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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


Lonami.2987

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids
now
. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

You just ignored everything I said about how challenge modes are designed and balanced have you and the fact that they are limited to certain bosses?

Then stick to one mode make it extremely difficult end of story.
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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

I think Dhuum has a Challenge Mode with a new mechanic. In terms of target difficulty content, I think Crystal stated that raids have to stay the most challenging content, which I would interpret as the Challenge Mode. That was what the Raid was created for wasn’t it? The most Challenging Instanced content? Make it super challenging then.

Yes my bad, was distracted on that part.

Raids are the most challenging content. How far this challenge gets pushed is for the developers to decide. If they decide that they want optional even challenger variations of the fights on top (similar to challenge mode fractals which do not provide more daily reward boxes as example) that's for them to decide.

I don't see how this has anything to do with easy mode though. Saying raids could or should be even more difficult (especially when the implementation of challenge modes so far was mostly by tweaking some variables and not changing mechanics) is something completely different to having to implement easy mode. Especially when challenge modes are available for only a fraction of the raid content.

@Tyson.5160 said:I mean Crystal stated that raids should the most challenging content and time is not on their side with such a small team, why waste time developing different difficulty modes, make it all challenge mode.

Depends on how much extra effort it takes to implement challenge modes and how difficult the base content is. Dhuum for one in wing 5 has no challenge mode. Neither do the escort events.

The reason why challenge modes are not base difficulty was already explained, because that's not the target difficulty for that content.

Are you sure Dhuum doesn't have a mote? I think people just can't complete it for whatever reason.

Yes, my bad. Didn't check and the wiki is not yet up to date. I was only aware of the Soulless Horror CM since I haven't killed Dhuum yet but only up to him.

The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids
now
. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument. Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

You just ignored everything I said about how challenge modes are designed and balanced have you and the fact that they are limited to certain bosses?

Yeah but, you don’t know how they are designed and you don’t know how they balance them unless you are an Anet developer.
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@Cyninja.2954 said:So if you are against exclusives in raids, you must favor for arenanet to increase the gold/wealth reward substantially then.I've already said in many threads that i do feel those rewards are lacking wealth-wise.

@Cyninja.2954 said:We are currently at around 20g/hour for raids if you complete wings 1-4 in around 2 hours. That's already behind RIBA in Siverwastes which is around 30-40 gold per hour without a weekly lockout. Should we increase gold rewards for raids to around 300-400 gold per hour then(weekly lockouts, most challenging pve content, etc.)?No, why? Let me quote what i said again:Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing itYou might find a few people thinking that RIBA is fun, but i doubt there's more than a handful of them. All the rest play it just for loot, and nothing more. As soon as a new farm with better output will appear, they will move on without feeling any sort of sentiment for the abandoned content they used to play. That's not what you'd want for Raids if you care for them.

What would be a sufficient gold reward motivator in your opinion to keep the mode relevant when moving away from exclusives?Hard to say. I would avoid balancing it around speedrunning, and week-long gains, but at the same time repeat kill rewards do need some look-over. People that are going against a boss they've already killed this week should, at the very minimum, not be losing out on it (after factoring things like food costs).I'd definitely feel okay with doubling (maybe even tripling) weekly boss kill rewards (not necessarily equally - the last bosses in the wing might get a bigger increase than first bosses/events). CMs should definitely get a repeat run rewards as well (also on a weekly lockout). I'd also add wing clear weekly rewards, to encourage people to kill the last bosses instead of just repeating the easier ones. At the moment ufortunately can't think of an easy way to make repeat kills not feel unrewarding, without buffing the rewards to the point people might repeat-farm them, but those should be upped as well.

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@Torolan.5816 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Basically, you'd want the mode to have enough rewards for the people playing it for fun to not feel like they are losing out, but not enough to actually make it a main reason for playing it. Unless, of course, you don't really care for the content at all, and are in it for different reasons.

You're looking at the problem from too close, at an individual level. You need to step back and look at the big picture. It's not about the motives of an individual player, it's about managing the population of the game mode. Again, dungeons. There are many people who like to play these for fun, but usually don't. Why? Because there aren't enough players out there. Because it's no fun to hang in LFG for half an hour. You don't only need to give motivations for players who are already interested, you need to draw enough people in to sustain the game mode by making it easy to play. Raids already have drawbacks in this respect by both being more challenging and requiring twice as many people. Hence, rewards. These are the universal motivator in games, especially in PvE.

