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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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I don't think dungeons are a good example, because dungeons were butchered on purpose by Anet: the team disbanded and no one wants to even touch them again. Whereas WvW still has a dev team (in spite of jokes that no one cares about WvW).

On the matter of rewards, Raids are comparable to playing a single game on its hardest settings: you don't really play it for the rewards, you play to put yourself to the test and taking a shot at breaking records, etc. Repeating raids over and over should be an exercise akin to racing the ghost driver of your previous race in a racing game, only shooting for a better time score. Giving rewards for it should work as an excuse and not the central point of it all. The unique skins like Oblivion and Matthias' Staff are perfect for example. Now, giving the only fully animated armor set in the whole game, in a game that is all about collecting skins, inside a mode that caters to challenge-seeking players? It would be baffling if Anet didn't know they would create at least some conflict within players (alas, they apparently didn't due to the rushed addition of "legendary" pvp/wvw armor).

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@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.Previous experiences have shown something completely different. Good rewards are necessary to keep player population up. Exclusives don't help much in that regard at all, and sometimes can cause an opposite reaction (players that are in for exclusives leave once they've got them, generally do not care about the content itself in the slightest, and if there's too much of them, well, see how the SPvP ended up as a result of a wave of Ascension backpack farmers).

@Feanor.2358 said:WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.Dungeon LFGs have shown clearly that exclusives are not what motivates majority of players. Current dungeons have exactly as much exclusives as they've had at their peak population. It was not due to them that the players came, and it was not due to lack of those that they've left.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.Previous experiences have shown something completely different.
Good
rewards are necessary to keep player population up. Exclusives don't help much in that regard at all, and sometimes can cause an opposite reaction (players that are in for exclusives leave once they've got them, generally do not care about the content itself in the slightest, and if there's too much of them, well, see how the SPvP ended up as a result of a wave of Ascension backpack farmers).

@Feanor.2358 said:WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.Dungeon LFGs have shown clearly that exclusives are
not
what motivates majority of players. Current dungeons have exactly as much exclusives as they've had at their peak population. It was not due to them that the players came, and it was not due to lack of those that they've left.

Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance ).

  • Dungeons now provide similar loot and rewards compared to their peak
  • Dungeons now are easier than during vanilla due to massive power creep
  • Dungeons are even easier thanks to mass availability of guides, tutorials, out of game help

What changed?

Simple, everything else. There is now multiple way more lucrative ways of gaining more gold/hour, most of them without requirement of partying or any type of social interaction. Back when dungeons and Silverwastes were the top farms available, people would alternate which of both they ran even though Silverwastes was more lucrative (and world bosses were run as well). Now that there is multiple silverwaste open world opportunities, the interest in dungeons has subsided.

What this shows is that if given enough alternatives to not party yet gain the same amount of wealth/progress, people will chose single player alternatives often (easier to manage, no requirements for social interaction, scheduling conflicts, less demanding skill wise in this game, etc.). While that might be considered a short term benefit to the individual, it's absolute poison for a MMORPG and is a main reason for deterioration of community, guilds and social interaction between players.

Given this basic idea, there is 2 ways to keep raids interesting:

  • exclusives
  • very high gold/wealth rewards

I'm not sure which people would complain more about and which is healthier to the general games economy (well I have my thought on this but let's keep it short).

EDIT: change Principle of least effort to Path of least resistance because I really don't feel like explaining how both can be applied. Also most people will be more familiar with the later than with the former. For reference, Principle of least effort: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_effort

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:Why else did they demand the content to stat with.. it wasn't born in a void.. it was petitioned by the players..

Believe what you want, by why else beg for the content and rabidly defend the exclusive rewards linked to it, other then for selfish motives, the only real question is, is all this back and fort is either purely insufferable childish pertness, or does it have the underlying motive of the profit gained from selling raid slots.

Believe it or not, it was asked by the players because they wanted to have something fun to do in the game.Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

WRONG. WvW proved this nonsense wrong, for YEARS.

So done with this nonsense.

WvW is a PvP mode, it is not comparable. See dungeon LFGs.

WRONG

You said.

Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough.
It's true for any game mode
or content, really.

That's the reason for locking Gifts of Battle in WvW and giving PvP their own backpiece though. But I'll admit my original statement isn't as strong for PvP modes. Stillstays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Path_of_least_resistance ).Precisely. While rewards were a motivating factor, it was all about pure material/gold gain, it was never about exclusives.

@Feanor.2358 said:Still stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.Making the dungeon skins available through PvP tracks did not make any visible impact to the dungeon population. It has been rising and falling based on gold rewards and difficulty (with some slight impact added from achievements). Exclusives vere never considered a major consideration in all this.

