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Comprehensive Revenant Balance Changes

ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

This is going to be a giant post where I intend to go over all trait lines, weapons, and legends to make adjustments to under-performing, un-intuitive, or simply clunky aspects of each. I have 2 major goals which many of these changes are meant to address:

Bring rev back to pvp viability with good diversity of options that are worth considering using.

Power rev back into the raid meta at least in the sense that you won't get instantly kicked by 99% of all groups for trying to use it. Damage is currently far too low while support isn't strong enough to make up for it so I will be looking for places to increase the damage without breaking it in pvp.

I will say that as someone who isn't massively fond of condi in general my suggestions for malyx and corruption are not going to be as thorough as for the others.

GENERAL CHANGES
Up-keep cap removed. Currently the maximum upkeep you can have is 10. This means you can't use all glint facets at the same time or use impossible odds with facet of nature. This is unnecessary and simply annoying. If I want to burn all my energy like a mad man, then let me.

When reasonable remove the cool-down from all revenant legend skills as they are gated by energy. Legend skills were meant to be akin to thief weapon skills adding cd's just ruins this feel. Small cd's on skills such as jade wind are good since otherwise you could spam casting and canceling non stop to bait all dodges, otherwise cd's are not needed.

LEGENDS
Goals: Shiro needs to be the main dps legend for power rev while glint should take second. Currently Jalis is top and If Jalis and Shiro become the two top dps legends, then the rotation will literally just be swapping between them and using the up-keeps till out of energy which is very dull. Glint has potential to be a bit more interesting. Malyx and Ventari are in good spots in regards to their intended role matching their actual role. Kalla is a mess in general and just needs major quality of life changes.

Jalis: Currently Jalis is supposed to be the "tank" legend for revenant yet it is actually the highest dps power legend for the class because of the hammers.

Vengeful hammer damage reduced by 33% and upkeep cost reduced to -5. They are quite strong adding a lot of sustain while doing pretty significant damage. Reducing the energy cost allows you to afford to do a bit more while the hammers are up while not hurting the sustain they give.

Forced Engagement: Remove the cool-down. Pretty underwhelming skill in general high cd doesn't make sense. Should also reveal like other tether skills though wouldn't make much difference since taunt counters stealth already to an extent.

Inspiring Reinforcement: Good skill since it gets immediate stability now. Reduce cd to 5 seconds to match the duration of the road or remove it entirely. 30 energy cost is plenty to not need the cd.

Rite of the Great Dwarf: Rev seems to be king of stunbreaks that have a cast time for no real reason and this is the worst case with a massive 1.25 second cast time. In addition to being easily interrupted, this skill is pretty underwhelming amounting to being slightly stronger version of protection with a massive energy cost. Either duration needs to go up, cast time needs to go down (maybe to zero) or energy cost needs to go down dramatically.

Malyx: Malyx is a good model for rev legends where none of the skills have cd's they are all purely gated by energy. Malyx has good damage, but has trouble surviving with pain absorption being its one survival tool.

Pain absortion: Another stun break with a cast time; remove the cast time since it is unnecessary, Duration of base resistance increased to 3 seconds while the resistance per transferred condition is reduced to .5s. Right now the only way to get good up-time on resistance is to be in a team fight. In this setting if you pull conditions from 2 allies you get the same amount of resistance as before. If you pull from fewer allies you get more than before, and if you pull from more allies you get less. This allows malyx to survive better against condi builds in solo situations while toning down its ability to maintain perma resistance in team fights.

Shiro: Shiro has been stated as the power dps legend however it fails in this role in organized pve because its only damage increase is from quickness which all competent groups already have permanently with chronos or firebrands.

Phase Traversal: Cool-down removed, 35 energy is more than enough to make this no longer spamable. Also unlike other teleport to target skills (even ones with cast times like infiltrator strike and symbol of blades) this skill consumes energy and goes on full cool-down if there is no valid path to target. This is probably because the short rush at the start of the animation triggers the energy consumption before the teleport has been confirmed. Please remove this rush, or do something so that a failed port doesn't consume energy (or go on cool-down if you don't remove it).

Impossible Odds: Needs to be a unique buff instead of quickness. Making it act similar to one wolf pack would be thematically much closer to Shiro's original version of this skill.Adding a small condi removal to the initial cast would also be fitting to the orignial skill while perhaps still not being too op.

Ventari: Can heal a lot but the table mechanic is very clunky in any kind of fights where people aren't stacked super tight or are moving eratically.

Ventari's Will: Cool-down reduced to 2 seconds

Natural Harmony: Radius increased to 360.

Purifying Essence: Energy reduced to 20, cooldown reduced to 2 seconds, radius increased to 360.

Protective Solace: Too expensive for what it gives but can't be made cheaper otherwise the bubble up time gets ridiculous against projectile heavy enemies. So in addition to current effects it also gives a small heal overtime to targets within it so you can have decent projectile defense without giving up almost all healing.

Glint: Some people hate this legend but I like it a lot since it gives the most options of other legends where you can either not use the facet to save energy, use the facets for buffs, or use the facet actives while giving up the option for the buffs, all options are viable depending on the situation.

Facet of Elements/Elemental Blast: A good skill, could be a good place to add some more damage for pve such as adding a 4th pulse at the end that doesn't inflict a condition but does a bit extra damage akin to 100 blades. The current animation even lasts a bit longer than the current 3 pulses so this change would make sense.

Facet of strength: The might stacking it gives is pretty weak to warrant -2 upkeep so reduce to -1. The idea of having it inflict high stacks of vulnerability so that following attacks hit harder is cool but vulnerability is already permanently capped in all relevant pve encounters making it irrelevant which is the same problem impossible odds has. Change it so that hitting a target with each hit increases damage by say 15% for 5 seconds afterward so if you hit with both strikes it is +30% damage. This will give rev some burst which it has been desperately lacking compared to the meta power builds.

Facet of Chaos/Chaotic release: Good skill awesome animation.

Kalla: I never liked the concept of this legend and its implementation was just as disappointing but going to try to make it less terrible in pvp scenarios.

All summons either need to be invulnerable or at least have dramatically higher health and stability on summon.

