Condition Cleanse Priority — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Condition Cleanse Priority

Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
edited January 5, 2018 in PVP

When it comes to condition cleanse in gw2 I'm always baffled on how the majority of condi cleanse is rather rng in terms of the way you clear damage. And I say rather because there are skills in the game that remove specific conditions in which you can use whenever you like, but those condition removal options usually are few and far between to the skills that are undefined that clear a random conditions and you simply roll the dice. It's unrewarding, and doesn't promote skillful play.

My proposal is to literally take every condition clear in the game and fine tune them to clear specific conditions only, this way you know exactly what you're going to clear at what times as opposed to "clear two conditions and hope the ones that are cleared are the ones that are killing you out of the 8 conditions that are on you". This way you completely avoid the entire rng based nonsense game that you encounter when you're loaded with conditions and wanted to get rid of only a select few. However the kicker is that every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Here's a few random examples of what I'm trying to say, this is just a ballpark so take this with a grain of salt.

Mesmer - weak condition clear against bleed & blind
Thief - weak condition clear against confusion & slow
Guardian - weak condition clear against poison & fear
Warrior - weak condition clear against torment & taunt etc

Again, these are just random examples. The idea was to take one of the 1 of the 5 main damaging conditions "bleeding, burning, confusion, poison, & torment" and pair it together with one non damaging condition "blind, chilled, crippled, fear, immob, slow, taunt, weakness, and vuln, then simply pick a class. That's how I made the example you see above. Obviously it this were to go into effect there should be more thought about which damaging and non damaging condition got paired with each profession, obviously.

This way you have a general idea from the get go what classes you're going to be favored against, and which classes you are unfavorable against. To give another example this doesn't mean that mesmer shouldn't have no condition clear against bleed and blind for example, perhaps one to a few skills at best to clear bleed or blind. That way when you do decide to use that condition clear on said conditions it should be at a crucial moment, otherwise you should and will die because of your misplay. Obviously I'm asking for quite a bit here, and there's Countless threads "No pun intended" complaining about the condi damage being out of control with no real solution on how to fix the problem other than nerfing conditions into oblivion which is the wrong way to go imo. That's not saying I don't think that the application of conditions in general should not be reviewed and possibly toned down in certain areas, but if it were, those changes should only occur after the condition removal process was done first.

Countless

Comments

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The main problem about conditions in the last period is that they are too easy to stack on.
    Against a pro player using condi mirage, you somehow cleanse that 12 stacks of confusion and think, oh nice, now I can fight back, instead 1 second later literally when you have zero dodges left, zero condi cleanse left because you used them before, you find yourself having another 20 stacks of confusion and you die by pressing a single skill.
    Or against a really good scourge, you stay at range yes, you avoid standing still in shades, you cleanse, he tp to you apply 100 condis and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Of course you can avoid 1vs1 with those classes, but if your team mates are not so good and don't help you outnumber you have to take the chance and 1vs1 anyway...
    And people now complain of holosmith, which I am loving to use,just because he bursts. Burst can be avoided way better than stupid 20 stacks of condis which are paradoxically more bursty than real power build xD just insane.

    I don't know a way to tune down condis that won't nerf them into the ground. Maybe set a stack limit to the condis, like cannot get more than 10 stacks of confusion, not more than 10 stacks of torment, so it achieves a cap and you have more counter play way. (I would make this change for PvP and WvW only).

    So for example if there are 2 scourges in the team, you only get 10 stacks of torment and not doubled like it is now and get 25...

    Same thing when the guardian symbols were stacking each other, it was broken... why don't do the same and cap the stacks of condis???

    Condis will still be strong, but having 2 scourges won't be overpowered and unfun to play against anymore, because now it is not healthy at all.

