Revamping Toughness. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Revamping Toughness.

STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

One of things that I sincerity hate about condition damage is that nothing affects it, nothing works to mitigate Condition damage, it has no stat that counters it like physical damage does.

So.. what I suggest is that Toughness, also mitigates condition damage as it does physical damage.

What ya all think?

There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

Comments

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zephyra.4709 said:
    You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

    Vitality works against both.. but it does not mitigate, it just gives you a larger pool to just take any kind of damage.

    See what makes conditions the problem with balance, is that there is no defensive stat against them. So.. if there we a defensive stat that worked against conditions, like say Toughness reducing their damage, they could be more easily balanced in WvW.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Zephyra.4709 said:
    You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

    Vitality works against both.. but it does not mitigate, it just gives you a larger pool to just take any kind of damage.

    See what makes conditions the problem with balance, is that there is no defensive stat against them. So.. if there we a defensive stat that worked against conditions, like say Toughness reducing their damage, they could be more easily balanced in WvW.

    Cleanse and resistance. The rate of condi spam though...

    BG

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Zephyra.4709 said:
    You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

    Vitality works against both.. but it does not mitigate, it just gives you a larger pool to just take any kind of damage.

    See what makes conditions the problem with balance, is that there is no defensive stat against them. So.. if there we a defensive stat that worked against conditions, like say Toughness reducing their damage, they could be more easily balanced in WvW.

    Cleanse and resistance. The rate of condi spam though...

    But are those analogous to blocks and protection?

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Zephyra.4709 said:
    You're better off in vitality gear. Toughness should mitigate physical power dmg and vitality should do the same against condition dmg.. at least in my books it would be an interesting change.

    Vitality works against both.. but it does not mitigate, it just gives you a larger pool to just take any kind of damage.

    See what makes conditions the problem with balance, is that there is no defensive stat against them. So.. if there we a defensive stat that worked against conditions, like say Toughness reducing their damage, they could be more easily balanced in WvW.

    Cleanse and resistance. The rate of condi spam though...

    But are those analogous to blocks and protection?

    Well again you have to look at the entire scope of things, and the guiding principle behind both types of builds. Power-high damage/high risk. Conditions-Damage over time. The sheer amount of conditions and spammability obliviously need to have some counter. We initially just had cleanses, but then resistance was added. You have a lot of counters to power already; invulns, protection, blocks, reflects, toughness/armor. Adding too many counters to conditions would make those builds less powerful, since they are supposed to be based on DoT not burst.

    Again though, the problem is poor balancing.

    BG

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not this conversation again... Vitality, Regeneration, Resistance, and cleansing/convert skills and traits are all counters and that isn't to mention that condis cannot be applied with certain invuln traits/skills.

  • There is no problem. Conditions are already too easy to mitigate.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    Not this conversation again...

    Yes this conversation again.. because we STILL have a problem.

    When we no longer have a problem.. we will no longer have this conversation again.

    When you start a thread claiming that there are no counters, no defensive stats against it, the conversation is already off to a bad start. You're not dealing with the reality of game mechanics when you make those claims. You asked what people think and that is what I think. I also think you aren't after balance, but after easy mode.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Condi-damage-mitigation-stat-needed/page/1#post6521603

    "I agree that they’ve taken condition damage over the top to make it compete with burst direct damage, that’s why Resistance was created. That isn’t to say though that there is no condition damage mitigation stat in the game. The trade-off for non-crit over-time damage was for Armor to be ignored. Some of the classes with low base HP pools were designed to have additional balance through heal bursts or, like thief, stealth.

    IMHO making condition damage subject to a second mitigation stat like Armor will continue to push this game further into easy mode territory."

    The problem you are seeking doesn't have anything to do with toughness and the damage calculations, but with the damage numbers on skills and traits.

  • JVJD.4912JVJD.4912 Member ✭✭✭

    Vitality is the original counter to condition damage
    Since its duration damage the more hp you had the longer you would survive which also helped mildly against power

    So yeah toughness should have a little rework , maybe reduce condition duration since you are so tough you could "shake it off" :P

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Shouldn't be on toughness.

