[Suggestions] Remove traits and balance only skills and gear stats.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

Why you might ask?Well currently traits affect multiple skills so balancing is slow and some trait lines are a must. And if the trait lines are dropped now new specializations will require only skills and mechanic, instead of new traits. So they can be implemented faster.

And balancing skill vs skill might be way faster and easier. At the very least changing one skill won't change 4-5 like some traits.

Bonus point: Removing the traits will remove all passive actions they do, bringing the game close to more active combat. (So no more random boons triggering just because I'm at 75% health).

Discuss...

[Erasculio.2914]

Consider two things:

• Balance would be a lot easier if each profession had access to only two utility skills and a single weapon. Would that game be fun, though?

• The original Guild Wars had around 1.500 skills

ArenaNet has to weight giving players options, and making something they can balance. Remove too many options, and then the game lacks customization and replayability. Give too many options, and the game becomes a massive mess.

Guild Wars 2 has already cut a lot. It has far less skills than the original Guild Wars, it has far less skill types, and it has far less unique effects (almost all skills are very similar - do damage, apply a boon and/or apply a condition, among a very small list of possible conditions and boons). The old trait system GW2 had used to give us a lot more options than the current system, too.

Eventually, maybe we will simply have to admit that ArenaNet cannot properly balance the game without removing most of our options, and leave the game imbalanced.

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@Erasculio.2914 said:Consider two things:

• Balance would be a lot easier if each profession had access to only two utility skills and a single weapon. Would that game be fun, though?

• The original Guild Wars had around 1.500 skills

ArenaNet has to weight giving players options, and making something they can balance. Remove too many options, and then the game lacks customization and replayability. Give too many options, and the game becomes a massive mess.

Guild Wars 2 has already cut a lot. It has far less skills than the original Guild Wars, it has far less skill types, and it has far less unique effects (almost all skills are very similar - do damage, apply a boon and/or apply a condition, among a very small list of possible conditions and boons). The old trait system GW2 had used to give us a lot more options than the current system, too.

Eventually, maybe we will simply have to admit that ArenaNet cannot properly balance the game without removing most of our options, and leave the game imbalanced.

Yeah. And if the traits are removed, then maybe more skills can be added to improve build diversity.

[Shirlias.8104]

Unfortunately this is not gw1.

Players do want rpg stuff so they do not want balance. They could use templates with no customization in spvp though, but wvw and pve should remain as they currently are.

[Edelweiss.4261]

Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

[Obtena.7952]

Maybe in GW3 ... but not here.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Erasculio.2914 said:Guild Wars 2 has already cut a lot. It has far less skills than the original Guild Wars, it has far less skill types, and it has far less unique effects (almost all skills are very similar - do damage, apply a boon and/or apply a condition, among a very small list of possible conditions and boons). The old trait system GW2 had used to give us a lot more options than the current system, too.

When was the last time you counted the skills in Guild Wars 2? After Path of Fire Guild Wars 2 has slightly more skills than Guild Wars 1, and this without counting the loads of pet skills. This myth that Guild Wars 2 has less skills than Guild Wars 1 is just that, a myth. And with every expansion the number of skills will increase thanks to elite specs. The traits in GW2 also change how skills work and add new effects unlike traits in GW1 that only increased numbers.GW2 has far more complexity than GW1 ever did.

If I had to choose between gear, traits and skills I'd rather remove gear to be honest.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@Edelweiss.4261 said:Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

Very true. "Perfect balance" in a game is actually a bad thing. I'm terrible at explaining this kind of thing, so I'll let these guys do it instead:

Now in terms of balancing for GW2, it's important that you can separate PvP and PvE for balancing. PvP balancing can more or less sort itself out as long as every class and build has some form of weakness that other classes and builds can exploit. This will allow the meta to keep shifting as players figure out ways to counter whatever the most popular build is, using the tools they have available to them. Balancing for PvE is a lot harder because it requires the implementation of PvE content that requires certain aspects that force players to change their builds based on the encounter. There are mechanics like this already, but the problem we face right now is that certain classes can provide literally everything needed for all situations. It doesn't matter how many different kinds of bosses or mechanics you create if all of them can be beaten by the exact same team set up, which is where the stale meta comes from. Why take a Guardian tank over a Chrono tank when the Chrono provides more survivability and offensive boons in literally every situation?

