Lion's Arch - Before and After

[Endrance.1680]

Lion's Arch has some lengthy, violent lore surrounding it and is one of my favorite maps in Tyria, in both Guild Wars: Prophecies and Guild Wars 2. During the Prophecies days the map was dramatically different in both appearance and the atmosphere, however, LA has always had that unique "feel" to it. There isn't another map like it. At the release of Guild Wars 2 LA was much as what you would expect if you read Ree Soesbee's "Sea of Sorrows"; the blue and white canvas throughout the city, much as it still is today, the old ship hulls for shops and housing that reminded you of Peter Pan and the Lost Boys. Of course Scarlet destroys the city, something that LA is not unaccustomed to, and the rebuilding begins. Modern day LA still has some echoes of the old city, the blue and whites still strewn throughout, the ship hulls, but the city is further expanded to include great stonework statues in the form of aquatic animals.

For me LA is still a unique and great place but the city feels different now. Lion's Arch now feels...clinical, that is, it's almost too clean, too perfect. Artificial. The streets are less crowded, the structures are of that blue and white mosaic and inadvertently rob the old sailcloth of the cloudy sky "pop" it once possessed.

What are your thoughts? Today's Lion's Arch, or the Lion's Arch of the past?

For the Devs: Are there any future changes coming to LA, of course without releasing any spoilers. The city doesn't feel like the "high seas" that it used to.

Thanks!

[Randulf.7614]

Never liked old LA. It was a shambolic mess just waiting to fall apart or be invaded. I get why people like that sort of character, but new LA is unique given we already plenty of pirate themes across Kryta already. It also encapsulates the World better given the relevance and emphasis on the progression of new technologies as a key part of the story arc and huge groups like the Consortium and The Pact staking their claims on the World.

It doesn't feel like the High Seas anymore because the World is moving on. That is something fantasy rarely gets right and for better or worse, I find it one of GW2’s more fascinating parts

[Endrance.1680]

@Randulf.7614 said:Never liked old LA. It was a shambolic mess just waiting to fall apart or be invaded. I get why people like that sort of character, but new LA is unique given we already plenty of pirate themes across Kryta already. It also encapsulates the World better given the relevance and emphasis on the progression of new technologies as a key part of the story arc and huge groups like the Consortium and The Pact staking their claims on the World.

It doesn't feel like the High Seas anymore because the World is moving on. That is something fantasy rarely gets right and for better or worse, I find it one of GW2’s more fascinating parts

Totally agree with you about the World moving on, and you're right, fantasy rarely does get that right and GW2 and the folks at ANet are doing a superb job on it. The new LA just feels so empty. The older version was messy, no doubt about it, and it definitely could have used some fixes in specific areas, but it just had more depth. Being able to swim down into the sewers and find tunnels linking different portions was really fun.

We really don't need new pirate themes, I'm with you on that as well. I suppose the issue is the emptiness of LA. It feels like a theme park almost, and not so much a thriving community. It has always been a center of trade, a hub connecting all the different parts of the World and mingling the races and some of that is still evident in the new version.

[lakdav.3694]

The old LA was smaller in size with larger population. The new LA has a lot of room for future generations, but I can already imagine it going the way of Kaineng city. It is the safest city around now, with trade picking up once again: People are going to migrate there, quite soon more than what the pristine city can hold. There are too many and too great open spaces that will be filled in with temporary housing. The world outside isn't getting safer anytime soon either, so the temporary houses will be reinforced every season with several new ones popping up next to them. The Plaza will be the busiest bazaar since the Zephyrites closed theirs for good, with equal measures of awe and wonder as theirs was.

Structural flaws will start to appear. The Consortium who rebuilt the city in this image is all about profit and deceptively good public relations. It stands to reason that they saved some money on actually sound craftsmanship in favor of it just looking good. They will throw some parades annually celebrating the rebirth of their Lions Arch, expertly using the occasion to mask the more obvious flaws with new, even better looking ornamentation.

Then, when the last lion statue is finally gone, they will officially have the city renamed to Calamari Arch

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Past Lion's Arch. Partially because I dig the nautical shantytown, and partially because it doesn't feel like LA's moving on at all to me. Quite the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I get where Randulf is coming from. If it was all like Fort Marriner, the Commodore's Quarter, and the waterfront, I could learn to love it (lobster and all), but the problem is that there's essentially two Lion's Arches in play now, and all that good stuff is just the town squeezed onto the edge of its bigger twin. New LA proper is a 'city' where sixty percent of the main area was leveled to make a park NPCs don't do anything with so that players can more easily spot each other, broken only by fanciful statues set up to mark the in-game services. It's an expansive vault that does nothing but display cash shop weaponry, and a privately owned island that's been commandeered into another park to hold in-game wedding photo shoots. It doesn't feel like the city moved on and made progress to break the traditional fantasy stasis; it feels like it was paved over to be replaced with an MMO lobby. In that sense, it's a move backwards, much closer to GW1 LA than any other place in the new game.

