Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

Cyninja.2954 · December 15, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

STIHL.2489 · December 15, 2017

@"Genesis.5169" said:No people just need to sit down and deal with wipes like people do in every other mmo instead of cry a pool of salt that would make the dead sea blush. Seriously the retention rate for people in groups that wipe is insane. Back when i played FF14, i was in a minstrals ballad thoradins reign learning/clear party., and most of them stayed for over 4hours, same with sophia extreme, nidhogg, a11s/a12s (never got there a12s with pug tho that was guild only runs later on). Here if we got a wipe on cairn or something its common for 2-4 leaving with out notice.
There's none of that here i think its due to the theme park nature of this game maybe if they don't get there stuff quickly in a raid they will just leave and do something else, and likely never come back due to the fact they don't have to and the last time they were there they got there kitten kicked in. I say anet need to add First time bonuses for the entire raid group to help retention rates on wipes because getting tokens not cutting it.

I agree with you. this is mainly due to the fact that the core game was designed to attract people who had very little play time and still wanted to be able to make progress Such a foundation does not lend itself well to a "raid culture" and truth be told.. never will, which is just one of the many reasons why raids are more disjunctive to GW2 then a logical addition.

I have no solutions to this... nor shall I pretend such, it's on Anet to do whatever they feel is best, and I have no grievances regardless of what they do at this point.

STIHL.2489 · December 15, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

So you are admitting you can't explain how they are intrinsically different,. Works for me.

Are we done now?

Cyninja.2954 · December 15, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

So you are admitting you can't explain how they are intrinsically different,. Works for me.

Are we done now?

Sabatha, no tank mechanic.Sloth alternating tank mechanic which demands every member of the team be aware of the fight.Trio no tank mechanic.Matthias no tank mechanic.Escort no tank mechanic.Cairn no tank mechanic.Samarog alternating tank mechanic which again demands a different skill set from every player.

That's on top of the fact that TERA raids were 30 man big with gear progression in mind (which I slowly think you never actually participated in). Yeah I think we are done here.

Genesis.5169 · December 15, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

So you are admitting you can't explain how they are intrinsically different,. Works for me.

Are we done now?

Sabatha, no tank mechanic.Sloth alternating tank mechanic which demands every member of the team be aware of the fight.Trio no tank mechanic.Matthias no tank mechanic.Escort no tank mechanic.Cairn no tank mechanic.Samarog alternating tank mechanic which again demands a different skill set from every player.

That's on top of the fact that TERA raids were 30 man big with gear progression in mind (which I slowly think you never actually participated in). Yeah I think we are done here.

I can agree with you as a former tera player, tera is far more traditional then gw2 how ever raiding in tera is far more difficult then gw2. I really do believe its an issue with the will to learn vs the community at large + the current state of squad commanders not trusting anyone without absurd amounts of KPs + raid retention rate.

People often try to find one monolithic reason why things are the way they are, its rarely ever just one thing.

Cyninja.2954 · December 15, 2017

@Genesis.5169 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

So you are admitting you can't explain how they are intrinsically different,. Works for me.

Are we done now?

Sabatha, no tank mechanic.Sloth alternating tank mechanic which demands every member of the team be aware of the fight.Trio no tank mechanic.Matthias no tank mechanic.Escort no tank mechanic.Cairn no tank mechanic.Samarog alternating tank mechanic which again demands a different skill set from every player.

That's on top of the fact that TERA raids were 30 man big with gear progression in mind (which I slowly think you never actually participated in). Yeah I think we are done here.

I can agree with you as a former tera player, tera is far more traditional then gw2 how ever raiding in tera is far more difficult then gw2. I really do believe its an issue with the will to learn vs the community at large + the current state of squad commanders not trusting anyone without absurd amounts of KPs + raid retention rate.

People often try to find one monolithic reason why things are the way they are, its rarely ever just one thing.

I never said TERA raids are easier. I said they were different to which STIHL took objections but has yet to prove they are similar to GW2 raids.

STIHL.2489 · December 15, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

So you are admitting you can't explain how they are intrinsically different,. Works for me.

Are we done now?

Sabatha, no tank mechanic.

