit suffers from a lack of "purity of purpose". They took away long range grenade kit and justified it with mortar kit having 1500 range and thus filling that purpose. But its skills are mostly designed as long range deployable combo fields (with the exception of the blind on flash i suppose) with low damage for both power and conditions.

And 9 times out of ten if i need a combo field i want them at my feet to stack multiple finishers so the kit might as well be a supportive bomb kit in those situations.

Sure it gives us access to poison and ice field but we had poison on the old grenades already and the same grenade kit also brought chill.

If it could be made into a clunky nuke weapon sort of like a projectile based fire ele light we might at least utilize it in a wvw backline.

The saving grace of orbital strike used to be the double damage and finisher thanks to siege rounds (if you ignore sacrificing a grandmaster trait for it), but with that gone the skill itself feels like one of those pve 1 skill bundles lying around.

Don't get me wrong mortar is probably perfectly viable and balanced. I just think its a waste of space. And a missed opportunity for something fun.

I remember the old days of combining a mortar engineer and a leg specialist warrior to perma immobilize people in wvw chokes. At least it was fun back then with concussion barrage and all. Impractical but sometimes awesome when you knocked a quarter of a squad off a cliff.

Yep, use Mortar #2-5 as a kind of bomb kit while you play a node-fighter build. That's the actual purity of purpose. It never had any relation to replacing Grenades or utilizing 1500 range. It may as well have 300 range for all this kit is good for.

Entirely wasted potential..

If anything it feels like mortar kit was made as an excuse to nerf grenade kit, the promised mortar kit sounded awesome vs what we got, with longer lasting fields and explosives that applied aoe finishers when they landed that one functionality would ve made mortar kit an amazing control weapon even if it had 1/4 the damage it has now.

You're referring to the old Mortar GM trait, which was much better, yeah?

Even then it still wasn't good enough to be a self reliant weapon, the Cleave was still only half of your close range potential. I doubt getting the old trait back would be a good trade if you hypothetically had 1/4th the damage.

I wouldn't classify mortar as a control kit, though.

For me, Mortar is undertuned if you can't contribute to a teamfight or stop a revive by raining infinite Mortar Shells on top of a key location. Pure combo field utility is not enough, an elite skill should increase your fighting power in situations where you're able to hit every mortar shell.

Thats where the non implemented dev mentioned idea would ve shined by applying aoe field effects continually it might not have offered damage but autoing chills and cleanses poisons would ve been big in team fights

But yeah i dont think any engineer disagrees with me saying mortar auto needs its damage up to ranger lb max range or higher and orbitalbstrike having its base damage and scaling doubled

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Gotta say i would love to see the original post ideas make it into core engi, at least the weapon ones specially the skilled marksman , also med kit changes, the only suggestion im not agreeing with is juggernaut affecting pistol and rifle it would make engi broken in some 1v1s unless i misunderstood its functionality

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@Rezzet.3614 said:the only suggestion im not agreeing with is juggernaut affecting pistol and rifle it would make engi broken in some 1v1s unless i misunderstood its functionality

It works like this,

  • After entering combat, if you're in Pistol/Rifle/Flamethrower you get a tick of stability/might on the 5th second.
  • If at any point you switch out of those affected weapons/kits, upon entering it again you have to start counting to 5 again before getting boons.

The 5 second dead zone would prevent builds that rely on frequent usage of Elixir S, Photon Forge, Grenade Kit, etc, from gaining significant stability uptime. Any interruption of having a Rifle/Pistol or Flamethrower equipped.

Would it be possible to make some strong builds that camp Rifle, Rifle/FT, or Pistol/FT? Hopefully. Pretend like all the changes to core Engi I suggested went through:

For example,

But maybe there could be another Holosmith variant that could be an option. With Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit you actually spend more time in Rifle than the Vent Exhaust variant. If Exceed skills got the boosts they need too, it'd open up some more options. I doubt it'd be as good as Explosives' dodge roll nukes or be as survivable as Tools' Rocket Boots, but extra stability would be interesting.

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@Rezzet.3614 said:Agreed a little stability would go a long way for engineer , core engi seems to lack proper stability , and boon strip we need the acidic elixirs trait back or somethin. Dint throw mine use to remove 3 boons in the past? It seems a detail not mentioned in wiki

Throw mine always removed 1 as my memory serves. My suggestion is to make it remove stab to always be a guaranteed disrupt. Mine Field I suggested to become strong AoE boon removal if multiple clustered enemies move inside it.

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@Rezzet.3614 said:Oh yes, i personally loved minefield it beats what we got currently infinetly, and yeah throw mine removing stab is perfect i forgot its an amazing gadget after the trait was overhauled

Yeah it's not bad right now. Really it's mine field that is a dead utility, it's just incredibly awkward and often not worth a 1s cast

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