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Toughness: Questioning its value


arenta.2953

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trying to choose between these 2 builds

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughnesswhich makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

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Toughness did work on the direct damage(Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

Basically this is the calculation:Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

  • AFAIK, critical hit increase direct damage, but it is not ignoring armor
  • Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

More on here:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughnesshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Direct_damage

What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

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@"akenoyuki.8210" said:Toughness did work on the direct damage(Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

Basically this is the calculation:Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

More on here:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toughnesshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Damage#Direct_damage

What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

no vulnerability, had just used the Natural healing skill.

got hit by thishttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wastrel%27s_Ruin

which has a coefficient of 1.5plus 100% more dmg.

but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3kand then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

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Hmm... Maybe there's more to itI see you're on WvW mode, did you perhaps got attacked near enemy castle / keep?I rarely go to WvW so I'm not really sure, but there are some boon you get if you're near the castle / keep such as the guild objective aura and presence of the keep right?

Also since it is WvW, did your enemy have 25 might, bloodlust, or something like that too?I'm afraid there's a lot of unknown variable on this..

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@"arenta.2953" said:trying to choose between these 2 builds

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughnesswhich makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

Warriors have a few traits that conditionally buff toughness:• Thick Skin - +180 toughness when above 75% hp• Spiked Armor - +150 toughness when you have retaliation. Gain 5s of retaliation when you block or are hit by a crit. --> You likely didn't have retaliation as a buff as your combat log shows you getting hit by necros shades, well of corruption and loss aversion.

• Your screen shot is at a keep and you have the Presence of the Keep buff on you which is giving you +100 toughness (also +100 to power, precision, vitality stats).

--> Based on the above, subtract 280 toughness from the value shown in the display window in the screen shot

You don't know how buffed the warrior was (i.e. might stacks on him, bloodlust sigil stacks, stacks of Insight, vulnerability on you).

Investing in toughness suffers diminishing returns: for each additional point of toughness you add to your build you get incrementally less and less reduction in damage. Direct damage continues to scale in a linear manner. The system was setup like this likely as a way to prevent a situation where a player could create an unkillable tank in pvp. (Sidenote: HoT especially took a massive dump on this system by adding flat percentage damage reduction modifiers and food to the game). Wastrel's Ruin has a +100% damage modifier if it hit you and you aren't using a skill at the time. If you were using a skill at the time he hit you, he would have crit you for 4,737 damage instead of 9,475.

TLDR:• Stacking toughness is not the best way to go• The 9,475 damage hit you took is legit

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@akenoyuki.8210 said:Hmm... Maybe there's more to itI see you're on WvW mode, did you perhaps got attacked near enemy castle / keep?I rarely go to WvW so I'm not really sure, but there are some boon you get if you're near the castle / keep such as the guild objective aura and presence of the keep right?

you are correct, the buff gives +100 to all stats.

but even that isn't enough to explain it

plus, this was by a tier 1 supply camp.

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@Naix.8156 said:

@"arenta.2953" said:trying to choose between these 2 builds

but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?

i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughnesswhich makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

Warriors have a few traits that conditionally buff toughness:• Thick Skin - +180 toughness when above 75% hp• Spiked Armor - +150 toughness when you have retaliation. Gain 5s of retaliation when you block or are hit by a crit. --> You likely didn't have retaliation as a buff as your combat log shows you getting hit by necros shades, well of corruption and loss aversion.

• Your screen shot is at a keep and you have the Presence of the Keep buff on you which is giving you +100 toughness (also +100 to power, precision, vitality stats).

--> Based on the above, subtract 280 toughness from the value shown in the display window in the screen shot

You don't know how buffed the warrior was (i.e. might stacks on him, bloodlust sigil stacks, stacks of Insight, vulnerability on you).

Investing in toughness suffers diminishing returns: for each additional point of toughness you add to your build you get incrementally less and less reduction in damage. Direct damage continues to scale in a linear manner. The system was setup like this likely as a way to prevent a situation where a player could create an unkillable tank in pvp. (Sidenote: HoT especially took a massive dump on this system by adding flat percentage damage reduction modifiers and food to the game). Wastrel's Ruin has a +100% damage modifier if it hit you and you aren't using a skill at the time. If you were using a skill at the time he hit you, he would have crit you for 4,737 damage instead of 9,475.

TLDR:• Stacking toughness is not the best way to go• The 9,475 damage hit you took is legit

ah..diminishing returnsis there a recommended armor level its suggested to stop at

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@arenta.2953 said:but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3kand then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

You haven't taken into account damage bonus and reduction modifiers.

If the guy was in zerk gear, scholars runes, food, etc the power value would be around 4100 at the top end; so likely you've underestimated the power value.

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@arenta.2953 said:ah..diminishing returnsis there a recommended armor level its suggested to stop at

There isn't a set number to stop at, no. In general its best, in all areas of the game not just in wvw, to use other means to mitigate or avoid damage instead of just stats. Some examples: blocks, evades, invulnerability, immunities, protection boon (-33% inc dmg), using kiting/line-of-siting, etc. Guild Wars 2 has an active combat system so its (generally speaking - not to get into power creep and passives from the expansions) best to use active abilities to avoid the damage in the first place.

If you join a wvw guild focused guild they would be able to help you with your build and explain stuff in comms (discord, ts, etc) to help you out.

