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How would you redesign the elementalist?


Lonami.2987

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@Feanor.2358 said:There's nothing wrong with the trait. Weaver has nothing usable in PvE beside it and it kinda needs the dps buff to compensate for the complete lack of any utility in its dps build.

if it was between the mechanics of the spec being changed or this trait being removed. I vote the trait be removed. I dont use the trait and never have done and i do just fine. This trait isnt the be all and end all of Weaver. If they removed this trait and buffed sword? Yeah. I would take that all day long.

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@Kain Francois.4328 said:I'm good with this compromise.

Yeah, just replace the trait.

Weaver DPS needs a slight nerf anyway.

Remove the trait. Buff Weaver sword. All the other weapons are fine without the trait anyway. I dont even use it myself and never felt like i would take it. It is kinda sad that the weapon that the spec got is actually the weapon that is WEAKEST with the new spec. So, i'd say remove the trait. Buff Sword damage here and there and give us a GOOD trait. Something that doesnt feel like they spent 2seconds thinking about it.

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@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:There's nothing wrong with the trait. Weaver has nothing usable in PvE beside it and it kinda needs the dps buff to compensate for the complete lack of any utility in its dps build.

if it was between the mechanics of the spec being changed or this trait being removed. I vote the trait be removed. I dont use the trait and never have done and i do just fine. This trait isnt the be all and end all of Weaver. If they removed this trait and buffed sword? Yeah. I would take that all day long.

Neither. The trait is fine, and so is the mechanic. Sword might get some buffs here and there, but it won't become top damage weapon. It is intended for bruising.

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@Feanor.2358 said:Neither. The trait is fine, and so is the mechanic. Sword might get some buffs here and there, but it won't become top damage weapon. It is intended for bruising.

Read above. It was in response to someone saying that we shouldnt be able to single attune as a Weaver. I think the mechanic is fine as it is but i wouldnt say no to them nerfing/removing the trait if it meant that Sword got buffed. It should NOT be bottom in damage, It should be a great option for the spec as it came with the spec, makes no sense how all the other weapons are better. I mean sure it offers a couple of nice skills but they are really needed for the class anyway.

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@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I'm good with this compromise.

Yeah, just replace the trait.

Weaver DPS needs a slight nerf anyway.

Remove the trait. Buff Weaver sword. All the other weapons are fine without the trait anyway. I dont even use it myself and never felt like i would take it. It is kinda sad that the weapon that the spec got is actually the weapon that is WEAKEST with the new spec. So, i'd say remove the trait. Buff Sword damage here and there and give us a GOOD trait. Something that doesnt feel like they spent 2seconds thinking about it.

What if they change the 10% bonus to +10% damage while we have barrier? This would indirectly promote use of Sword, since Sword has more Barrier uptime than any other weapon, while also promoting us to use Dual attacks, which I remind is our profession mechanic.

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@ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

@"Feanor.2358" said:Neither. The trait is fine, and so is the mechanic. Sword might get some buffs here and there, but it won't become top damage weapon. It is intended for bruising.

Read above. It was in response to someone saying that we shouldnt be able to single attune as a Weaver. I think the mechanic is fine as it is but i wouldnt say no to them nerfing/removing the trait if it meant that Sword got buffed. It should NOT be bottom in damage, It should be a great option for the spec as it came with the spec, makes no sense how all the other weapons are better. I mean sure it offers a couple of nice skills but they are really needed for the class anyway.

Again. Sword is only "worse" than other weapons in the context of dps, and it is intended for something else. And if you're trying to fit that specific role (bruiser), Sword is pretty much your best bet. The scenario "nerf the trait, buff sword dps to competitive levels" isn't realistic. It won't happen, not like that. And by the way Sword probably has better damage than mainhand dagger. So, again, the mechanic is fine and the trait is fine.

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I'm good with this compromise.

Yeah, just replace the trait.

Weaver DPS needs a slight nerf anyway.

Remove the trait. Buff Weaver sword. All the other weapons are fine without the trait anyway. I dont even use it myself and never felt like i would take it. It is kinda sad that the weapon that the spec got is actually the weapon that is WEAKEST with the new spec. So, i'd say remove the trait. Buff Sword damage here and there and give us a GOOD trait. Something that doesnt feel like they spent 2seconds thinking about it.

What if they change the 10% bonus to +10% damage while we have barrier? This would indirectly promote use of Sword, since Sword has more Barrier uptime than any other weapon, while also promoting us to use Dual attacks, which I remind is our
profession mechanic
.

