Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Astralporing.1957]

Raiders are not necessarily most dedicated players. They are simply people that prefer playing in one very specific way.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raiders are not necessarily most dedicated players. They are simply people that prefer playing in one very specific way.

the same can be said about any game mode, so what's exactly the point you're trying to make?

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Raiders are not necessarily most dedicated players. They are simply people that prefer playing in one very specific way.

It's not about raiders. It takes dedication to get Aurora as well. Or Ad Infinitum. Or Warbringer. Or any legendary, really. That's the point. They all aren't accessible, they all require considerable effort and time in the game. Some are intended for playing one specific way, others are intended for a different specific way. Again, that's not wrong, that's the sensible way to structure your game rewards.

[Ayakaru.6583]

I raid, and for me it’s fine as is. That said, I would also like a ‘normal’ mode for either practicing mechanics without a slipup being a wipe, or experiencing the story with friends who can’t raid high-end.In such a case I wouldn’t be harmed by a lesser mode with lesser rewards. But simultaneously, the ‘normal’ mode should yield less gold, and no LI’s or Magnetite shards since those are truly rewards for the challenge

[lunaeclipse.6843]

So I voted for raids being fine as they are but let me expand on this, please:

Ideally yes I would be all for having tiers for every boss, but with accounting for previous statements from anet I don't believe its possible at this point to convince them, or the community for that matter.

I think the best solution at this is to have more bosses like w4 (or easier) and also more bosses like Dhuum.

And just for some credentials, I have 300+ LI with 4/6 pieces of legendary armor (I'm gated by my lack of gold atm).

There are some really good points here, I think. I don't think its even debatable at this point that the raiding community needs more players. But there needs to be a way to get more players into it. I mean, I went thru the process of scarse training raids to eventually get where I am now, but it was a painful process. I don't think other people should have to endure said process I went through. It's demoralizing and I can see how/why it would turn many people away from raiding.

I believe a wider variety of boss difficulties is the best solution, even if its like 1 easy boss (not encounter) per wing with 1 super difficult boss as well.

If that makes sense?

[Bladestrom.6425]

raids in their current format are designed for those that want the rote style fights that demands practice and stable grouping. the vast vast majority of GW2 players are either not interested or do not have the time to do this, so it is evident that the content is currently wasteful. Now if you added an easy mode as well as the existing mode, suddenly you have value for money for your raids, a natural progression from dungeons and a natural training mechanism for people to learn fights so they can actually join normal mode raids and know what to do if thats what they want to o. Its an obvious win win that could be cost efficient as well. There is actually no drawback to a raid easy mode, because this is not WOW where everyone feels compelled to do the easy mode to 'keep up'.

[Tyson.5160]

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I raid, and for me it’s fine as is. That said, I would also like a ‘normal’ mode for either practicing mechanics without a slipup being a wipe, or experiencing the story with friends who can’t raid high-end.In such a case I wouldn’t be harmed by a lesser mode with lesser rewards. But simultaneously, the ‘normal’ mode should yield less gold, and no LI’s or Magnetite shards since those are truly rewards for the challenge

You could still reward LI, however make it so you get a single LI for a full wing clear, which would make it 5 LI a week, at that rate if someone wanted to grind the easy mode Raids it would take em 7 and a half months. Which may encourage the normal which if you clear each wing now is just over 2 months. You could also provide small magnetite shard rewards as well. Essentially your giving people a taste of the content, which may bring more people into the content.

[Lanfear.1259]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:I voted for both modes. I don't raid at all and the biggest reason is because of time. I don't have the time to give to a raid. That's ok, I've accepted it, but I still would at least love to see the content at some point. I think easy mode would help here.