But that makes no sense.
You will seldomly hear from PvP players that PvP sucks because it has not much rewards, just look into the pvp section to see why it sucks. The answer is balance.
You will also seldomly hear that wvw sucks because it is rewarded even less then PvP. People, myself included, paid for keep upgrades. Huge sums to be honest. And the correct answer here is pirate ship meta, AoE, PvD and lack of love wvw gets from Anet.*You will sometimes hear the open world PvE is boring, easy and repetive. It is. But remember that the first world bosses are 5! years old and Anet has only upgraded them once at best. Everyone who is here from the start has done them a million times. Those were easy. Anet raised the bar a litte in the newer maps. If you fight your way through a bunch of elite/veteran white mantles with a cleric, a necro and an elementalist in their ranks all on yourself witrhout breaking a sweat gratulations, you´re a better player than I am.

People played these modes for years despite neglect because they love them, not because they need them for the completion of X. There are a larger numver of mithril intruders or even knights in the server I fight against. Nobody becomes a mithril knight because he has to, you would have thrown the towel in multiple times if you had to make it without wanting that. I play wvw for about 3 out of 5 years(no interest for the first 2 years) and I am only a silver colonel.It sounds inherently wrong for me to support a game mode that needs icentives to lure those in who are wavering if they should do it or even worse cull in those who basically don´t want to but want the shinies. Wvw and PvP have proven that they have a leg to stand on even when they are badly neglected or have a small player base. Why can´t raids do the same?

PvP in inherently easier to motivate people because of the competition. PvE will not get creative unlike players who you play against. World bosses aren't quite the same, too, being an open-world format. People hang around maps and gather. Others go there specifically for the world bosses, but they don't really go for the gameplay, they go for the social interaction. That won't work as well in raids because of the limited number of players, i.e. the social element is much limited. It only gets worse when you add actual challenge. World bosses attract so many players because you can beat them afk. The harder the content gets, the more reluctant the casual players become because nobody likes to hug the floor 24/7. You need to account for all that when creating PvE content. And ANet has.

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Well since the old forums got deleted I can not find the post but they already said they do not want raids to be a good gold source for players or the best way to get ascended gear. I agree with this concept because it breaks away from traditional MMO's of raids being the end all for the best gear and gold gain.

I mean look at the weekly shard cap and the small amount of gold that drops from bosses (depends on rng with certain exotics and possible precursors). They finally nerfed 40 farm probably for the same reason so if you want to grind for gold there is RIBA, Lake Doric and Istan.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids now. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument.

You're glossing over the reason that different tiers of difficulty takes longer: designing niche content is quicker, because you can assume a minimum level of player skill. To create an "everyone mode" means worrying about lots of different levels of skill, plus figuring out what amounts to prestige-level rewards vs non-prestige. Adding a challenge mode increases the work of the devs, but not by nearly as much, because they can assume an even greater level of player skill.

Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

Again, you've glossed over the reasoning. It's worth it for ANet to design content that was originally intended to appeal to 10-15% (although there's evidence that more people do some raiding). Designing only for the 1% would be too little to make it worth their time. Given that the 10-15% content exists, it's some extra work to add 1%-content on top of that.

Further, you've glossed over the fact that CM doesn't exist for raids generally; just for specific encounters. Raids are generally designed for the 10-15%; a small fraction of that also includes a CM option. Similarly, out of 100 fractals variations, CM only exists for 2 (or if you want to narrow the focus to maps, only 2 of the 18).

In effect, the game already includes an "anyone can do it" raid encounter: escort just takes 10 people who can work together effectively. (And it's really anyone because we've seen it done with non-raid players running non-meta builds with non-optimized comps.)

In summary:

  • Niche content takes fewer resources to manage because it can make more assumptions about player abilities.
  • Adding CM to a few of the encounters adds work, but nominally, especially compared to widening the niche (which removes the advantage of designing for the niche).
  • There's already a wide variety of difficulty levels in the existing encounters, excluding CM.

None of which is directly related to the OP's question of "do raids need an easy mode?" — that's been answered by ANet: it's moot. The point of raids is to be challenging content; easy mode makes them something other than 'raids'."

