Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


Recommended Posts

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Fractals are not raids.Stop being raid elitists in fractals.~ There you have it. Someone needed to say it.

Except it isn't true, and everyone says it.1) This need x happens since ever. It's how it works in every game. There has always been a Dungeon meta, a Fractal meta, a pvp meta, a WvW meta, actually the most recent meta was RAIDS, and they just carried out what was happening in Fractals and Dungeons.2) Druid+Chrono comps allow for a way more relaxed and forgiving run. I stopped playing DH, my brother stopped playing Warrior, so we can play Chrono and Druid.3) What do you care what other people want to run with? If i want to make a full necro party what's it with you? If what they ask doesn't fit your preference, it's easy don't join!4) If it bothers you so much, make your own party, get a guild, find some like minded friends and people, trust me, there's a lot of anti-elitists and then fail (or not) as many fractals as you want.5) As for your example, idiots are everywhere! Don't generalize. Most people will not ask for anything specific. I don't ask for anything specific. Only that you play well.But yeah, just yesterday, there was this Mirage on my group and a Reaper joined us, and the guy went "huh Reaper "dps"". I just said to my brother via Discord, "if this guy slips and the Reaper ever outdpses him we kick him out"! In the end the group ran well, we finished everything quickly, and although the Reaper did outdps the Mirage a couple times, everyone finished everything, because despite that initial quip, the guy behaved, and no one snagged the fractal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:My question is: Why are so many players only running raid builds nowadays? Well it may be due to these reasons:

If a group was running 99 and 100 CMs, I get it. It's nice to use the rehearsed raid meta and it does work well in CMs.

I think you answered your own question. The Meta works well, so people will use it.

Also, if you are going to put in the effort to make a build for T4 fractals, you might as well make that build raid viable, as that saves time and resources if you want to raid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:

Except it isn't true, and
everyone
says it.1) This
need x
happens since ever. It's how it works in every game. There has always been a Dungeon meta, a Fractal meta, a pvp meta, a WvW meta, actually the most recent meta was RAIDS, and they just carried out what was happening in Fractals and Dungeons....3) What do you care what other people want to run with? If i want to make a full necro party what's it with you? If what they ask doesn't fit your preference, it's easy
don't join
!...5) As for your example, idiots are everywhere! Don't generalize. Most people will not ask for anything specific. I don't ask for anything specific. Only that you play well.But yeah, just yesterday, there was this Mirage on my group and a Reaper joined us, and the guy went "huh Reaper "dps"". I just said to my brother via Discord, "if this guy slips and the Reaper ever outdpses him we kick him out"! In the end the group ran well, we finished everything quickly, and although the Reaper did outdps the Mirage a couple times, everyone finished everything, because despite that initial quip, the guy behaved, and no one snagged the fractal.

Pretty much there's to say and :lol: for the mirage and necro run lol.Back when there's only dungeons in GW2 : zerkers, stacked and lvl80s only even if its for a lvl30 dungeon run or be kicked. There is elitism players everywhere regardless of game, content etc. Just a fractal elitism scenario in this case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Meh. Don't like don't join. I too avoid LFG ads with a super intense list of requirements; it usually indicates a leader who is trying to cover for their own incompetence by being uptight and bossy. Even if they are competent, uptight and bossy is no fun to run dailies with.

"Food+pots" is the sweet spot for me; that lets in only those who have enough respect for everyone else's time to carry food, and enough experience/competence to have pots on hand one way or another.

I do also sometimes run ArcDPS, although I'm careful not to snark about people's scores; I'm just curious. It's also useful for identifying people running healing builds without telling anyone, which happens more than you might think. I'm all for diverse builds, BUT there should only be 1 healer per team; more is slowing down the group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Food+pots" is the sweet spot for me; that lets in only those who have enough respect for everyone else's time to carry food, and enough experience/competence to have pots on hand one way or another.

I like this idea. It's a good proxy for finding the sort of people that you'll have fun with. Might not work for everyone, but that's okay: you just need something that works for you.

During the heyday of dungeon elitism, a couple of people used to advertise with things like:

  • List your favorite color when you join or
  • What is 7x6? answer when you join

In both cases, they didn't care about the answer; they were just looking for people who actually read the party request. Maybe the person was good, maybe not; but they knew that the person would read chat and communicate when confused. And for many folks (including myself), that's more than enough, at least for dungeons & fractals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

For cases where "new" raid-like fractals (Twilight Oasis) are the dailies it's, basically, by design. They are meant to be for more organized groups and yes, bleed over from fractals into "need chrono and healer", so we get that. Random group can still do it, but requires more skilled players, who probably would rather have it done quickly than suffer through multiple wipes.