[draxynnic.3719]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Past Lion's Arch. Partially because I dig the nautical shantytown, and partially because it doesn't feel like LA's moving on at all to me. Quite the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I get where Randulf is coming from. If it was all like Fort Marriner, the Commodore's Quarter, and the waterfront, I could learn to love it (lobster and all), but the problem is that there's essentially two Lion's Arches in play now, and all that good stuff is just the town squeezed onto the edge of its bigger twin. New LA proper is a 'city' where sixty percent of the main area was leveled to make a park NPCs don't do anything with so that players can more easily spot each other, broken only by fanciful statues set up to mark the in-game services. It's an expansive vault that does nothing but display cash shop weaponry, and a privately owned island that's been commandeered into another park to hold in-game wedding photo shoots. It doesn't feel like the city moved on and made progress to break the traditional fantasy stasis; it feels like it was paved over to be replaced with an MMO lobby. In that sense, it's a move backwards, much closer to GW1 LA than any other place in the new game.

And let's not forget the history that was literally paved over.

Mind you, there are some elements that I do like about the new LA. It's been a long time since it was founded and LA was supposed to be a prosperous city, so most of the repurposed ship hulls really should have been replaced with more metropolitan, conventional buildings.

[Narcemus.1348]

Yeah, there are things that I disliked about both cities, in the end, I feel that it just comes down to the fact that the city center doesn't feel like a city. There needs to be more buildings, more housing, you can have wide plazas, but the way it currently stands is counter to really any city I have ever visited. It doesn't feel realistic, even in a fantasy setting.

[Endrance.1680]

@Narcemus.1348 said:Yeah, there are things that I disliked about both cities, in the end, I feel that it just comes down to the fact that the city center doesn't feel like a city. There needs to be more buildings, more housing, you can have wide plazas, but the way it currently stands is counter to really any city I have ever visited. It doesn't feel realistic, even in a fantasy setting.

I think you nailed it on the head here Narcemus. It doesn't feel like a city at all, and to piggy back off of Aaron it does feel like an MMO Lobby. It's got a very sterile, empty feeling to it, all glitz and glam but no real substance.

A total bashing isn't my intention so I will say that I like some of the scenery. The Devs did a great job with the graphics in regards to details. The ships, the intricate designs on surfaces, it's all very nice.

[Castigator.3470]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Past Lion's Arch. Partially because I dig the nautical shantytown, and partially because it doesn't feel like LA's moving on at all to me. Quite the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I get where Randulf is coming from. If it was all like Fort Marriner, the Commodore's Quarter, and the waterfront, I could learn to love it (lobster and all), but the problem is that there's essentially two Lion's Arches in play now, and all that good stuff is just the town squeezed onto the edge of its bigger twin. New LA proper is a 'city' where sixty percent of the main area was leveled to make a park NPCs don't do anything with so that players can more easily spot each other, broken only by fanciful statues set up to mark the in-game services. It's an expansive vault that does nothing but display cash shop weaponry, and a privately owned island that's been commandeered into another park to hold in-game wedding photo shoots. It doesn't feel like the city moved on and made progress to break the traditional fantasy stasis; it feels like it was paved over to be replaced with an MMO lobby. In that sense, it's a move backwards, much closer to GW1 LA than any other place in the new game.

I actually disliked the shantytown of old Lion's Arch. It just couldn't compete with the bustling, yet ordered activity of the Black Citadel.Yet what I did like about the place was the history, the atmospheric dialogue, the rumours, in short, you could start a conversation with an NPC and they had things to say, how the city went about its daily business, how the world interacted with Lion's Arch and how its inhabitants interacted with each other.The female charr speculating whether Tribune Brimstone has a mate, there was talk about water closets, you could go to a bar and get all kinds of conversations.Today's Lion's Arch has two big problems:

1. There is a severe lack of conversations, ambent speech or normal conversations with bystanders.
2. The central Plaza is way too large, making the city feel even more empty.

At least the first one should be possible to address. What is happening in this world? All roads lead to Lion's Arch, so I'd expect the news over current events to spread there eventually.

[Dewsitine.3645]

For me the new LA seems too much of a disneyland park going on. I agree with the others here that I would like to have/see more buildings maybe orderly cramped with symmetrical pathways while the upper areas/buildings are a little bit asymmetrical or something like that. I do like the jump puzzle to the troll's garden with the little ropes that go to and fro different buildings. Would be neat to have a little char district and other races districts.