Razor Claw's Rage: Icd needs to be per target. as it is currently it is only good when you have several allies attacking a single target which stays in the area for a long time, basically exclusively usable against pve bosses. Making the icd per target gives it some reasonable bite in team fights, while not affecting golem dps.

Icerazor's Ire: Needs to have chill somewhere, it is in the name, and it looks like he is throwing snowballs at his enemies, he needs some chill. Perhaps it would be too strong with abyssal chill if it was on every impact as that would be up to 40 stacks of torment + more from rampant vex but the number of hits could reasonably be toned down to say 10. Besides that it is yet another AOE skill that does less damage to each target when there are more targets within it (another thing that rev seems to be king of) making each projectile pierce or cleave surrounding area on impact might help with that.

Darkrazor's Daring: Probably the best of the utility skills, but another stunbreak with a cast time for no reason. Remove cast time and it is ok.

Soulcleave's Summit: 1 Second cast time is huge for this skill, same with the + 9 upkeep on top of 10 energy for activation cost. I would reduce the cast time to 1/2 second and upkeep to +8 as a start.

TRAITS

Corruption: I generally feel like there aren't any horrible traits in the corruption line, but none of them are really all that interesting either, so I can't give too much feedback, especially since I am not a condi fan in general.

Demonic Defiance: Removed the icd which is just annoying to keep track of and should be unnecessary due to energy cost. Perhaps reduce duration to 1.5 or 1 second to keep resistance uptime from getting too out of hand.

Bolstered Anguish: Made into +3% condition damage per condition on you since corruption is nearly always only used with condi builds.

Maniacal Persistence: Should probably tone down the duration of the self inflicted torment to 3-4 seconds.6 seconds before extra duration is quite likely to out last whatever resistance you have, and then do quite a bit of damage to your self. Icd is also unnecessary I believe.

Devastation: Another solid line that works well with most builds with multiple viable traits in master and grand master tier.

Ferocious strikes is just out classed by vicious lacerations unless you are running mace at which point 150 ferocity is pretty meh. I would like to see it changed to fit in with the life siphon theme of the trait line so changing it to something along the lines of life siphons are 30% more effective will dual wielding. Less damage then vicious lacerations but a bit more sustain.

Dismantle Fortifications is a horrible trait.in its current form without any real purpose in any game mode. To keep the same flavor and make it not totally useless I would have it just remove all stability, maybe an icd but rev doesn't have much for spamable cc other than darkrazor's daring and renegade is garbage in pvp.

Invocation: Generally solid line that can be used in any kind of build.

Cleansing channel: Increased to 2 conditions removed per swap. Rev is way too weak to conditions as it currently is.

Forceful persistence: Changed to grant 1% extra damage per point of upkeep. Just a bit clearer and intuitive way to word the trait, would be a small damage buff in most cases.

Invocation master tier no longer has any traits that increase dps in a raid setting so I think spirit boon could be re-replaced since no one likes it. Bringing equilibrium back would make many people happy but it wouldn't synergize with forceful persistence so it would only help pvp power rev. Perhaps bringing back equilibrium in reverse would make sense in that you get the damage while swapping below the health threshold and healing while above. perhaps lower the health threshold to 10 or 20 so the damage isn't a given to get every time.

Song of the Mists: I would normalize the damage for all the damage dealing ones up to the same damage as for demon.

Charged Mists: The 10 energy threashold can be a pain to get on some legends such as kala and at times glint. Would increase it to 20 or 25. Another interesting idea for it would be to make legend swapping add 50 energy to the current energy pool rather than being reset. So if you swap at 40 energy you go into the new legend with 90 but if you swap at 0 you just go back to 50 like normal, gives incentive to save energy.

Retribution: I do not like this line, almost all the traits are passive and the only real reason it was ever used was because of the minor that grants stability on dodge. Would like to see some barrier added to this line since it is supposed to be the tanking line.

Improved Aggression: Added taunt nearby foes when you use a heal skill. Un-split between game modes. Taunt duration increase 25% everywhere. No one uses the trait in any game modes so no point in having it split.

Eye for an Eye: Removed from the game because it is annoying and anti-fun for everyone and replaced with Enhanced Bulwark from the herald line. Enhanced bulward only really synergizes with the retribution line and jalis so it doesn't really make any sense to be in herald.

Vicious Reprisal: Remove the might gain, rev has plenty of ways to gain might. Instead gain barrier when you gain retaliation. Iterate for how much is reasonable.

Versed in Stone: Remove the auto proc component and instead Cast Lesser Rite of the Great Dwarf (3s duration) on your self when you taunt a foe.

Steadfast Rejuvenation: Icd reduced to 1 second, maybe healing reduced a bit if necessary, but it is currently too low overall to be grand-master worthy.

Salvation: Too many traits require Ventari to be usable. Even ones like Blinding Truths which technically work with other legends, only work well with Ventari because of the super short cool-down on Ventari's Will, and because Ventari is pretty much the only way to heal allies (though Kalla also has some group healing now too).

Nourishing Roots: Renamed to Nourishing Avoidance new effect is blocking or evading an attack heals your self and nearby allies for some amount. The gives a decent option in the adept tier for non Ventari builds that just want some extra sustain.

Tranquil Benediction: Replaced with Bolster Fortifications from the herald line. Bolster fortifications only really works well with Ventari and I think the healing packets should be removed from staff anyways as they aren't reliable or effective.

Eluding Nullification: Removed icd. It is already restricted by endurance and rev doesn't really even have any vigor so no point in this restriction.

Natural Abundance: Now releases energy fragments when using any legendary stance skills.

Momentary Pacification: Removed the icd, reduced the delay to 1 second. Currently it is just a very bad version of ancient seeds.

Selfless Amplification: Additionally staff skills heal for 25% more.

Herald: Traits are all out of balance with each other with nearly all revenants taking shared empowerment and elder's force because the other traits in the tier are underwhelming. Master and adept tiers both offer opportunities for dps increases since all traits in those tiers are either for utility or support.

Hardening Persistence: If other changes are implemented and power rev damage is still too low, hardening persistence can easily be changed from granting toughness to granting power for a reasonable dps increase.