Easiest way is to just try and avoid particularly demanding groups and stick to Food/pots. In off hours any group LFGs are scarce these days so, might make sense to do a healing druid just for fractals and thus always be wanted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Rhiannon.1726" said:Be happy, in the past we had 4 ele, 1 warrior meta, now we have 1 druid, 1 chrono, 3 dps meta.

If you don't mind your group composition, just open the lfg and write "t4 daily". It will fill up fast.

There was always a meta and like in the past you can choose to ignore it.

And before that we had 1 mesmer 4 warrior cof p1 farming =)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:They are transposing from a raiding scenario to fractals because that's the only way they know how to play, in fact many raiders cant even comprehend pleasure from content for content sake, its all about the (efficiently gained) reward.

Ok, I have to respond to this because it's not clear to me what kind of content you mean. Here's how I understand it: Efficient groups play in a way that they don't have to deal with specific content. We skip trash mobs, we don't use fans at Old Tom, we don't let the Ice Elemental extinguish the camp fires, we don't let bosses get enraged, we don't use cooling rods for the heat room, we don't need 4 players to activate several consoles. Is that the kind of content you expect people to gain pleasure from? Would it offend you if a chrono shields the Ice Elemental and the camp fires stay lid? Or if I don't put any cooling rods into the consoles before I turn off the heat room?

Even at open world events like Triple Trouble, people block eggs so we can skip the content and don't have to deal with them. Is that the kind of stuff you get pleasure from and expect us to feel the same way?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...OP is clearly suffering some kind of delusion that every other person HAS to enjoy the game the same way as him. Personally, I've been really enjoying pugging fractals ever since the introduction of shattered observatory (along with the essences), because it lets me filter out the people exactly in a way I want to and play with people of similar skill level and mindset. I have absolutely no problem with people who struggle to understand mechanics or play their class - they have just as much right to play as I do, I am just glad they can do so somewhere else I can have my smooth daily runs where everybody understands their role even if nothing is explicitly said.Trying to force people of different levels of experience and skill play together will never end up nicely. Yeah sometimes I feel like helping out noobs and explaining mechanics to them patiently, but typically I want my smooth daily runs, because time is precious and I don't get any extra reward for carrying a team of newbies through the content.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tarasicodissa.7084 said:I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@Tarasicodissa.7084 said:I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Tarasicodissa.7084 said:I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

Not necessarily.However, if you start to opening threads and complaining because elitists play with other elitists and you can't achieve nothing because of them, you will simply show that you are a bad player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Tarasicodissa.7084 said:I've no idea why we're even discussing this anymore...

Because Bad players whine if they can't find a party, and also realize that if they start a new one it will probably be a failure becuase elitists will be playing with other elitits, which leaves only Bad players teamed up with Bad players.

Every Bad player will bring his class with its own equip, build and consumables, because they want to play the way the want, then they will end up failing fractals and raid and at last they will put the blame on someone else.

But the guilt is both their, because they didn't manage to learn the game in a proper way, and ANET's because they pushed towards a casual direction, feedind Bad players to a new level.

TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

Not necessarily.However, if you start to opening threads and complaining because elitists play with other elitists and you can't achieve nothing because of them, you will simply show that you are a bad player.

Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic

  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

The longer the fight, the worst.Even though you could still manage to accomplish your goal.

But if you could always manage to end the fight, why would be there so many threads like this one?To me, the scenario you propose is definitely real, but It's not the normal scenario from what I see.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Shirlias.8104" said:If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

You are actually forced into it. If for some reason you join a T3 Oasis or Shattered Observatory LFG, you better don't bring your meta dps class. At least 2 other players in your team will go full ranged defensive weirdo build and you and the other two meta build players have no chance of survival. So you are in a cage with those players who force you to do the same shit they do if you want even a slight chance of finishing the encounter. Once I was in such a run in T3 Uncategorized. At some point I realized I'll never convince them of a better way to handle this content, and that their way "works". It does work, but it's a way of blood, toil, tears and sweat. And I gave up and adjusted to their way for this run. These players trait for solo play when they enter fractals because they expect everybody else to do the same, and then you have 5 solo players doing content that was created for a 5 player team.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Shirlias.8104" said:If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