If you want balance and options you have to make certain classes and builds weaker in some situations, otherwise people will just run the exact same set up for every encounter.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Edelweiss.4261 said:Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

Very true. "Perfect balance" in a game is actually a bad thing. I'm terrible at explaining this kind of thing, so I'll let these guys do it instead:

That's for PVP games mostly. There is no way to have cycling balance in PVE

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Edelweiss.4261 said:Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

Very true. "Perfect balance" in a game is actually a bad thing. I'm terrible at explaining this kind of thing, so I'll let these guys do it instead:

That's for PVP games mostly. There is no way to have cycling balance in PVE

Yes, I realised that and was just amending my last post to explain how to balance PvE (see above).

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Edelweiss.4261 said:Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

Very true. "Perfect balance" in a game is actually a bad thing. I'm terrible at explaining this kind of thing, so I'll let these guys do it instead:

This video explains everything...And at the end brings you to the main problem of GW2 and why getting rid of traits would hurt balance more than help.The best way to balance the game is offer more choice, and more counters, and traits help with that. The problem with GW2 is that 9 professions, and 27 specializations (core builds+2 elite specs) aren't really enough, especially because the game repeats the same play-styles a lot. There's too much symmetry for the imbalance to work, and too much imbalance for symmetry to work.

Because Arena net try to funnel players into the latest thing, core builds are seriously crippled vs elite builds because power creep. And yet sometimes using a core build allows you to get enough traits in to counter a specific elite spec, but because the numbers are seriously lacking, you can't really do that. HoT specs are more useful, but still, in many fields the new elites dominate. HoT are only really good for the extra tanky builds with chrono, tempest and druid shedding damage like crazy (a role that is now being taken over by some spellbreaker builds).And while there's specific identifiable strengths in builds, there's no identifiable counters for a lot of them.

Lets analyse the problem with scourge:Scourge is overbearing because it can apply a crap ton of condis onto the enemy, all while doing spellbreaker's thing of denying boons. What would be the best counter? Yeah, another necro build, or marginally a Malix Revenant. So teams end up with two necros because the best counter for a necro is another necro, and playing necro, the duel vs other necro ends up with whoever uses Plague signet first, or has it on CD loses. (I used the word necro a lot...)

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Edelweiss.4261 said:Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

Very true. "Perfect balance" in a game is actually a bad thing. I'm terrible at explaining this kind of thing, so I'll let these guys do it instead:

This video explains everything...And at the end brings you to the main problem of GW2 and why getting rid of traits would hurt balance more than help.The best way to balance the game is offer more choice, and more counters, and traits help with that. The problem with GW2 is that 9 professions, and 27 specializations (core builds+2 elite specs) aren't really enough, especially because the game repeats the same play-styles a lot. There's too much symmetry for the imbalance to work, and too much imbalance for symmetry to work.

Because Arena net try to funnel players into the latest thing, core builds are seriously crippled vs elite builds because power creep. And yet sometimes using a core build allows you to get enough traits in to counter a specific elite spec, but because the numbers are seriously lacking, you can't really do that. HoT specs are more useful, but still, in many fields the new elites dominate. HoT are only really good for the extra tanky builds with chrono, tempest and druid shedding damage like crazy (a role that is now being taken over by some spellbreaker builds).And while there's specific identifiable strengths in builds, there's no identifiable counters for a lot of them.

Lets analyse the problem with scourge:Scourge is overbearing because it can apply a crap ton of condis onto the enemy, all while doing spellbreaker's thing of denying boons. What would be the best counter? Yeah, another necro build, or marginally a Malix Revenant. So teams end up with two necros because the best counter for a necro is another necro, and playing necro, the duel vs other necro ends up with whoever uses Plague signet first, or has it on CD loses. (I used the word necro a lot...)

So we need more traits? Well in that case they should start allowing equipping more than 1 elite specialization in future expansions.