And as for things like Gift of Battle... First, they require only slight dipping in the content - they are a reason to see the content, but don't require too much investment into it. Second, those that require too much of an investment are in the long run actually hurtful to the content. The players that are interested in the mode for the exclusives only play it differently than those that are in it primarily for fun. This often causes friction between those two groups that can have negative consequences for the whole mode. This could be seen already both in WvW and sPvP.

Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance:
).Precisely. While rewards were a motivating factor, it was all about pure material/gold gain, it was never about exclusives.

@Feanor.2358 said:Still stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.Making the dungeon skins available through PvP tracks did not make any visible impact to the dungeon population. It has been rising and falling based on gold rewards and difficulty (with some slight impact added from achievements). Exclusives vere never considered a major consideration in all this.

And as for things like Gift of Battle... First, they require only slight dipping in the content - they are a reason to see the content, but don't require too much investment into it. Second, those that require too much of an investment are in the long run actually hurtful to the content. The players that are interested in the mode for the exclusives only play it differently than those that are in it primarily for fun. This often causes friction between those two groups that can have negative consequences for the whole mode. This could be seen already both in WvW and sPvP.

Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

I like how you took part of my post, and omitted the part which would be a problem.

So if you are against exclusives in raids, you must favor for arenanet to increase the gold/wealth reward substantially then.

We are currently at around 20g/hour for raids if you complete wings 1-4 in around 2 hours. That's already behind RIBA in Siverwastes which is around 30-40 gold per hour without a weekly lockout. Should we increase gold rewards for raids to around 300-400 gold per hour then(weekly lockouts, most challenging pve content, etc.)?

What would be a sufficient gold reward motivator in your opinion to keep the mode relevant when moving away from exclusives?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

You're looking at the problem from too close, at an individual level. You need to step back and look at the big picture. It's not about the motives of an individual player, it's about managing the population of the game mode. Again, dungeons. There are many people who like to play these for fun, but usually don't. Why? Because there aren't enough players out there. Because it's no fun to hang in LFG for half an hour. You don't only need to give motivations for players who are already interested, you need to draw enough people in to sustain the game mode by making it easy to play. Raids already have drawbacks in this respect by both being more challenging and requiring twice as many people. Hence, rewards. These are the universal motivator in games, especially in PvE.

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Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

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@Tyson.5160 said:Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

Because it's different levels of challenge, intended for different players. The difference with a hypothetical easy mode being, there is already content with lower-than-raid difficulty - FotM CM, T4, T3, T2, T1 in this order.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

The same reason there is challenge modes for fractals. Extra challenge for very dedicated players but not pushing the bar to far beyond what difficulty the developers are aiming for.

Also only wing 4 and 5 have challenge modes, wing 1, 2 and 3 have achievements based on limiting your groups performance without actually changing the fight mechanics. The challenge modes in wing 4 and 5 again mostly just alter some of the already existing attacks without outright changing them.

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I think raids are fine how they are right now, but adding an easy mode for practice/fun wouldn't hurt, as long as they don't get LI' or achievments while doing it. It should be used for training/fun, not for "baddies" to farm legendary armor. Vendor items are fine tho, as long as they have to pay the same price and have the same drop rate.

I don't even consider myself a awesome raider, but honestly if i could just make my legendary armor raiding on easy mode, i wouldn't even want it. It would feel boring like all other legendaries in the game.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

Because it's different levels of challenge, intended for different players. The difference with a hypothetical easy mode being, there is already content with lower-than-raid difficulty - FotM CM, T4, T3, T2, T1 in this order.

Just speaking about raids, not fractals.

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@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:Anet has said time and time again, no easy mode, which unfortunate, yet they continue to make the Challenge Modes. Why not skip the challenge modes as well or make the Challenge mode the regular normal modes. By getting rid of one of these mode, would it not make the development time faster?

Challenge modes are not even comparable to raid boss designs. Also they do skip challenge modes, the new fractal doesn't have one if you have noticed. Currently only 2 challenge modes exist in fractals and both simply increase the frequency of attacks as well as increase the radius, nothing which requires complex rework and is basically just an up-scaling similar how T1 scales to T4 making challenge modes on those fractals a T5. They introduce challenge modes on fractals where they make sense and so far the mechanics between normal and challenge mode do not require much adjusting.

That's not the case for raids where many mechanics are do or die not to mention the entire reward adjustment requirements etc.

Strictly from a raid design, why have a Challenge Mode to begin with, just make the Chalkenge Mode the main mode.

Because it's different levels of challenge, intended for different players. The difference with a hypothetical easy mode being, there is already content with lower-than-raid difficulty - FotM CM, T4, T3, T2, T1 in this order.