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@arenta.2953 said:

@"akenoyuki.8210" said:Toughness did work on the direct damage(Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

Basically this is the calculation:
Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

More on here:

What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

no vulnerability, had just used the Natural healing skill.

got hit by this

which has a coefficient of 1.5plus 100% more dmg.

but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3kand then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

That isn't even the top end damage :p

970(lowest roll for weapon strength) 1.5(coeff) 3500(roughly 2500 base from berserker stat + 1000 for 25 stacks of might) / 3500 2.32(critical damage base + berserker stat+ Pure Strike ) 2(100% more damage) 1.05(sigil of force)1.33(peak performance) = 9428

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  • 2 years later...

@arenta.2953 said:

@"akenoyuki.8210" said:Toughness did work on the direct damage(Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

Basically this is the calculation:
Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

More on here:

What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

no vulnerability, had just used the Natural healing skill.

got hit by this

which has a coefficient of 1.5plus 100% more dmg.

but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3kand then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

yo, i know its deat now but to make it clear, you seem like didnt calculate the %dmg buffs coming from traits, sigils and runes. they are applied after total dmg and before your def value so it can hit the 9.5k^^

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@"arenta.2953" said:trying to choose between these 2 builds

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughnesswhich makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

But how much dmg would he have done if you had no toughness? Probably a heck of a lot more.

I'd be inclined to go with your Knights build but replace some/all of the trinkets with Berserker+Valkyrie, or replace rings & accessories with Valkyrie; to add some Vitality (for condi dmg) as well as Ferocity to make better use of crits.

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@"arenta.2953" said:trying to choose between these 2 builds

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8Ar5GM8OC5x357+dJAUAWbDYC-j1BBQBlUJIAeCA9RHAGV+hQ1fyjmgis/AA-w

http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQJARTnE8CN8itsA+rAUtgl8AbJAUAWbN3gh3RIP+Of3vDYC-jFCBABZq+DAPBguU61nOgtUGEpSwi2fIPNBAA-w

but the big question i'm having is...does toughness work?https://i.imgur.com/Tik2NSg.jpg

i got a ton of toughness here...and yet i take a 9.5k dmg hit with 3.5k toughnesswhich makes me question if toughness works...or is worth having at all. do crits ignore or reduce armor? does it only reduce dmg by so much?

and how did this do so much dmg....its an insane ammount...

The 2 builds you posted have a difference of 567 Total Defense (different Toughness). Let's use an example, a hit of 10 million damage. Your first build will take 3,467 damage, the second build will take 2,898 damage, or the second build has ~20% damage reduction. Without any Toughness you'd have 2118 defense, so in the example above, you'd take 4721 damage, or 36% more damage than your first build, or 63% more damage than the second build.

So Toughness does work, but it has diminishing returns.

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@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"akenoyuki.8210" said:Toughness did work on the direct damage(Direct damage = Damage inflicted by skills and/or traits directly, can crit, and is mitigated by the target's armor.)

Basically this is the calculation:
Damage you received = Enemy's Weapon strength * Enemy's Power * Enemy's skill-specific coefficient / Your Armor

Did you have vulnerability on you? Vulnerability increases condition damage and direct damage you received

More on here:

What kind of class / what skill do you get attacked with by the way? (Skill have a unique coefficient used to calculate damage inflicted)

no vulnerability, had just used the Natural healing skill.

got hit by this

which has a coefficient of 1.5plus 100% more dmg.

but no matter how much i use the armor formula. i can't understand just how he got enough attack power/strength to hit a 3.5k armor warrior for 9.5k dmg

assuming they have 2700 power. 1030 dagger. the 1.5x2 coeficient. that would only do 3kand then a crit for say 225%...and its still only 6750

That isn't even the top end damage :p

970(lowest roll for weapon strength)
1.5(coeff)
3500(roughly 2500 base from berserker stat + 1000 for 25 stacks of might) / 3500
2.32(critical damage base + berserker stat+ Pure Strike )
2(100% more damage)
1.05(sigil of force)
1.33(peak performance) = 9428

Minor corrections: Wastrel's Ruin has a coefficient of 1.0 in PVP/WVW, it's 1.5 in PVE. Also, the Pure Strike trait increases the TOTAL damage by the percentage (it doesn't increase the critical damage stat by 7%/14%), finally Peak Performance gives a total of +10% damage in PVP/WVW. I think some modifiers are missing.

God I just noticed it was a necro post... woops

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(I realise this is a necro'd thread but I'm replying for the sake of future searches.)

Toughness is most effective on Light armor classes, due to its diminishing returns; Mediums and Heavies already start out getting less value from Toughness, while Vitality scales linearly just like damage, BUT its harder to restore Vitality once depleted.

Toughness, Vitality and Healing Power scale in a way similar to Power, Precision, Ferocity, which is why you get very high DPS dealers (near one shot), and nearly unkillable tanks in the same game, especially in WvW which doesn't have the balance restrictions of sPvP.

I have a Necro(Reaper) with full Sentinel's, Vit infusions, Sigil of Momentum/Cleansing, Trooper runes and Tough/Vit food. She has around 40k of health around objectives and about 3800 armor with Death's Carapace (This my Commander build). The other day I decided to try and take a camp despite my group disappearing, I fought 2-3 players plus guards and mercenaries for about ten minutes straight before zerg arrived. Granted, I'm a seasoned player who knows how to hug walls, time CC properly, etc. but it does make a huge difference.

Its important to think of how everything adds up instead of focusing only on one aspect of the build.

Btw, the soft cap for armor (Defense, Toughness, Shield, and other buffs combined) is ~3k. But most players only run about 2500, so they can save some room in their stats for +Vit too, especially on Ele, Guardian, Thief to reach 15k.

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