Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[Faaris.8013]

@"Evellynn Capone.6584" said:U done handful of Runs uhm... nice to hear but how long are u playin Fractals? Thie Meta exists before Fractal Change and u have to know about your "handful runs". Its not hard to find Casual Groups for Fractals (maybe 5 - 10 mins waiting and the Group is full). PPL wont waste his time in Fractals when they know its faster with a "ELITISM GROUP SETUP..." if you have nothing more than to upset you about elitism why dont ignore these Groups?

Dude, U has done lots of fractals is what he's sayin when he saying "a handful". You need more than 50k relics to get the Fractal Savant title if you buy nothing but the omnipot and that. That's a lot of fractals over a long time.

And no, we ain't gonna waste our precious time in fractals, we enjoy doing fractals. And it's in fact not faster to do dailies with a meta group. On average, you'll spend about the same time total. It always depends on the players.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

I think its wrong too judge someone how good they are all should be allowed even those with no ar its the skilled players duty too carry the others

[Cynz.9437]

There is one thing i never understood about any dungeon/fractal run: so people require top/meta/whatever is Op in their opinion setup. I personally find that you can run dungeon with any setup really as long as you know dungeon mechanics. Now here is the joke: by the time elitists found a group, normal group already finished the dungeon. Just LoL.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Evellynn Capone.6584" said:U done handful of Runs uhm... nice to hear but how long are u playin Fractals? Thie Meta exists before Fractal Change and u have to know about your

"handful runs"

. Its not hard to find Casual Groups for Fractals (maybe 5 - 10 mins waiting and the Group is full). PPL wont waste his time in Fractals when they know its faster with a

"ELITISM GROUP SETUP..."

if you have nothing more than to upset you about elitism why dont ignore these Groups?

Dude, U has done lots of fractals is what he's sayin when he saying "a handful". You need more than 50k relics to get the Fractal Savant title if you buy nothing but the omnipot and that. That's a lot of fractals over a long time.

And no, we ain't gonna waste our precious time in fractals, we enjoy doing fractals. And it's in fact not faster to do dailies with a meta group. On average, you'll spend about the same time total. It always depends on the players.

It's in fact way faster to use specific comps. You can't do uncat fractal in ~4min with some trailblazer scourges. They need that time on the first champions alone.You don't really need 2 weavers but 2 power dps + chrono, dps druid and spellbreaker or berserker make fractals so much faster compared to some random stuff some people run.High level fractals have always been really elitist. Most rangers and necros were kicked on sight in old 50s. Back then it was guard/mesmer, ps warr, thief/engi, 2 eles. With guard and engi as safe choices compared to optimal mesmer, thief.If you want to run with 3 necros, soldier dh and a mirage do it but saying its faster than meta comps is just wrong. Everything without portal spam is way slower. At least you can get a pocket mesmer as raid rewards now.

[Vinceman.4572]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

1. My thoughts are definitely applicable. Probably a top analysis of "gamer elitism" actually, if you were to go out of your way to search up the topic.

No, you still mix "efficient" people with "elitist" people. They are not the same.

2. But the majority IS beginning to follow raid meta elite expectation in the casual game mode. Ultimately this will begin to push more players out of fractals who would have otherwise shown up and began to learn, the very same as it did in raids. The higher standard that is set by groups in fractals, the more and more of a turn off it becomes for new players. Again, is this necessary in a casual game mode? And don't go into "make your own group" when 3/4ths of the groups I see posted lately are forming raid metas. It is becoming more and more rare to find casual T4 groups, which is why I post themself usually, to help the newer players waiting.

1. It won't push people that like fractals out of this game mode if they keep playing and forming the same group labels like today (for example "T4") since there are enough players around - on both sides!
2. T4 isn't a casual game mode at all. Anet Ben has set the standard: T2 is dungeon difficulty, so T4 is way above it. Before HoT the lfg of the lvl 30, 40 and 50 area was very empty and not many groups were found. Are casuals able to clear T4s? Of course. Are they able to do it with whateverest comp? Again: Yes! Just because it's possible it's not a complete casual game mode. Ask around and you'll see that a lot of players (not even the majority) don't play fractals.
3. The thing is most of the people don't set up lfgs on their own which is a big mistake. I'm also lazy as fck and try to join groups instead of creating them by myself. I'd rather do different stuff in between my lfg-search than caring about an own lfg. But if I really want to - and we are definitely talking about players that want to play fractals - get your xxx up and write some letters in the description. People will join and follow like lemmings.