    If you want to do this attach - Incoming condi duration to vitality as it's supposed to be the go to stat for handling conditions and toughness is meant to handle direct damage.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2017

    As long as it lessens the mitigation from physical damage sure. Those who run toughness... some of you don't seem to realize just how overbearing it is. A full zerker spec does very little damage to those running a lot of toughness. Kind of hard justifying running zerk as a high risk high reward spec, when there is all risk and no reward for such little damage. So if you want condition damage mitigated by toughness, then toughness in itself should be scaled back at minimum 50% against physical damage.

    There is a defense against conditions, it's called cleansing, and a player can only reapply conditions so fast, so paired with the right classes, conditions can be cleansed faster than reapplied. If you are getting lit up with conditions it's because you're getting hit with multiple condition classes at once, which is no different than getting hit by multiple physical damage classes at once. So in which case, those who argue conditions still get reapplied faster than you can cleanse, I'll counter with: physical damage is reapplied faster than I can heal, so physical damage needs to be reduced across the board.

    We're honestly better off with a separate attribute that reduces condition damage that does not sit on any gear with toughness or vitality. We can't have god bunker builds running around. Then, those who want to run the condition mitigation will have to sacrifice toughness and vitality to do so.

    The problem isn't conditions, the problem are the players themselves refusing to get on classes that can deal with the condition spammers. Lets be real here, when you are talking about condition spam, you're talking about scourge. Scourges have a very easy and hard counter with rangers and thieves, to the point one would have to look at nerfing both of them based on the scourge's vulnerability to them based on "people who still think we have a condition problem"

  • Klipso.8653Klipso.8653 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

    -Balwarc [ICoa]

  • Baldrick.8967Baldrick.8967 Member ✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    As long as it lessens the mitigation from physical damage sure. Those who run toughness... some of you don't seem to realize just how overbearing it is. A full zerker spec does very little damage to those running a lot of toughness. Kind of hard justifying running zerk as a high risk high reward spec, when there is all risk and no reward for such little damage. So if you want condition damage mitigated by toughness, then toughness in itself should be scaled back at minimum 50% against physical damage.

    There is a defense against conditions, it's called cleansing, and a player can only reapply conditions so fast, so paired with the right classes, conditions can be cleansed faster than reapplied. If you are getting lit up with conditions it's because you're getting hit with multiple condition classes at once, which is no different than getting hit by multiple physical damage classes at once. So in which case, those who argue conditions still get reapplied faster than you can cleanse, I'll counter with: physical damage is reapplied faster than I can heal, so physical damage needs to be reduced across the board.

    We're honestly better off with a separate attribute that reduces condition damage that does not sit on any gear with toughness or vitality. We can't have god bunker builds running around. Then, those who want to run the condition mitigation will have to sacrifice toughness and vitality to do so.

    The problem isn't conditions, the problem are the players themselves refusing to get on classes that can deal with the condition spammers. Lets be real here, when you are talking about condition spam, you're talking about scourge. Scourges have a very easy and hard counter with rangers and thieves, to the point one would have to look at nerfing both of them based on the scourge's vulnerability to them based on "people who still think we have a condition problem"

    Except some comms won't allow rangers or thiefs in to their squads, despite not being full and continually getting wiped by scourge bombing....

    I'd like to see some new stat that mitigates condition damage, as currently it's just crazy aoe spam condi damage that wipes players instantly (more or less) without any counter except stay away or hope resistance doesn't run out.

    Ideally I'd like legendary armor and weapons to just have a total number of points assigned to them, and then for you to be able to assign those points into any stat you want (with a hard cap of 218 or 250 in any one stat- whatever the current maximum is). That way I could build an armor set (not that I will ever get legendary armor, but this would encourage me to try!) with the stats I wanted. Say 200 pow, 100 tough, 100 vit, 100 condi reduction, 50 healing power or similar. Ascended armor stats could be changed at a vendor for a fee or in the forge where you would select the desired stats and enter the required materials.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 29, 2017

    @Chaba.5410 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Chaba.5410 said:
    Not this conversation again...

    Yes this conversation again.. because we STILL have a problem.

    When we no longer have a problem.. we will no longer have this conversation again.