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2018

    Perhaps you didn't understand the thread, the whole point is to make every condition clear remove specific conditions, making reapplication as a whole inherently not as threatening in theory. Obviously balance would come into play when it came to the specifics of the condition clear skills and how it would change, naturally. And as I said, not every class is simply going to have unlimited number of clears for every condition, because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Not doing so would simply take away the threat of conditions entirely, which makes the game stale and boring. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

  • Vallun.2071Vallun.2071 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 5, 2018

    I actually like this decision to make more powerful condi cleanses that clear specific condis. However I think more of the granular condi cleanses should still exist because they are more versatile in a world where there are many of those condi specific cleanses. There are skills that remove all movement impairing condis, but only can think of the thief heal hide in shadows that removes damaging conditions. Not sure what suggestions you made for specific skills since i didnt read the whole wall, but it would be interesting to have maybe one reasonably-convenient-to-fit-into-your-build damaging condi cleanse per class, and then that allows condis to be balanced around the ability for them to be removed instantly but also only be removed reliably once per set amount of time.

  • When a condition is cleansed from a player, that player cannot receive the condition again for 3s. Conditions deserve a revealed-like mechanic to make cleanses stronger. Nerf some cleanses appropriately (FB F2 tome comes to mind)

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    Perhaps you didn't understand the thread, the whole point is to make every condition clear remove specific conditions, making reapplication as a whole inherently not as threatening in theory. Obviously balance would come into play when it came to the specifics of the condition clear skills and how it would change, naturally. And as I said, not every class is simply going to have unlimited number of clears for every condition, because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Not doing so would simply take away the threat of conditions entirely, which makes the game stale and boring. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    To me seems pretty stupid and you create too unbalance, like some classes can never beat another class because that class is like "immune" to your condition because can clear it.

    "because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s)"

    Pretty stupid too because then that class can never face ever in 1vs1 that class that applies the condis who is weak against, but always have to run away. Create too much counters, if a class is weak to poisona lot, it gets countered by thiefs, scourges rangers ecc. too much. Counters should exits but not based on condis...

    You seem to be mistaking a unfavorable match up with a impossible to face match up. I would explain the differences to you but that kinda feels like a waste of my time. That being said you're not really contributing much to the thread when you literally said "I don't know a way to tune down condis that won't nerf them into the ground." When you come up with a decent idea, I'm all ears.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    Perhaps you didn't understand the thread, the whole point is to make every condition clear remove specific conditions, making reapplication as a whole inherently not as threatening in theory. Obviously balance would come into play when it came to the specifics of the condition clear skills and how it would change, naturally. And as I said, not every class is simply going to have unlimited number of clears for every condition, because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Not doing so would simply take away the threat of conditions entirely, which makes the game stale and boring. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    To me seems pretty stupid and you create too unbalance, like some classes can never beat another class because that class is like "immune" to your condition because can clear it.

    "because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s)"

    Pretty stupid too because then that class can never face ever in 1vs1 that class that applies the condis who is weak against, but always have to run away. Create too much counters, if a class is weak to poisona lot, it gets countered by thiefs, scourges rangers ecc. too much. Counters should exits but not based on condis...

    You seem to be mistaking a unfavorable match up with a impossible to face match up. I would explain the differences to you but that kinda feels like a waste of my time. That being said you're not really contributing much to the thread when you literally said "I don't know a way to tune down condis that won't nerf them into the ground." When you come up with a decent idea, I'm all ears.

    If the condis are still strong like they are now, and you get 25 stacks of torment, and let's say thief is the profession weak the most to torment, but thief can clear only blind and confusion, the thief gets melted all the time by torment and he can't never face that class that stacks torment on him because he has no counter play at all. This is what you are proposing, be more specific and don't act like a genius who said an insane revelation, I am up to discuss and I critisized you, if you don't accept criticism you shouldn't post at all in a forum where many different ideas can come up against you sir.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Isn't Thief weak condition cleanse against everything but imparing movement effect skills?

    Here's the Meta DD

    build https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Daredevil_-_Dagger/Pistol

    And here's the S/D core build ( 3rd utility as for DD is mostly, if not definitely, blinding powder )

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Thief_-_Marauder_S/D

    So thief has signet ( 3 condi > 30 sec cd ) and shadowstep, which is not necessarily for condi removal ( on return ), because it's the only bs thief has.
    S/D has also Sword skill 2, which cleanse a single condition on return.

