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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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The idea that there are more or just slightly less hardcore players than casual ones is simply bogus, even when you apply a generous definition of hardcore. Only at work you will find more professionals than amateurs, and even then you will have a significant minority of people that barely qualify for their jobs even if they already do them for decades.

Personally I hope that Anet someday comes away again from the idea that they have to be like any other MMO.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@CedarDog.9723 said:Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?For the same reason why that recap didn't work out and people are still asking for LS1 to be introduced in repeatable form (even though given its nature it would end up as something completely different). Turns out infodumps are never as good as playing through content.

Though i do agree that the storymode that noone would have a reason to repeat is not exactly a good use of dev resources.

I guess I do kind of wonder if having the challenge motes in place in a number of the bosses wouldn't make having a baby mote easier to do though. Like activate baby mote, boss health/cc bar is halved, empty loot table.

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No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard, yawn) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

Personally I feel raids should build up in difficulty, like they used to in the TBC days (same as heroic dungeons did then, or GW2 fractals).If you started out as a new raiding guild during TBC you started with Karazahn/Gruul/Maggy, then SSC/TK then went to ZA (not sure if ZA was harder or easier, it was a 10man tho, while most other raids were 25), then Mount Hyjal, then BT and then Sunwell Plateau and you'd probably go through them in that order (if for no other reason than that raid atunement was a thing and you weren't even getting into most of those without doing at least some of the previous ones)Not sure where I'd fit the TBC world bosses (like Doomlord Kazzak) in there (unlike the GW2 ones they weren't exactly killable without a competent organized raid guild)

Atunements were removed due to complaining since some people couldn't manage them, but given how they mostly required you to kill the previous tier end boss they then went and complained some more when they couldn't get through the new raids (shocker, if you couldn't get through the previous ones, which were easier), then during WotLK they devalued older raids by giving away the previous raid tier gear through dungeon tokens and when that still proved to be too much effort for many they implemented LFR and copy-pasted mechanics on "normal" and "heroic" modes and in the process burned out and killed most of the raiding scene (there were of course other factors here as well, but this is still one of the big ones).

So no, different difficulties for the same boss are a terrible idea. It's still the same boss, they're still the same mechanics. CM's are fine (that's what Ulduar basically had), but easy/hard mode like WoW currently has is just a very big no.

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@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

It is the nature of mmorpgs, whether you like it or not. Just take a look at this graph from WoW raiding:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1745139-Armory-Stats-Highmaul-and-Blackrock-Foundry-Blue-Tweets-Heroes-Map-Rift-Wardrobe

Looking at this graph you can see that for a single wing of a WoW raid, there are multiple difficulties (mythic being the hardest). 70% of the WoW population completed the first wing on any difficulty. That then drops down to less than 10% of the WoW population who completed that same wing on the hardest difficulty. So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population? What do you think is going to keep the game running for longer?

If raids get boring some day (And they will, since they're pretty much a waste of time after you get everything), they'll end up putting less and less work on them, until some day they just get replaced by something else. They need a healthy population to keep growing in quality and quantity.

Catering to more people allow raids to be more epic, too. For example, imagine if the final fight of PoF had been a raid against Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. Wouldn't that be cooler than the White Mantle trash wings? Raids would be better if they actually meant anything for the world and the story, but right now they're just unmemorable side quests.

@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

It's just common sense. ArenaNet is being just stubborn and dumb.

See how well that went in the past. They never learn.

@Feanor.2358 said:You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging if it's on the same level as every other boss. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

@Gilgamesh VII.8690 said:I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

Why does people always assume it would be some huge work? They don't need to redesign bosses, just touch damage and timers, and that would be enough.

@Tyson.5160 said:Honestly, I want the Raid community to grow, I want more players in the Raid, whether that be with multi tier difficulties like they do Fractals. I would hate for Raids to go down the path that “Stronghold” Pvp mode went...

This can't be stated enough.