    When you start a thread claiming that there are no counters, no defensive stats against it, the conversation is already off to a bad start. You're not dealing with the reality of game mechanics when you make those claims. You asked what people think and that is what I think. I also think you aren't after balance, but after easy mode.

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Condi-damage-mitigation-stat-needed/page/1#post6521603

    "I agree that they’ve taken condition damage over the top to make it compete with burst direct damage, that’s why Resistance was created. That isn’t to say though that there is no condition damage mitigation stat in the game. The trade-off for non-crit over-time damage was for Armor to be ignored. Some of the classes with low base HP pools were designed to have additional balance through heal bursts or, like thief, stealth.

    IMHO making condition damage subject to a second mitigation stat like Armor will continue to push this game further into easy mode territory."

    The problem you are seeking doesn't have anything to do with toughness and the damage calculations, but with the damage numbers on skills and traits.

    "easy mode" line is over used and pointless at this point in discussions. "Everything I don't like is Easy Mode" (AKA: I play an OP flavor of the Month Build, and don't like fair fights)

    Sorry.. but the exact problem is that condition does rival burst damage, so.. either condition would need to be Nerfed to the ground (Rivers of tears)

    Or some defensive stats should mitigate their damage to balance them out, like they do Burst damage.

    If Vitality had the added effect of reducing condition damage like Toughness does to Physical Damage.. I would be ok with that as a solution.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

    I could see that.or have it so that Vitality also reduces condition damage as well as increase total HP. That could work.. Nomads!

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • I'd prefer to see condition mitigation revamped and scale off Healing Power. Condition removals can remove a number of conditions based on your Healing Power or have a faster recharge speed. Resistance could have its effectiveness scale on Healing Power. This will force players to make a real choice in how they make their builds. You can build for almost full condition immunity, but you will have to sacrifice for it. There are quite a few builds out there that don't have to sacrifice much to be strong against condition builds.

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    Conditions always bypassed armour. They're conditions for a reason. It would make no sense for a condition to be mitigated by armour. Vitality is a perfect choice for conditions. Condition power is the problem. Lower that and you got no problem.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Inoki.6048 said:
    Conditions always bypassed armour. They're conditions for a reason. It would make no sense for a condition to be mitigated by armour. Vitality is a perfect choice for conditions. Condition power is the problem. Lower that and you got no problem.

    Just so we are clear.. your solution would be to nerf condition damage.

    The salty tears would be funny.. but I think that would go over worse then just having a stat that mitigates the damage.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:
    On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

    Well I guess if Burst damage stuck to me like a hemorrhoid, I'd expect Anet to put in a Burst damage cleanse.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • psizone.8437psizone.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd rather they lowered condition damage and have it be affected by precision + ferocity.

    You shouldn't be able to stack toughness + vitality and still have great damage.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:
    On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

    Well I guess if Burst damage stuck to me like a hemorrhoid, I'd expect Anet to put in a Burst damage cleanse.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365 said:
    On the other hand condi cleanses only work against condis, and not against burst dmg..

    Well I guess if Burst damage stuck to me like a hemorrhoid, I'd expect Anet to put in a Burst damage cleanse.

    exactly

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hp did not get buff in par with the dps buff to condi dmg untill they add in say condi crits your not going to see a combo deal with condi dmg alone. Crit dmg it self is the counter to toughness.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • If you are still dying to conditions in this meta, you are either:

    1) afk
    2) grossly outmanned (pure numbers usually outperforms player skill in larger zerg fights)
    3) using raid zerker gear & pure dps traits
    4) standing wonderfully exposed in a really bad position
    5) havent understood the condi mechanics & counters
    6) following an unexperienced commander / or, took a risk
    7) on the wrong team ;-)

    Not all professions can do it as easy as others, professions excell at different stuff, so be sure to bring a profession that can tackle that kind of heat.

    _/_ [SSSh] Secret Society Service _/_
    BG Since Season 1

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hugeboss.5432 said:
    Not all professions can do it as easy as others, professions excell at different stuff, so be sure to bring a profession that can tackle that kind of heat.

    Here is the problem folks... This is why there needs to a stat that counters Condi.. and not just "Play the right class"

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2017

    the counter to condi is team work. but to cast condi only.needs one unit. this is why it is hard.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    just bring back gw1 skill design to gw2 in 2018, both spvp and WvW will be good after that.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    the counter to condi is team work. but to cast condi only.needs one unit. this is why it is hard.