Bolster Fortifications has been moved to Salvation, a replacement idea would be to have gain
10% increased damage to foes inflicted by both chilled and burning giving trying to emphasize the theme of fire and ice glint has.

Soothing Bastion: Auto proc crystal hibernation was disliked and annoying for everyone. Wielding a shield now grants 150 concentration and shield skills remove 2 conditions on use.

Enhanced Bulwark has been moved to retribution, new trait could do something like gain barrier whenever you activate a facet.

Facet of Nature: Increase the target cap for this buff to 10 people. As it stands this is a decent group buff, however it greatly suffers from its 5 target cap since generally only a few members of each raid group actually benefit from extra boon duration and they are all typically spread out among different subgroups so you can't get get the buff to the people who need it without doubling up on heralds, but herald damage is too low to be worth doing. Currently several buffs have been brought up from 5 target to 10 target because they were so strong that almost all groups would stack classes and double up on each one. In the case for FoN it would be raising up a buff that is too weak to bother using when it only affects half the raid group but might be worth considering taking if it affects the whole group.

Renegade: The only thing that renegade sort of has going for it in pvp is the trait line. I am not going to suggest many changes as I think most of the traits are well balanced relative to each other with no obviously horrible ones and no obviously superior ones.

Vindication: This grand master trait is quite underwhelming compared to the others. All it does is increase damage but falls behind lasting legacy in most situations. Perhaps making the might gain affect nearby allies would make it the support option of the 3 grand masters.

Citadel Orders: I don't have much to say about them, they are basically a random smorgasbord of ideas thrown together to make up the elite spec mechanic with very little rhyme or reason. I guess heroic command was added I guess to make the f skills have some interaction with kalla's fervor, citadel bombardment I guess just copies the charr racial skill artillery barrage, and then throw in random alacrity because people like alacrity. Would be nice to have some kind of cohesion and purpose behind these skills. Also why would they go and make citadel bombardment work just like meteor shower and ice storm after all of the problems they have had trying to balance those skills? Makes little sense to me.

WEAPONS

Sword Main-Hand: Precision strike should have all projectiles focus the selected target. Right now having the projectiles go off attacking the sky and rocks and boxes is just annoying and having to stand inside the enemies hit box to get good damage out of it most of the time is dumb.

Unrelenting assault looks like a skill that would be great against many enemies but ultimately just gets its damage horribly diluted the more targets there are. Having it do at least some cleave damage in an aoe around each strike would allow it to scale a little better in larger fights.

Mace: Can't complain about it too much since echoing eruption targeting was fixed. Since it doesn't really have any defenses, cc, or mobility on a melee set it could definitely use something like a cripple on the 3 skill so it can stick to targets or kite a bit better when in trouble.

Shield, Axe, Sword Off-Hand: The three off-hand weapons are all pretty reasonably balanced between each other.The biggest problem is that right now sword and axe are too similar in what they offer with shield being the only unique one. I would like to see sword get duelist's preparation back giving core rev an off-hand with some defense once again. For sword 5 I would like to see a hybrid between the old sword 5 and the new one; new sword 5 shadow step through the mists to your target then pull them backwards to your original location. This would allow a good distinction between what sword offers and what axe offers with sword being more about the enemy coming to you while axe is about going out to get them.

Staff: The problem with staff is it really doesn't function well as a healing weapon to pair with Ventari.

Staff 1 healing packets should be removed and just replaced with a plain pbaoe heal at the end of the chain similar to guardian's mace, this is a boring change and not unique, but ultimately the packets are too random in where they landed and the healing was negligible at best.

Renewing wave cast time should be reduced to 1/2 second; the heal is tiny and the cast time is massive on top of having energy cost, it is just excessive yet is still one of rev's precious few condi cleanses.

Staff 2 doesn't make any sense, you need to land a skill with a long cast time on a target that has to be using a skill in order to then gain access to a cc which actually can interrupt the skill you tried to land your non interrupting skill against. Instead make the first part of the chain be the cc with low damage, and then get access to the heavy hitting weakness skill if you interrupt your target.

Hammer: It is basically a pure wvw weapon but it is pretty great there. I generally like the hammer kit quite a bit but it could use some soft cc since it has no way to keep distance from enemies. I would add cripple to cor's closest impact. Drop the hammer cast time should be reduced to 1 second, the skill only works in wvw because people completely miss the animation in the chaos and decreasing the cast time wouldn't make much difference in that regard. In any small scale pvp drop the hammer is just too slow to land against competent players so speeding it up a bit would be nice. Also drop the hammer needs to not go on full cool-down and consume energy if interrupted.

Short Bow: The weapon with 4 slow clunky dps skills and no defense/utility other than a slow clunky cc, yet still doesn't really do that great of dps.

Sevenshot: needs to be reworked into something totally new or at least be able to adjust the range of the focal point. Right now it just gets ruined by basically everything that isn't a stationary target at exactly 900 range on flat terrain. Reworked skill would be a good place to add some much needed survivability with some mobility or an evade (hopefully not a clone of thief and ranger short bow 3's).

Spirit Crush: should be able to be fired at targets behind the rev like combustive shot, symbol of energy, cluster bomb, etc.

That went on for a while I am sure there are things people will disagree with and some people will have some other suggestions so we can have a discussion on these things.

Comments

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited December 2, 2017

    Some recomendations.
    We put Enhanced Bullwark in Retribution,but we move Sudden Reversal from Renegade to where Enhanced Bulwark was in the Herald traitline. That should help Power Rev a lot in PvP....but I think the PvP version should have the Knockdown effect removed....condis+boons+guaranteed cc on legend swap seems a little excesive for Herald, despite being already possible (because Power Renegade can only take Sudden Reversal from the Master tier).

    Also I am one of the few people who are fine with Might Generation outside of Devastation traitline,simply because having Might generating outside of Devastation opens more build variations for Condi Rev and Support Rev,who shouldn't be forced into Devastation because it would be their only source of Might Generation.

