Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread

[FrostDraco.8306]

@SkyShroud.2865 said:Elitism always exist. It is just that nowadays the nice players are getting lesser for whatever reasons. Didn't anybody notice that the game is getting less populated?

Because casual players, or more temperamental players, tend to not be dedicated players. You are more likely to encounter players who play the game either a lot, or more hardcore. This game tried to cater mostly to the casual crowd, which leads to sharp dips in population in between patches from both groups.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:->Calls fractals a casual game mode.

And see that's where you are wrong kiddo.

Well that's the thing. This new breed of Raid Meta fractal players don't feel the casualness behind T4s because they play raid oriented DPS that goes down from a single strong attack like say the Ice Elemental Boss from Underground Facility. So they have to take the time to form Raid Meta Subgroups and hope their Druid isn't poor. If the Druid is poor or there is no Druid at all, these ultra glass DPS specs have problems in fractals because fractal AI does not work the same as raid AI. Of course the T4s won't feel casual for groups trying to approach fractals like this.

But for older fractal players who just know what they are doing on self sustaining build structures, it's super casual man. And it has been for years.

So, they can tell me again how much the Raid Meta is helping the efficiency of Fractals?

[CptAurellian.9537]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:This new breed of Raid Meta fractal players don't feel the casualness behind T4s because they play raid oriented DPS that goes down from a single strong attack like say the Ice Elemental Boss from Underground Facility. So they have to take the time to form Raid Meta Subgroups and hope their Druid isn't poor.I like the big, fat self-contradiction contained within these two sentences :)

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Vinceman.4572" said:Joined a "T4 dailies" yesterday due to time issues. Sadly the lfg has been up for 10 minutes and nobody joined. I quit and calculated my available time again and another group of 4 players popped up. I quickly joined saw a chrono with "Voice in the Void" and I knew it would be good. Instead, the chrono was awesome the rest was garbage. 2 Players died unnecessarily during the fight against Jade Maw even after a full ress one of them, a veteran player, died again. Two others took crystals and waited instead of clearing tentacles. At Underground Facility the chrono whispered me, we had some talk and carried the the others through ice elemental boss because they all died over and over again. None of us two wrote anything in the party chat. Afterwards the chrono was very thankful and left. I did as well because my time ran out. End of story.Such experiences are the reason why I usually only join meta groups or run with a static a.k.a. friends. It's this "luck factor" (You never know what you get) preventing me from having fun in the content I like the most in this game. We did the job for the them, tried to ress whenever possible and didn't yell a single time for being that bad but hey, they weren't even thankful in the end. ^^When I got home later I joined the standard meta group for CMs and enjoyed the usual super smooth 100 & 99 with one wipe at Siax which lost us 30s to 1 min. at most. Not to mention everyone was in a good mood, we thanked each other and wished a good night. The common thing in those groups, just saying.

Of course I would run with a 5 man party consisting of friends high on meta builds if I had the option but I don't always have that option. Sometimes they just aren't online. Usually I try to log in after daily reset but sometimes I miss reset and log in early in the morning eastern time, when fractal population is at a low. These are the only two times of day that I really have time/focus to sit down and complete fractals. When I log in, I just want to join a group and go. I don't care to assimilate a meta group at 5:00 am eastern time because it takes too goddamn long. Besides that, I just don't need to. This is why I run Scourge in fractals. It is a DPS that can solo carry through a team wipe if it needs to, mainly because of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Parasitic_Contagion Epidemic is also amazing against mobs in fractals and bosses that have adds or multiple aspects of the boss. When Epidemic is used correctly in a condi stacking unit, it's like having 10 DPSers in that unit, from even a single Epidemic.

[Vinceman.4572]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:It's this "luck factor" (You never know what you get)The fun thing is, this goes all ways. My experience with those pug groups with requirements like the good old "exp pls" or demands for a meta comp: half of them are just clueless and want to be carried, obviously. In no way better then the plan T4 groups.