You can have someone stand in her "hit box" and lock up some of her abilities, which is a Typical Tank move. So.. she can be tanked to a point.. bumped off the pillar at the first one, and that's really not a good start. I don't care to continue this, and I am not being pandering at this point, but I used TERA as a joke, they don't really have raids.. They have BAM's, for large group events (World Bosses of sorts, it's a signature part of their game) and they have 1, count it.. 1, 10 person dungeon and that is considered a joke.. and still you struggled to find something that made GW2's 10 person instance special in comparison to a game that not much beyond a cheap panty shot grinder (no offence to people that like TERA, but you know the skin show was half the game).

I am scared to think how bad you would stumble if I used a game with actual raids like LotRo, Wildstar, FF14, DDO, EQ2, etc.

Cyninja.2954 · December 15, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Feanor.2358 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:But we are talking in circles. All of these things have been mentioned hundreds of times from both sides. The one side usually represented by raiders who have experience with the content, and the other side by often forum warriors who have 0 clue what they are talking about.

I have done raids since the 90's. I have a clue what I am talking about. Thanks for the wrong assumptions.

So have I, I was talking about raids in GW2.

You make it sound like they are somehow different then raids in TERA for example. I didn't see anything unique or special about GW2 raids, that make something different them what we have done to death many times before. Some of us are simply burned out from the Drama and BS, have our small circle of people, and don't see the magical need for Double Group Dungeons, Which is really all a raid in this game.. like so many others.. just a double group dungeon encounter.. meh. Raids are common, generic content, nothing special about them, and truth be told, GW2 would have been better off trying to find a new approach, to test the norm, then fall back on such a bland system, its a step back for the game as a whole.. next will you beg them for Kill Stealing.. to make the game more challenging?

I beg to differ. Raids in GW2 aren't generic. Dungeons are indeed.

Ok.. if you beg to differ.. go for it.. Explain in detail how the Mechanics in GW2 Raids are intrinsically different then say TERAs Raids.

You mean besides the fact that TERAs was:

raids are 30-man
another raid which was basically an extended dungeon for 10-man
the game is absolutely focused on constant gear progression
uses a typical tank and spank model
has level progression with expansions which devalues all previous content

Honestly, it doesn't take much googling for even an inexperienced non-TERA player to find enough differences in both raid design and game design to realize that both system are fundamentally different. But I'll bite, please explain how GW2 and TERA raids are similar because you seem to be the TERA expert here with a ton of GW2 raiding experience.

That is why I asked for

Mechanics of the Raid itself

, not the Core Game. We are all well aware that GW2 and TERA, have very different game designs, that is also a major point of objection to Raids being added to GW2 in the first place, as they do not mend with the game's core makeup design.

That however is it's own discussion

. So, I am going to ignore all irrelevant stuff and get to the

ONE

thing you said that involved the actual

Raid Mechanic

.

uses typical tank and spank model.

Here is your wake up call,

VG is a typical Tank and Spank model

.

So again.. what is intrinsically mechanically different about the raids in TERA vs GW2.. maybe now from someone that knows raids in both games?

Or maybe, we can go with a comparison with a different game, we don't have to use TERA. Maybe Wildstar? FFXIV? EQ2, if you are a bit old school?

In the end.. GW2 Raids are not uniquely different from raids in other games, they are cliche and generic.

Everything the core game was not.

You are the one claiming they are similar, you have not yet shown this to be the case. I've raided in DAoC, WoW, Aion and GW2. To me the GW2 raids are quite unique. On top of that the 2 games you are referring to have very different raid sizes as well as game mechanics. You're the one who has to prove they are similar.

Also VG is 1 fight of by now 17. Yes, there is tank and spank fights in GW2 raids, now show that VG is similar to all 16 other raid fights here or show that all the others are tank and spank (besides all the other details but let's start with tank and spank only).

I shall do no such thing, nor do I have to, Since my point was cemented when we both agreed that VG is a Generic Tank and Spank, it's now on you to prove Raids in this game are somehow special and offer a unique feel from other games.

Good Luck.

So you are agreeing that your entire argument is based on 1 fight. Works for me.

So you are admitting you can't explain how they are intrinsically different,. Works for me.

Are we done now?

Sabatha, no tank mechanic.

You can have someone stand in her "hit box" and lock up some of her abilities, which is a Typical Tank move. So.. she can be tanked to a point.. bumped off the pillar at the first one, and that's really not a good start. I don't care to continue this, and I am not being pandering at this point, but I used TERA as a joke, they don't really have raids.. They have BAM's, for large group events (World Bosses of sorts, it's a signature part of their game) and they have 1, count it.. 1, 10 person dungeon and that is considered a joke.. and still you struggled to find something that made GW2's 10 person instance special in comparison to a game that not much beyond a cheap panty shot grinder.