    For Sword Offhand I would like for Precision Strike (a bug free version of the current one) and Deathstrike to swap places within the sword kit. The reason for this change is to have off hand sword to be the PvE weapon for Aoe burst damage and Sword Main Hand for single target damage, with sword 3 having a target cap instead of cleave damage so it can dub as a utility skill rather than a offensive skill (during Hot,most Rev's I fought used Sword 3 as a dodge+might stack mechanic).

    For Renegade,Vindication should just change Bombardament to Spiritcrush, and have the former skill replaced with some sort of defensive skill.Also,Dismantle Fortification (as it is),has a place on Renegade,due to the existance of SB 5 and Ashen Demeneanor.

    I also advocate that all Revenant elite specializations should give us access to 2 weapons+ extra legends,simply because we are to limited in terms of weapon skills and utility combinations.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just speaking in generalities, Jalis, I think reducing energy will be much better than reducing CDs. CDs are not the main issue for Jalis.

    Mallyx/corruption, I think that resistance should be removed from the game. It is such a stupid design. This will result in several mallyx traits being change.

    Shiro, I would like them to remove the bonus 10% damage from impossible odds and make it a standard after using a shiro skill. Not much to change here otherwise.

    Glint, shield 5 and the Auto shield 5 trait need rework. Removing condi on shield use would be great.

    Renegade.. without major rework of several traits, f-skills and SB (basically everything) it will remain nothing more than damage multiplier bonus to for raids with no viability anywhere else.

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I was going to make a thread but since you brought up how silly Ferocious Strikes is, I'll add it here instead. Personally I'd just change the requirement to two handed weapons instead of duel wielding. That way we actually have a good first tier trait to take on backline revs in Devastation.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Flauvious.6195Flauvious.6195 Member ✭✭✭

    Renegade and short bow is such a wreck. Literally everything has a cast time, feels horrible. Every short bow ability is hilariously delayed and slow. Every Kalla ability is "take 3/4 of a second to place a char here who does a thing in a circle. Oh, we need more so here's 3 random f skills that do things we think should be in the kit." Lamest Pof elite by far.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 3, 2017

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Ventari: Can heal a lot but the table mechanic is very clunky in any kind of fights where people aren't stacked super tight or are moving eratically.

    Ventari's Will: Cool-down reduced to 2 seconds

    Natural Harmony: Radius increased to 360.

    Purifying Essence: Energy reduced to 20, cooldown reduced to 2 seconds, radius increased to 360.

    Protective Solace: Too expensive for what it gives but can't be made cheaper otherwise the bubble up time gets ridiculous against projectile heavy enemies. So in addition to current effects it also gives a small heal overtime to targets within it so you can have decent projectile defense without giving up almost all healing.

    As someone that loves AND hates ventrai. what i would personally do:

    Change the tablet functionality completely. When you swap into Ventari the tablet ISN'T summoned. You are able to use the 7, 8 and 9 skills still but the effects happen around yourself instead. You still get the Project Tranquility effect, it happens again around yourself with some skills working slightly differently. When you use the the heal skill (Ventari's Will) the Tablet will be summoned the passive heal and the effects from the 7, 8 and 9 now happen on the tablet instead of the player. The Elite skill is now available to use.

    Protective Solace:
    Tablet use: Summon a protective barrier around the Tablet that REFLECTS projectiles. Upkeep cost reduced -5. Cool down 5seconds
    Player Use: Summon a protective Barrier around the player that DESTROYS projectiles. Upkeep cost increased to -10. Cool down 5seconds. The Barrier stays around the player even when moving.

    Natural Harmony:
    Tablet Use: Same as before. Healing slightly increased.
    Player use: No delay time. Healing slightly reduced

    Purifying Essence:
    Tablet Use: Conditions removed increased to 6. Cool down increased to 8seconds
    Player use: Conditions removed 3. Healing done Increased.

    Energy Explosion:
    Tablet Use: No change.
    Player use: Not active.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Kalla: I never liked the concept of this legend and its implementation was just as disappointing but going to try to make it less terrible in pvp scenarios.

    All summons either need to be invulnerable or at least have dramatically higher health and stability on summon.

    Razor Claw's Rage: Icd needs to be per target. as it is currently it is only good when you have several allies attacking a single target which stays in the area for a long time, basically exclusively usable against pve bosses. Making the icd per target gives it some reasonable bite in team fights, while not affecting golem dps.

    Icerazor's Ire: Needs to have chill somewhere, it is in the name, and it looks like he is throwing snowballs at his enemies, he needs some chill. Perhaps it would be too strong with abyssal chill if it was on every impact as that would be up to 40 stacks of torment + more from rampant vex but the number of hits could reasonably be toned down to say 10. Besides that it is yet another AOE skill that does less damage to each target when there are more targets within it (another thing that rev seems to be king of) making each projectile pierce or cleave surrounding area on impact might help with that.

    Darkrazor's Daring: Probably the best of the utility skills, but another stunbreak with a cast time for no reason. Remove cast time and it is ok.

    Soulcleave's Summit: 1 Second cast time is huge for this skill, same with the + 9 upkeep on top of 10 energy for activation cost. I would reduce the cast time to 1/2 second and upkeep to +8 as a start.

    Kalla just sucks at the moment. Given that you can move OUT of the AoE i think they should be non-targetable straight off.
    I would agree with most of the skill changes. Maybe give Darkrazer pulsing stability for allies inside the radius would be welcome.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    TRAITS

    Corruption: I generally feel like there aren't any horrible traits in the corruption line, but none of them are really all that interesting either, so I can't give too much feedback, especially since I am not a condi fan in general.

    Demonic Defiance: Removed the icd which is just annoying to keep track of and should be unnecessary due to energy cost. Perhaps reduce duration to 1.5 or 1 second to keep resistance uptime from getting too out of hand.

    Bolstered Anguish: Made into +3% condition damage per condition on you since corruption is nearly always only used with condi builds.

    Maniacal Persistence: Should probably tone down the duration of the self inflicted torment to 3-4 seconds.6 seconds before extra duration is quite likely to out last whatever resistance you have, and then do quite a bit of damage to your self. Icd is also unnecessary I believe.

    While there arent many horrible traits, there are many that just arent worth taking.