I agree with this. I am a casual player and feel left out of raids. I would love to see the content and stories that take place in the raids. If there was a way to view the story lines without raiding that would be a wonderful way to keep up to date with what's going on in the world. As a GW1 player I was excited about the idea of going back to the underworld and seeing Dhuum but was so disappointed when I realized that story was locked behind raids.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Teaching players mechanics in an easy mode raids would be FANTASTIC for these reasons:

• They stay long enough to learn mechanics because they aren't getting exhausted and leaving from one discouraging wipe after another.
• Players don't even need to pass the hard gate of finding a raid crew that wants to teach them because raids will be learnable with PUG groups on easy mode.
• All of this in turn brings more players into raids.
• Once players have a general grasp on mechanics when everything is dealing half the damage or w/e, they can choose to graduate to hard raids.
• Now we have many more players who want to raid, who are able to raid and it didn't take ridiculous amounts of painful effort to teach them on hard mode.

win win win win win

[Zephire.8049]

We need an easy (or at least easier) mode in addition to what we have now.

I would love to see the raiding content and story, but I've done my share of raiding in the past in other games, and I can safely say GW2 raiding in its current form is not for me. I have no desire to sit around for over an hour just for a raid to start, and then waiting 5-15 minutes between wipes as people talk or AFK or rage. Throw in the elitism and how if you aren't already experienced and running a meta build, you have to rely on out-of-game methods to try to even find a group, and it's too much of a pain for too small a reward. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

Raids take so much dev time to create and feature stories that very few people get to actually experience. Even if you get in, there's so much focus on not dying or wiping the group, there's not much time to be able to focus on or appreciate the lore.

Arenanet advertised GW2 as not your standard MMO, yet raids in their current form is what raids were like in MMOs 10 years ago. And the thing is, since that time 10 years ago, many companies have changed raiding to be more accessible as sinking a large amount of resources into content less than ~15% of plays have the ability to see isn't an ideal situation and ends up feeding into toxicity. By all means have a hard mode with good loot and exclusive skins, but there's no reason not to have a simpler mode so people can actually see and experience raids and the lore locked behind them.

[flog.3485]

No the the raids don't need difficulty tiers.

The standard MMO design GW2 has evaded for some years now have never advertised raids being a required step for players to get into. That is what makes its uniqueness in comparison to other MMO like FF14 or WoW where you find difficulty tiers because players are forced/pushed into that direction. But the thing is, in these games, players are not really playing raids as they are intented to be that endgame difficult content since they can stick to a dumbed down version of this content.

Pushing more resources into raid design is a waste of opportunity that can better be spent elsewhere like open world content and/or fractals imo.

I don't see the point of pushing people into easier tiers of raids in a game that allows a player to get the best tier of gear and shiny skins without setting foot in instanced group content.

All it will do, if it ever happens, is making the players farm the easy mode and let them complain that is not much reward to go for because the truth is the game as a whole doesn't need much reward to go for to be enjoyed and played as mid tier rewards, except for fractals. And since it would be easy mode, most players will find ways to complete it without a group of 10 people, which would be a waste because the idea of easy mode would be to progress as a group through all difficulty tiers of every encounters.

As for story purposes, I tend to feel like story raids are generally seen as amazing only because they feel exclusive.

Edit:What the game really needs is new guild group content. Maybe it would be worth looking for guild content that could tell about raid stories through guild upgrades.

[Tyson.5160]

I went back and took a boo at the old wow forums before LFR was introduced and it’s a very scary parallel. In certain cases, you couldn’t really tell a difference between the two as the posts were mainly the same between the two games using almost the same arguments.

[Vulf.3098]

@"Tyson.5160" said:I went back and took a boo at the old wow forums before LFR was introduced and it’s a very scary parallel. In certain cases, you couldn’t really tell a difference between the two as the posts were mainly the same between the two games using almost the same arguments.

The idea of LFR was fine in WoW but the implementation was not. The current Normal raid mode should have been what LFR was not the "Afk for 15 minutes and get free items" mode it is now.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

(I meant to vote for Easy+Hard.)

I freakin' loved LFR in WoW; I was its target audience. I just wanted to see the content and feel like a big damn hero killing the big bads - once each. I kept going back because the rewards were the best intersection of quality and achievability for me.