No, it would just make Weavers dependent on barrier Scourge supports, which is pretty terrible.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:Again. Sword is only "worse" than other weapons in the context of dps, and it is intended for something else. And if you're trying to fit that specific role (bruiser), Sword is pretty much your best bet. The scenario "nerf the trait, buff sword dps to competitive levels" isn't realistic. It won't happen, not like that. And by the way Sword probably has better damage than mainhand dagger. So, again, the mechanic is fine and the trait is fine.

You would be wrong. Sword IS about damage. All weapons are about damage. What exactly do you think Sword is meant to be if its not about damage? It doesnt have anywhere near the support to be a support weapon. So in your view, what is the weapon MEANT to be? Of course it wont work like that, you again are missing the point that i was replying to someone that said specifically The following "I would remove the ability of Weaver to attune to a single element, and remove the trait which grants us a damage buff when attuning a single element."

and my view was that IF something had to be changed out of these, i would choose the trait. Nowhere did i say i WANTED either of these to happen, i was replying to this specific comment. Also, Sword will be buffed. If it means other weapons take a hit, i am okay with that. The weapon the spec comes with SHOULDN'T be the worst weapon to use with that spec.

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"Worst" based on what metric? Mark my words, Sword will never be the top dps weapon for weaver. It's a bruising weapon, not a glass cannon one. If you want to make it top-tier dps, you'd have to remove all the extra barriers, evades and whatnot, leaving it with a basic choice like the staff - either do high damage or switch to a non-damage attunement for utility and lose all your dps. I don't think this will ever happen though.

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@"Feanor.2358" said:"Worst" based on what metric? Mark my words, Sword will never be the top dps weapon for weaver. It's a bruising weapon, not a glass cannon one. If you want to make it top-tier dps, you'd have to remove all the extra barriers, evades and whatnot, leaving it with a basic choice like the staff - either do high damage or switch to a non-damage attunement for utility and lose all your dps. I don't think this will ever happen though.

The issue being, compare "Bruiser" Weaver with other "Bruiser" builds and you will see how weak the Sword is. Other bruisers have as good (and some times better...) defenses but also come with much more damage. As we are forced due to class design to put so much into defenses to get some times not even as good defenses as other which means our damage is being sacrificed, where as those arent sacrificing any damage.

Not saying that Sword should be burst damage, you shouldnt have to be burst though to deal good damage.The Sword is a little weaker than it should be, not talking about huge damage buffs, just tweaks here and there. Giving back Arcana its Fury would be quite welcome as well.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Lonami.2987 said:Weapon skill normalization.

This means that every weapon does the same thing, no matter the attunement. Skills would still change, but they would use the same core stats and design, making them easier to balance and design.

What this would do is make attunement mechanic meaningless. Why bother swapping when the skill does the same? Furthermore, it would also severely limit the versatility of the class, which is a direct result of the high number of skills we have at our disposal. Then you proceed to ask for weapon swap, which would combat that same effect, but will still leave you with about half the skills we have currently.

Let me say this very clearly:Elementalist class, and its elite specializations, are
the
best take on this archetype I've ever seen in a game. It will take some
very
serious game design skills to improve it or redesign it into something better. And if your skill is on that level, you'd be doing game design as your daily job and consequently you wouldn't be so keen to do the same again in your free time.

Aren't they meaningless already? I'm tired of playing the same weapons for five years. It would work if we got more weapons and more variety, but I'm assuming that would be hell from a development perspective, else we would have gotten them already. The other professions are growing a lot, and we're being left behind, with barely anything new to play with. Both the tempest and the weaver are really, really poor elite specializations, and one has to assume its budget went into the x4 weapon skills.

As for my idea, the skill itself wouldn't do the same, but have the same mechanic. The secondary effects, including boons, conditions, and crowd control, would all change. Imagine we have "skill A", which is about throwing a rock. Simple, isn't it? It shatters and does AoE damage on earth, pierces on air, stuns on water, and has bonus damage on fire. It's the same thing, with the same base stats, but with a second layer. Instead of attunements giving us new skills, my idea is for them to be layers upon the same foundation.

Also, the thread is for fun, so don't take it too seriously. This isn't about demanding ArenaNet to redo the game or something like that, just discussing about how professions could have been designed differently. We could get some elite specialization ideas from this, so it's an interesting conversation.

No, they aren't meaningless already. The attunements are themed and their mechanical implementation more or less follows that theme. You want damage? You'll always find it primarily in Fire and Air. You need healing? Then go Water. You want conditions? Fire and Earth.