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:The reason I bring it up is that I think it was a mistake to add the challenge mode in the first place because then any argument of making different tiered difficulties takes too long goes out the window because they are already doing a multi difficulty mode in raids
now
. It also gives easy mode a foothold to make that argument.

You're glossing over the reason that different tiers of difficulty takes longer: designing niche content is quicker, because you can assume a minimum level of player skill. To create an "everyone mode" means worrying about lots of different levels of skill, plus figuring out what amounts to prestige-level rewards vs non-prestige. Adding a challenge mode increases the work of the devs, but not by nearly as much, because they can assume an even greater level of player skill.

Raids are the most challenging content. Fine then make them super challenging then , but then only 1% can do the content, but that’s ok, because they are not designed to be accessible by everyone. That’s why raids are in the game right? The hardest most challenging content to give the raiders the ultimate challenge? Is this not the case?

Again, you've glossed over the reasoning. It's worth it for ANet to design content that was originally intended to appeal to 10-15% (although there's evidence that more people do some raiding). Designing only for the 1% would be too little to make it worth their time. Given that the 10-15% content exists, it's some extra work to add 1%-content on top of that.

Further, you've glossed over the fact that CM doesn't exist for raids
generally
; just for specific encounters. Raids are generally designed for the 10-15%; a small fraction of that also includes a CM option. Similarly, out of 100 fractals variations, CM only exists for 2 (or if you want to narrow the focus to maps, only 2 of the 18).

In effect, the game already includes an "anyone can do it" raid encounter: escort just takes 10 people who can work together effectively. (And it's really anyone because we've seen it done with non-raid players running non-meta builds with non-optimized comps.)

In summary:
  • Niche content takes fewer resources to manage because it can make more assumptions about player abilities.
  • Adding CM to a few of the encounters adds work, but nominally, especially compared to widening the niche (which removes the advantage of designing for the niche).
  • There's already a wide variety of difficulty levels in the existing encounters, excluding CM.

None of which is directly related to the OP's question of "do raids need an easy mode?" — that's been answered by ANet: it's moot. The point of raids is to be challenging content; easy mode makes them something other than 'raids'."

I get what your saying, but why have the challenge mode at all, it seems that it’s additional develop time that doesn’t need to be. Make the raid itself very challenging. Where it would take even the best a couple weeks to world first clear not in the first couple of days. I don’t have numbers for how big the raiding community is, but let’s just say 10 to 15% wouldn’t that excite the raiding community to know there is a super challenging fight where let’s give it a better success ratio of 5% that will complete it?

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While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

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@Torolan.5816 said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

Nope, that's wrong. Quality content (which raids are) will make players play it once. Replayability in PvE needs rewards.

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@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

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I can´t really comment on the quality of raids for the whole population. The half of a dozen times or so I times was in a raid I only wasted my and many other peoples time and got bored very quickly by running against the same wall over and over again. To stay with my example, I was a bored piano player and came along on the later half of these raids because my friends asked me to join until I finally put a food down and urged them to seek a replacement.

While I never really found the fun in raids, I am not so full of myself that I asume that most people are like me.

Maybe we can settle with the idea that the replayability of raids is weak then? But this would push it in the same corner as ls1, which I personally found very good but many people did not. Basically fire and forget, too weak to stand on it´s own for long so that it has to reach for a chair quickly because it has no stamina?

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

Contrary to the popular opinion, something being popular doesn't make it true either. Also known as bandwagon fallacy. Furthermore, there is a pretty notable exception to the everyone saying it. Namely, the actual game developers. Should make you think about it, shouldn't it?

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because.. they are fun.

Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because..
they are fun
.

Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because..
they are fun
.

Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because..
they are fun
.

Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

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Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

Raids suspended till team is full again
Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

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You could have an "easy mode" (like storymode for dungeons anyone?), and a normal mode (explorable mode for dungeons anyone?), and maybe a fancy "hard" mode.

You could also have it scale to the party size if that's any issue...along with rewards.

GW1 had the benefit of Henchies/Heroes to fill the slots of people in case dwindling population making such modes playable for a while. And...normal mode/hard mode. Oh, and bonus objectives.