See, yours and mine are anecdotal reports. Since I have never had issues with meta groups I stick to them because the mentioned things never happened to me before within such a group. And if I'm running a non-meta group it's not even the case that 90% of the runs are without obstacles. The number is much lower for my runs in the past.Most of the more casually players in T4 don't even know to /gg which can add to minutes if someone doesn't run out of combat and tries to rezz the 4 corpses around him or tries to solo a boss above 50% hp not to forget the reset of cooldowns which is very important if you play classes properly.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@CptAurellian.9537 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:This new breed of Raid Meta fractal players don't feel the casualness behind T4s because they play raid oriented DPS that goes down from a single strong attack like say the Ice Elemental Boss from Underground Facility. So they have to take the time to form Raid Meta Subgroups and hope their Druid isn't poor.I like the big, fat self-contradiction contained within these two sentences :)

Eh? It's not a contradiction. I'm explaining that the reason why T4s don't feel casual for Raid Meta users is because of the time they invest into organization and effort of group coordination between the classes. They are making it feel like raids, which is not a feeling that most users like actually.

This leads back to the entire point of the OP post which is, how highly unnecessary this is in T4 fractals, which is a game mode that can be casually and easily completed with a group of 5 random players on random classes that simply know the mechanics. Making an LFG that says: "T4 Dailies Experienced Only" is enough expectation to put forth for a group running T4 Dailies or even CM Motes.

When too much expectation is applied, it excludes newer players trying to learn or intermediate players trying to get better. When these players are excluded and never get a chance to learn, they stop showing up. When players stop showing up, a game mode begins to die. Players should consider this concerning the health of Guild Wars 2, especially while running something that is so much more casual that raids. This is after all, why so many people won't even touch raids. Do you want this to happen to T4 fractals as well?

[Vinceman.4572]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Eh? It's not a contradiction. I'm explaining that the reason why T4s don't feel casual for Raid Meta users is because of the time they invest into organization and effort of group coordination between the classes. They are making it feel like raids, which is not a feeling that most users like actually.

Eh what? The first ones who are complaining about fractal changes are not the dedicated raid or fractal crews that run meta builds. It's only the casual crowd that cries loud & heavy. Threads are full with complaints of players that run whateverest builds and think that T4 is casual content. Best example is the TO thread in which no single meta player is complaining but others do.Trust me, the most raid meta users feel T4s being casual because they are running the meta. They don't find it casual if they have to carry 1 or more players through the content because that's not what they want. That's all.

Since raids are not dead I cannot see a problem here. People have called GW2 a dead game already in 2013/14 and now it's 2018. Maybe it will bleed out soon but that's no big deal after at least 6 years or more presence in a business that is developing at a tearing pace.

[Bladestrom.6425]

SInce a group advertising specific builds are moot since everyone should comply with the builds required, lets look at open pugs:

A Great player in random pug with non meta builds - tweaks personal build to reflect and look forward to some interesting combat, speed is secondary to good gameplay.

Bad player - complains about others including their builds, demands a very specific set of builds, demands that everyone conforms to their vision of 'optimal' and cant adapt, may use meters to validate their tunnel vision approach etc edtc.

The problem is that some players cannot cope with anything not simplified/normalized based or raider thinking aka 'optimal' in their head.

[Astralporing.1957]

@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@"SkyShroud.2865" said:Elitism always exist. It is just that nowadays the nice players are getting lesser for whatever reasons. Didn't anybody notice that the game is getting less populated?

Because casual players, or more temperamental players, tend to not be dedicated players.You might be surprised. It's usually the middle of the pack that is the most loyal, because hardcores often go through the content too fast and have nothing to do, get bored because it's "too easy", or suffer through burnout. They are also usually not soo good at paying real cash, unless it's for in-game advantage (which is something gw2 doesn't offer). It's the players with long playing time but more casual playstyles that carry (or bury) the MMOs.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Faaris.8013" said:30 minutes ago I was instantly kicked from a group after joining by two players. I joined with my second account and they probably didn't like my low APs and MPs ^^

I could have the No Hero Left Behind title, they would never even have seen it, just insta-kick. I wouldn't even call this elitism, it's wannabe-elitism maybe, in reality it's toxic prejudice, discrimination and exclusion. No need to call this elitism.