3. I never said I wanted to "force" anyone to do anything. I'd like to see you a quote a single example of that from this thread. My handful of experiences with semi-successful runs? I guess having the fractal savant title would indicate that "I've done a handful of runs in my time".

You are complaining about the increase of meta groups in the lfg and you definitely want it to be changed. This is 100% forcing others to change their mindset/playstyle. But you won't be successful because a lot of players recognized that it's in their interest to be (very) efficient and getting their daily rewards rather earlier than later. This is no disgrace, I would call it clever.And I don't care about your "Fractal Savant" as I have my "Fractal Champion" soon. It's still your own data that is totally biased by your impressions and feelings. I started playing fractals when they were released. I ran a lot of different comps, metas, non-metas, don't care at all stuff etc. pp. It's a fact that meta comps are faster if you get the players. It's not a miracle to understand why there are speedruns with meta comps and not with 5 nomad warriors with core spec from 2012.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Raguel.9402" said:How PPL done Fractals before without Healer, Chrono, Scourges ect.?That was called the "whatever goes" composition. And it worked then. It has only becoming less usable lately because the changes to the fractals (and new fractals) are balanced around a much higher "efficiency" point.

I think it has less to do with specific (changed or new) fractals. You can do all fractals with a group that consists of "whatever goes". If you have 5 players who use self-reliant build with gear, traits and skills that support this, I don't see how they would suffer in the new fractals.

The problem comes when you have specialized builds and self-reliant builds in the same group.There's no "specialized" build that wouldn't have done just fine in a "whatever goes" groups of old time. In fact, many of those groups

were

made completely of people playing dps meta builds (that did not differ in any meaningful way from the meta builds nowadays). With no problem whatsoever. If it's different now, it's not because meta has changed. It's because either people changed, or the content did. Or both.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Raguel.9402" said:You’re so far behind it’s cute. Nothing „bleeds” into fractals. There were lfgs asking for meta comps since dungeons.Yes, but those LFGs were a minority and were clearly labeled. Anyone trying to go in an unlabeled LFG expecting meta comp was preparing themselves for a world of pain and suffering. Now meta has suddenly become the "default" setting, and players are kicked out of unlabeled parties for not following it.Something

has

changed. Though i admit that it may not necessarily be a "contamination" from raids. It's enirely possible that the general changes to the fractal difficulty (and to game in general) simply chased away the more casual players, leaving only those elitist ones behind.

On one hand I agree. On the other hand, anet is specifically balancing the game to make players use the only possible logical choices when theorycrafting. We are closer and closer to meta builds being the only choices for our specs, as other options seem to be irrelevant or illogical in comparison.I did mention that too in the later part of my post. The newer fractals do seem to be balanced at a much higher level, that forces players to adapt and move more towards the optimal meta setups.

@Cynz.9437 said:There is one thing i never understood about any dungeon/fractal run: so people require top/meta/whatever is Op in their opinion setup. I personally find that you can run dungeon with any setup really as long as you know dungeon mechanics. Now here is the joke: by the time elitists found a group, normal group already finished the dungeon. Just LoL.That was true of dungeons once (and still is, i guess). That was also true of fractal once... but is not true anymore. the meta groups are far more numerous than the casual ones, and the new fractal content does discourage you from old casual playstyle, and pushes you towards the meta. It seems that there's also far less casual players attempting the content than before. And if the game will continue on the current course, the situation will likely only worsen.

[Faaris.8013]

@Nephalem.8921 said:It's in fact way faster to use specific comps. You can't do uncat fractal in ~4min with some trailblazer scourges. They need that time on the first champions alone.