You are actually forced into it. If for some reason you join a T3 Oasis or Shattered Observatory LFG, you better don't bring your meta dps class. At least 2 other players in your team will go full ranged defensive weirdo build and you and the other two meta build players have no chance of survival. So you are in a cage with those players who force you to do the same kitten they do if you want even a slight chance of finishing the encounter. Once I was in such a run in T3 Uncategorized. At some point I realized I'll never convince them of a better way to handle this content, and that their way "works". It does work, but it's a way of blood, toil, tears and sweat. And I gave up and adjusted to their way for this run. These players trait for solo play when they enter fractals because they expect everybody else to do the same, and then you have 5 solo players doing content that was created for a 5 player team.

I talked about the possibility of making up a party or joining one pug not meta one.I didn't say a thing about the outcome.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:The player base in general has been clearing fractals with ease for years, the rest is easy to work out. Raider are addicted to speed runs because its 'efficient' but in reality its how they play raids because you need progress in a night. They are transposing from a raiding scenario to fractals because that's the only way they know how to play, in fact many raiders cant even comprehend pleasure from content for content sake, its all about the (efficiently gained) reward.

Put it this way, imaging playing an RPG board game with a group of friends at home - efficiency is not where the pleasure comes from, and yet online with strangers suddenly it is..

The playerbase isn't the same. Like I said already, the experienced players effectively moved to a higher tier (t4+cm). As a result, the average skill/experience level in T4 groups declined. It's a very real effect.

You have a point about raiders preferring to play efficiently, but you're misinterpreting it. It's not about speed for speed's sake alone. There's certain enjoyment in this gameplay, in doing everything right, making it 'click' and demolishing the content. It's about perfection. So we, too, are playing for pleasure. We just find it elsewhere. There isn't right or wrong way to have fun, they are both right for the right people.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shirlias.8104 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

The longer the fight, the worst.Even though you could still manage to accomplish your goal.

But if you could always manage to end the fight, why would be there so many threads like this one?To me, the scenario you propose is definitely real, but It's not the normal scenario from what I see.

What you are presenting here is exactly the elitism OP is talking about. Your way of thinking is "so what he completed the content, he didn't do it proper (my) way".

He completed the content - this is exactly the reason why his way is as good as yours. Slower? Maybe. But as long as he succeeds, it's good.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

The longer the fight, the worst.Even though you could still manage to accomplish your goal.

But if you could always manage to end the fight, why would be there so many threads like this one?To me, the scenario you propose is definitely real, but It's not the normal scenario from what I see.

What you are presenting here is exactly the elitism OP is talking about. Your way of thinking is "so what he completed the content, he didn't do it proper (my) way".

He completed the content - this is exactly the reason why his way is as good as yours. Slower? Maybe. But as long as he succeeds, it's good.

You're missing the point.

I don't care if you completed the content. I care if I had fun doing it. And if I'm not having fun, then it ISN'T the proper way for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

The longer the fight, the worst.Even though you could still manage to accomplish your goal.

But if you could always manage to end the fight, why would be there so many threads like this one?To me, the scenario you propose is definitely real, but It's not the normal scenario from what I see.

What you are presenting here is exactly the elitism OP is talking about. Your way of thinking is "so what he completed the content, he didn't do it proper (my) way".

He completed the content - this is exactly the reason why his way is as good as yours. Slower? Maybe. But as long as he succeeds, it's good.

I don't get your point.You managed to Clear the content with a different build, and now you are browsing gw2 lfg... Then What happens?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A non-issue. It is not the raids leaking into fractals. It is just an evolution of the zerk meta from dungeons.

Raid META builds actually work for fractals as well. So less experienced people prefer to follow it to save time. It is not required and if you make your own non meta configured LFG it will fill in 2 minutes. Just like the old dungeons that constantly saw zerk parties or just like near HOT launch that you were constantly seeing 4 ripper 1 healer parties, yet you could still make you own party fill it up immediately and move on.

It is a game. Optimal play will emerge and many people will prefer to go for the optimal even if unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. Every game will have the same evolution. Even in chess you find the same dynamics with standard plays and openings. It is not a real issue.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...