    Which again is why there should be a stat that counters it or mitigates it's damage. Not to mention by doing that.. the game can be balanced better by modifying the counter stat as opposed to just trying to nerf condi.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

    Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.
    Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

    To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.
    Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

    All boons can be removed.

    Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).
    Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

    They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.
    They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2017

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

    Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.
    Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

    To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.
    Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

    All boons can be removed.

    Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).
    Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

    They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.
    They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

    Toughnes cant be improved by just buffing it, imagine lots of bunker expect to be carried with boon stacking, bette rtoughness and some classes can still do damage while having high surviability,.. due how DUMB LamerNet has become to carry the players, since the game offers very low quality of mechanics.

    Crittical damage needs to start at 0 rather than 150%just like crit chance does.
    Unblockables need to affect skills that block only, reflections and absorption should still make their function against unblockables, add skills that cant be reflected and others that cant be absorved, or create traits for players choose what the skills effect should do.
    Boons need to stop being stacked, and where class balance and skill design is awfull, i dont expect this to change(Anet lost all its quality), but its the main reason game is awfully broken.
    Some boons need to be converted into their own mechanics, like stability was a stance in gw1 or a effect
    Conditions that needs to be tied to one specific class and be changed to hexes.

    • Torment - Tied to Necromancer class.
    • Confusion - Tied to mesmer class.
    • Taunt - Tied to warrior class.
    • Slow - Tied to Revenant and mesmer classes.

    ... And then i remmeber how dumb the classes on this game need to be for its players base awfull quality .... just look at scourges and firebrand, spellbreakers low effort skill deisgn that does the full counter alone w/o any knowledge or gameplay required, its like play a gw1 mesmer with cheats or a bot.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2017

    Direct damage crits. Because of that, it is divided by armor. You cannot mitigate damage that is dealt immediately and can be multiplied through critical hits any other way.

    Condition damage isn't multiplied by critical chance. It is damage over time, not all at once. There's no reason to divide the damage "per tick" when mitigation also occurs over time.

    It has always been true in this game that longer fights favor condition builds over power builds, even back when there was a cap on condi stacks pre-HoT, which is proper due to the over-time vs immediate nature of the two different damage types.

    So what is different? HoT brought more condi damage as burst and some of the new four-stat combos provide for riskier condition builds, but HoT also brought resistance - which completely negates damage per tick - and PoF brought more boon-stripping/conversion which was a boost to power builds. Then there's the recent balance patch that toned down condi burst. (And in WvW recently it has been very noticeable that if you want to do a lot of damage, you bring a power build, not a condi build.) Those things were not done by changing damage calculations, but by adjusting the skills and traits that apply conditions.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

    Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.
    Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

    To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.
    Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

    All boons can be removed.

    Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).
    Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

    They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.
    They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

    No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

    Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

    Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

    The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

  • I wish they would remove the free 1,000 power every profession has in its stat spread. If a build wants to go full condi and have all the toughness and vitality offered by trailblazers and dire, then they should not also be able to do direct damage of any significance. Traits like Diamond Skin for ele would actually be a hard counter to condi spam then.

  • psizone.8437psizone.8437 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shadowcat.2680 said:
    Traits like Diamond Skin for ele would actually be a hard counter to condi spam then.

    Hard counters aren't the way to go. Traits and skills that remove damage, condition or power, encourage lazy gameplay and should be replaced with optional damage mitigation (cleanses, blocks, damage reducions, evades).

    Lowered condition application and damage (from requiring precision + ferocity to maximise condition damage preferably) and reduced spike damage on some power skills is needed at the same time.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

    Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.
    Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

    To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.
    Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

    All boons can be removed.

    Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).
    Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

    They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.
    They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

    No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

    Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

    Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

    The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

    I don't think I could disagree with this more if I tried.

    There is should ALWAYS be a survival trade off for doing maxim damage no matter the source. There is no reason why doing optimal condition damage should not put a player at as much risk as doing optimal power damage.

    This is exactly what is wrong with the way the stats are laid out.

    I agree with the others. condition should be built around multiple stats just as power damage is.

