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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@Shirlias.8104 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:@Shirlias.8104 said:If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply
expect
people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

Or maybe you didn't understand my post?

So were you supporting what i stated in a not so proper way?You basically stated what i said previously, and in that part of the quoted message too.

...Dude, i wasn't replying to you, i was replying to Kheldorn saying you already had stated your DPS check, as in your time restrictions...Reading comprehension much?

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I was confused because it was not a dps check, since the equipment is not necessarily related to skill ( especially here in GW2, i would say ), but now I understand what you consider about DPS check ( which is not ).

To explain things better:

When you want to do fractals or raid you have some ways to make you up your party of elitists as you:

  • Equipment check
  • LI ( if raid )
  • Class/Build Check
  • Eventually Title
  • Etc...

But you can't be totally sure that the one you allowed to join your group is performant because

  • It could have been boosted ( pay for runs )
  • It could have been carried ( not so skilled but lucky to find good groups ).
  • It could be skilled, but not with this class which is new for him ( even though he has the right build/equipment ).

Eventually, you will have to kick him and looking for someone else ( it's a possibility, if the one you invited sucks ).

That's why when i talk about the right

  • Class
  • Build
  • Equip
  • Consumables
  • Etc...

I mean that there are some ways to limit the RNG ( the player's skill and knowledge ).

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.

Pugs want a druid because it removes errors from the group in the off chance of a wipe.If we are talking time efficiency in clears the best comp is chrono and 4 dps.

I get the chrono and druid in pugs but BS has not been meta in pugs since the nerf. It is actually a dps loss to run that over an Ele, Holo or DH in that slot.

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals. Yes, playing efficiently may be faster, if whole team understands and follows this concept. But playing slower is also proper way as long as you don't fail mechanics and manage to kill the boss.This is the DPS check for him, and it's also the DPS check for most people:@Shirlias.8104 said:If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.Not everyone has the whole day to cater to people who don't want to play efficiently. No one's forcing anyone to play meta builds. But if i want to do T4+recs in one hour (because that's usually the time i have to play before reset), then i don't want to have a Knight's Elementalist dragging the group down.I don't even care for classes or check builds, or even see if they have the right food or anything. I simply
expect
people to want to be efficient. If they don't, and the group starts failing encounters too often, then, yes, i vote to kick.I shouldn't be hindered from completing content because someone doesn't want to be on par with the requirements of the content.

You probably quoted the wrong person or didn't understand the part you quoted.

Or maybe you didn't understand my post?@"Kheldorn.5123" was saying that there isn't a DPS check in fractals. I was saying that the fact you had already said you wanted to complete fractals in under 30 minutes, that is
the dps check
. People ask for meta builds, even in raids, because of time constraints, not really because it's impossible to do without.

I don't think it's about time constraints that much. It just isn't fun to wipe over and over again on the same content you've completed smoothly time and again.

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Elitism never caught up on dungeons, they will not catch up in fractalsThere are more laid back groups than themThey will be waiting considerably longer or end up with trolls sabotaging their runs ( its what ppl used to do back in the day, need a vote to kick right?? good luck)

Eventually they will regress to their guilds and leave randoms alone

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Yes, unfortunately raiders are bleeding into fractals. This is because raids are weekly content and they have nothing else to do polluting more laid back modes with their unwanted attitudes.

There a pretty ez fix to said problem. Make your own group :D

Unless I got as at least 3 man premade, what stops other players from highjacking my party?

That works both ways.

Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Nobody stops them.

Exactly. That's the problem. Game needs party leader system. So people actually have control over who they play with.