I am scared to think how bad you would stumble if I used a game with actual raids like LotRo, Wildstar, FF14, DDO, EQ2, etc.

So after all this, you basically used another game as a joke, then went on about your superior raid knowledge...

Imagine someone with 0 clue of both games reading all this without you getting called out on this? You should feel ashamed.

STIHL.2489 · December 15, 2017

No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

Cyninja.2954 · December 15, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

You brought the game up. What are you talking about? I even stated that I only did a basic google search which already showed the game design and encounter design to be vastly different.

STIHL.2489 · December 15, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

You brought the game up. What are you talking about? I even stated that I only did a basic google search which already showed the game design and encounter design to be vastly different.

So let me see if I got this right.. you walk into the discussion.. admit you know nothing but yet hope that you will beat someone with knowledge of both.

You know, before I raid, I try to get a clue before i walk in, You might want to try that with forum discussion, I don't know, running in blind hoping to win might be how you roll tho, I feel bad for your raid group.

Feanor.2358 · December 15, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

I get the impression you're doing that about GW2 raids. I don't care if you're played raids in every single other mmo out there. The fact of matter is, raids in this game are very different from any other content in mechanical variety. Ultimately every content can be reduced to a dps race, but that doesn't make it generic. If someone claims raids are as generic as dungeons, he either never really played raids here or is simply being dishonest.

Cyninja.2954 · December 15, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

You brought the game up. What are you talking about? I even stated that I only did a basic google search which already showed the game design and encounter design to be vastly different.

So let me see if I got this right.. you walk into the discussion.. admit you know nothing but yet hope that you will beat someone with knowledge of both.

You know, before I raid, I try to get a clue before i walk in, You might want to try that with forum discussion, I don't know, running in blind hoping to win might be how you roll tho, I feel bad for your raid group.

I walked into the discussion having knowledge about raids in gw2, which is what this is actually about.

You started talking about other games raids and brought up TERA. Which I indulged.

You now decided to call it all off as a joke because, well I don't even know why. With now trying to point blame at me? Wow.

STIHL.2489 · December 15, 2017

Sorry.. done with this.

Alaia Skyhawk.5064 · December 15, 2017

I'm one of the people who has to try balance gaming time with a fulltime job. My working hours have meant I'm never available at the same times as all my friends are, so we've found it impossible to set up our own group, and indeed every other possible group I've looked into raids on days/at times when I'm still trawling my way home from work. I really miss the days when I'd do Urgoz's Warren or the other 12-man elite missions from GW1. They were challenging, but not crazily so. You needed a good comp set-up, but they didn't take so long that you couldn't fit them in easily on an evening. Carrying a newbie along so they could "learn on the job" was easy enough that I never had any reservations about encouraging guildies to give the elite missions a go.

I've no interest in GW2's Legendary Armor, LI is a meaningless and wasted currency for me, so the suggestion of easymode having no LI reward suits me perfect and I'm sure that's the same for a lot of others. I do however really like a lot of the earnable skins from the raids, and would have no problems with going for an easymode run with lower rewards, but which would let me steadily work towards those skins even if it takes me longer overall. And not only that but also allow me to experience the story and lore in the raids, when story and lore are two things I love about this game.

The Vale Guardian easymode suggested alterations really clicked with me, since the biggest frustration I've had with that fight in the few times I've actually bothered to raid, is that for the opening boss of the opening wing, the green circle mechanic is excruciatingly punishing while you're learning. Especially when you consider how easy Goreseval is by comparison in terms of the number of mechanics he has. Having it do damage, but not be an insta-wipe, would go a long long way towards letting newcomers learn that fight while still having a chance to recover from mistakes during it. I can think of a number of friends who would love the chance to learn to raid, but have zero chance of being able to dedicate the time to that which it needs with the current way things are.

So yeah, I'd love an easymode version with lower rewards, just as I have friends who would relish having a challenge-mode version of the existing encounters. I can only hope Anet seriously considers giving the idea some thought.

STIHL.2489 · December 16, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

You brought the game up. What are you talking about? I even stated that I only did a basic google search which already showed the game design and encounter design to be vastly different.