[Wandering Mist.2973]

@YoukiNeko.6047 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@Edelweiss.4261 said:Over the years of playing/watching different games, I've come to believe that true balance is change. Change keeps things fresh and players on their toes.

Very true. "Perfect balance" in a game is actually a bad thing. I'm terrible at explaining this kind of thing, so I'll let these guys do it instead:

This video explains everything...And at the end brings you to the main problem of GW2 and why getting rid of traits would hurt balance more than help.The best way to balance the game is offer more choice, and more counters, and traits help with that. The problem with GW2 is that 9 professions, and 27 specializations (core builds+2 elite specs) aren't really enough, especially because the game repeats the same play-styles a lot. There's too much symmetry for the imbalance to work, and too much imbalance for symmetry to work.

Because Arena net try to funnel players into the latest thing, core builds are seriously crippled vs elite builds because power creep. And yet sometimes using a core build allows you to get enough traits in to counter a specific elite spec, but because the numbers are seriously lacking, you can't really do that. HoT specs are more useful, but still, in many fields the new elites dominate. HoT are only really good for the extra tanky builds with chrono, tempest and druid shedding damage like crazy (a role that is now being taken over by some spellbreaker builds).And while there's specific identifiable strengths in builds, there's no identifiable counters for a lot of them.

Lets analyse the problem with scourge:Scourge is overbearing because it can apply a crap ton of condis onto the enemy, all while doing spellbreaker's thing of denying boons. What would be the best counter? Yeah, another necro build, or marginally a Malix Revenant. So teams end up with two necros because the best counter for a necro is another necro, and playing necro, the duel vs other necro ends up with whoever uses Plague signet first, or has it on CD loses. (I used the word necro a lot...)

So we need more traits? Well in that case they should start allowing equipping more than 1 elite specialization in future expansions.

We don't necessarily need more traits, but the traits we have need to be rebalanced in such a way that the elite specs aren't just upgraded versions of the core traits. For example, let's look at the Mirage Cloak mechanic, which replaces dodge rolling in the Mirage Mesmer spec. No matter how you look at it, Mirage Cloak is objectively better than normal dodge rolling because it provides invulnerability frames without an animation to slow it down, can be used while casting abilities and can be traited to remove CC and conditions and provide superspeed. The Mirage Cloak is a direct upgrade of the normal dodge roll in every scenario with no weaknesses at all. If you wanted to find balance in this situation, you would need to change it so that using Mirage Cloak roots your character in place for the duration, which would make it weak against aoe abilities. You would then have to choose whether to take the Mirage Cloak and be able to avoid damage while casting spells, or take the normal dodge roll which would interrupt your current action but move you out of range of aoe abilities. Suddenly you have options and would have to decide what to take based on the situation.

[Erasculio.2914]

@maddoctor.2738 said:GW2 has far more complexity than GW1 ever did.

Eeeeh, not really. When we consider how there were far more skill combinations in the original Guild Wars (since skill slots were not fixed), we see that there were a lot more options back there.

Then add how there were far more unique effects - all GW2 skills revolve around a very limited number of effects (doing direct damage, conditions, boons), but in the original Guild Wars, many (if not most) skills had unique effects. It's as if all hexes in GW were changed to only apply conditions.

Multiply this by how we could use two professions at the same time, and the complexity sky rockets above GW2.

Then consider how combat in the entire max level experience was based on being in a party, so you were always focused on multiple characters filling different roles, and always with at least 8 party members (unlike the maximum of 5 people for GW2's dungeons and fractals)... And yeah, the original Guild Wars was far more complex than what we have today.

@maddoctor.2738 said:If I had to choose between gear, traits and skills I'd rather remove gear to be honest.

With this, I agree completely.

[OriOri.8724]

@Erasculio.2914 said:Consider two things:

• Balance would be a lot easier if each profession had access to only two utility skills and a single weapon. Would that game be fun, though?

• The original Guild Wars had around 1.500 skills

ArenaNet has to weight giving players options, and making something they can balance. Remove too many options, and then the game lacks customization and replayability. Give too many options, and the game becomes a massive mess.