@CedarDog.9723 said:Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

The primary point of an easy mode is to train while having fun. Wiping and wiping is not fun. Easy mode lets new players kill the bosses after a few tries, and then they learn the mechanics and can play normal mode without needing to watch tutorials, learn guides, or get carried.

@marelooke.9708 said:No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard, yawn) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

You're not supposed to play easy mode unless you're new. If you already raid, you wouldn't even touch easy mode. It's not for you, just like hard mode would be for 0.1% only.

Also, the point of easy mode is to have the same mechanics and same bosses, with tuned down difficulty so you can learn them easily.

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@Lonami.2987 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging
if it's on the same level as every other boss
. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

Disregarding my arguments because they don't fit your opinion does not make them invalid. Exaggerating - too. The notion of "giving free LIs" is absurd. The "noobs" as you call them will have hard time beating even Escort, let alone Trio.

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@Lonami.2987 said:

@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

It's just common sense. ArenaNet is being just stubborn and dumb.

See how well that went in the past. They never learn.

The devlopers at Blizzard that implemented and made the LFR came out and said it was a big mistake. No matter how you stand on this issue, the LFR in WoW has destroyed the raiding culture there. It basically made all raid content a simple loot shitter to fuel the never ending loot grind in that game.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging
if it's on the same level as every other boss
. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

The "filler" fights are there to offer different fights and not always the same. A goal that arenanet is focused on with every raid boss and encounter. Nothing wrong with having different difficult fights too.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@Gilgamesh VII.8690 said:I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

Why does people always assume it would be some huge work? They don't need to redesign bosses, just touch damage and timers, and that would be enough.

Ah yes, crank up the boss healthbar to make them more spungie and shorten the timer to create artificial pressure. None of that changes the fights except make them more stressful. Unfortunately making fights harder while keeping them interesting is actually challenging.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@CedarDog.9723 said:Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

The primary point of an easy mode is to train while having fun. Wiping and wiping is not fun. Easy mode lets new players kill the bosses after a few tries, and then they learn the mechanics and can play normal mode without needing to watch tutorials, learn guides, or get carried.

There it is, we want easy mode so we don't have to wipe. Failure is an integral part of every learning process. To bad so many people have forgotten that in this day and age.

@Lonami.2987 said:

@marelooke.9708 said:No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard,
yawn
) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

You're not supposed to play easy mode unless you're new. If you already raid, you wouldn't even touch easy mode. It's not for you, just like hard mode would be for 0.1% only.

Also, the point of easy mode is to have the same mechanics and same bosses, with tuned down difficulty so you can learn them easily.

How do you turn down instant kill mechanics or wipe mechanics? Those are the ones that make bosses usually difficult. So now they need to be changed to do damage instead which in turn takes work. Work that would delay the next raid wing with such a small team.

But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

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It would be nice to have easy and hard mode , similar to mythic and heroic in WoW. I think extra encounter objectives would help spice it up but make them extremely hard vs heroic mode encounter objectives throughout the fight whilst also increasing damage and health on the monsters themselves. Something like this would be more interesting. I'm trying to think of ways to help increase raid difficulty without simply increasing health and damage so you're not essentially just "dragging the fight out" but actually adding in more fight mechanics between the 2 game modes to offer a more difficult experience , not just a longer experience. But doesn't CM do this already or am I mistaken?

"Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders."

No, I hate to say it but the game needs a subscription based system if you want it to have funds to be able to maintain consistent raid content, balance, dungeon overhauls (which ultimately brings back raiders and general players overall).

Look, PvP and WvW are both for the most part dying game modes. They lack a 3rd of their population they had even 2 years ago for many reasons outside of PvE and raiding but in a way, this makes all the game modes connected because they all contribute money to Anet to be able to make new areas, expansions, etc.... Hurting even one game mode indirectly hurts the others by killing those modes off in favor of another.

