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Upcoming Wintersday Balance Update

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  • thoughts on condi cleanse priority? highest damaging tick gets cleansed first

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    To re-iterate and hopefully clarify something - this update is NOT an end-all resolution to power and condition builds, it is a step toward the goal of accentuating differences will lead to healthier options in several game modes. This is also a smaller scope update.

    We'll be listening to your feedback on these types of changes, but we ask that you keep discussion to the items we're focusing on here.

    So, seriously, how many months are mirage players going to have to wait after you completely destroy whatever was left of this spec? Ambush is a pathetic joke. Clones still don't deal power damage on AA. But now we can't burst with condi either? What are the strong points of this spec exactly?

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like the idea of conditions lasting longer but being less bursty.

    Frankly, I'd go even further, in your example the burning stack should be single, 16-20 seconds. Even more damage total, even longer, even less burst potential.

    Differentiates the game further between the "I bring the damage output" condi specs and the "I kill stuff" power specs.

  • Ayumi Spender.1082Ayumi Spender.1082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just wondering.
    So um... is my Scourge screwed in this?
    My head say no, but I'm a condi facemelting build and really liking it. I've always been a condi Necro as there's nothing good in power in Necro for me. (I don't play Reaper. Never played Reaper. Never liked Reaper).

  • Aury.1367Aury.1367 Member ✭✭✭

    Then condi users dont have the need for expertise stats anymore and go full dire build again. Is that what you want?

  • Please be careful with how you balance spvp, the competitive meta right now is not overwhelmingly condition or power based. Look at what rank 55 won with in the UGO ( holosmith , thief , mirage scourge ) thats two condi and two power classes. Nerfing condition in spvp will lead to a bunker meta. I don't expect pvp to be balanced around the top players anymore since the scene is tiny but do keep in mind that things like druid or firebrand will be exponentially harder to kill without condi in the meta
    Thnx for reading

  • @Rengaru.4730 said:
    Of course I don't know the full balance changes so I could be mistaken, but wouldn't the proposed chage to Mutilate Defenses destroy the synergy it already has with the other Devastation traits (namely Targeted Destruction and Focused Siphoning) especially in AoE situations?

    ofc it would, now you probably will have to run sigil of fallibility in spvp for reliable vuln upkeep.

  • Miles Smiles.8951Miles Smiles.8951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
      - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
      - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

    So now you can facetank more? I think if you eat a condi bomb or two then it's fair you go take a seat for a while. Especially if it's a burn guard with mentioned Purging Flames. I really think it's an incorrect approach to balancing condi specs, which are currently represented by Scourge and Mirage, not burn guardians.

    You say you wanna "create more opportunities for counterplay" so give it some counterplay (e.g. rework insta casted corrupts with no tells) instead of creating an opportunity to tank more.

  • I like the sound of this.

  • kiranslee.4829kiranslee.4829 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    How about that change to 100b on war, maybe transform it into something , useful ? Would be nice to check war GS and make it not be just additional dodge, just sayin. Not like we ask for this for years now :).

    PS.
    I really hope tthis becomes awesome condi nerf , but u have to sell your hot/pof stats , right :) ?

  • Is this PvE/WvWvW only?

  • Seffen.2875Seffen.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @ Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    This small update has primary two foci:

    • Pushing damaging burst condition toward ramping, sustained damage. This should create more opportunities for counterplay, but also feel satisfying to keep conditions rolling once you’ve ramped them up.
      - i.e. We’re tuning some skills that apply damaging conditions so that they apply less stacks up front, but last for longer. In total duration they’re almost the same before and after.
      - e.g. Purging Flames: Burning has been adjusted from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 2 stacks for 8 seconds.

    See you in the lands!

    Till then, when i acknowledge my GF i will think of you.

    If this is actually working, i will proceed after this is online.

    Kudos for telling us earlier this time. Also is Purging Flames a really weird example.