    Compared to many of the other classes, the class itself does not have many condi removal ( but because of dodges, teleports and stealth, it's a good trade despide the horrible condi meta ).

  • Trigr.6481Trigr.6481 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2018

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    Perhaps you didn't understand the thread, the whole point is to make every condition clear remove specific conditions, making reapplication as a whole inherently not as threatening in theory. Obviously balance would come into play when it came to the specifics of the condition clear skills and how it would change, naturally. And as I said, not every class is simply going to have unlimited number of clears for every condition, because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Not doing so would simply take away the threat of conditions entirely, which makes the game stale and boring. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    To me seems pretty stupid and you create too unbalance, like some classes can never beat another class because that class is like "immune" to your condition because can clear it.

    "because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s)"

    Pretty stupid too because then that class can never face ever in 1vs1 that class that applies the condis who is weak against, but always have to run away. Create too much counters, if a class is weak to poisona lot, it gets countered by thiefs, scourges rangers ecc. too much. Counters should exits but not based on condis...

    You seem to be mistaking a unfavorable match up with a impossible to face match up. I would explain the differences to you but that kinda feels like a waste of my time. That being said you're not really contributing much to the thread when you literally said "I don't know a way to tune down condis that won't nerf them into the ground." When you come up with a decent idea, I'm all ears.

    If the condis are still strong like they are now, and you get 25 stacks of torment, and let's say thief is the profession weak the most to torment, but thief can clear only blind and confusion, the thief gets melted all the time by torment and he can't never face that class that stacks torment on him because he has no counter play at all. This is what you are proposing, be more specific and don't act like a genius who said an insane revelation, I am up to discuss and I critisized you, if you don't accept criticism you shouldn't post at all in a forum where many different ideas can come up against you sir.

    I'm sorry but there isn't much to be gained by discussing the topic with you personally if this is what you've gathered from all of my previous posts in this thread. No point in repeating myself.

  • tartarus.1082tartarus.1082 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2018

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    Perhaps you didn't understand the thread, the whole point is to make every condition clear remove specific conditions, making reapplication as a whole inherently not as threatening in theory. Obviously balance would come into play when it came to the specifics of the condition clear skills and how it would change, naturally. And as I said, not every class is simply going to have unlimited number of clears for every condition, because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Not doing so would simply take away the threat of conditions entirely, which makes the game stale and boring. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    To me seems pretty stupid and you create too unbalance, like some classes can never beat another class because that class is like "immune" to your condition because can clear it.

    "because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s)"

    Pretty stupid too because then that class can never face ever in 1vs1 that class that applies the condis who is weak against, but always have to run away. Create too much counters, if a class is weak to poisona lot, it gets countered by thiefs, scourges rangers ecc. too much. Counters should exits but not based on condis...

    You seem to be mistaking a unfavorable match up with a impossible to face match up. I would explain the differences to you but that kinda feels like a waste of my time. That being said you're not really contributing much to the thread when you literally said "I don't know a way to tune down condis that won't nerf them into the ground." When you come up with a decent idea, I'm all ears.

    If the condis are still strong like they are now, and you get 25 stacks of torment, and let's say thief is the profession weak the most to torment, but thief can clear only blind and confusion, the thief gets melted all the time by torment and he can't never face that class that stacks torment on him because he has no counter play at all. This is what you are proposing, be more specific and don't act like a genius who said an insane revelation, I am up to discuss and I critisized you, if you don't accept criticism you shouldn't post at all in a forum where many different ideas can come up against you sir.

    I'm sorry but there isn't much to be gained by discussing the topic with you personally if this is what you've gathered from all of my previous posts in this thread. No point in repeating myself.

    I mean his point isn't really wrong though. You want to have cleanse cure specific conditions rather than blanket cleanse and have specific specs specialize in curing X damage condi and Y misc/debuff condi. I don't know why you're acting like this isn't what you said, and as the other mentioned it would actually create a Rock Paper Scissors meta. And any hard-counter situation is unhealthy for pvp because you essentially take out the individual skill/ability in a 1v1.