Sure why not

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@"JVJD.4912" said:Elitism never caught up on dungeons, they will not catch up in fractalsThere are more laid back groups than themThey will be waiting considerably longer or end up with trolls sabotaging their runs ( its what ppl used to do back in the day, need a vote to kick right?? good luck)

Eventually they will regress to their guilds and leave randoms alone

You understand that even when i ask for specific classes/builds it very rarely takes longer than 5 minutes to fill a spot, right?"Elitist" groups fill quite fast if the people in there aren't jerks.Its more likely that you make a group with an "alternate build" and start a fractal only to get all the "elitists" leaving the group after 2 attempts because "someone" is dragging them down.

Also, you do realize that you'd go to LFG for CoF and you'd have like 5 parties asking for full zerker warriors ONLY. It was way more toxic, cancerous and elitist than fractals have ever been.

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@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

Ever heard of guard having wall of reflections, for example? Sometimes it's sad to see people not knowing their classes properly. Every class has huge potential for different encounters and basic skills from pre-HoT are still working, quelle surprise!And yeah, skilled players are able to kill bosses without relying on a healer in T4 and they are not always organized.

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How is a 5 man comp taken from raids? Fractals meta has come about completely independent of raids. The builds like chrono and druid are just the strongest builds for PvE team play in that they give the most boons/buffs/utility per slot of that comp. So naturally a 5 man comp will want them. With that being said, fractals are becoming more like raids as the new fractals that are coming out with raid-like mechanics such as break bars and certain-person-gets-the-bomb it becomes more apparent that people need to know their roles. Anet seems to support more elitism in fractals now, so if you don't then the lfg for non comped t4 groups and recommendeds still exist for casuals

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@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals.

BAZING.... Actually 100cm has a dps check. :^)

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

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@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:If t4 groups are wiping it is not due to that one person running an alternate build. Just saying.

Then try to do Volcanic or Mai Trin with 4 dps and one healer who doesn't heal. Good luck.

LOL i'd say more, try and do the cat golem on Uncategorized without tears with that group. Or a quick burn of the berzerker in molten boss without a healer and quickness.Alternate builds might work, but it's simply going to take too long.> @Sister Saxifrage.7361 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Show me cases of power necros joining meta LFGs and changing description or kicking players for not playing power necros.

Maybe not that, but my guild mates and me have kicked wannabe elitists from our group. We expect you to know your stuff and have pots and food, that's it. We got a guy who was trying to take over our group and making demands and playing this whole alpha-thing. I explained to him that he and us doesn't work because he's trying to take over the group and we do this every day together and that we are happy like this. Then we kicked him. I think we didn't ask for a chrono or so, and he insisted we need one.

Are you seriously asking for food in a non-meta party?

Absolutely. It doesn't have to be Hoity Toity Multiple Gold Per Hour BiS Raid Food, but it does have to be enough to show you take your part seriously. It's a gesture of respect for the time of the 4 other people in the party. Same with pots.

So is joining a group according to what they are asking. Or not, if it's not what they are asking.Also making sure your build can at least bring something to a group is also a gesture of respect to the rest of the group. I mean, i could definitely go in with food, omnipotion, and bring a guy with full greens. I could definitely pull of surviving Agony in most fractals, since most of the old ones have very well defined sources of Agony that can be blocked/dodged. And yet i'd be doing a disservice to the group.Same thing if i take like a Knight's build on a DH or something. Sure i won't die, and will stick around, but will probably not be doing that much in terms of damage.I'm all up for alternate builds. But make sure they work!

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

That has less to do with the minstrel Thief in your group and more to do with people not knowing anything about their class or the fractal specific mechanics which was the entire point of my post.

I have run t4's with so many unoptimal builds across all specs in the game and have yet to wipe purely because dps was "too low".

@ReaverKane.7598 said:LOL i'd say more, try and do the cat golem on Uncategorized without tears with that group. Or a quick burn of the berzerker in molten boss without a healer and quickness.

You can cheese that entire fight with zero with a single necro and flesh wurm. 5 ele's were meta on molten boss for a long time until it got mega nerfed about a year ago.

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@Vulf.3098 said:

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

That has less to do with the minstrel Thief in your group and more to do with people not knowing anything about their class or the fractal specific mechanics which was the entire point of my post.