The weapons are somewhat limited, but this has to be expected, as every weapon has 4 times the skills a weapon in another profession does. Also I was pretty happy with Warhorn. It was very different than our other offhands, could be used very well both offensively and defensively. Sword isn't really my cup of tea, but it does have its own feel, if only for the added mobility and auto-attack chains.

Now, about your idea. The problem with it is the difference becomes negligible. It only has some relevance in solo play, however this is a multiplayer game. In a party, the differences in boons/conditions/secondary effects in general becomes irrelevant. The target already has every relevant condition on it and you already have every relevant boon. What matters would depend on your role, but ele's role in a party will most likely always be damage, at least in PvE. So under your idea the gameplay would be as follows :
  1. Grab your staff.
  2. Meteor Shower.
  3. Switch attunement.
  4. Go to step 2.... with the occasional cast of Glyph of Storms.

Not exactly very exciting. Now also consider the dramatically reduced skill variety. You either get the short-cooldown AOE from Lava Font or the blast from Ice Spike. You only get one of Meteor Shower, Healing Rain, Static Field... You either get Windborne Speed, Burning Retreat, Frozen Ground... And that's just Staff...

These are all very different skills mechanically, and they are all very useful skills. Take that away, and ele will become bland, generic profession.

What if we applied the normalization changes to core elementalist, but then kept the original version (or normalized with independent cooldowns) for the tempest?

That way, tempest can keep the classic gameplay, and the other elite specializations can focus on constant attunement swapping, now with weapon swap too.

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I'd make PvE Support Elementalist more viable with as little direct effect on other Ele builds as possible. Mainly by focusing on revamping a few of the signets and underused Specializations that wouldn't be taken unless you're already supporting.

  1. Rework the Signet of Air passive to provide x% chance of lightning bolt strike on a hit/critical hit for the party (Power based, using the allies stats), Active: 1-2 second daze/stun.

  2. Signet of Water Passive: remove 1 condition cleanse every ten seconds in AoE for 5 people (15 second CD in WvW/PvP?), Active: 2 AoE CC cleanse

  3. Signet of Fire should probably be left alone. It's in a good place now for offensive Eles where some builds use it and some don't.

  4. Signet of Earth, on the other hand, isn't isn't in such a great place and is almost never taken. Having it's passive be x% chance of bleeding on hit/critical hit for the party (based on the allies stats) would give it priority in some nice comps at least. Active: Take the immobilize up from 3 seconds to 4 seconds or give it a 2 second knockdown for the increased break bar damage.

  5. Add 5-10 man Fury somewhere in the Earth Specialization. Strength of Stone (small Toughness->condition damage converter) would be a good trait to trade out. It's very underwhelming compared to everything else on that tier. (Even in PvP+WvW)

  6. Add a useful +150 stat to Party Bonus to either the Earth or Water tree. +Condition Damage added to the Earth Specialization or Expertise added to either makes the most sense. Toughness is another option, but would see much less use in PvE.

Since a lot of their buffs and the majority of their healing are tied to auras/shouts, they also have to carefully weigh the number of signets they would take. More than one or two and it'll be quite challenging to keep up your buffs. On top of that, the Ele would have to run boon duration gear since they can't effectively use Sigil of Concentration, which prevents them from adding in any significant damage. This would help in keeping it restricted to supports and preventing power creep.

*edit: Another way to handle the Air and Earth Signets would be to have it so that the damage is stored up and released when you used the Active. (The CDs for those two would need to be lowered significantly to prevent massive spike damage) Since it wouldn't be storing up damage while on CD, you would almost need the Earth trait Written in Stone (Signets passive works on CD) to fully make use of them. This would discourage DPS Eles from picking up Signet of Earth and Air to give their party an extra boost, since they'd also need to take the earth tree to compensate. It would also differentiate it from the druid's AoE damage support as a single target damage support. The effects for the Air Signet could be a single target bolt of lightning that does power damage and the Earth, a spike from the ground that causes bleeding.

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@"Blue.1207" said:Remove conjures from Ele and you have a good class with a fun rotation.

Or make them work like kits that turn your "Elite" skill into Summon "x" Conjure (for a friend) preferably with a separate CD than your actual Elite skill.

But that could be OP, so I'd be happy with kits. (or even just leaving them as is. They're a neat part of the Elementalist's skills.)

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Frankly, I can't think of a redesign of the Elementalist which would be all of:

  • Engaging
  • Fun (personally, for me)
  • Mechanically sound
  • Done in the current specialization system

The latter is the important part: The current spec/gear/sigil/rune/trait system is bogus. IMO. It prevents actual multi-role / role-swapping classes because if nothing else, your gear is forcing you into a static setup, you can't swap that mid-combat.

