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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Game of Bones.8975 said:People are asking for slowed down version for beginners to learn what builds and equipment to use (and to tie their shoes) and not die as easily to learn.

Usually when someone trains people they tell them what builds and equipment to use. Reading a guide also helps in getting the proper build and gear, I don't know how a slowed version could work to teach players their builds and equipment.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here.Simple answer? They aren't. They simply play less and less with each change Anet makes to the game.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.Forcing people into harder content never works, (unless you want to make them quit, of course).

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Ever since their first release they upped the challenge level, adding harder mobs, adding harder story instances and so on. They've been increasing the challenge level of the game for 5 years, so I wonder what are these players who don't want to "get good" still doing here.Simple answer? They aren't. They simply play less and less with each change Anet makes to the game.

Revenue stream never showed that. Weird.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Easiest way to train people: take away brain dead farms so they have to play the game to get anything.Forcing people into harder content never works, (unless you want to make them quit, of course).

Having only brain dead content has the same effect.

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@zinkz.7045 said:GW2 raids are already easy mode, I've played games where it took months on some raids for the first completion, not mere hours, and those were games with many more dedicated raid guilds than this casual game.

GW2 has no gear treadmill. To kill a mythic WoW boss on release you HAVE to do it under-equipped for the encounter which is the definition of artificial difficulty . This has been discussed to death in this topic and every single topic about raids, it's just not worthy the comparison to other MMOs. To make truly difficult raids in this game (like Dhuum's CM) means to push players to the limit of their actual capacity of performing flawless rotations for more than 10 minutes straight, because you can't crunch them down with higher numbers, which is what many other MMOs are all about, throwing more numbers at you. With that said, this line of thinking is not why Raids should remain as they are - If I thought this game was already perma-ez and I could play it with a blindfold, I wouldn't play as much as I do, so people who say this game is boring sure as kitten don't mean what they think they mean.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Game of Bones.8975 said:People are asking for slowed down version for beginners to learn what builds and equipment to use (and to tie their shoes) and not die as easily to learn.

Usually when someone trains people they tell them what builds and equipment to use. Reading a guide also helps in getting the proper build and gear, I don't know how a slowed version could work to teach players their builds and equipment.

It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

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@Wandering Mist.2973 said:It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

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@Wandering Mist.2973 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

You've never been to any Heart of Thorns map then...

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Wandering Mist.2973 said:It's all very well having someone tell you to copy and paste a build and follow a dps rotation, but you won't be able to fully utilize that build just by copying someone else. Players develop a greater understanding when they are given the time to work things out on their own. This deeper knowledge of the build and their class is going to help them a lot more than them just copying a rotation to the letter, as it will allow them to adapt to diffrrent situations on the fly.

Of course going into Raids with a build someone else told you isn't a very good idea. That's why we have the rest of the game to go train and learn how to use that build properly.

Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.

You've never been to any Heart of Thorns map then...

I went through the heart of thorns storyline on my mesmer with no problems at all. Not sure what the big deal is tbh.

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@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@zinkz.7045 said:GW2 raids are already easy mode, I've played games where it took months on some raids for the first completion, not mere hours, and those were games with many more dedicated raid guilds than this casual game.

GW2 has no gear treadmill. To kill a mythic WoW boss on release you HAVE to do it under-equipped for the encounter which is the definition of
artificial difficulty
. This has been discussed to death in this topic and every single topic about raids, it's just not worthy the comparison to other MMOs. To make truly difficult raids in this game (like Dhuum's CM) means to push players to the limit of their actual capacity of performing flawless rotations for more than 10 minutes straight, because you can't crunch them down with higher numbers,
which is what many other MMOs are all about, throwing more numbers at you
. With that said, this line of thinking is not why Raids should remain as they are - If I thought this game was already perma-ez and I could play it with a blindfold, I wouldn't play as much as I do, so people who say this game is boring sure as kitten don't mean what they think they mean.

I didn't suggest they make 'truly difficult raids' in this game, GW2 is aimed at casual players in most respects, so it only makes sense the raids are also largely aimed at that, I don't expect GW2 raids to take months to complete and have hardcore guilds tearing their hair out like has happened in certain games, it doesn't fit GW2's playerbase, but that doesn't alter that raids in this game with barely any hardcore guilds take mere hours before they are first completed, there is a reason for that, and it is not because they are difficult. ;)

As for he "artificial difficulty" nonsense, having to initially do raids in games underequipped is no more artificial than anything else about PvE, I hate to break it to you but artificial difficulty is basically what PvE is in MMORPGs, you play a game of simon says for no real reason, other than the fact AI is shit/non-existent, the mechanical requirements of playing these games is very low (again go see SC2, Streetfighter, CS, etc for games that require actual mechanical ability), etc.

So they basically add 'mechanics' to artificially provide a "skill" requirement, problem is that is basically a game of Simon Says and once people have learnt those mechanics the game play becomes trivial, which is why PvE players need a constant stream of 'shiny things' to get them to play what is substandard gameplay and is one of the reasons this genre is in decline.