Just speaking about raids, not fractals.

I know you're speaking of raids, but it makes no sense to make raids and fractals compete with each other. They would be exactly the same - instanced PvE content of the same difficulty. There's no point, they would be serving the same purpose and ultimately one of these will die due to lack of players. And it will be the easy mode raids, as they will still have inherently higher barrier of entry because it is harder to find 9 other players than it is to find 4.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

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The gap between new players or late players and the regularraid players is huge and is widening more and more.People say "start with golem, watch videos" Okai that's right, it's an important step, but when you're ready obviously golem is a thing, manage the real boss, manage the others players, understanding what the F is going, the difference with the video guide ... its an other thing.And you know how people are talkative and advisor on MMOs (the t4 fractals without any "Hi" and "Ty")I did some wings, I didn't even knwo why I had to stay in green zone or ohers, what was the wipe mechanics, why condi was recommanded etc, like "don't tell them you don't remember why, don't tell you're a noob"A training or easy mode would help players catch up the level, without kick or ragequit, monday raid guild when it's wednesday, understanding strat and mechanics by themselves ...

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

You're looking at the problem from too close, at an individual level. You need to step back and look at the big picture. It's not about the motives of an individual player, it's about managing the population of the game mode. Again, dungeons. There are many people who like to play these for fun, but usually don't. Why? Because there aren't enough players out there. Because it's no fun to hang in LFG for half an hour. You don't only need to give motivations for players who are already interested, you need to draw enough people in to sustain the game mode by making it easy to play. Raids already have drawbacks in this respect by both being more challenging and requiring twice as many people. Hence, rewards. These are the universal motivator in games, especially in PvE.

But that makes no sense.You will seldomly hear from PvP players that PvP sucks because it has not much rewards, just look into the pvp section to see why it sucks. The answer is balance.You will also seldomly hear that wvw sucks because it is rewarded even less then PvP. People, myself included, paid for keep upgrades. Huge sums to be honest. And the correct answer here is pirate ship meta, AoE, PvD and lack of love wvw gets from Anet.*You will sometimes hear the open world PvE is boring, easy and repetive. It is. But remember that the first world bosses are 5! years old and Anet has only upgraded them once at best. Everyone who is here from the start has done them a million times. Those were easy. Anet raised the bar a litte in the newer maps. If you fight your way through a bunch of elite/veteran white mantles with a cleric, a necro and an elementalist in their ranks all on yourself witrhout breaking a sweat gratulations, you´re a better player than I am.

People played these modes for years despite neglect because they love them, not because they need them for the completion of X. There are a larger numver of mithril intruders or even knights in the server I fight against. Nobody becomes a mithril knight because he has to, you would have thrown the towel in multiple times if you had to make it without wanting that. I play wvw for about 3 out of 5 years(no interest for the first 2 years) and I am only a silver colonel.It sounds inherently wrong for me to support a game mode that needs icentives to lure those in who are wavering if they should do it or even worse cull in those who basically don´t want to but want the shinies. Wvw and PvP have proven that they have a leg to stand on even when they are badly neglected or have a small player base. Why can´t raids do the same?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Actually dungeons show that one of the main motivating factors is gold rewards in pve and a gravitation towards least effort required for maximum profit (which nicely coincides with the path of least resistance:
).Precisely. While rewards were a motivating factor, it was all about pure material/gold gain, it was never about exclusives.

@Feanor.2358 said:Still stays true for PvE. Dungeon exclusive rewards are largely exhausted and nobody cares about these anymore. The only incentive left is to get an occasional Gift for making a legendary, which requires you to do a grand total of 5 dungeon paths.Making the dungeon skins available through PvP tracks did not make any visible impact to the dungeon population. It has been rising and falling based on gold rewards and difficulty (with some slight impact added from achievements). Exclusives vere never considered a major consideration in all this.

And as for things like Gift of Battle... First, they require only slight dipping in the content - they are a reason to see the content, but don't require too much investment into it. Second, those that require too much of an investment are in the long run actually hurtful to the content.
The players that are interested in the mode for the exclusives only play it differently than those that are in it primarily for fun. This often causes friction between those two groups that can have negative consequences for the whole mode. This could be seen already both in WvW and sPvP.

Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

I have to agree, WvW players hated the PvE scrubs that were there for nothing more then their Legendary. and now the Pip farmers have moved in and locked up spots in the map while not adding anything to the fight. The game mode is better off without them.

PvP players, play because they enjoy the mode, not because they need exclusive loot to make them feel special.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids
now
. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

You just ignored everything I said about how challenge modes are designed and balanced have you and the fact that they are limited to certain bosses?

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