In a way I agree with you, I really do. But when further examining the roots of what births prejudice and discrimination, one can see that it is elitist behavior. The interesting thing is that when a minority undergoes exclusion, whether IRL or in an MMORPG, it is not seen as elitism because the majority has made some elitist expectation a standard. But when the minority excludes the majority to push and create an elitist standard, it is then seen as elitism. Two good examples of this are:

• Kids playing kickball on a playground. A couple kids are always last to be picked. No one wants them on their team because they don't meet the standard of expectation. That or maybe people just don't want to give them a chance for whatever reason. This scenario would commonly be seen as discrimination.
• The Skull And Bones Society through Yale University will not invite anyone into the society or even to any secret meetings of any kind, unless they meet a high level of expectation and/or interest. This is seen as elitism.

What is even more interesting is that elitism and things like prejudice/discrimination/exclusion are intrinsically the same exact thing. The behavior and psychological state of mind when performing the process of elitism/prejudice/discrimination, is the same exact thing. The only difference is that the word discrimination would be used when a large field of kids playing kickball decide that two kids don't meet "the meta" and don't want to play with them, whilst the word elitism would be used when a very small minority of well educated and privileged human beings decide who doesn't meet "the meta" to be a Skull Society member. Again, the behavior and process is the same thing. The only difference is when it is the majority deciding who is bad or when a minority is deciding who isn't good enough, but it the same exact thing.

What is important to understand about a particular instance of discrimination or elitism are the details behind the instance and if it was practical discrimination/elitism or simply ignorance and reluctance to see past a cliché trend or majority opinion:

• The majority of the kids on the kickball field were in 8th grade. One of the kids being discriminated against was only in 6th grade. He looked smaller and less capable than the 8th graders which is why no one wanted him on their team. One could say "his visible APs were low and he wasn't wearing any legendary gear. They didn't think he would make a good team member". But if they would have given him a chance, they would have seen that he kept up just fine and in some cases, was faster and more accurate than the older kids because, little Joey was genetically destined to become a professional soccer player.
• The Skull And Bones Society in the past, would discriminate based on wealth/race/sexuality. Imagine the candidates who were not picked up, that indeed went on to form "the meta" in various aspects of NA culture/law/sociology.

The above are examples of ignorance and reluctance to see past a cliché trend or majority opinion. The following are examples of practical exclusion/elitism:

• The other kid sitting out that no one wants on their team is a kid who has played with the other children many times. He often bullies and starts fights with the rest of his team mates, doesn't listen to plays and does only what he wants and in general, causes problems every time he plays. He also isn't very good in general and is a terrible pick for a winning team.
• The Skull And Bones Society rejects a particular person because they know he struggles through his schooling, barely makes the grade, his skills aren't of particular interest and his family lineage offers no special access to any establishments of interest, despite the fact that he wanted in so badly. He just didn't meet the "meta" expectations. If they were to let him in, even his sole presence would begin to lower the standard of expectation within the elite establishment, which is after all, supposed to be elite.

The above are examples of practical elitism/discrimination with purpose.

So I think it isn't really about what is elitism or what isn't but rather when is elitism ok? When is elitism practical and when is it just being unreasonable or even egotistical? Elitism when forming a high functioning raid guild is perfectly reasonable. But elitism when forming groups for casual content, is it really worth it? Are the pros for that one group greater than the cons spread through the whole community?

Let me phrase that differently. When is elitism NOT ok? In its core, it boils down to whether or not you like to spend your time with another person. This is strictly subjective and personal. You can't expect to be universally liked, nor you can expect to universally like everyone. Naturally, you'll get excluded from some groups. Just as you're excluding other people from your own groups. In the end, the whole "issue" is about people feeling hurt because their interest isn't reciprocated. I can understand people feeling that way in high school. Anything above that, sorry, you should know better.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Well that's the thing, I don't exclude anyone from any of my groups in T4s. Rather than kicking bad players, I will stop and take the time to explain mechanics to them and guess what? 9/10x these players aren't bad at all, they are just inexperienced. All they needed was 1 person to stop and take the time to point something out to them.

I haven't had a fail fractal group outside of CMs in... well honestly... I can't remember a single instance of failing a T4 daily run within the past year. Maybe I've just been doing it too long and that's why it feels easy to me but I can say that T4 fractal content is in no way as unforgiving as raid content. Players just need to relax on the T4 elitism.