It's clear Anet is more focused on PvE , it has pretty much centralized it at this point with very little even going into WvW and PvP , stuff happens in those game modes but it's more of a "here, we did this , now we'll have another minor balance patch in 6 months" type situation.

This is why WoW has the funds to continually pump out expansions and more importantly raid instances and dungeon instances for people to run. This alone not only solves the issue of never getting money from both hardcore and casual but also attracts more people with new content, etc.

I know people hate the idea of subscription models, but arguably the 2 top MMO's currently utilize it in WoW and Final Fantasy. It works, and it allows companies to pump out content more regularly. At the cost of a monthly fee, comes a 5x maybe 10x increase in content return, more explorable areas, more raids, possibly a dungeon overhaul and decently timed balance changes.

Unfortunately, at this point in the game, it is such an old game, so many have quit due to ignorant balance, lack of updates in general and that I think even introducing a subscription model is too late at this point, but it would atleast help them pick back up some pace and have more consistent updates. This alone might bring back players to assist with the issues not only in PvE content but PvP/WvW as well.

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@"ZhouX.8742" said:

"Raids are neither viable nor profitable being exclusive content. We need more raiders."

No, I hate to say it but the game needs a subscription based system if you want it to have funds to be able to maintain consistent raid content, balance, dungeon overhauls (which ultimately brings back raiders and general players overall).

Selling content like Dungeons, Raids, and Story, on their own would also be a solution, as it would not only denote how profitable these modes are, the mechanic is already in the game, and they already do this (I still need to buy LW3)

This, what sells is what gets made, profit drives content, as opposed to having a big pot of money and needing to basically guess what to do next.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I was referring to the fact that that a majority of complainers have no raid experience in this game, you included.

Since one of the main arguments is accessibility it makes sense that people who have gone down this road and actually have experience with the content have a less scewed view on how accessible it is.

Raids from other games make little sense to compare since especially gear balance wise those games and how they balance raids work way differently.

Many forums posters have very strong preconceptions about raids, even though they have 0 experience with them.

The assumption that GW2 would have been better off without them is hard to make as a non developer since you don't have actual numbers on any in game statistics or how much additional players raids might have pulled.

Also no, I never mentioned kill stealing, but it;s nice that you are trying to put words in my mouth.

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@Lonami.2987 said:

@"Wandering Mist.2973" said:

It is the nature of mmorpgs, whether you like it or not. Just take a look at this graph from WoW raiding:

Looking at this graph you can see that for a single wing of a WoW raid, there are multiple difficulties (mythic being the hardest). 70% of the WoW population completed the first wing on any difficulty. That then drops down to less than 10% of the WoW population who completed that same wing on the hardest difficulty. So if you are a games developer, do you think it makes more sense to make content exclusively for the <10% of the population, or 70% of the population? What do you think is going to keep the game running for longer?

If raids get boring some day (And they will, since they're pretty much a waste of time after you get everything), they'll end up putting less and less work on them, until some day they just get replaced by something else. They need a healthy population to keep growing in quality and quantity.

Catering to more people allow raids to be more epic, too. For example, imagine if the final fight of PoF had been a raid against Balthazar and Kralkatorrik. Wouldn't that be cooler than the White Mantle trash wings? Raids would be better if they actually meant anything for the world and the story, but right now they're just unmemorable side quests.

@Ahlen.7591 said:GW2 should learn the lesson WoW did about having raid difficulties. Sooner rather than later. You still have Mythic for the people who want a serious challenge, heroic for casual players, normal for pugs, and LFR for ...special people or those that just want story.

It works well and should be duplicated on any game that wants raiding to be part of its major content.

It's just common sense. ArenaNet is being just stubborn and dumb.

See how well that went in the past. They never learn.

@Feanor.2358 said:You need to look a bit further than just mechanics. We'll keep getting things like Escort no matter what. Because there are design notions like pacing. You can't make a boss feel epic, threatening and utterly challenging
if it's on the same level as every other boss
. Variance in difficulty is an important tool to do that. It's not that you can't do a harder Escort or Trio. It's not that you want to put it there for players seeking lesser challenge (you have FotM for that already). It's that you want to distinguish what comes next, use the contrast to emphasise the next boss.