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@Wandering Mist.2973 said:Yes except the rest of the game doesn't require the use of those builds or proper use of mechanics. When was the last time you had to break a defiance bar or use a blinding cloud outside of raids and t4 fractals? When do you ever even need to use any cc abilities at all? You don't.Oh, I had quite a defiance-heavy open world encounter just before I went into fractals. Serpent's Ire. But that's not the point. Defiance bars and that stuff have been around in enough open world content where people could learn it. Just why learn it if not breaking bars does not trigger an immediate punishment you notice? However, that results in another problem: at the current state of the game, people won't learn how to react to defiance bars. Introduce the punishment mentioned above and large open world events will likely become unplayable. Some defiance tutorials should probably have been added in the personal and living story long ago.

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GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

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@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

How is that an argument ? Wow pushes players to complete the raids because they are actually required to be completed. Hence why LFR with different tiers.

In GW2 you do whatever you want getting gear in whatever way you want (that suits you better of course). Because open world+festivals content is king while instanced content have been getting regular and meaningful additions and revamps for the last 2 years only.

I mean, nothing really forces people to do instanced content. (Reminds me I still haven't done fractal observatory by the way ^^).

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@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

Thing is, Anet doesn't want raiding to be part of its major content - even though ironically people really wish to play it somewhat (there's what 4 threads about ez mode raids?). The Raids team has outdone itself with every release and everything inside the wings from the art to the gameplay and to the rewards are a league above a lot of what we get in open world (Astral skins from new episode are kinda fun but White Mantle weapons? They are Black Lion material, acquirable without gemstore, and only a small example).

But no matter if the mode ended up being so good, that people hate how Anet (accidentally?) put some of their A-Team to develop niche content, it's still niche content, and I don't think we should make it central, specially with the quality of the Living World releases increasing more and more.

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@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

I think GW2 is well on it's way to being a cautionary tale of why it's a bad idea to add raids to a game later in it's life cycle.

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@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

As you said, it works well for games that have raids as main content. GW2 is not such a game. The main content ist LS and open world.

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@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

Which would actually mean that we do not need different modes here considering how raids are not part of the major content. They are nothing more than a small addition to the vast and rather casual friendly PvE content this game offers. There was, is and never will be a focus on raid content.Besides, the majority of raiders are active PvX players. Most spend the least amount of their playing hours actually raiding unless we are talking about the most hardcore who will do multiple clears over different accounts per week and take part in record runs. They are only a tiny group of an already small group of players. Everyone else in the raiding community can be seen in other PvE content, PvP or WvW far more frequently.

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To me, the main problem will allways be try to gather 10 people to do these kind of content...back in the day when dungeons were still a thing, sometimes you just wouldnt get a group to try for a not popular dungeon/path...and this was just a 5 people instance...also, I wanna actually play the game, see the story and explore the whole place, not just stack inside a boss and use the same rotation over and over again till the boss is dead...lol i saw people getting kicked from dungeons for just not skipping the cinematics , and this was stuff like AC...I imagine that raiders are 10 times worse then this...my own guild mates, who used to run dungeons even with underleved people to teach the paths, are allready used to kick pugs out of the group if the DPS is low...this is not about hard or easy, lol theres no hard content on GW2.In my opinion, a easy solution would be give a 5 people option or a solo mode, you would play with the NPCs(could be members of Dragon Watch)...wouldnt give rewards, would just be to explore and see the story behind...they did it with Arah story mode, cant see why they cant do the same here.

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@Lonami.2987 said:Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders.

Disagree.

First off, there's no problem with exclusive content. On a broader level, it's either exclusive or generic. The game is full of exclusive content, content targeted toward specific, players which make up for a small part of the player base. That's fine. Even more - that's the sensible thing to do. You can't make generic content exciting, so you can actually keep more players in the game with a variety of different exclusive content. Which the game does.

@Lonami.2987 said:> Lack of difficulty modes is hurting hardcore raiding

I like my raids hard, and I guess many raiders do as well. I absolutely despise some of the easier bosses, specially escort and trio, and I believe the challenge motes from W4 should have been the default gameplay option for those bosses.

Why does ArenaNet put in those easy bosses in, then? It's pretty clear, and you don't need to be a genius. They're there for the noobs.

Because there's no easy/normal/hard mode distinction, all those difficulty levels are shoved in inside the same single raid mode. Because, as the point above shows, raids are not profitable if only the 1% experiences them.

We'll keep getting things like escort as long as there's no difficulty modes. All of you arguing against difficulty modes because raids need to stay hard and only hard, you're shooting yourselves in the face, and I hope you enjoy easy bosses and dumb filler events, because we'll keep getting them. Not like the normal bosses are too hard, either. I think VG was 2-manned a few days ago? Looking good for raid difficulty, eh?

You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

This kind of undermines your next point about difficulty modes being healthy for the raids. I can agree on adding higher difficulties. Which we already get btw, in the form of CMs. Lower difficulty raids would be rather pointless in my opinion, as they will serve the same purpose as FotM. And if the rewards there remain - as they should - lower and weekly-gated, there will simply not be enough interested players to warrant the development time.

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@CedarDog.9723 said:Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?For the same reason why that recap didn't work out and people are still asking for LS1 to be introduced in repeatable form (even though given its nature it would end up as something completely different). Turns out infodumps are never as good as playing through content.

Though i do agree that the storymode that noone would have a reason to repeat is not exactly a good use of dev resources.

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