    Replenishing Despair: Changed mechanic. You are healed when YOU apply a condition. The ICD removed. The Heal adjusted to compensate but with solid healing Power scaling so that you can build it as a sustain option

    Demonic Defiance: Its okay, the 5second ICD i think needs to be reduced. Not removed. Make it so its a 2second cool down.

    Venom Enhancement: Reduce cool down to 5seocnds.

    Opportune Extraction: Reduce the cool down to 5seconds.

    Bolstered Anguish: I agree with this change. Makes little sense that its a POWER based increased in a CONDITION line.

    Abyssal Chill: Its fine.

    Spontaneous Destruction: Its fine. Very solid skill.

    Diabolic Inferno: Its fine.

    Maniacal Persistence: This trait is TERRIBLE. As a class with DREADFUL anti conditions, why would you WANT to put more on yourself. Decrease the self duration. Make it so that Torment you apply deals increased damage.

    Pulsating Pestilence: Change it so that it TRANSFERS conditions instead of copying them. Make it conditions.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Invocation: Generally solid line that can be used in any kind of build.

    Cleansing channel: Increased to 2 conditions removed per swap. Rev is way too weak to conditions as it currently is.

    Forceful persistence: Changed to grant 1% extra damage per point of upkeep. Just a bit clearer and intuitive way to word the trait, would be a small damage buff in most cases.

    Invocation master tier no longer has any traits that increase dps in a raid setting so I think spirit boon could be re-replaced since no one likes it. Bringing equilibrium back would make many people happy but it wouldn't synergize with forceful persistence so it would only help pvp power rev. Perhaps bringing back equilibrium in reverse would make sense in that you get the damage while swapping below the health threshold and healing while above. perhaps lower the health threshold to 10 or 20 so the damage isn't a given to get every time.

    Song of the Mists: I would normalize the damage for all the damage dealing ones up to the same damage as for demon.

    Charged Mists: The 10 energy threashold can be a pain to get on some legends such as kala and at times glint. Would increase it to 20 or 25. Another interesting idea for it would be to make legend swapping add 50 energy to the current energy pool rather than being reset. So if you swap at 40 energy you go into the new legend with 90 but if you swap at 0 you just go back to 50 like normal, gives incentive to save energy.

    I would agree that Invocation is very solid. I disagree with bringing back Equilibrium, unless it was a heavily nerfed version, doing 5-8k+ damage just for swapping legend was a bit much. I would tweak a few things though:
    Cleansing Channel: Slightly changed. Conditions increased from 1 to 2 Depending on the legend that you swap to (would need ideas for a few as i dont use all the legends)
    Shiro: No idea
    Mallyx: The next attack transfers 2 conditions to your target
    Dwarf: Remove 2 conditions and grant yourself Barrier per condition removed
    Ventari: Remove 2 conditions and heal yourself per condition removed.

    Rapid Response: Remove the cool down

    Song of the Mists: Some good ones, some rubbish ones:
    Shiro: Fine
    Dwarf: Fine
    Mallyx: Needs something else. Maybe Chilled? Just needs something extra. Did think maybe adding Condition transfer 1 condition per a target hit would be welcome. Make it send damaging ones first
    Ventari: Pretty solid. Maybe slight increase on Healing Power scaling
    Glint: Too condition focused. Needs to be AoE boons or something. Maybe Regen, Aegis and Vigor for like 3seconds or something instead
    Kella: No idea. Seems lacking but dont know what would fit it

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Salvation: Too many traits require Ventari to be usable. Even ones like Blinding Truths which technically work with other legends, only work well with Ventari because of the super short cool-down on Ventari's Will, and because Ventari is pretty much the only way to heal allies (though Kalla also has some group healing now too).

    Nourishing Roots: Renamed to Nourishing Avoidance new effect is blocking or evading an attack heals your self and nearby allies for some amount. The gives a decent option in the adept tier for non Ventari builds that just want some extra sustain.

    Tranquil Benediction: Replaced with Bolster Fortifications from the herald line. Bolster fortifications only really works well with Ventari and I think the healing packets should be removed from staff anyways as they aren't reliable or effective.

    Eluding Nullification: Removed icd. It is already restricted by endurance and rev doesn't really even have any vigor so no point in this restriction.

    Natural Abundance: Now releases energy fragments when using any legendary stance skills.

    Momentary Pacification: Removed the icd, reduced the delay to 1 second. Currently it is just a very bad version of ancient seeds.

    Selfless Amplification: Additionally staff skills heal for 25% more.

    I do agree that it relies on Ventari a little too much, though it does kinda make sense, though lowering the requirements for it to be good without Ventari would be welcome.

    Blinding Truths DOES work with other Legends, its just nowhere near as strong due to 30second cool down Vs 2second cool down. Not sure what they could do to it, that would improve it for other legends without making it overpowered for Ventari though.

    Nourishing Roots: Not sure if you idea would work that well, it would weaken Ventari and wouldnt be that strong for others due to the lack of blocks and evades. It does need to be changed though. How about granting Regen for 3seconds when you are in melee range of an enemy has a 2second cool down, 2 second duration?

    Tranquil Benediction: I totally disagree with your change idea. As it works with ANY legend as it is, it just requires staff, which many people use anyway. It could use a tweak, rather than it being from picking up the orbs, i would rather it be granted from hitting with Rejuvenating Assault and make it an AoE around the target.

    Natural Abundance - Agree with this change

    Momentary Pacification: Reduce the cool down to 10seconds. Reduce the Immob to 2seconds.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Renegade: The only thing that renegade sort of has going for it in pvp is the trait line. I am not going to suggest many changes as I think most of the traits are well balanced relative to each other with no obviously horrible ones and no obviously superior ones.

    Vindication: This grand master trait is quite underwhelming compared to the others. All it does is increase damage but falls behind lasting legacy in most situations. Perhaps making the might gain affect nearby allies would make it the support option of the 3 grand masters.

    Citadel Orders: I don't have much to say about them, they are basically a random smorgasbord of ideas thrown together to make up the elite spec mechanic with very little rhyme or reason. I guess heroic command was added I guess to make the f skills have some interaction with kalla's fervor, citadel bombardment I guess just copies the charr racial skill artillery barrage, and then throw in random alacrity because people like alacrity. Would be nice to have some kind of cohesion and purpose behind these skills. Also why would they go and make citadel bombardment work just like meteor shower and ice storm after all of the problems they have had trying to balance those skills? Makes little sense to me.