    This idea as you seem to intend implementation would promote hard counters and unfavorable matchups. As the other pointed out if I lack cleanse for condi X I can't realistically fight the spec that specializes in outputting that same condi, since I can't negate his damage. Alternatively condi specs can't fight certain builds that specialize in cleansing this condi.

    Moreover you will accidentally take away certain counterplay options. For example, let's say I was a chrono and I'm unable to cleanse blind. I'm in a 1v1 with a thief and he blinds my shield 4 with shadowshot. now I can't summon the phantasm and my damage potential has essentially been negated or minimized at least .

    However with inspiration as it exists now I can spend a mindwrack and cleanse blind at the last second to secure the spawn, with alacrity and such the cd is almost instantaneously over so it's a reasonable trade off to secure the spawn and set up a chronphantasma combo.

    While I do agree condition cleanse and application do need attention. I don't think this particular method or implementation is the proper way to improve the health of pvp.

    Also did you really have to be so pretentious with unwinnable vs unfavorable matchup. Not being able to cleanse a condition with current application is a death sentence, and the other commenter had a valid point and concern. I mean simply try facing a condi mirage with no cleanse, that is an experience certain specs and builds will inevitably face if this system was to be implemented.

  • whoknocks.4935whoknocks.4935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tartarus.1082 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:

    @whoknocks.4935 said:

    @Trigr.6481 said:
    Perhaps you didn't understand the thread, the whole point is to make every condition clear remove specific conditions, making reapplication as a whole inherently not as threatening in theory. Obviously balance would come into play when it came to the specifics of the condition clear skills and how it would change, naturally. And as I said, not every class is simply going to have unlimited number of clears for every condition, because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s). Not doing so would simply take away the threat of conditions entirely, which makes the game stale and boring. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    To me seems pretty stupid and you create too unbalance, like some classes can never beat another class because that class is like "immune" to your condition because can clear it.

    "because every class should and needs to be inherently weak to specific condition(s)"

    Pretty stupid too because then that class can never face ever in 1vs1 that class that applies the condis who is weak against, but always have to run away. Create too much counters, if a class is weak to poisona lot, it gets countered by thiefs, scourges rangers ecc. too much. Counters should exits but not based on condis...

    You seem to be mistaking a unfavorable match up with a impossible to face match up. I would explain the differences to you but that kinda feels like a waste of my time. That being said you're not really contributing much to the thread when you literally said "I don't know a way to tune down condis that won't nerf them into the ground." When you come up with a decent idea, I'm all ears.

    If the condis are still strong like they are now, and you get 25 stacks of torment, and let's say thief is the profession weak the most to torment, but thief can clear only blind and confusion, the thief gets melted all the time by torment and he can't never face that class that stacks torment on him because he has no counter play at all. This is what you are proposing, be more specific and don't act like a genius who said an insane revelation, I am up to discuss and I critisized you, if you don't accept criticism you shouldn't post at all in a forum where many different ideas can come up against you sir.

    I'm sorry but there isn't much to be gained by discussing the topic with you personally if this is what you've gathered from all of my previous posts in this thread. No point in repeating myself.

    I mean his point isn't really wrong though. You want to have cleanse cure specific conditions rather than blanket cleanse and have specific specs specialize in curing X damage condi and Y misc/debuff condi. I don't know why you're acting like this isn't what you said, and as the other mentioned it would actually create a Rock Paper Scissors meta. And any hard-counter situation is unhealthy for pvp because you essentially take out the individual skill/ability in a 1v1.

    This idea as you seem to intend implementation would promote hard counters and unfavorable matchups. As the other pointed out if I lack cleanse for condi X I can't realistically fight the spec that specializes in outputting that same condi, since I can't negate his damage. Alternatively condi specs can't fight certain builds that specialize in cleansing this condi.

    Moreover you will accidentally take away certain counterplay options. For example, let's say I was a chrono and I'm unable to cleanse blind. I'm in a 1v1 with a thief and he blinds my shield 4 with shadowshot. now I can't summon the phantasm and my damage potential has essentially been negated or minimized at least .