  • "Re-vamping several passive vulnerability traits to offer more distinct opportunities or create synergy with other traits"

    While the idea is good, especially the example of your skillchange is bad. First, changing skill to activate when engaging combat isn´t good. You already did that mistake with warriors "Brave Stride", making it a skill so utterly useless its unbelievable. In competitive enviroment I have NEVER seen anyone using it. Its just bad. It could maybe be usefull for running around in open pve. But even there its not great because mobs often either have non CC in the case of trashmobs, or a kitten-ton of it.
    Making it to refresh somehow in a fight is better, but still. you either mostly don´t use the elite (mallyx) or in special cases (shiro) where you are sure it will land.
    And why reducing the amount of vulnerabilty und rev when there is much more important stuff to consider (btw the vulnerability is important for the 7% bonus. in a raid this is ez to mantain, in a 1vs1 in pvp it just gets more difficult. The access to it is limited to sword AA in most cases). For example how easy it is to mantain perma weakness as a nec when investing into one trait alone? Which gets us to the general problem. It is now to easy for condi speccs to access ALL conditions for extreme uptimes. Its far more difficult to mantein poison stacks on an enemy as a power thief for example, but ridiculously easy for condi thief. Its better in pvp because the condition duration for all condis is harder to achieve (thanks pvp team). But in a world where trailblazer exists, its far to easy. Heavy access to conditions like immob, chill, cripple, weakness etc were meant to make condition builds more able to kite enemies while they are letting conditions finish him off. There were even plays involved that you needed them as cover-conditions so the important ones are more difficult to cleanse. But now its to easy to achieve that. You don´t have to think what you do with your conditions, you just throw them in the face as much as possible.

    Tbh, I think it would be necessary to nerf all the 4stats in the amount of numbers to bring them more in line with 3 stats variant. Many wouldn´t like that, but especially minstrel, trailblazer (dire is weaker but still strong), viper (far better than sinister, making it obsolete) and even stuff like marauder (better damage/sustain ratio than berserker) are simply better than the 3stats variant. Make it a harder choice what stats to take.

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Accelerator.3598 said:
    Please for the love of god, split this "Balance Update" into PvE and PvP. I know the condi burst is just ridiculous in PvP but don't balance PvE around PvP again. For the part that's targeted at PvE content, the main issue here is not condi builds being overwhelmingly strong, but power builds being underwhelmingly weak and this should be where you start to balance, by adding power to weak builds and not by nerfing the in comparison stronger builds to the ground.

    But they specifically address this. Overall condi output stays the same, it just ramps up less quickly:

    • In PvP and WvW, this is an intended nerf to condi output.
    • In open-world and low-FotM PvE, this makes a difference but a trivial one as things would die just from the power damage component of a condi spec, easily.
    • For Raids and high-end FotM, the difference will be marginal as things live long enough.

    That's kinda it. There's no problem in PvE from this, other than maybe wanting the odd power spec char if all you do with it is grind open world zones.

    @Accelerator.3598 said:
    the main issue here is not condi builds being overwhelmingly strong, but power builds being underwhelmingly weak

    Exactly not. Power builds are plenty strong. Overall, damage is far far far faaaaaar too high. So nerfing is the right way to go, things live horribly briefly and PvE is far too easy as a result, with nothing truly threatening a player. Compare pre-HoT damage output which was much healthier for the PvE game.

  • Rodzynald.5897Rodzynald.5897 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @SloRules.3560 said:
    I have to agree with people that said that the amount of different conditions that are being puked out has to adressed too. Some classes just have to many (ehm necro).

    Also please take a look at hammer rev vs staff ele. Hammer rev just shouldn't be able to do as much damage as ele, when they are both full zerk, because it's a whole lot more survivable.

    Warrior elite and enchantment collapse need to be adressed a bit, they are just to powerfull together. I like warrior rips a whole lot more than necro corrupts, but not if they are all packed in 1 skill.

    Firebrand support is too much, no other class can compete to it, unless you want to rely on special mechanics, like jalis elite. Even ele auras aren't enough to warant using it over guardian.(guardian = stab, resistane, healing, condi cleanse, ... you just can't have all of that together)

    First of all, Firebrand needs a decent team that knows how to fight so it is worth for them to keep the team alive. Second, Firebrand is strong because it has to be strong due to how many condis and power damage can be done in a short duration of time. Thirdly, Firebrand has no mobility or gimmicky shenanigans to keep it alive, it's all about how you react and what skills you use, so if you burst it well, it will go down and you are sure it won't do something weird that will keep it alive like random invulnerability or something. They won't go invisible or run away like a druid, or kite around like good ol' ele.