I think the SAB model is a good one: Infantile mode where you see all the content and get a small reward that is still enough to keep coming back, Normal mode as-is, and Tribulation mode where everything is turned up to 11 and the phat loot becomes morbidly obese loot - probably exclusive skins and titles rather than just obscene wealth, as I can see the latter causing economy problems.

I think whatever gets more people playing is always good for the game. If players less skilled than you getting boss kills and nonzero loot makes you feel butthurt, consider that at least some of them will take an interest in the higher difficulty modes and bolster your ever-shrinking toxic puddle of warm bodies.

I'm not sure why there is so much opposition to the idea of tiered raid content, when there are FOUR tiers of fractals (five if you count CMs) and they are a rip-roaring success.

[Durzlla.6295]

In my opinion, if we’re going to go with the “we have raids option” we need to have a variety of difficulties, I personally think an easy mode is needed more than a hard mode so that casual players would have a way to both experience the content, and be able to learn the mechanics in an easier and less “stressful” environment.

I personally thought the raids as is aren’t all that difficult, at lesst the limited amount I’ve managed to do via puging, and can absolutely see the appeal for a harder difficulty.

[Rhiannon.1726]

I wouldn’t mind an easy mode, but I don’t see any reason for anet to make one:When it is too easy, people would play it once to see the story and than abandon it like the dungeon story modes. It also couldn’t be used as “training”.When it is just a little bit easier, many people would still complain that it is too difficult. Just look at the complaints about t4 fractals.

For some bosses an “easy mode” for training wouldn’t even make sense:Escort: Make it easier and you’ll get an open world escort event.Cairn: Make it easier and you could just go to the golem with the same result.MO: Make it easier and you could just go to the golem with the same result.Gorseval: There are hardly any mechanics (use Entangle and dodge a few times). You just need decent dps. Make it easier and you could just go to the golem with the same result.

VG and Gorseval are already made like training:For VG you have the three guards that show you the mechanics. In the first phase you don’t have to move, than you have to move a bit and in the last phase you have to move fast.For Gorseval you first have to do just dps, than you have to do dps and destroy some orbs and in the last phase you have additional orange circles (twice) to dodge.

-> You first master the first phase and than you go on. I don’t see a reason to make an easy mode which maybe would be the same as the first phase. You wouldn’t learn anything that you also could learn in the current raid.

BTW Cairn and MO die in 2-5 min depending on the group. When you make it easier (by reducing hp and/or mechanics) you’ll get two boring stationary bosses who’ll die in maybe 1-3 min. Even t1 fractals are more interesting than that.Why would anyone play that more than once and why should Anet invest time and money into it? The pof bounties are more difficult and give better loot.

[ReaverKane.7598]

I voted let it stay as is. Because the problem isn't raids, it's player mentality.Fractals have T1-T4 (so very easy, easy, medium, hard) an still people complain about elitism and other similar nonsense. So while i think a "story mode" raid would be an interesting thing, it will never solve anything because there will always be people that want the best rewards at no effort, because they're "entitled".The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content. Well, short of pointing a gun at their heads, if they can't be bothered, the won't be bothered.

[Tyson.5160]

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:I voted let it stay as is. Because the problem isn't raids, it's player mentality.Fractals have T1-T4 (so very easy, easy, medium, hard) an still people complain about elitism and other similar nonsense. So while i think a "story mode" raid would be an interesting thing, it will never solve anything because there will always be people that want the best rewards at no effort, because they're "entitled".The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content. Well, short of pointing a gun at their heads, if they can't be bothered, the won't be bothered.

People complain about T1 Fractals?

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:I voted let it stay as is. Because the problem isn't raids, it's player mentality.Fractals have T1-T4 (so very easy, easy, medium, hard) an

still

people complain about elitism and other similar nonsense. So while i think a "story mode" raid would be an interesting thing, it will never solve anything because there will always be people that want the best rewards at no effort, because they're "entitled".The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content. Well, short of pointing a gun at their heads, if they can't be bothered, the won't be bothered.