    I also believe that we need stats that help mitigate condition damage just as we have stats that mitigate Power damage.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • atheria.2837atheria.2837 Member ✭✭✭

    @MachineManXX.9746 said:
    There is no problem. Conditions are already too easy to mitigate.

    That's baloney!

    When more than one person can condi spam, even with four skills that 'remove' condi (as traited in utilities) one is dead in less than five seconds.

    So what 'mitigation' are you talking about.

    And 'invulnerability' ? Have you looked up invuln and seen how few of us can bring about that protection?

    Condi has issues compared to power - and this conversation should get someone's attention that it isn't balanced by
    a long shot yet.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

    Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.
    Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

    To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.
    Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

    All boons can be removed.

    Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).
    Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

    They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.
    They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

    No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

    Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

    Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

    The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

    I don't think I could disagree with this more if I tried.

    There is should ALWAYS be a survival trade off for doing maxim damage no matter the source. There is no reason why doing optimal condition damage should not put a player at as much risk as doing optimal power damage.

    This is exactly what is wrong with the way the stats are laid out.

    I agree with the others. condition should be built around multiple stats just as power damage is.

    I also believe that we need stats that help mitigate condition damage just as we have stats that mitigate Power damage.

    i agree with you that condition builds should be glassier if they deal much damage, they are stronger in longer fights but with TB and dire they force longer fights wich puts them in favor.
    the problem is that we have too much counter play to conditions, thats why we wont get too many nerfs to it.
    you can evade/block/invuln power and condi damage, we got mainly thoughness and protection for power mitigation and cleanses and resistance for condi mitigation. cleanses and resistance are far more powerful in their mitigation potential then thoughness and protection, sure we got more sources for protection than resistance but in group you can keep up resistance wich forces the opponent to strip it, if they want to deal condition damage.

    id say condition builds should need more stats to get their damage and in return resistance should only affect non damaging conditions and cleanses made more specific like some of them cleansing non damaging conditions and some only damaging conditions to reduce RNG cleansing (there are few that already do that for example Shadows Embrace trait for thieves)

    read this, become a better player now.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2017

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Ubi.4136 said:
    I think they should make toughness more effective, but also they need to look at what affects each damage type.

    Power - needs both precision (chance to crit) and ferocity (crit damage %) to be super effective.
    Condition - yep, that's it. Expertise affects duration, but is not required with how much damage conditions hit for in the first few secs.

    To mitigate power you have aegis (block) and protection. Skills can be made unblockable. Toughness helps (some) against direct damage.
    Condition you have resistance. Cleanse can remove conditions, but most classes remove 1 at a time.

    All boons can be removed.

    Power builds do not generally have survival stats built into them cause you need 3 stats. No toughness, no vitality, less survival (for some classes).
    Condition builds have toughness and vitality since they only have to build offense on one stat (maybe 2 if you go for expertise).

    They need to add a stat like resilience that works like toughness on conditions.
    They need to rework the stat combinations that are available.

    No they do not NEED to rework stats so as to force Condition builds into using more offensive stats. It an option but is hardly the only way to address issues of balance.

    Again a POWER build does not HAVE to train three stats for its damage. It can if it wants to increase its damage. It has more options to do so as more stats are available so as to allow it. Ferocity and Precision do exponetially more to help a POWER build then they do a condition build and that in and of itself is an advantage in favor of power. It is how you can have a power build deal 10K+ damage in single attacks INSTANTLY , something which conditions builds can not do.

    Condition builds require more in the way of survival stats because they are damage over time and the longer it takes to deal that damage the more survival that is needed. If they did not have that higher toughness and vitality they could simply not prevail against a power build as power will take them out long before conditions can be ramped up.

    The issue with conditions is related to very specific classes. All classes in GW2 can train as condition builds and all of them can wear DIRE armor or TB armor and get that extra toughness and vitality. ALL classes that go the Condition route can focus only on Condition damage stat offensive wise. While ALL classes can do this only a minority of them are really an issue when we speak of balance and conditions , this suggesting the issue NOT related to "Needing one stat" or "wearing dire armor" but that is specific to those professions and the skills and utilities that allow rapid condition ramp.

    I don't think I could disagree with this more if I tried.