Those are there to give noobs an easy LI, plain and simple. I don't have anything against them regarding their design, it's their nonexistent difficulty that annoys me.

Everyone skipping LI-less trash like Gorseval's pres and Twisted Castle kinda reinforces my point. No one would do escort and trio if they gave no LI, because they're boring filler, there for those who can't get LIs by doing the normal bosses.

@Gilgamesh VII.8690 said:I would like to see a easy and hard mode for raids, but I don't belive it's worth the Dev time to do so. At the morment.

Why does people always assume it would be some huge work? They don't need to redesign bosses, just touch damage and timers, and that would be enough.

@Tyson.5160 said:Honestly, I want the Raid community to grow, I want more players in the Raid, whether that be with multi tier difficulties like they do Fractals. I would hate for Raids to go down the path that “Stronghold” Pvp mode went...

This can't be stated enough.

@CedarDog.9723 said:Instead of making an easy mode (so that players will probably play it once for what will most likely be little to no rewards), why not just make a lore recap with an extended cutscene like they did for living season 1?

The primary point of an easy mode is to train while having fun. Wiping and wiping is not fun. Easy mode lets new players kill the bosses after a few tries, and then they learn the mechanics and can play normal mode without needing to watch tutorials, learn guides, or get carried.

@marelooke.9708 said:No, just no. The only good way to have easy/hard modes is if the mechanics are different enough otherwise you just bore your raiders (hi Blizzard,
yawn
) and if you do that then either you're in CM waters or you are already designing what is basically a new boss.

You're not supposed to play easy mode unless you're new. If you already raid, you wouldn't even touch easy mode. It's not for you, just like hard mode would be for 0.1% only.

Also, the point of easy mode is to have the same mechanics and same bosses, with tuned down difficulty so you can learn them easily.

Why do people assume that it's a copy and paste job or just a few number changes, only Anet know how long it will take.

It also what kind of easy mode people want like:

*Remove enrage timer so people can play safer builds without the time pressure and DPS check.

*reduced damage numbers to give a bit more room for error.

*remove or reduce some mechanics to lessen the pressure. Example only needing 3 people to be on greens at VG.

If people what the removed timer that would take less time but if people what less or removed mechanics then thar will take longer to develop, test and debug.

Another problem is rewards, lest say Anet decided to not put rewards in as it is easy mode, how long till easy mode dies out because it's not rewarding like story dungeons. Then let's say they put LI as a reward in easy mode how many people will run normal if they can get the same rewards as in easy.

There's far more things to think about then just assuming it's a easy job for them, as there are other questions and what ifs that arise adding content and modes.

I don't mind if they put Dev time into it as it would be a plus for people who would use it as training runs, but then they gotta think was it worth it if no one is playing easy mode a month later or and forum post saying easy mode is not rewarding enough.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I was referring to the fact that that a majority of complainers have no raid experience in this game, you included.

You wrong me.. I have raid experience in GW2.. ta da.. how else do you think I know that they are no better then any other double group dungeons I have done in other games, I was part of that 20%, that tried them.. as I was more then willing to give Anet the benefit of the doubt maybe they had something special, and really, how can you know for sure if you don't like something if you never tried it?

You really ought to keep your wrong assumptions to yourself, or better yet.. stop making them.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

  • raids are 30-man
  • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
  • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
  • uses a typical tank and spank model
  • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:
  • raids are 30-man
  • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
  • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
  • uses a typical tank and spank model
  • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for Mechanics of the Raid itself, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design. That however is it's own discussion. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the ONE thing you said that involved the actual Raid Mechanic.

  • uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call, VG is a typical Tank and Spank model.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic. Everything the core game was not.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:The devlopers at Blizzard that implemented and made the LFR came out and said it was a big mistake.No. One developer said he didn't like the way it turned out, but he didn't exactly speak against the general idea. Just the specific implementation.Also, obviously, his bosses didn't share his view, because LFR is still there.