People complain about T1 Fractals?

No, they complain they can't do T4. If the objective of having easy mode raids is to get people that can't do "normal" go do easy, it doesn't work. Because Fractals has "easy mode" and people still complain.

[Tyson.5160]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:I voted let it stay as is. Because the problem isn't raids, it's player mentality.Fractals have T1-T4 (so very easy, easy, medium, hard) an

still

people complain about elitism and other similar nonsense. So while i think a "story mode" raid would be an interesting thing, it will never solve anything because there will always be people that want the best rewards at no effort, because they're "entitled".The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content. Well, short of pointing a gun at their heads, if they can't be bothered, the won't be bothered.

People complain about T1 Fractals?

No, they complain they can't do T4. If the objective of having easy mode raids is to get people that can't do "normal" go do easy, it doesn't work. Because Fractals has "easy mode" and people still complain.

Doesn’t it though? If we only had T4 fractals there would be less people in fractals.

The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content.

Not sure if we can put all people into this category.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:I voted let it stay as is. Because the problem isn't raids, it's player mentality.Fractals have T1-T4 (so very easy, easy, medium, hard) an

still

people complain about elitism and other similar nonsense. So while i think a "story mode" raid would be an interesting thing, it will never solve anything because there will always be people that want the best rewards at no effort, because they're "entitled".The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content. Well, short of pointing a gun at their heads, if they can't be bothered, the won't be bothered.

People complain about T1 Fractals?

No, they complain they can't do T4. If the objective of having easy mode raids is to get people that can't do "normal" go do easy, it doesn't work. Because Fractals has "easy mode" and people still complain.

Doesn’t it though? If we only had T4 fractals there would be less people in fractals.

The first paragraph of the OP says it all... They can't be bothered to even try and put some effort into participating in Raids, but somehow, their own lack of interest and effort shouldn't exclude them from doing the content.

Not sure if we can put all people into this category.

Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

Well, there's 4 types of attitudes towards high difficulty content:

• People that want to do it, invest the time and money to be able to do them, and then are labelled Elitists by the second group;
• People that want to do it, but want to do it in their terms not the terms dictated by the requirements of the content. Those are the people that complain and make "suggestions" in forums about Elitism and the likes.
• People that want to do it, but are discouraged by the opinions of the second group creating a false expectation of the content towards how hard it is to do it, how bad their reception in their community will be, etc. These eventually either try it and learn that it isn't the 3 headed monster some people claim it to be, others are entirely discouraged and join the last group;
• People that don't care about it, and won't touch it regardless of any changes or incentives.

[Astralporing.1957]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

1. it would stop some of them.
2. it might bring more people to the mode(also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game changing. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about increase of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about increase of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

So, apples and oranges.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

1. it would stop
   some
   of them.
2. it might bring more people to the mode(also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game

changing

. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about

increase

of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about

increase

of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

So, apples and oranges.

1. I doubt it. Seriously, anyone that's serious enough about raids will, sooner or later, be doing raids with or without the higher difficulty, especially since some of them are quite easy already. Escort, for example, is easier than any T4 fractal, and is a good way to introduce people to raids, get the masteries, and some of the rewards.
2. See above.
3. Yes, that was a brain fart, i meant raids.

Not really, there's always been complains. The thing is, people decided to hate on raids, and since that's a dead horse if there is one, the same forum warriros started veering towards fractals. The heart of those complaints is always the same. People want to take their open world barely effective builds (seriously you can always spot the guys with fractal/raid gear in World bosses/encounters, because they have 50% of the DPS) to what's supposed to be hard content. And when they fail, or people get tired of carrying those people and kick them, they complain.

Raids is the same thing, and again, while it would be nice to have a "Raids Light", kind of like Dungeon Story Modes, i seriously doubt it would make a dent on people complaining and whatnot, because the true rewards would always be behind the content they can't complete because they can't bring themselves to try and improve their game.