I get it, they want to be efficient, but the elitism really isn't necessary for a successful run in the same way that raids demand an elite 10 man team.

[Seera.5916]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well that's the thing, I don't exclude anyone from any of my groups in T4s. Rather than kicking bad players, I will stop and take the time to explain mechanics to them and guess what? 9/10x these players aren't bad at all, they are just inexperienced. All they needed was 1 person to stop and take the time to point something out to them.

I haven't had a fail fractal group outside of CMs in... well honestly... I can't remember a single instance of failing a T4 daily run within the past year. Maybe I've just been doing it too long and that's why it feels easy to me but I can say that T4 fractal content is in no way as unforgiving as raid content. Players just need to relax on the T4 elitism.

I get it, they want to be efficient, but the elitism really isn't necessary for a successful run in the same way that raids demand an elite 10 man team.

And some people are willing to give up time waiting for a meta group in order to have a quick and efficient fractal run. They know full well that it can be completed by non-meta compositions. Just that it's not efficient and in PUG's higher chances of people not knowing the mechanics and therefore a higher chance of failure.

Why should those who prefer to have quick, efficient fractal runs not be allowed to use the LFG if they have to PUG that day? Why should only the casual group be allowed to use the LFG?

If I wanted to have an LFG and demand that players in my party dye their armor pink, then I have the right to do so and the right to kick anyone who doesn't comply. Will my group fill up fast? Who knows.

People should have the right to look for groups of players who have the same mindset. Especially when there are other people who have opposite mindsets and they would ruin the fun of each other if they were put into the same group.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

What if I were to tell you, that T4 daily completion didn't have to be a game of "The Mad King Says"?

[Seera.5916]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:What if I were to tell you, that T4 daily completion didn't have to be a game of "The Mad King Says"?

I would agree and nowhere did I say or mean to imply that it had to be that way.

You did not answer my question. Please answer it. I will say it again in different words below.

Why should players who have a preference of efficiency be forced to play with players who do not care if it takes them 30 minutes to do something it would take an efficient player 5 minutes to do?

Especially when said self-segregation is actually better for both the player making the exclusive LFG and the player who doesn't fit the requirements of the group...

Sometimes two groups of people are just incompatible in certain situations and it's best they segregate themselves.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well that's the thing, I don't exclude anyone from any of my groups in T4s.

I'm not talking about the game. You're excluding people from your groups in life. All the time, regardless if you realize it or not. Why would you expect any different in a game?

Your point about people being inexperienced is fair, however please consider the opposite point of view. Being patient with the inexperienced and essentially teaching them is something you do on your own goodwill. And it's your own decision if you want to do it or not. There is no obligation to do it, because you're sacrificing your own limited free time for the benefit of others. If you feel like it, no problem. If you don't, well, that's still okay.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Well that's the thing, I don't exclude anyone from any of my groups in T4s. Rather than kicking bad players, I will stop and take the time to explain mechanics to them and guess what? 9/10x these players aren't bad at all, they are just inexperienced. All they needed was 1 person to stop and take the time to point something out to them.

That's nice of you, but please don't expect others to do this. We are talking about T4s and I expect people to know the mechanics. Another anecdote, from yesterday. I joined an LFG and the guy who opened it was totally willing to carry. It was Lord Hizen, he sometimes posts videos of him soloing bosses, so I'm positive that he doesn't need "meta pros" to do fractals. We wanted to do 99cm and the other two fractals. A druid joined us and didn't click on the "agree" button in the cm pop up. The LFG was clearly stating that we are doing 99cm. He probably didn't read it and thought it's a run without cm. We told him it's fine and that we are going to do the fractal in challenge mote. We cleared the Assault Knights and wanted to restart with /gg to reset the cooldowns. That druid kept going, he didn't get what /gg means. Hizen explained to him, and we gathered at the entrance. I suggested to the druid that he really should get some potions for this because it's cm. He summoned a trader and was ready to buy potions, asking us what kind of potions he needs. As I said, the group was totally willing to carry and not kick anyone, and Hizen would have kept that druid, but that was too much. He told the druid he's sorry but he has to leave because he doesn't even know the basics and this is a cm run. When the druid didn't leave, we kicked him.