    Casual friendly and quality pvp - these two do not work well together.

  • roamzero.9486roamzero.9486 Member ✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    From a pvp standpoint I hope they take into consideration condi removal as well. It wouldn't be very satisfying to ramp up your conditions only to have them cleared. In fact, apart from playing Scourge and Mirage, bursting your conditions in between your opponent's removals is the only way to be effective. That said though the main classes that can take condi removal to a ridiculous degree are Inspiration Mirages/Guardians/Druids and maybe Eles.

  • Cynz.9437Cynz.9437 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @roamzero.9486 said:
    From a pvp standpoint I hope they take into consideration condi removal as well. It wouldn't be very satisfying to ramp up your conditions only to have them cleared. In fact, apart from playing Scourge and Mirage, bursting your conditions in between your opponent's removals is the only way to be effective. That said though the main classes that can take condi removal to a ridiculous degree are Inspiration Mirages/Guardians/Druids and maybe Eles.

    You do know that nearly everyone is running what some call "condi cleanse" builds because of amount of condis spam in pvp/wvw. This is a symptom, not cause really.
    For example right now, on core SA thief i run signet of agility because of condi cleanse when i would rather run inf. signet but i can't afford it due to condi spam. Same applies to runes/sigils we pick. Would there be less condi spam, some would probably run other options instead of only option atm: bring as much condi cleanse as possible.

    Atm, condis are bigger threat (to me at least) than anything else in game.

    GW is P2Win. We are always lied to.

  • @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Umbramare.9156 said:
    How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

    Way to over-react. It completely depends on what they do to certain skills given the example above is actually a net gain in damage.

    Actually it is a real problem for PvE where bursts have been bad before for condi and become even worse now. It's sad that my already offmeta-pve-build gets nerfed even more without any content specific reason.

    Viable != Optimal

    Not viable = You only get carried, 10 players with a build as "viable as yours" can't properly do it.

  • @apharma.3741 said:

    @Umbramare.9156 said:
    How to kill condi classes in PvE 101.

    4 burns for 5s will do the same damage as 2 burns for 10s and once fully into a rotation the dps numbers shouldn’t change too much. The real question is just how long of a ramp up time we are talking about for PvE but considering most of the highest dps builds are currently condition builds which have less stringent requirements for hitting the numbers (no scholar) then there needs to be a shift to make power worth running.

    ???
    If you'd play with any halfdecent people you'd know that power gets favored if your groupdps isnt complete garbage.

    Never forget, never forgive #MountGate

  • Titan.3472Titan.3472 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    We REALLY need like REALLY for REAL need and gave multiple FEEDBACKS over YEARS (FoT = Feedbacks over Times xD) that we NEEEEEEEED a stat to reduce condition damages intensity for REAL. (like toughness for power)
    In every games I played in the past every UNRESISTED damages types were abused (GW2 is no different regarding unresisted condition damages type) and always ended being fix removing their unresisted status, still Anet refuses to actknowledge that.
    90% of the balance issues would be fix IF we are given a stat reducing conditions intensisty (like vitality in my opinion is the best choice) 1% conditions damage reduction per X vitality.

  • I hope you’re also considering the passive vuln application of Storm Spirit.

    Because people will literally just bring that when you remove passive vuln application from traits etc.

  • @hitman.6804 said:
    Just a Question, Are you guys doing anything to Deadeye?

    I dont think there is much too do with deadeye

  • What I see, Anet announces a balance patch targeting Condi to bring it "in line" with "power" dps. What I read between the lines, Anet nerfing something good across the board because 1 group of players is mad because a play style can beat them. It was exactly the same when HoT dropped. They will adjust the skills as they see necessary. Stop whining about it guys, I for one am thankful to Anet for even telling us this is coming. I have been staying away from most of the new builds because I knew the Condi Nerf was coming shortly after the PoF release. PvP and WvW people have been whining since HoT about Condi seems to me they will finally get their way. I wish others would just see the viability of multiple build style's instead of maligning the one they choose not to take.

  • If you do this you have to remove resistance and also tweak a lot of condi cleanse. Especially firebrand and a lot other skills need to remove alot less condis. We're punished enough to build up damage. Direct damage is so cheap and can't be prevented while condi can just get cleansed away too easily.