    This one is hit and miss for me, its got some decent traits but at the same time, they still not as good as other legends.

    Blood Fury: Now increases all condition duration by 3% per a Kalla's Fervor
    Wrought-Iron Will: Now also grants Aegis for 3seconds
    All For one: This is just lazy, feels like the Herald trait. Changed so that each ability grants a different boon that pulses in its AoE Bastion: Grants Regen, Ire: Grants something, Rage grants: something, Daring grants: Stability, Soulcleave: Grants Might

    Vindication: When you gain Kalla's Favor You grant allies Might for 5seconds. 5 Targets
    Righteous Rebel: Condition damage is decreased by 10% per a stack of Kallas Fervor. Citadel Bombardment now has a 1,200 range. Orders from above grant 1second Superspeed and 1second quickness per a Callas Fervor but now you lose your stacks of Kalla's Ferver and gain a debuff that means you cant regain stacks for 10seconds

    Heartpircer- Same effect, change the Increased Bleeding duration to Increased Burning damage for each stack of Kella's Ferver (will make sense when you see Short bow changes)

    Citadel Orders: I totally agree. They just seem like they were picked at the last minute just for the sake of having them. What would i change them to? No idea. But they do need to be changed to feel like they belong. Heroic Command is pretty solid. Citadel Bombardment even with the trait SUCKS too high an energy cost, will barely hit anything, near useless unless you're zerging or farming mobs Orders from above just seems lazy and boring

    Citadel Bombardment: Increase the radius of the damaging bombs. Increase the damage the bo,bs do, decrease the energy cost from 35! down to 20

    Orders from above: make it so that Alacrity is gained per a stack of Kellas Ferver.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    WEAPONS
    Mace: Can't complain about it too much since echoing eruption targeting was fixed. Since it doesn't really have any defenses, cc, or mobility on a melee set it could definitely use something like a cripple on the 3 skill so it can stick to targets or kite a bit better when in trouble.

    Mace i would agree, its pretty solid. Not sure if it should be given mobility as it will always be paired with Axe which has mobility.

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Staff: The problem with staff is it really doesn't function well as a healing weapon to pair with Ventari.

    Staff 1 healing packets should be removed and just replaced with a plain pbaoe heal at the end of the chain similar to guardian's mace, this is a boring change and not unique, but ultimately the packets are too random in where they landed and the healing was negligible at best.

    Renewing wave cast time should be reduced to 1/2 second; the heal is tiny and the cast time is massive on top of having energy cost, it is just excessive yet is still one of rev's precious few condi cleanses.

    Staff 2 doesn't make any sense, you need to land a skill with a long cast time on a target that has to be using a skill in order to then gain access to a cc which actually can interrupt the skill you tried to land your non interrupting skill against. Instead make the first part of the chain be the cc with low damage, and then get access to the heavy hitting weakness skill if you interrupt your target.

    Im a big fan of the staff, it has issues but nothing bats bashing someone over the head with a staff :)

    what i would do:

    Rejuvenating Assault: Remove the healing orbs. You now heal allies around your target when you hit with this attack, healing increased to counter the lost potential healing from 2 orbs Vs 1 heal

    Warding Rift: I kinda wish this skill reflected projectiles back at the person that fired them instead of around you.

    Renewing Wave: Decrease the cast time down to 1/4second or down to 1/2 with a slight increase to the healing done

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    Short Bow: The weapon with 4 slow clunky dps skills and no defense/utility other than a slow clunky cc, yet still doesn't really do that great of dps.

    Sevenshot: needs to be reworked into something totally new or at least be able to adjust the range of the focal point. Right now it just gets ruined by basically everything that isn't a stationary target at exactly 900 range on flat terrain. Reworked skill would be a good place to add some much needed survivability with some mobility or an evade (hopefully not a clone of thief and ranger short bow 3's).

    Spirit Crush: should be able to be fired at targets behind the rev like combustive shot, symbol of energy, cluster bomb, etc.

    That went on for a while I am sure there are things people will disagree with and some people will have some other suggestions so we can have a discussion on these things.

    A good idea for a weapon but it just feels lacking to other short bows, in many ways.

    Shattershot: Increased direct damage, Change the Bleeding to 3seconds of Burning
    Bloodbane Path: Firstly it needs to be fixed so that it will actually HIT someone. I would then change the Bleeding to Torment
    Sevenshot: I would decrease the focal point of the attack, but make the arrows still go 900 distance. Or maybe, rather than a moving directional ability. Change it to a target one, that no matter the distance (excluding out of range) that it will make the hits all hit that target
    Spiritcrush: Fix no line of sight issues (firing behind) and fix no valid path issues (it hates cliffs and heights)

    Other than that it coudl do with tweaks to improve its damage and threat.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    I was going to make a thread but since you brought up how silly Ferocious Strikes is, I'll add it here instead. Personally I'd just change the requirement to two handed weapons instead of duel wielding. That way we actually have a good first tier trait to take on backline revs in Devastation.

    Actually you makes a good point I didn't think of that there are no good traits in the tier unless you have a sword, and no traits that do anything if you use 2 handed weapons or mace shield aside from the downed state trait. It would be nice to replace the downed jade winds trait but every class has a downed trait and that one is actually relatively good so I don't see that happening. That means the third trait really should not be weapon specific at all, or at least vicious lacerations needs to work for more than just sword.

  • Exalted Quality.8534Exalted Quality.8534 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 18, 2017

    Since ANET seems intent on cramming alacrity down revs throats (even though no one ever asked for it), they need to allow legend swapping to be affected by alacrity and improve some legend swapping mechanics (mainly energy). They’ve removed equilibrium from the game, so it’s not like this would be unbalanced or anything. Even if they brought equilibrium back (they won’t), I’m pretty sure it had a 10s icd on it anyways.

    If warriors berserk cooldowns are reduced by alacrity, revs legend swapping should be too...especially because revs generate alacrity and have very little use for it.