Seriously, Hizen seems to be a chill guy, but even he wasn't willing to carry that druid. How the hell do you get to T4 without knowing about /gg or Fractal Potions? Have a guild that carried you all the way? Took over the account from someone? These kind of people exist, and the reason why they made it to T4 is because people were not telling them the truth and kick them, but kept up with their BS and carried.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Seera.5916 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:What if I were to tell you, that T4 daily completion didn't have to be a game of "The Mad King Says"?

I would agree and nowhere did I say or mean to imply that it had to be that way.

You did not answer my question. Please answer it. I will say it again in different words below.

Why should players who have a preference of efficiency be forced to play with players who do not care if it takes them 30 minutes to do something it would take an efficient player 5 minutes to do?

Especially when said self-segregation is actually better for both the player making the exclusive LFG and the player who doesn't fit the requirements of the group...

Sometimes two groups of people are just incompatible in certain situations and it's best they segregate themselves.

As for you question:Never once did I say players should be forced to play with anyone. I said that T4 dailies do not require elitism to complete in a timely and reasonable fashion.

@"Feanor.2358" I'm not talking about playing with soldier and cleric warriors. No one wants to play with soldier and cleric warriors. Even I draw the line to blatantly stupid builds if I see them. As long as they are "in the realm" of using a correct build, I'll take the time to play with and teach them.

@Faaris.8013 See, he kicked the Druid because it needed to happen so the group could finish business, because it was a CM. That's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about kicking people out that don't need to be kicked out, who are perfectly capable of completing a T4 daily run, but still get kicked out because they aren't perfect.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have the liberty to form an ultra elite raid subgroup in T4s. I'm just saying that it is a ridiculous thing to do.

[BeardedVagabond.8136]

The new buffs will cause a horrible rift. If Anet comes out with more fractal tiers, and levels. You will see "fractal god required"

Now if you do what I do, then you'll find people willing to do the fractals. Meta, does not always mean you're automatically better.

I usually do; understand the mechanics, all welcome. 99% of the time it's an easy run.

[Linken.6345]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Seera.5916 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:What if I were to tell you, that T4 daily completion didn't have to be a game of "The Mad King Says"?

I would agree and nowhere did I say or mean to imply that it had to be that way.

You did not answer my question. Please answer it. I will say it again in different words below.

Why should players who have a preference of efficiency be forced to play with players who do not care if it takes them 30 minutes to do something it would take an efficient player 5 minutes to do?

Especially when said self-segregation is actually better for both the player making the exclusive LFG and the player who doesn't fit the requirements of the group...

Sometimes two groups of people are just incompatible in certain situations and it's best they segregate themselves.

As for you question:Never once did I say players should be

forced

to play with anyone. I said that T4 dailies do not require elitism to complete in a timely and reasonable fashion.

@"Feanor.2358" I'm not talking about playing with soldier and cleric warriors. No one wants to play with soldier and cleric warriors. Even I draw the line to blatantly stupid builds if I see them. As long as they are "in the realm" of using a correct build, I'll take the time to play with and teach them.

@Faaris.8013 See, he kicked the Druid because it needed to happen so the group could finish business, because it was a CM. That's not what I'm talking about. I am talking about kicking people out that don't need to be kicked out, who are perfectly capable of completing a T4 daily run, but still get kicked out because they aren't perfect.

I'm not saying you shouldn't have the liberty to form an ultra elite raid subgroup in T4s. I'm just saying that it is a ridiculous thing to do.

If the looking for group searches for a pink skanty clad asura warrior girl in pink and a male norn warrior joins they have a right to kick said norn since he is not what they are looking for.

[Feanor.2358]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Feanor.2358" I'm not talking about playing with soldier and cleric warriors. No one wants to play with soldier and cleric warriors. Even I draw the line to blatantly stupid builds if I see them. As long as they are "in the realm" of using a correct build, I'll take the time to play with and teach them.

Not talking about builds either. I don't have a problem playing with someone who uses a reasonable off-meta build. It's the teaching part. Sometimes I'd do it. Other times I won't. Because I either don't have the time, the will, the mood, you pick a reason. It's my own decision. No matter which way I go, I'm in my right to do so.