  • Bakeneko.5826Bakeneko.5826 Member ✭✭✭

    @SolitaryPillarist.5740 said:
    What I see, Anet announces a balance patch targeting Condi to bring it "in line" with "power" dps. What I read between the lines, Anet nerfing something good across the board because 1 group of players is mad because a play style can beat them. It was exactly the same when HoT dropped. They will adjust the skills as they see necessary. Stop whining about it guys, I for one am thankful to Anet for even telling us this is coming. I have been staying away from most of the new builds because I knew the Condi Nerf was coming shortly after the PoF release. PvP and WvW people have been whining since HoT about Condi seems to me they will finally get their way. I wish others would just see the viability of multiple build style's instead of maligning the one they choose not to take.

    Stop whining about condi bursting just as hard as pure power zerker? Are you serious? You are saying DoT that can pulse for more from the get-go than pure zerker is ok, when prue power build can just do one burst and be it, where condi would keep pulsing?
    WvW were not "whining". Have you even been in WvW? ZvZ fights starts by getting every possible condi in 2 seconds ant 4-20 stacks. If player has frontline builder he is ok, if he is flanker/assassins/backliner he gets insta destroyed. No amount of dodges will help. Condi is OP in PvE, WvW and PvP. It needs nerfing badly.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    - e.g. Mutilate Defenses: This trait has been reworked and renamed to "Expose Defenses". This trait now causes your first attack when entering combat to inflict 5 stacks of vulnerability for 5 seconds. This ability refreshes whenever you use an elite skill.

    I cannot stress enough how borderline-useless this would make Mutilate Defenses.

  • LUST.7241LUST.7241 Member ✭✭✭

    I still think a lot of dealing-with-Condi problems in PvP/WvW can be solved just by updating Condi Cleanses to 2017/2018. They all are based on 2012 levels where there was very little condi application.

    All my alts are just storage for my Engi.

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Your problem isn't that condi is too strong in PvE, it's that you've failed to make any power specs outside guardian, ele, and engineer viable at all.

    Power ranger, power necro/reaper, power mesmer, power warrior, power thief all pathetically weak compared to dragonhunter, weaver, or holosmith.

    You've done nothing serious to bring all these classes up in terms of viable power builds. That's why most builds in the game are condi, because most classes don't even have the option to play a power build.

    Yeah. This is pretty accurate. It's also the fact that power classes not DH/ele don't have very strong ranged weapon options(read: really really really weak) for power based builds and really screws them over in open world and solo content when fighting something super annoying you can't melee or got hit by too much stuff and need time to wait for heal/cooldowns to come back up before you can go into melee again.

    You generally fulltime melee in organized group content but in open world not having a ranged weapon that does good DPS is REALLY annoying. All power classes not DH or elementalist greatly lack a good ranged power weapon.

  • Ragnarox.9601Ragnarox.9601 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    So we need to expect condi necro or scourge fart 5 bleed confusion burning torment poison for 1 min duration? bahaha
    And again guardian nerf for nothing. Condi guardian is not even good.
    This is going to be a big buff for condi mesmer....

  • So is this just going to me a new necro nerf, or is it a real attempt at balance,

    They said counterplay, so are we going to see a split, as counter play would be PvP/ WvW, I don't think a legendary boss ingame needs counter play other than there 1 shot mechanics,

    So now condi classes can build damage over time which I guess if the enemy doesn't have a condi cleanse works great, but if they do, I guess they can still hit you for 10-15k crit and take you out in a few hits..... who exactly is this counter play for, im guessing all the people who are QQing saying, stop condi scourge, remove scourge, etc etc etc

    Im sure there are key classes that might benefit from this "patch" but im guessing necro wont be one of them.

  • Etterwyn.5263Etterwyn.5263 Member ✭✭✭

    Ok I know you don't really take requests, but I'm gonna ask anyway could you please revisit Runes of the Reaper? 100 Toughness is completely meaningless. Could the secondary function be +10% and +15% Chill duration? That would at least be useful. Anyway back to our regularly scheduled programming...

  • Rym.1469Rym.1469 Member ✭✭✭

    Mind removing Sand Savant from Scourge as well?

    Yeah, I stream once in a blue moon.

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