@Cyninja.2954 said:How do you turn down instant kill mechanics or wipe mechanics? Those are the ones that make bosses usually difficult.Actually, no, they are usually not the reasons for wipes. It's the secondary mechanics and pressure that usually start a failure chain reaction.

For example, i haven't seen many wipes to greens on VG that weren't caused by a green runner being teleported away first, or by seeker mismanagement. Gorse World Eater kills because people lost too much dps due to other mechanics first. Sabetha flamewall does sometimes kill people, but is only rarely a cause of a full wipe. And so on.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.Done those as well. Now working for a second armor set. I don't think i lack experience in that regard at all. And while all that in-game experience changed my view on some of the minor points, it didn't change anything major. Not that i expected it would - raids in this game are not all that different or unique.
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@STIHL.2489 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:
  • raids are 30-man
  • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
  • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
  • uses a typical tank and spank model
  • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for
Mechanics of the Raid itself
, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.
That however is it's own discussion
. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the
ONE
thing you said that involved the actual
Raid Mechanic
.
  • uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,
VG is a typical Tank and Spank model
.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.
Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

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No people just need to sit down and deal with wipes like people do in every other mmo instead of cry a pool of salt that would make the dead sea blush. Seriously the retention rate for people in groups that wipe is insane. Back when i played FF14, i was in a minstrals ballad thoradins reign learning/clear party., and most of them stayed for over 4hours, same with sophia extreme, nidhogg, a11s/a12s (never got there a12s with pug tho that was guild only runs later on). Here if we got a wipe on cairn or something its common for 2-4 leaving with out notice.

There's none of that here i think its due to the theme park nature of this game maybe if they don't get there stuff quickly in a raid they will just leave and do something else, and likely never come back due to the fact they don't have to and the last time they were there they got there shit kicked in. I say anet need to add First time bonuses for the entire raid group to help retention rates on wipes because getting tokens not cutting it.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The devlopers at Blizzard that implemented and made the LFR came out and said it was a big mistake.No.
One
developer said he didn't like the way it turned out, but he didn't exactly speak against the general idea. Just the specific implementation.Also, obviously, his bosses didn't share his view, because LFR is still there.

@Cyninja.2954 said:How do you turn down instant kill mechanics or wipe mechanics? Those are the ones that make bosses usually difficult.Actually, no, they are usually
not
the reasons for wipes. It's the secondary mechanics and pressure that usually start a failure chain reaction.

For example, i haven't seen many wipes to greens on VG that weren't caused by a green runner being teleported away first, or by seeker mismanagement. Gorse World Eater kills because people lost too much dps due to other mechanics first. Sabetha flamewall does sometimes kill people, but is only rarely a cause of a full wipe. And so on.

Gorse world eater kills people because of lack of damage. Are you telling me that an inexperienced group will automatically produce enough damage to skip it?

Sloths poison going off in the group OR not proper mushroom eating is a guaranteed wipe. No mechanical change will improve that.

KC has enough instant wipe mechanics to not even have to name them all. None of them damage based.

Xera not clearing shards or not ccing her defiance bar as well as wrong bubble timing will cause a wipe.

Cairn with aoe swipe is certain doom for players that get knocked off the platform.

MO will wipe the raid with burning platforms and spears.

Deimos, yeah not even going to get into that fight and wing 5 is not even worth mentioning.

So I respectfully disagree that most instant death mechanics are not responsible. Quite a few are in fact and no amount of damage toning down will change those.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:
  • raids are 30-man
  • another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
  • the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
  • uses a typical tank and spank model
  • has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for
Mechanics of the Raid itself
, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.
That however is it's own discussion
. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the
ONE
thing you said that involved the actual
Raid Mechanic
.
  • uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,
VG is a typical Tank and Spank model
.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.
Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

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