[Faaris.8013]

@"Nick Lentz.6982" said:The new buffs will cause a horrible rift. If Anet comes out with more fractal tiers, and levels. You will see "fractal god required"

People will soon ask for the Savant title, it's the first in the series. You need to have played a lot of fractals to get that, Savant is enough to prove your experience. Nobody will ever ask for the god title because it's stupid to do that. Someone who has done 10k T4 fractals is not better than someone who has done 2k. It's quite easy to max out your skill at them after 300 times.

[ReaverKane.7598]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Nick Lentz.6982" said:The new buffs will cause a horrible rift. If Anet comes out with more fractal tiers, and levels. You will see "fractal god required"

People will soon ask for the Savant title, it's the first in the series. You need to have played a lot of fractals to get that, Savant is enough to prove your experience. Nobody will ever ask for the god title because it's stupid to do that. Someone who has done 10k T4 fractals is not better than someone who has done 2k. It's quite easy to max out your skill at them after 300 times.

I don't think it'll come to that, i mean i've done hundreds, probably thousands of fractals, but i doubt i'll spend resources on those buffs, since i can already do fractals easily enough. There's better ways to spend my resources, even Guild Hall decorations are better ways to spend relics than those buffs.I mean what does anyone experienced enough to buy those buffs want a Writ of Tyrian Mastery for? Or a couple of Karma vials? Even the packs of relics you get from Savant and onward... You get more of those simply from making Omnipotion and then trading potions from recomended fractals for bags.

[BeardedVagabond.8136]

@Faaris.8013 said:

@"Nick Lentz.6982" said:The new buffs will cause a horrible rift. If Anet comes out with more fractal tiers, and levels. You will see "fractal god required"

People will soon ask for the Savant title, it's the first in the series. You need to have played a lot of fractals to get that, Savant is enough to prove your experience. Nobody will ever ask for the god title because it's stupid to do that. Someone who has done 10k T4 fractals is not better than someone who has done 2k. It's quite easy to max out your skill at them after 300 times.

But to some that 8k makes a difference, why is beyond me. It doesn't not matter the title, they want the buffs to make the fractal go microseconds faster

[Seera.5916]

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:

@Faaris.8013 said:

@Nick Lentz.6982 said:The new buffs will cause a horrible rift. If Anet comes out with more fractal tiers, and levels. You will see "fractal god required"

People will soon ask for the Savant title, it's the first in the series. You need to have played a lot of fractals to get that, Savant is enough to prove your experience. Nobody will ever ask for the god title because it's stupid to do that. Someone who has done 10k T4 fractals is not better than someone who has done 2k. It's quite easy to max out your skill at them after 300 times.

But to some that 8k makes a difference, why is beyond me. It doesn't not matter the title, they want the buffs to make the fractal go microseconds faster

Some people like to see how fast they can possibly do something. See all of the speed runs done for dungeons. Heck, look at all the speed run groups who were present when dungeons were still the main thing. And they posted their fastest runs in hopes to be the fastest of the groups and they would continuously try to shave seconds off of their run.

Those speed run groups weren't pugging obviously, but there are people who try to copy them as they want to go as fast as possible who just don't realize that speed run groups are static groups who know each other's strengths and weaknesses when it comes to a particular dungeon.

With PUG'ing the mistakes made in PUG's would overtake a small buff if the buff would only make the fractal go seconds faster. But if they want to require that buff, then that's on them and they'll be that much slower to fill their group if most people don't have the buff they're looking for or don't want to join a group of someone who requires it.

[Fallesafe.5932]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Raid Elitism has been slowly but surely seeping into fractals for quite some time now.... [etc etc etc]

I'm sure you're exaggerating the situation a lot. But I'm sympathetic to people who want to form groups with some standards. Because most t4 pugs are dreadful, and frustrating to the uttermost. Try this experiement... Next time you see a daily Nightmare, Thaumanova, or Shattered observatory, join a group with no specific requirements (i.e. "all welcome," "chill run," "casual run" etc), and see if you don't wipe at least half a dozen times.

I'm by NO means an elitist or an elite player. But people drive me out my mind with their terribleness. And I totally understand why somebody would just want to write LFGs that intimidate bad players from joining.