[TwilightSoul.9048]

I never really liked the old lions arch but mainly because it was a pain to explore for world complete. It was a mess, but damn did it have character.I absolutely loved everything scarlet related, including the attack on Lions Arch and the aftermath and I loved that Lions Arch was going to be rebuild but when we finally got to see the new LA I actually wished we could've prevented Scarlet's attack... The new Lions Arch doesn't look like a place in GW2, it looks like a place from some Asian F2P MMORPG with jiggly bits (Don't act like you don't know what I'm talking about).So for me, as much as I hated exploring it, the old LA was SO much better.

One of my favorite NPC conversations (they can be found at the Portal to the Fractals of the Mist):

Lionguard Tyrro: I'm glad to see the city up and running again, but it isn't the same.Alainn: What's wrong with it? It's grander than ever!Lionguard Tyrro: That's my point. The old LA wasn't grand. It had character. It has spirit. It had grit. This just isn't the same.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Commodore's Quarter still has some wood from old LA, and the buildings have a distinct "made out of old ships, but reinforced by concrete" feel to it. This should have been the whole of LA's design. That corner is actually a nice blend of old LA's character, and the need to improve and move on.

Just maybe less cramped than Commodore's Quarter is now... Double the size of the streets and alleys.

[Dayra.7405]

Oh that topic was already not so long ago: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/277981

[Djahlat.9610]

I just want the old lion fountain back. You know, the one Mad King Thorn used to make his great come back from the Mists? That was glorious, watching the fountain be more and more damaged through the weeks to finally culminate to his arrival with that massive event. I miss it :( Now it's the only reason I always vote to play in the Revenge of the Capricorn in sPvP

[WhiteWolfGalo.5720]

Anyone notice that all of the personal story played withing LA still uses the old LA sets. this has got to be somewhat confusing to the new players doesn't it?

[crepuscular.9047]

new LA is too aquarium / theme park

LA supposed to be a trading port, would like to see ships travelling in and out of the city, and workers loading and unloading cargos

but then, i guess they can't, because anet decided to slap Southsun Cove right in the middle of the trading route, blocking off all the trader...with no import tariffs from overseas traders, LA is going bankruptto survive the LAFC (Lion's Arch Financial Crisis), they slapped tariffs on player trading through the monopolised Trading Post

[InvaGir.9158]

@WhiteWolfGalo.5720 said:Anyone notice that all of the personal story played withing LA still uses the old LA sets. this has got to be somewhat confusing to the new players doesn't it?Yeah but it makes sense since old LA still exist at that point of the game.Plus new players can check what happned to the old LA in-game.

[crepuscular.9047]

@InvaGir.9158 said:

@WhiteWolfGalo.5720 said:Anyone notice that all of the personal story played withing LA still uses the old LA sets. this has got to be somewhat confusing to the new players doesn't it?Yeah but it makes sense since old LA still exist at that point of the game.Plus new players can check what happned to the old LA in-game.

story missions are instanced, modifying it will be additional workplus it break the timeline, because the rebuilt happened long after personal story had ended

anet did place an old film filter over the mission when LA got rebuilt, noting it's a past event.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@"crepuscular.9047" said:story missions are instanced, modifying it will be additional workActually, you may be interested to know that it's the other way around. Back when LA was first destroyed, the story missions used the open world map. The result was...

It took quite a while before the devs went back to restore the LA and Concordia instances to their pre-ruined state.

[deatine.2498]

I found the game long after LS1 was a thing, so I could never actually miss Old Lions Arch.

However:

I just recently paid some actual attention to Old LA in my second personal story run.
With my first character, I rushed through those parts, mostly because I was very irritated/confused by the sepia filter for the "Old Lions Arch" instances.

I switched off post processing after that.
So during my second story run, I spend some actual time to explore the small pieces of Old Lions Arch we can access.

And man, I was blown away by how much was lost with Old LA. I have rarely seen such incredible love for detail to make a virtual place feel real and homely.Even the sounds seemed so carefully crafted to fit into the theme perfectly. It did sound like an actual, cozy coastal town.
The first walk up to the fountain with the lion statue was pretty impressive, too.

I specifically checked new LA for some of the cool impressions I got in Old LA. Maybe I just never noticed how awesome the new version sounds, or never found the new cool cozy spots. But that doesn't seem to be it. Those things were lost without replacement and new LA does feel kind of soulless in comparison.

And I'm quite sure something equally epic could've been done with the aqua theme park that is new LA, but it feels like it was rushed and little thought was put into the user experience, besides "how to get from A to B fastest".

I also noticed that, while new LA certainly has more open floor areas, it feels very constricting to me because a lot of walkways and areas are walled with high (and pretty boring) concrete walls.

[Kerbezena.3804]

 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

Necro-ing a three year abandoned thread to post a six year old video.  Also: WOODEN POTATOES IS A FALSE GOD.