    Generally speaking, I think rev would be a lot more gratifying to play if ANET devs stopped forcing team support roles. Case in point, Kalla’s bleeding spirit and elite are next to useless when soloing, but pretty good if you have 5 people in the area....but don’t get me started on how terrible Kalla is...

  • Malachi.1836Malachi.1836 Member ✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    @otto.5684 said:
    Just speaking in generalities, Jalis, I think reducing energy will be much better than reducing CDs. CDs are not the main issue for Jalis.

    Mallyx/corruption, I think that resistance should be removed from the game. It is such a stupid design. This will result in several mallyx traits being change.

    Glint, shield 5 and the Auto shield 5 trait need rework. Removing condi on shield use would be great.

    Renegade.. without major rework of several traits, f-skills and SB (basically everything) it will remain nothing more than damage multiplier bonus to for raids with no viability anywhere else.

    Just started playing revenant after years of ele, ranger and necro (power necro necro for years before reaper, then wrapped it up after power reaper was trashcanned) and actually found renegade far more enjoyable of a playstyle than all of the new builds offered. Granted its inclusion of alacricity and AOE buffs is beneficial in wvw and roaming with classes with high cooldowns the worst portion of the new addon is that the core traits brought by renegade are only usefull if you completely remove Kallis from your legendary swap and play it entirely differently than what the devs originally saw for the addon.

    As far as mallyx and coprruption go, rev is on the short end of the stick when it comes to a highly condi prevalent meta, the last patched helped somewhat but for any rev to survive any condi burst whatsoever they have to either do one of two things, run ventari for short burst cleanses and counter dps at good timing, or run herald and hope to kill them before condis melt you. Mallyx was originally the solution to this, however in their haste to make condis more bursty than originally should have been intended and the new addon of rampant amounts of boon strip;' resistance is a cop-out solution. Resistance should be like superspeed, or be stackable like old stability without having an ungodly linger time (so as to not completely remove an entire playstyle in the form of condi builds). Ideally, It should not be easily removed and the superspeed like boon status, but it also shouldnt be allowed to have such a high amount of upkeep and be so easily spread in groups. Resistance as a superspeed like boon could be beneficial to all classes with it and could be balanced by reducing overall time of abilitites that give it. Two seconds of overall resistance (even attach a revealed like status to the caster to prevent readding with a certain timeframe if worst comes to worst, ideally allowing mallyx to bypass this limit if enough condis are pulled) would be enough to reduce pure burst duration and should give any class enough time to remove some condi amount or at least the highly damaging ones (assuming priority in condi clear even exist).

    The one solution above of turning the pulsating pestilence to a condi clear/transfer could also work as a a deterant however I dont believe it would be enough of a clear to prevent burst, as most heavy condi classes can easily negate a 3 group clear every 10 seconds.

    However as far as the f skills go for renegade they are no where near unusable, renegade gave power builds a reliable way to stack might without having to spec into shiro or glint through the use of heroic command and allows for a constant upkeep of might (15-20 based on runechoice) as well as a free 250 ferocity which is easily obtained on a power rev , not to mention a flat 15% damage increase for condi users with kallis strikes + might upkeep. The only point I agree with is citadel bombardment as it is highly random and only good in condi builds. Just by decreasing the targeting area and allowing for more strikes to hit with its high energy cost should be a reliable form of dps for condi builds without being completely useless for power builds (still wouldnt be used but not every new skill should be both condi/power). The alacricity buff from Orders from above is amazingly usefull as it targets one of the most glaring issues revenant has with new powercreep, long long heal timers. Ventari tablet has great access to heals but they require far more work for a slower time gated gain, mallyxs heal is amazingly good but becomes lackluster with boon corrupt in the current meta, and shiros heal is great for counter dps but has no way to prevent an inevitable death at the hand of literally every other class on the planet. Alacricity allows for faster burst heals but a decrease in heal recast time for certain heals would do wonders for overall viability. Shiro base heal could be increased to benefit from healing power (recast time not being modified as the damage potential in good builds makes up for recast), jallis and mallyx however should have recast cut to 25 seconds, with little to no modification of skill themselves (this would allow alacricty to give them good heals in line with other classes but also buff non renegade revenants with much needed surviability). Revenant is in the same line as guardian in being slow moving, yet has none of the survivability the guardian has with all of its elite specs, it has greater mobility but at the cost of targeting.

    Finally allow alacricity to affect legend swapping, or create additional skills for each legend that are able to be swapped in builds. The revenant is a fun build to play, and a renegade is rare to find in either pvp or wvw. I enjoy the challenge of playing it

  • Rasp Sabreblade.5421Rasp Sabreblade.5421 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 20, 2017

    just put a trait in Invocation to reduce legend swap - since invocation means to invoke and isn't that what we are doing?

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Malachi.1836 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Just speaking in generalities, Jalis, I think reducing energy will be much better than reducing CDs. CDs are not the main issue for Jalis.

    Mallyx/corruption, I think that resistance should be removed from the game. It is such a stupid design. This will result in several mallyx traits being change.

    Glint, shield 5 and the Auto shield 5 trait need rework. Removing condi on shield use would be great.

    Renegade.. without major rework of several traits, f-skills and SB (basically everything) it will remain nothing more than damage multiplier bonus to for raids with no viability anywhere else.

    The alacricity buff from Orders from above is amazingly usefull as it targets one of the most glaring issues revenant has with new powercreep, long long heal timers. Ventari tablet has great access to heals but they require far more work for a slower time gated gain, mallyxs heal is amazingly good but becomes lackluster with boon corrupt in the current meta, and shiros heal is great for counter dps but has no way to prevent an inevitable death at the hand of literally every other class on the planet. Alacricity allows for faster burst heals but a decrease in heal recast time for certain heals would do wonders for overall viability.