Also i'd argue that the increase in toxicity and elitism in fractals, is actually not a thing? If anything atm fractals are way more chill than they were at various periods in the game.

[Tyson.5160]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

1. it would stop
   some
   of them.
2. it might bring more people to the mode(also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game

changing

. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about

increase

of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about

increase

of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

So, apples and oranges.

1. I doubt it. Seriously, anyone that's serious enough about raids will, sooner or later, be doing raids with or without the higher difficulty, especially since some of them are quite easy already. Escort, for example, is easier than any T4 fractal, and is a good way to introduce people to raids, get the masteries, and some of the rewards.
2. See above.
3. Yes, that was a brain fart, i meant raids.

Not really, there's always been complains. The thing is, people decided to hate on raids, and since that's a dead horse if there is one, the same forum warriros started veering towards fractals. The heart of those complaints is always the same. People want to take their open world barely effective builds (seriously you can always spot the guys with fractal/raid gear in World bosses/encounters, because they have 50% of the DPS) to what's supposed to be hard content. And when they fail, or people get tired of carrying those people and kick them, they complain.

Raids is the same thing, and again, while it would be nice to have a "Raids Light", kind of like Dungeon Story Modes, i seriously doubt it would make a dent on people complaining and whatnot, because the true rewards would always be behind the content they can't complete because they can't bring themselves to try and improve their game.

Also i'd argue that the

increase

in toxicity and elitism in fractals, is actually not a thing? If anything atm fractals are way more chill than they were at various periods in the game.

Having the easier mode may help them improve their game though, by introducing them to the mechanics.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Dude... Seriously?If the fact that you already have a easy mode for Fractals doesn't stop people from complaining about fractals difficulty/elitism, then a easy mode for dungeons surely won't stop people from complaining about the same things for dungeons....

1. it would stop
   some
   of them.
2. it might bring more people to the mode(also, you meand raids instead of dungeons, right?)

Also, notice, that complains about elitism in fractals are a relatively new thing (at least to the degree we're seeing now). They are a result of the game

changing

. Before that, almost all the complains about difficulty of high-tier fractals were targetting very specific mechanics (like, for example, the clown car dredge fight), and not in general (like being too difficult), but for more specific reasons (in te clow car case because it was too long and too boring).

Basically, the complains now are not affected by existence of lower tiers, because they are not exactly complains about t4 difficulty. They are complains about

increase

of t4 difficulty. They are not about existence of elitism in high tier fractals. They are about

increase

of elitism and toxicity in high-tier fractals.

So, apples and oranges.

1. I doubt it. Seriously, anyone that's serious enough about raids will, sooner or later, be doing raids with or without the higher difficulty, especially since some of them are quite easy already. Escort, for example, is easier than any T4 fractal, and is a good way to introduce people to raids, get the masteries, and some of the rewards.
2. See above.
3. Yes, that was a brain fart, i meant raids.

Not really, there's always been complains. The thing is, people decided to hate on raids, and since that's a dead horse if there is one, the same forum warriros started veering towards fractals. The heart of those complaints is always the same. People want to take their open world barely effective builds (seriously you can always spot the guys with fractal/raid gear in World bosses/encounters, because they have 50% of the DPS) to what's supposed to be hard content. And when they fail, or people get tired of carrying those people and kick them, they complain.

Raids is the same thing, and again, while it would be nice to have a "Raids Light", kind of like Dungeon Story Modes, i seriously doubt it would make a dent on people complaining and whatnot, because the true rewards would always be behind the content they can't complete because they can't bring themselves to try and improve their game.

Also i'd argue that the

increase

in toxicity and elitism in fractals, is actually not a thing? If anything atm fractals are way more chill than they were at various periods in the game.

Having the easier mode may help them improve their game though, by introducing them to the mechanics.

I'm not contesting that, or am i opposed to a easy mode, in fact i'm in favour. My only point is that, unlike people have offered, it won't stop people from complaining, just like T1 Fractals don't do the same for Fractals.