I have run t4's with so many unoptimal builds across all specs in the game and have yet to wipe purely because dps was "too low".

A lot of times you don't understand that you're wiping because pvp is too low... Because there's nothing saying oh, time's up.But there's stuff like cumulative damage from bosses, or add spawns, etc that will make your run harder the longer you're there. For example, the longer you take to phase the boss on Twilight Oasis, the longer you'll have to deal with the damage mechanics in there, and the easier it is for someone to mess up, and, especially with vindicators errors will compound and kill everyone.

But yeah, i said it before the bigger problem is that it will make it take longer. And honestly, if a guy thinks it's a good idea to take a minstrel's Thief... Well then he's probably the same guy that doesn't really know his class, and will - like you said yourself - mess everything up.Because you know what happens if you really know your class? And want to make the most out of it's strengths? You'll end up with a build that's either the meta build, or something really close.Sure you might think Assassin's or Soldier's instead of berzerker's, but overall you'll most likely end up with the same build. And yeah, a Soldier's DragonHunter won't do as much damage as a Berzerker's. But it probably will do enough to not be a hinderance, if he knows his class.

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@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:You'd be amazed how one person can make a huge difference.I mean, if you have 3 dpsers on a group 2 are doing barely good damage, and one is doing lower than he should, then the group eventually will wipe. Or at least take 3x as long as it should.

You can wipe 10 times in a row, kick one guy and you can make it. I've actually finished bosses with 4 after wiping several times with 5 (granted, this has less to do with build but more with knowledge of mechanics, but AR also is there to try and force people to acquire that knowledge).If the healer has to stop every 5 seconds to ress a guy getting down, if you have someone messing mechanics up (like drawing mai trin away from the electric field), etc. It'll be faster without them.

That has less to do with the minstrel Thief in your group and more to do with people not knowing anything about their class or the fractal specific mechanics which was the entire point of my post.

I have run t4's with so many unoptimal builds across all specs in the game and have yet to wipe purely because dps was "too low".

A lot of times you don't understand that you're wiping because pvp is too low... Because there's nothing saying oh, time's up.But there's stuff like cumulative damage from bosses, or add spawns, etc that will make your run harder the longer you're there. For example, the longer you take to phase the boss on Twilight Oasis, the longer you'll have to deal with the damage mechanics in there, and the easier it is for someone to mess up, and, especially with vindicators errors will compound and kill everyone.

But yeah, i said it before the bigger problem is that it will make it take longer. And honestly, if a guy thinks it's a good idea to take a minstrel's Thief... Well then he's probably the same guy that doesn't really know his class, and will - like you said yourself - mess everything up.Because you know what happens if you really know your class? And want to make the most out of it's strengths? You'll end up with a build that's either
the
meta build, or something really close.Sure you might think Assassin's or Soldier's instead of berzerker's, but overall you'll most likely end up with the same build. And yeah, a Soldier's DragonHunter won't do as much damage as a Berzerker's. But it probably will do enough to not be a hinderance,
if he knows his class
.

Mechanics before Dps. Minstrel Thief was an example that one bad build is not going to suddenly make t4's impossible so lets not pretend it does. Not saying you should or shouldn't run meta because that is your own decision.

As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

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@Vulf.3098 said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

Well done :)Which emphasizes the on-topic point: knowing the mechanics is more important than the team comp or anyone's build. There might be elitist LFGs, but people can ignore them and join/start groups that care more about other things. Either way of running the content is fine; the problems only start when someone insists on imposing their way on others.

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@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

Well done :)Which emphasizes the on-topic point: knowing the mechanics is more important than the team comp or anyone's build. There might be elitist LFGs, but people can ignore them and join/start groups that care more about other things. Either way of running the content is fine; the problems only start when someone insists on imposing their way on others.