But, if I had free reign, and assuming someone removed stats from gear (which would be one of the biggest boons possible for GW2's combat system, IMO), I'd make the Elementalist the pseudo-equivalent of bard classes from many other RPGs: a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

However, and this is important, there needs to be a clear distinction from how the Revenant with their legends would work. Revenants pick two roles, are really good in both, but can only be in one at a time. Four roles they don't have access to.Elementists would fill all roles to a degree, always have access to everything quickly (just need to swap element), and are in fact encouraged to swap around frequently. They don't "play the tank for a while" the way Revs would, who swap to Jalis to tank, Eles off-tank while still doing all their other stuff. They're just never the best at anything, other than, well, doing everything at once.

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... I would be happy if they made the elemental summoning be around until it dies with some kind of swap system so that you can change it mid-combat - the simple "press elite key and get a new elemental depending on your current element" would work well (?)... That would help ele a lot in open world which I feel is what most new elementalists struggle with (myself included, I am not an ele main).Anyways, I have not played ele anywhere near enough to make any other bold suggestions... It is just something I think would be nice to all the new elementalist players (like myself) when we're trying to figure out what the rest of our profession does and how different weapons work.

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I like playing elementalist and the only specialization that i can play with , but what bother me most is this large possibility that the attack may miss , because most of the attacks are like setting traps like meteor , it would be nice if they put like magnetic that suck you in these attacks then will depends on the target endurance to escape it ...not just walking away easily from an attack that takes long time to charge.https://ibb.co/cvuGeG

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@Nath Forge Tempete.1645 said:conjure weapon as a engineer kit hehehe would be easier to use tho but probably OP AF haha I don't know how to improve conjure weapon gameplay tho... but i saw shield got buffed with some barrier ... could be usefull on a support build (or not)

All they need to do for conjures is:

Change the duration to match the CD, possibly increase CD for some (like earth shield) and lower for other (flame axe).Make them instant cast.Possibly add additional effect, like stunbreak on earth shield

If you did this, earth shield would be incredibly common in pvp as it has excellent defensive skills, its just that I need defensive skills NOW, not after an extra 0.75 s cast time.

For instance, if you put flame axe on a 20s CD, I might take it in melee-locked sword or dagger builds or for a little extra mobility, Frost Bow at 30s would be taken when I need breakbar damage, lightning hammer at 20s would be great for staff builds that need some melee oomph, and earth shield at 40s would be great for defense (that invuln skill and block!).

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Without going into any detail, the best thing I could imagine would be re-balancing everything around Elementalists only having access to two elements at a time. Weaver is still one of the dumbest, bloat-inducing designs that I have ever seen in video games (just slaps on more buttons and shuffles the same, 5-year-old weapon skills around the bar like they're supposed to suddenly be fresh and new). I'd probably tear the blasted thing apart and make it use a not terrible version of conjured weapons. Tempest is mostly in the same ballpark as Weaver (extra buttons slapped on top of old ones; the rawest form of braindead powercreep much like every other elite spec).

Point being, give Elementalists only an F1 and an F2. Within those slots, they can take up to two respective elements. Elementalists suddenly can get skill rosters that aren't meant to be all blown easy-going in a line. They can have real, concrete playstyle options instead of playing patty-cake with the idea of having any fixed party role.

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You can't redesign ele since you made everyone a better ele since HOT and in POF. Ele was the hybrid along with cele engi rifle back in 2014 yes. We played the meta to death in wvw and spvp. Ele has good residue healing so you must buff their damage but that will make them strong in raids and fotm. Well to off set that just add a -15% damage in raids to ele, an environmental nerf to that game mode only. But anet nerfed eles in pve hence inpacting wvw and no one complains (the right people don't complain steamers or build testers) and than it gets carriedover to spvp or most of the time its' the other way around.

Ele was the jack off all trades when the game was release in 2012 and now everyone can utilize this aspect since hot. All you can do is either either up ele's damage which will not happend. Secondly, you can give it some proper ccs not weak non damaging cc's so ele can't attack during th window. D/D weaver has plenty of skill 3 knockdowns but ele cant attack since other fire sowrd 2 most attacks are wet noodles.

Ele can't be saved, unless anet reveres many nerfs that they won't since that will take months of skill balance due to the fact they have non one that main's ele outside of soft pve.

Well for now you have to roam with other person that will dish out the condis or damage and you can just aoe for credit haha. Watch all the EU roaming vids that are more like team videos and you can see ele is not viavble. And the one hit pony trick Cello is using is an exception. But to fall for that you must be up level or build pve glass.

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