I wrote it's usually not faster in total time. I've seen LFGs waiting for a specific class for 10 minutes and more. The whatever goes group takes longer, but they'll finish at the same time and have totally needed the same amount of minutes from the time they started looking for people to the end.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Nephalem.8921 said:It's in fact way faster to use specific comps. You can't do uncat fractal in ~4min with some trailblazer scourges. They need that time on the first champions alone.

I wrote it's usually not faster in total time. I've seen LFGs waiting for a specific class for 10 minutes and more. The whatever goes group takes longer, but they'll finish at the same time and have totally needed the same amount of minutes from the time they started looking for people to the end.

That's only true for CM + T4 groups or not during peak time. The usual T4 meta group doesn't need to wait more than 5 min. average.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

1. My thoughts are definitely applicable. Probably a top analysis of "gamer elitism" actually, if you were to go out of your way to search up the topic.

No, you still mix "efficient" people with "elitist" people. They are not the same.

2. But the majority IS beginning to follow raid meta elite expectation in the casual game mode. Ultimately this will begin to push more players out of fractals who would have otherwise shown up and began to learn, the very same as it did in raids. The higher standard that is set by groups in fractals, the more and more of a turn off it becomes for new players. Again, is this necessary in a casual game mode? And don't go into "make your own group" when 3/4ths of the groups I see posted lately are forming raid metas. It is becoming more and more rare to find casual T4 groups, which is why I post themself usually, to help the newer players waiting.

1. It won't push people that like fractals out of this game mode if they keep playing and forming the same group labels like today (for example "T4") since there are enough players around - on both sides!
2. T4 isn't a casual game mode at all. Anet Ben has set the standard: T2 is dungeon difficulty, so T4 is way above it. Before HoT the lfg of the lvl 30, 40 and 50 area was very empty and not many groups were found. Are casuals able to clear T4s? Of course. Are they able to do it with whateverest comp? Again: Yes! Just because it's possible it's not a complete casual game mode. Ask around and you'll see that a lot of players (not even the majority) don't play fractals.
3. The thing is most of the people don't set up lfgs on their own which is a big mistake. I'm also lazy as kitten and try to join groups instead of creating them by myself. I'd rather do different stuff in between my lfg-search than caring about an own lfg. But if I really want to - and we are definitely talking about players that want to play fractals - get your xxx up and write some letters in the description. People will join and follow like lemmings.

3. I never said I wanted to "force" anyone to do anything. I'd like to see you a quote a single example of that from this thread. My handful of experiences with semi-successful runs? I guess having the fractal savant title would indicate that "I've done a handful of runs in my time".

You are complaining about the increase of meta groups in the lfg and you definitely want it to be changed. This is 100% forcing others to change their mindset/playstyle. But you won't be successful because a lot of players recognized that it's in their interest to be (very) efficient and getting their daily rewards rather earlier than later. This is no disgrace, I would call it clever.And I don't care about your "Fractal Savant" as I have my "Fractal Champion" soon. It's still your own data that is totally biased by your impressions and feelings. I started playing fractals when they were released. I ran a lot of different comps, metas, non-metas, don't care at all stuff etc. pp. It's a fact that meta comps are faster if you get the players. It's not a miracle to understand why there are speedruns with meta comps and not with 5 nomad warriors with core spec from 2012.

I stated my opinion but am I trying as hard to force my opinion as you are?One thing is certain, I have not yet tried to convolute or put words into your statements.We should try hard bro.

[Vinceman.4572]

Looks like you lost something...

[Faaris.8013]

@Vinceman.4572 said:Looks like you lost something...

I think he rather remembered a famous Mark Twain quote and decided to not argue with you anymore.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

It's because he isn't actually arguing the points made. He is more.. injecting statements to stir up trouble. Short example of what he is doing:

• I say: "The cake is good"
• Then he says: "First of all the cake is not even cake, it's pie. Second of all, you are trying to force people to think the cake is good."

So, where is the actual argument against the cake being good? if you see what I mean.

[Cyndercat.7615]

I created t4 all welcome group today. Couldnt fill it in 30minutes. So the people who are saying elitism wont reach fractals, it has. Noone will do a non meta t4 run anymore, at least on EU.