    There is should ALWAYS be a survival trade off for doing maxim damage no matter the source. There is no reason why doing optimal condition damage should not put a player at as much risk as doing optimal power damage.

    This is exactly what is wrong with the way the stats are laid out.

    I agree with the others. condition should be built around multiple stats just as power damage is.

    I also believe that we need stats that help mitigate condition damage just as we have stats that mitigate Power damage.

    Optimal condition damage is still less then power damage. It has a LOWER ceiling . It has a lower ceiling because ferocity and precision do not help to make it better. Power builds have more flexibility when it comes to making a build because they have more stats that help their builds. I have power builds that have every bit thr toughnness or vitality as a condition build yet can still generate more damage then that condition build.

    If one car has a top speed of 200 MPH and a second car has a top speed of 100 MPH , and the goal is getting to the finish line first it does not matter that the second car has to invest LESS in order to get that "maximum" speed as its maximum speed is lower. That in EXCHANGE for reaching that top speed of 100 MPH it is more durable does not mean that this an "unfair advantage". it only becomes so when it can reach that 200 MPH and still be more durable , which happens only in a small handful of builds and is addressed by looking at those builds in particular.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 30, 2017

    They need to rework how certain high mobility roaming specs deal condition damage, and increase the potency of removal abilities on certain CORE professions, but I feel like conditions on the whole aren't that big of an issue.
    I mean, if you get loaded up with 10+ conditions in a large scale fight you can hardly claim that conditions are OP because of that -- if these people were running power builds you'd still be dead. There's definitely a placebo effect at work here.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    You anti-condi people always complaining.
    I want power-based damage nerfed, since my scourge was hit by 2 CoR's, a meteor shower, and an Earthshaker all at once and went down! /s
    /non-s I can at least have half a chance to get rid of condi with a cleanse or conversion. I get jumped by power there is far less time to "get rid of" the damage source.
    There are already mitigations to condition damage, just as there are to power damage. Find something new and different to complain about.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

    expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 31, 2017

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

    expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

    hehe i am probably one of those guys who will say, shut up and take my money if i like the product.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

    expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

    hehe i am probably one of those guys who will say, shut up and take my money if i like the product.

    Me 2 , reason i didnt bother to buy PoF and i think buying HoT was already a mistake.

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    vitality needs to be augmented for condi buffer. therefore, a player with high vit has bonus resist on condi, like how toughness is to power.

    expect Anet to sell next elite traits on next expantion that spam aoe resistance.... that's how they fix stuff.

    hehe i am probably one of those guys who will say, shut up and take my money if i like the product.

    Me 2 , reason i didnt bother to buy PoF and i think buying HoT was already a mistake.

    hehe. only desert was, imo.

    i like pof. i am a lore buff.

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • Apolo.5942Apolo.5942 Member ✭✭✭

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

    Most certainly NOT. Condition is already OP, you need 2 stats to maximize its damage, power needs 3, This lets Condi build OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE with out drawback. Looking at you TRAILBLAZER.

    Conditions need to be normalized:
    1- SINGLE PLAYER conditions stack on DURATION.
    2- MULTIPLE PLAYERS conditions stack on INTENSITY.
    3- REBALANCE condition duration, damage and application.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Apolo.5942 said:

    @Klipso.8653 said:
    They shouldn't load toughness. If they're gonna add a new mitigation stat for Condi, then it should be separate from toughness so players would have to choose between them.

    Most certainly NOT. Condition is already OP, you need 2 stats to maximize its damage, power needs 3, This lets Condi build OFFENSIVE and DEFENSIVE with out drawback. Looking at you TRAILBLAZER.

    The fact that Condition builds need only one stat to maximize damage output is meaningless if maximum damage output is lower than that of Power. TB and DIRE are not issues as they add no more to damage than something like Carrion.

    Where power damage output uses more stats to increase damage , the bulk of Condition damage comes from RAMP and specific skills and utilities and not the armor. As such looking at the armor as the culprit is not logical. This is why only a handful of condition builds are really an issue. Throwing Zerker armor over soldiers on a power build such as thief can dramatically increase damage output. Throwing dire on a Condition mesmer in place of carrion does not.

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