So let me see if I got this right.. you walk into the discussion.. admit you know nothing but yet hope that you will beat someone with knowledge of both.

You know, before I raid, I try to get a clue before i walk in, You might want to try that with forum discussion, I don't know, running in blind hoping to win might be how you roll tho, I feel bad for your raid group.

I walked into the discussion having knowledge about raids in gw2, which is what this is actually about.

You started talking about other games raids and brought up TERA. Which I indulged.

You now decided to call it all off as a joke because, well I don't even know why. With now trying to point blame at me? Wow.

The discussion was about Raids in GW2, vs Raids in other games. You only had half the knowledge to have a civil discussion. That is a faulting on your part.

Cyninja.2954 · December 16, 2017

@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.

You brought the game up. What are you talking about? I even stated that I only did a basic google search which already showed the game design and encounter design to be vastly different.

So let me see if I got this right.. you walk into the discussion.. admit you know nothing but yet hope that you will beat someone with knowledge of both.

You know, before I raid, I try to get a clue before i walk in, You might want to try that with forum discussion, I don't know, running in blind hoping to win might be how you roll tho, I feel bad for your raid group.

I walked into the discussion having knowledge about raids in gw2, which is what this is actually about.

You started talking about other games raids and brought up TERA. Which I indulged.

You now decided to call it all off as a joke because, well I don't even know why. With now trying to point blame at me? Wow.

The discussion was about Raids in GW2, vs Raids in other games. You only had half the knowledge to have a civil discussion. That is a faulting on your part.

As mentioned my rading experience includes games as far back as DAoC (DAoC, WoW, Aion) as well as every boss in GW2.

You decided to bring up TERA and when asked to provide examples how they (TERA raids) are similar to GW2 even though the game is designed completely differently (30 man raids, tank and spank, progressive gearing) you decided to get personal and change the topic (aka abandon your TERA example). Part of your civil discussion was now removed. The rest can be read in this thread up to this point.

Cyninja.2954 · December 16, 2017

double post

Kuulpb.5412 · December 16, 2017

As someone who previously wanted ( and semi still wants) a story raid mode. I have to say - After beginning to raid properly as I previously had done some bosses, ( it honestly isn't that hard, I've been joining pugs, a few of them are censored words but a few are nice.) I can say Raids Can be difficult for Pugs, and as someone not very social, pugging is a bit of an emotionally draining thing ( I have to try and not be rude to people, not my fault if they're idiots) BUT it is rewarding when you kill a boss. Over the past 48 hours I've killed Slothasor, Matthias, finished escort, killed VG and gorseval and almost killed KC (who Is all I need for armour :D), so it's not THAT hard to get into raiding, I'd probably be wrong, but I recommend that people start as a dps thing so they don't have to focus on the team much, just on boss mechanics etc.

Cyninja.2954 · December 16, 2017

@Kuulpb.5412 said:As someone who previously wanted ( and semi still wants) a story raid mode. I have to say - After beginning to raid properly as I previously had done some bosses, ( it honestly isn't that hard, I've been joining pugs, a few of them are censored words but a few are nice.) I can say Raids Can be difficult for Pugs, and as someone not very social, pugging is a bit of an emotionally draining thing ( I have to try and not be rude to people, not my fault if they're idiots) BUT it is rewarding when you kill a boss. Over the past 48 hours I've killed Slothasor, Matthias, finished escort, killed VG and gorseval and almost killed KC (who Is all I need for armour :D), so it's not THAT hard to get into raiding, I'd probably be wrong, but I recommend that people start as a dps thing so they don't have to focus on the team much, just on boss mechanics etc.

Starting as dps is in general considered the easiest way so that is a good idea.

Congratulations on actively starting to raid. Don't worry about the PUGs that are idiots, you'll meet those type of players in every game mode.

My recommendation would be, try to find a nice guild and start playing with them. Not only will this be less draining on your nerves but will make the entire process also more fun.

Astralporing.1957 · December 16, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:Starting as dps is in general considered the easiest way so that is a good idea.Either that, or banner warrior. And if you start as dps, it's probably best to pick one of the easier rotation classes (like soulbeast) initially. Weaver for example has a rotation that can be challenging for some even under perfect circumstances, so probably is not a good first choice unless you're already well used to it.

STIHL.2489 · December 16, 2017

@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:
@Cyninja.2954 said:
@STIHL.2489 said:No.. You should have never talked about a game you knew nothing about.