    Just going to focus on this snip but I think you are greatly overselling the value of the alacrity from Orders from Above. The base 6 seconds of alacrity only will only reduce the cool-down of the heal skills by a measly 2 seconds or 3 seconds if traited so the 30 second cooldown heals on all non-ventari legends only get reduced to 28 or 27 seconds. Because rev typically more restricted by energy than cool-downs, I don't see such a small reduction being worth the 20 energy cost unless you have spare energy to burn and nothing else to use it on or are in range of several allies who can benefit from it . And that is just to consider using it, in order to make it something that is actually important and meaningful and interesting enough to be worthy of being an elite spec mechanic, it really has a very long way to go.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Malachi.1836 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Just speaking in generalities, Jalis, I think reducing energy will be much better than reducing CDs. CDs are not the main issue for Jalis.

    Mallyx/corruption, I think that resistance should be removed from the game. It is such a stupid design. This will result in several mallyx traits being change.

    Glint, shield 5 and the Auto shield 5 trait need rework. Removing condi on shield use would be great.

    Renegade.. without major rework of several traits, f-skills and SB (basically everything) it will remain nothing more than damage multiplier bonus to for raids with no viability anywhere else.

    The alacricity buff from Orders from above is amazingly usefull as it targets one of the most glaring issues revenant has with new powercreep, long long heal timers. Ventari tablet has great access to heals but they require far more work for a slower time gated gain, mallyxs heal is amazingly good but becomes lackluster with boon corrupt in the current meta, and shiros heal is great for counter dps but has no way to prevent an inevitable death at the hand of literally every other class on the planet. Alacricity allows for faster burst heals but a decrease in heal recast time for certain heals would do wonders for overall viability.

    Just going to focus on this snip but I think you are greatly overselling the value of the alacrity from Orders from Above. The base 6 seconds of alacrity only will only reduce the cool-down of the heal skills by a measly 2 seconds or 3 seconds if traited so the 30 second cooldown heals on all non-ventari legends only get reduced to 28 or 27 seconds. Because rev typically more restricted by energy than cool-downs, I don't see such a small reduction being worth the 20 energy cost unless you have spare energy to burn and nothing else to use it on or are in range of several allies who can benefit from it . And that is just to consider using it, in order to make it something that is actually important and meaningful and interesting enough to be worthy of being an elite spec mechanic, it really has a very long way to go.

    Btw order from above is 25 energy which makes it worse 😞

    Ya, the alacrity is PvP = useless for rev. Most of the stuff is gated by energy..

  • Malachi.1836Malachi.1836 Member ✭✭
    edited December 21, 2017

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Malachi.1836 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Just speaking in generalities, Jalis, I think reducing energy will be much better than reducing CDs. CDs are not the main issue for Jalis.

    Mallyx/corruption, I think that resistance should be removed from the game. It is such a stupid design. This will result in several mallyx traits being change.

    Glint, shield 5 and the Auto shield 5 trait need rework. Removing condi on shield use would be great.

    Renegade.. without major rework of several traits, f-skills and SB (basically everything) it will remain nothing more than damage multiplier bonus to for raids with no viability anywhere else.

    The alacricity buff from Orders from above is amazingly usefull as it targets one of the most glaring issues revenant has with new powercreep, long long heal timers. Ventari tablet has great access to heals but they require far more work for a slower time gated gain, mallyxs heal is amazingly good but becomes lackluster with boon corrupt in the current meta, and shiros heal is great for counter dps but has no way to prevent an inevitable death at the hand of literally every other class on the planet. Alacricity allows for faster burst heals but a decrease in heal recast time for certain heals would do wonders for overall viability.

    Just going to focus on this snip but I think you are greatly overselling the value of the alacrity from Orders from Above. The base 6 seconds of alacrity only will only reduce the cool-down of the heal skills by a measly 2 seconds or 3 seconds if traited so the 30 second cooldown heals on all non-ventari legends only get reduced to 28 or 27 seconds. Because rev typically more restricted by energy than cool-downs, I don't see such a small reduction being worth the 20 energy cost unless you have spare energy to burn and nothing else to use it on or are in range of several allies who can benefit from it . And that is just to consider using it, in order to make it something that is actually important and meaningful and interesting enough to be worthy of being an elite spec mechanic, it really has a very long way to go.

    True, but I usually run with salvation traited for close to 70-80% uptime. But yes you are correct in testing the non-traited orders from above through use of shiro heal the six seconds of alacricity can take you from anywhere from 2-6 seconds of reduction without and with traits. However, overselling I dont think so as alacricity is also targeting recast timers on weapons as well (movement skills). Granted skill recast times should still be cut ( as we all agree energy is the limiting factor, ideally skill recasts are cut for heal timers and energy amounts on several skills need to be trimmed), but alacricity is one of the better boons for group support ( might and alacricity through f skills, trait for whichever is preffered ) save resistance

  • Manpag.6421Manpag.6421 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    Change the tablet functionality completely. When you swap into Ventari the tablet ISN'T summoned. You are able to use the 7, 8 and 9 skills still but the effects happen around yourself instead. You still get the Project Tranquility effect, it happens again around yourself with some skills working slightly differently. When you use the the heal skill (Ventari's Will) the Tablet will be summoned the passive heal and the effects from the 7, 8 and 9 now happen on the tablet instead of the player. The Elite skill is now available to use.

    I actually don't see why it can't work like Scourge shades do, with skill effects occurring both around the player and around the tablet. Obviously you only get the effect once if you're in range of both, else you'll get nigh-unkillable bunker builds, but it would make Ventari easier to use while also allowing a dedicated healer rev to keep themselves healed while still healing their team.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manpag.6421 said:

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:
    Change the tablet functionality completely. When you swap into Ventari the tablet ISN'T summoned. You are able to use the 7, 8 and 9 skills still but the effects happen around yourself instead. You still get the Project Tranquility effect, it happens again around yourself with some skills working slightly differently. When you use the the heal skill (Ventari's Will) the Tablet will be summoned the passive heal and the effects from the 7, 8 and 9 now happen on the tablet instead of the player. The Elite skill is now available to use.

    I actually don't see why it can't work like Scourge shades do, with skill effects occurring both around the player and around the tablet. Obviously you only get the effect once if you're in range of both, else you'll get nigh-unkillable bunker builds, but it would make Ventari easier to use while also allowing a dedicated healer rev to keep themselves healed while still healing their team.

    Because that would make revenant too useful silly!