Guild Wars 2 has already cut a lot. It has far less skills than the original Guild Wars, it has far less skill types, and it has far less unique effects (almost all skills are very similar - do damage, apply a boon and/or apply a condition, among a very small list of possible conditions and boons). The old trait system GW2 had used to give us a lot more options than the current system, too.

Eventually, maybe we will simply have to admit that ArenaNet cannot properly balance the game without removing most of our options, and leave the game imbalanced.

GW1 also didn't have traits, no? Traits can completely change how a skill functions, which makes it exponentially more difficult to balance said skill, because you not have it functioninig in severely different ways. In GW1 skills would get stronger as you leveled up some attributes, but they functioned the same.

[Ohoni.6057]

No, traits are fun.

[Ardid.7203]

Frankly, I'd rather have gear stats removed... I would prefer base traits tied directly to the character, only defense on armor, only offense on weapons.But with the current state of the game that would also be a chaos...

[maddoctor.2738]

@Erasculio.2914 said:Then consider how combat in the entire max level experience was based on being in a party, so you were always focused on multiple characters filling different roles, and always with at least 8 party members (unlike the maximum of 5 people for GW2's dungeons and fractals)... And yeah, the original Guild Wars was far more complex than what we have today.

In GW1 you had a total of 8 skills to worry about (and in rare cases max 3 weapon swaps) and nothing else, in GW2 you have way more skills to worry about at any time, your 10 in your skill bar, any profession mechanic skills, weapon swapping to another 5 skills, chain skills, ground targeting skills, transform skills, summon skills, and the list goes on. The simple 8 skills in GW1 pale in comparison. In addition, you have to deal with movement and dodging, something rarely useful in GW1. But the easiest way to compare the two is using Artificial Intelligence. In GW1 a bot can play successfully, in many cases better than a human, while in GW2 that's impossible.But I guess it depends on how anyone defines complexity, in any case, GW2 now has more skills (in number) than GW1, not counting pet skills and the traits that change how skills work or add new ability to dodging and so on.

And one more time: remove stats from gear instead of removing traits! If such a massive change is ever needed.

[DeanBB.4268]

If the traits were removed, the game would not be as fun, so why bother?

[YoukiNeko.6047]

@DeanBB.4268 said:If the traits were removed, the game would not be as fun, so why bother?

How did you manage figure that? I'm just curios.

[rdigeri.7935]

(So this is ages old, but i remembered seeing it and decided to comment anyway)

This is all very unrealistic, nevertheless personally i'd be curious what happened if both traits and gear stats were removed. If instead of elite specs, we would get skill packs and new weapons, as if it was some collectible card game or something.The active nature and variety of skills is what i enjoy the most, the rest is just a bother.

Imagine if each skill would require a feat to get in pve. What an adventure.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

In GW1 you had [...] (and in rare cases max 3 weapon swaps)I'm curious what you mean by this?There's 4 preset weapon sets (F1-F4, and clickable icons), and full freedom of swapping weapons from inventory - no limitation in combat, just during animations.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I don't want to see traits removed, but I also don't like that Dueling for mesmers is a must traitline for every single build pve, wvw, or pvp.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"rdigeri.7935" said:Imagine if each skill would require a feat to get in pve. What an adventure.

Back in the early beta it used to be like this to get traits. They scrapped in on release. They added it back when they added "quests" to unlock specific grandmaster traits. Nobody liked it and the whole concept went to the trash can. So yeah I can imagine if skills require -something- to get in PVE: it would be a pointless and absolutely atrocious experience.

Nice necro post.

[JTGuevara.9018]

The old trait system from release to 2014 was much better, I think. Here's why.

The old system allowed you to put up points into any line you wanted. It was reminiscent of the old WoW system and gw1. The new system, however, you have to take a full spec line and ditch the rest. It took away build diversity, in a way. On top of that, that's where the powercreep really started. The old trait system allowed for only two full lines plus the leftover points which you can spec wherever you wanted. The current system, however, gives you three full trait lines. That's giving away 10 more points.