    However with inspiration as it exists now I can spend a mindwrack and cleanse blind at the last second to secure the spawn, with alacrity and such the cd is almost instantaneously over so it's a reasonable trade off to secure the spawn and set up a chronphantasma combo.

    While I do agree condition cleanse and application do need attention. I don't think this particular method or implementation is the proper way to improve the health of pvp.

    Also did you really have to be so pretentious with unwinnable vs unfavorable matchup. Not being able to cleanse a condition with current application is a death sentence, and the other commenter had a valid point and concern. I mean simply try facing a condi mirage with no cleanse, that is an experience certain specs and builds will inevitably face if this system was to be implemented.

    Exactly what I was meaning. If you have a skill to cleanse burning and you receive torment in a 1vs1 situation what do you do? Just run and hope the stacks received don't kill you or that a teammate can cleanse you, I don't like to find myself in this kind of scenario. Already now against a good condi mirage or good scourge having skills like the guardian contemplation of purity or one elixir of the engi which cleanse all the condis and make them boons which seems OP, they sometimes are not enough to save you and you die regardless.

    But yeah for him we didn't understand anything of his post so I don't know.

  • Egorum.9506Egorum.9506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Change cleanse order from last on, first off to highest stacks first. Boom, problem solved.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Egorum.9506 said:
    Change cleanse order from last on, first off to highest stacks first. Boom, problem solved.

    It wouldn't solve anything because of the changes that would have to accompany this.

  • Egorum.9506Egorum.9506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Which would be what? The only thing anet would have to change is cleanse priority in the engine, not tweaking each and every skill. It would open up counterplay as well, stacking vuln/bleed to cover burn etc.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They would need to take steps for damaging conditions to not become completely irrelevant and debilitating conditions be an issue.

    The condition system in the game isn't inherently broken just some builds need tuning. Reinventing the wheel isn't necessary.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2018

    Reducing cover condis might be a globally effective if lazy alternative.

    I don't think this is a bad idea, and perhaps this is what you were trying to convey and I missed it; but instead of gearing condi clears to specific condis exclusively (like only clearing bleeds, or only clearing confusion.) let them function as normal, but will stamp out specific condis when available regardless of stacks.

    Not sure about the soft CC condis like cripple/chill, but the harder ones like fear/taunt/and I count imob in that, should always cleanse first if intensity stacks are under 5.

    So at worst, you have what you have now with a little less RNG. (example: Using 2 clear skill. You know the 2 bleed will cleanse instead of the 10 confusion, but the second cleanse will prioritize the confusion equal to any hard CC. Rest is RNG if present AFTER cleansing prioritized bleed [based on class/skill , AFTER priority high intensity stack that is equal priority to CC.) and at worst is the same as we have now.

    This will mean that there is priority and reduces the effectiveness of spamming cover conditions, but it also means that the skill (or related class) will always cleanse the selected option first meaning just having 1 stack can be a forcibly imposed cover condi.

  • Shirlias.8104Shirlias.8104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    The condition system in the game isn't inherently broken just some builds need tuning. Reinventing the wheel isn't necessary.

    It is, since there's no dmg mitigation on condition if compared to physical dmg ( toughness, protection, rarely persistent damage like condi aoe do ).

    Conditions should have been debuffs, but they were not enough casual both for all modalities, and since the casual/carebear is the one who put real cash, here we have conditions.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    They would need to take steps for damaging conditions to not become completely irrelevant and debilitating conditions be an issue.

    The condition system in the game isn't inherently broken just some builds need tuning. Reinventing the wheel isn't necessary.

    In GW2's case, it really, truly is if you want a remotely respectable video game.

  • @Swagg.9236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    They would need to take steps for damaging conditions to not become completely irrelevant and debilitating conditions be an issue.

    The condition system in the game isn't inherently broken just some builds need tuning. Reinventing the wheel isn't necessary.

    In GW2's case, it really, truly is if you want a remotely respectable video game.

    In gw2 case, the best idea would be to remove conditions cleans and then balance everything around Blocking, Evading and Blinding.

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