[Faaris.8013]

@zombyturtle.5980 said:I created t4 all welcome group today. Couldnt fill it in 30minutes. So the people who are saying elitism wont reach fractals, it has. Noone will do a non meta t4 run anymore, at least on EU.

Might have had other reasons. Are you playing necro maybe, or thief?

[Chris McSwag.4683]

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:I created t4 all welcome group today. Couldnt fill it in 30minutes. So the people who are saying elitism wont reach fractals, it has. Noone will do a non meta t4 run anymore, at least on EU.

1. Its friday and most were probably still at work/school
2. "all welcome" generally indicates a low experience group. Regardless if you play with meta or not, most T4 players would like to play with experienced people.
3. There are a fair bunch of "off meta" groups, typically the "4 necro+druid" combo, doing T4 daily. Just looking at the LFG atm, most groups do not seem to follow a strict meta comp, and even fewer do if you'd consider DH less meta than Weaver, which it generally is(an elitist group shouldnt include "second tier dps" right?).EU LFG atm: https://imgur.com/a/tNQJ8

Btw: Under the assumption that "noone will do a non meta t4 run" is correct(its not), wouldnt that imply that the vast majority of players in T4 are happy with playing meta and that you, as a minority, shouldnt ask for the majority to cater to your needs?

[CptAurellian.9537]

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:I created t4 all welcome group today. Couldnt fill it in 30minutes. So the people who are saying elitism wont reach fractals, it has. Noone will do a non meta t4 run anymore, at least on EU.

Big surprise at a time that's about as off-prime as it can be. For my almost daily "T4 dailies" at more reasonable times, filling the group is usually done in 2-3 minutes.

[Faaris.8013]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@"zombyturtle.5980" said:I created t4 all welcome group today. Couldnt fill it in 30minutes. So the people who are saying elitism wont reach fractals, it has. Noone will do a non meta t4 run anymore, at least on EU.

Big surprise at a time that's about as off-prime as it can be. For my almost daily "T4 dailies" at more reasonable times, filling the group is usually done in 2-3 minutes.

I know it's anecdotal as well, but I wanted to do T4s this evening and looked for a few minutes at the LFG. Nothing looked quite fitting, a group that only wanted necros, a guy who was alone and asked for all classes that the meta setup has. Some asked for druid or BS...meh. The LFG windows was rather static.

So I decided to just start a group and put "T4 dailies, just know your shit" into LFG. Guess what, it took about 10 seconds to fill up (not kidding). Got a druid, chrono, weaver and scourge, and me as thief. And the players were pretty good, we had no issues at all and finished in the usual 30 minutes.

These players were not happy with the LFG offers either, and watched them just like I did. I wonder how many other players were watching that window at the time, only the first 4 were able to join the group. I have the feeling that there are lots of players who would just like to have a normal, stress-free run, but most don't initiate a group on their own. Every one of the members of my party would have been accepted in those meta compositions, but they joined my LFG instead.

In meta groups, it can happen that you are bossed around, and have to fear that you are kicked if you fuck up a mechanic and die and cost the group time. In general, it's not relaxed. In my second run today, we (my three guild mates and me) had a guy join the group who we quickly labelled Leeroy Jenkins, because he was rushing without need. At Underground, he ordered us to do the boss with two buckets. I asked him if he's in a hurry, and he wondered why I asked that question. We then had some fun talking about the nice scenery there before we started the fight. In the fight, he ordered me to run back to the first bucket after we got the boss down to 42%. I proceeded to the third bucket, I was fixated. He was obviously bothered by this ^^ After the fight, I told him that we simply had not enough dps to get him down with 2 buckets (he played Soulbeast, he was part of the reason why we didn't have enough dps). Then I learned what this was all about! Apparently, the distance between the first and the second bucket is a little bit shorter than between the second and the third bucket. You can possibly save 3 seconds by returning to the first one instead of running to the third.

Seriously, I love being fast and efficient, but that's just ridiculous. Especially when you see that the rest of the group doesn't care, don't try to create some weird pressure or stress. Another thing that's missing from meta groups is usually chat. You barely get a hello, and most of the time people leave the group at the end of the run instead of clicking the pop up, because it's faster to load out of the fractal to your last location than loading into the lobby first. Runs are smooth, but people go straight for business, no time to chat or comment something. If you are a more social person, those meta groups are not for you.