I'm reminded by an argument by metapushers about 4 years ago ... where some of them soloed Arah Dungeon with a Bow bear in some defensive gear. Somehow, they were all proud of 'proving' how important meta was by this little demonstration. A pretty self-gratifying smirk come over my face; Oh yes, way to demonstrate the necessity of meta ... by soloing the hardest content (at the time) with the worst possible build :expressionless:

Seems we are seeing a little of this with some posters in this thread; indeed what you say is correct, mechanics trumps build, always. The metapushers already proved that (at their own expense, which only made the point sweeter)

Elitism will not go away; it's how players handle it and how they interact with elitist players that will help avoid it. I'm all for these players; after all, they are just playing how they want, just like anyone else should be.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:As for Twilight Oasis I have solo'd it a couple times already first with Trailblazer Necro with Aristocracy Runes and again with Vipers + Aristocracy.

Well done :)Which emphasizes the on-topic point: knowing the mechanics is more important than the team comp or anyone's build. There might be elitist LFGs, but people can ignore them and join/start groups that care more about other things. Either way of running the content is fine; the problems only start when someone insists on imposing their way on others.

I'm reminded by an argument by metapushers about 4 years ago ... where some of them soloed Arah Dungeon with a Bow bear in some defensive gear. Somehow, they were all proud of 'proving' how important meta was by this little demonstration. A pretty self-gratifying smirk come over my face; Oh yes, way to demonstrate the necessity of meta ... by soloing the hardest content (at the time) with the worst possible build :expressionless:

Seems we are seeing a little of this with some posters in this thread; indeed what you say is correct, mechanics trumps build, always. The metapushers already proved that (at their own expense, which only made the point sweeter)

Elitism will not go away; it's how players handle it and how they interact with elitist players that will help avoid it. I'm all for these players; after all, they are just playing how they want, just like anyone else should be.

Most of the bosses in Arah were buggy as hell back then (Belka, Lupi, and Brie still are) to where you could exploit ability stacking into specific spots or instantly kill them with reflects.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:Ever heard of guard having wall of reflections, for example? Sometimes it's sad to see people not knowing their classes properly. Every class has huge potential for different encounters and basic skills from pre-HoT are still working, quelle surprise!

There was a time when reflect skills are highly valued. Nowadays I'm just grateful too see one used in fractal. And yes, it's sad to see when a player doesn't realize the potential of the class can offer or understanding the mechanics to adapt according to situation. Lucky ones get pointers or guidance, but majority will just be left alone and hope they realize it through exp.

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@Blood.5607 said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Not at all. You are implying without verification that complaining about elitism = I don't want to or can't play efficiently

Nope i don't.What i am saying is that most of the times people who don't play in a proper way tend to fail.

Let's say that you have 100 out of 100 chances of success with a party with meta builds ( given the fact that players skill is the same ).

numbers are just random. just follow the logic
  • If 1 out of 5 decide to bring a tanky build, let's say that the chances drops to 90 out of 100.
  • If then another player decide to play ranged dps instead of melee, dropping his DPS from X to Y, the the chances will eventually drop from 90 to 85.
  • If you don't have a full meta socketed equip + consumables, then obviously you will deal less damage even if you have the metabuild and stats needed, which brings the chanced down from 85 to 80.

And so on.Given the most easiest way, the more you modify it, the harder the encounter becomes.

And remember the most important thing.If i have 30 mins and i want to make some fractal runs, i don't care if you are performant even with a different build.I will play my meta and i will joing others with meta builds.

And it's only a matter of time and efficiency.

If somebody is playing with friends or simply other players who don't care about builds and equipment and consumables and infusions ( given the time obviously ) then there's the possibility that he decides to use a non meta build.

In your message proper = efficient. But the reality is, that there are no dps checks in fractals.

BAZING.... Actually 100cm has a dps check. :^)

100cm is by design made into 5-man raid. We are talking about standard T4s in pug environment here :)

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