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@"Lambros Augustus.6594" said:Its so amusing to see my guilds daily message for the past what over a year now,

Raids suspended till team is full again

Interested in joining? Look at our forum post "Raid Team" .

This is about as relevant as raids get. Cause the content is not accessible. I would seriously love to never hear about raids or fractals again if they rely on bad invisible mechanics and having a perfect connection with no lag cause even chat causes some lag.

In most games raids are always played by 10-20% of the player-base. Thats how challenging content works. Just because it is not relevant for your guild it does not mean its true for the game. A niche game mode is still valuable for a game.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because..
they are fun
.

Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

Just ran a Shatter and a Maw , had no problems pulling in a crowed of people.. including people with legendary items and weapons.

Seem that need for "special" gear is limited just to hard content.. because it sucks and no one would do it otherwise.

Want Screen shots.. gonna go a World Boss train now..

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@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Torolan.5816" said:While it is probably true what you wrote, that still does not explain why Anet sees the need to lure people into a content or just make said content. If the content was not weak on it´s own, that measure would not be necessary.

I work in the education sector, so I am often in the position of bringing the unwilling children together with their parents and their peer group.Motivations are intrinsic and extrinsic. Intrinsic motivation is multiple times stronger and more lasting than extrinsic because they arose from the person itself as a subconscious or sometimes conscious decision where the own abilites could be.Of course you can extrinsically motivate people to do something, like children who are forced to play piano because their parents heard that it is good for the hand-eye coordination. It is good for it, but it also produces a big share of people who hate the piano and play it only so long until they find the resolve to tell their parents that they still hate it like on day 1 and want out. I often ask parents if they think that this was worth it, and most can´t give me a concrete answer. If they had instead asked their children what they want to do and let them chose out of a few opportunities, they would have spared themselves all the drama and a child that has the same hand-eye coordination because it is a drummer and not a piano player.It is also not true that every children likes all other children or wants to play with them. Some are loners by hearth or just come to life when their friends are around.And the last but probably the most terrible education myth is that all children like to play finger games or get read out of a book. It is a majority, but not such a big majority that children who don´t like that are the odd man out.

So the question remains:Why produce an unwilling piano player when you could have a happy drummer?

Let me sum this up for. "Challenging" PvE content sucks for everyone, and NO ONE, would do it unless they were given some massive reward for doing it.

Hyperbole and exaggeration do not make your statements true.

true.. everyone saying the same thing does however.. case in point.

@Feanor.2358 said:Believe it or not, the exclusive rewards are needed to keep the player population high enough. It's true for any game mode or content, really.

And every single one of you has said something just like this.

I just didn't sugar coat it

Let's remove rewards from open world pve, let's see how long the game survives. Same principle.

Oh wait, pve modes and content which provides low rewards is being shunned already.

LOL, They already Tried that with Word Bosses, Killed the repeat loot farm, put them on daily timer, sunk the ability cross sever them, in some cases just made the loot overall worse.. and yet people still farm them, even the really poor loot ones like Maw. because..
they are fun
.

Word Bosses have stayed pretty sold over the years, because people enjoy them for what they are, large fun social events. While Every proponent for raids (you included) here openly already admitted, That without their exclusive rewards raids do not have the same kind of attraction or longevity.

Might be because.. Challenging content sucks, even for the people that do it, and no one would bother with them without massive rewards attached.. because.. oh right.. challenging content sucks..

That's why they had to revamp them multiple times and why people have to use the LFG tool to find full maps. Raid bosses are being run WAY less than before and those that get run are either part of a very lucrative meta or drop required items for legendarys (HoT world bosses).

yah crybabies wanting World Bosses to be harder.. and Anet discovered that challenging content sucks.. and has no longevity to it.

I was referring to the original world bosses which are being barely run now. Or story mode, or dungeons, or Tyria maps like Orr which are dead, or anything really that is not part of the most efficient farms.

Just ran a Shatter and a Maw , had no problems pulling in a crowed of people.. including people with legendary items and weapons.

Seem that need for "special" gear is limited just to hard content.. because it sucks and no one would do it otherwise.

Want Screen shots.. gonna go a World Boss train now..

You mean the bosses which back during vanilla had multiple maps running? I didn't say there weren't run at all, I said they are barely run which compared to vanilla numbers is a very accurate description.

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