[Cerioth.7062]

I got yelled at by a mesmer today in fractals. I was the third one to join the group, LFG only stated that its a 99 daily run pots+food. I had all that and I was on my soulbeast. I was told I should play a druid because its more efficient support. I told I want to stay dps. He insulted me and kept going on about it. The fractal was done in under 10 minutes, smooth and nice.Why be such an ass?

[Vinceman.4572]

Joined a "T4 dailies" yesterday due to time issues. Sadly the lfg has been up for 10 minutes and nobody joined. I quit and calculated my available time again and another group of 4 players popped up. I quickly joined saw a chrono with "Voice in the Void" and I knew it would be good. Instead, the chrono was awesome the rest was garbage. 2 Players died unnecessarily during the fight against Jade Maw even after a full ress one of them, a veteran player, died again. Two others took crystals and waited instead of clearing tentacles. At Underground Facility the chrono whispered me, we had some talk and carried the the others through ice elemental boss because they all died over and over again. None of us two wrote anything in the party chat. Afterwards the chrono was very thankful and left. I did as well because my time ran out. End of story.Such experiences are the reason why I usually only join meta groups or run with a static a.k.a. friends. It's this "luck factor" (You never know what you get) preventing me from having fun in the content I like the most in this game. We did the job for the them, tried to ress whenever possible and didn't yell a single time for being that bad but hey, they weren't even thankful in the end. ^^When I got home later I joined the standard meta group for CMs and enjoyed the usual super smooth 100 & 99 with one wipe at Siax which lost us 30s to 1 min. at most. Not to mention everyone was in a good mood, we thanked each other and wished a good night. The common thing in those groups, just saying.

[Holykitten.3064]

Efficiency is an absolute for some players. Time constraints is why. Nobody wants to spend an unnecessarily long amount of time dying/wiping/gg on the same fractal. It’s dull.My usual posting when starting an lfg for t4 dailies is ‘f-p-brain’ I tend to join other parties though that ask for similar f-p-t etc. Why? Because food and potions are available to all players, and they boost your stats, why would you not use them.You can tell a lot about how people will be just by the food they use sometimes. You see any magic find food and you know they’re not too serious about efficiency (outside of the boon duration variants for fractal Chrono)

One thing that does bother me is players that join groups that ask for something specific, and the player that joins is not even what was asked for. I had a thief join when the lfg stated Druid the other day. No relog, so he was kicked.

These problems in this thread are solved if you create your own lfgs or read what other people are asking for.

I take spellbreaker into t4s now, and Chronos are delighted in 99/100cms when I zone in because it makes their job of providing alacrity that much easier. Yes, these meta groups that ask for bs for CMs because a condi warrior is easier to find.

The ‘elitism’ has always been in game, it’s just moved from dungeons (4 Warriors 1 Mesmer), to Fractals which run efficient groups for maximum group buffs. They’re still doable without that setup, but more often than not, the meta group is smoother and quicker, as long as those meta players know what they’re doing (That is the biggest factor).

[CptAurellian.9537]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:It's this "luck factor" (You never know what you get)The fun thing is, this goes all ways. My experience with those pug groups with requirements like the good old "exp pls" or demands for a meta comp: half of them are just clueless and want to be carried, obviously. In no way better then the plan T4 groups.

[FrostDraco.8306]

->Calls fractals a casual game mode.

And see that's where you are wrong kiddo.

[Holykitten.3064]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:->Calls fractals a casual game mode.

And see that's where you are wrong kiddo.

They are, in tier 1 and 2. ^^

[FrostDraco.8306]

@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@FrostDraco.8306 said:->Calls fractals a casual game mode.

And see that's where you are wrong kiddo.

They are, in tier 1 and 2. ^^

The mention of a CM automatically invalidates any claims this post was about only t1 and teir 2.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Elitism always exist. It is just that nowadays the nice players are getting lesser for whatever reasons. Didn't anybody notice that the game is getting less populated?