My 2 cents on wvw — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My 2 cents on wvw

LaFurion.3167LaFurion.3167 Member ✭✭✭

So after spamming some wvw on multiple classes, I've come to realize a few things. Now bear in mind Gw2 isnt my main game, but these things are glaringly obvious to even the most casual of gamers, and the fact that Anet has not changed or is very, very unlikely to change them baffles me (and everybody else).

1) Condition damage is obviously in an unacceptable state. Forget balance, forget "condis are just the meta atm", forget anything else. There is simply no reason for condition damage to be this much stronger than power based damage. From what I've seen in the past month of spamming wvw, this boils down to 2 things, which a great deal of other players have pointed out already, but I'll list my perspective.

Firstly, there is just way too much condition application, so much so that "condi cleanse" has become a thing of the past. I remember the days when you had builds that had "strong condi clear", or was "weak in condi clear, so be careful" etc on meta battle. Thesedays, 18+ stacks of torment, confusion, bleeding, and vuln + more can be applied to you in under 2 seconds. Condi cleanse is simply not enough when the APPLICATION of conditions are passive (stand in circle = insta death, and circles are HUGE and spammable). Obviously, Scourge is the main offender here. Single condi damage specs like Burn Guardian (to me at least) are examples of what condi builds SHOULD be; good condi damage capable of bursting some1 down if applied and left up, but able to be dealt with in a healthy way (avoiding application, or cleansing it if lots of stacks are applied). Currently, there are way way too many red circles of death that you simply CANNOT stand in. .

Secondly, with regards to conditions being too strong, is that conditions do way too much damage, even MORE than their power counterparts. Let me explain from my point of view, and to me, what a condition damage dealer should feel, and what it should be like to receive condition damage. Power damage is relatively straight forward; if the attack lands/connects, it does damage. Simple.

However, conditions are no longer "damage over time" effects; they are simply another way of doing damage, but more effectively. Condition damage at high stacks do damage in the same time frame as burst power damage, and this is what is so unhealthy for the game. Even high stacks of conditions should be SLOWER to kill than burst power damage, and in my opinion, this would give players a chance to react, and deal with at least SOME of the conditions being applied, and keep the damage from conditions still in a healthy state of not being too strong or too weak. Basically, as it is now, you get condi bombed, and you die instantly. I'm talking like, 2 seconds tops before you health pool goes from full hp to zero. Imagine if Scourge damage was still the same, but dealt with over a little bit longer period of time? Perhaps it would be balanced? I havn't number crunched or done the math, but to me, from a players perspective, this is where Gw2 condition damage went wrong. It is simply too FAST, and as such has basically grown to a much superior form of dealing damage, when TWO types should exist at all times.

NOTE - remember this is from WvW. I couldn't care less about how much damage players deal to npcs in open world, but a lot of what I said applies to SPvP too.

2) Power creep!

I even made a previous forum post a couple of weeks ago asking people on what their thoughts were on power creep in WvW, and the general consensus seemed to be a mix of blaming elite specs, and also conditions. However, after tuning in to a deadeye stream and seeing him crit somebody for 30,000 damage with one rifle shot, it is obvious that this is not the case. There has been power creep in wvw. Bear in mind, this is normal for an MMO, especially with two amazing expansions like HoT and PoF.

HOWEVER! THIS HAS NOT BEEN TUNED OR BALANCED in any way! The result? In wvw, you die instantly. Be it from Power damage, or Condi damage, you just.... you just die. INSTANTLY. Which is not fun for players (most players anyways). This is beyond the issue of "oh, you stood still and let him hit you, your fault", or "oh, you ate a shatter burst combo from that mesmer". I would like to point out that before, you had to gear for full power to realistically do something like a one shot, but now, with the new gear stats from expansions, players are seeing very minimal negative trade offs for getting sustained and losing very little damage.

I am no expert, and even have no suggestions for this, but I feel like it is a very important issue that can be identified, discussed, and hopefully fixed. Feel free to! There are lots of suggestions for this.

3) Almost 0 balance patches.

A simple change to 90% of current problems in WvW could be solved instantly by balancing. But all we are met with is.... Silence. No post whatsoever, no hope at all in the darkness, just forum post after forum post on how broken some classes are, with zero acknowledge ment. This is seriously, seriously bad. Players have quit over this, and I am very close to uninstalling and going back to WoW full time.... ugh.

I mean, we have already seen the ability of Gw2 to separate wvw and spvp balance changes... is it really that hard to tone down over performing, outright broken classes in wvw? Do you really have to let it sit as it is in its broken state for weeks and months on end with zero input anet? Sigh.

Anyway... discuss.... if you can be bothered. :/

Comments

  • @LaFurion.3167 said:

    A simple change to 90% of current problems in WvW could be solved instantly by balancing. But all we are met with is.... Silence. No post whatsoever, no hope at all in the darkness, just forum post after forum post on how broken some classes are, with zero acknowledge ment.

    Actualy, there is a statement from ANet in an Interview, and they seem to share most of your opinions
    They make very good points, but unfortunately kinda slow in implementation

    Said Interview:
    https://www.mmorpg.com/guild-wars-2/interviews/arenanet-discusses-the-balance-in-tyria-1000012242

  • @LaFurion.3167 said:
    zero acknowledge ment.

    You're wrong. Didn't some anet devs came out and said that condi is meant to deal more damage over time, but said the only issue was the speed of application in some specs.

    Clearly afterwards, he realised condi was not strong enough, and proceeded to buff them even more both damage and application

    Power > Condition

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭

    Obviously you are right, but again, the main source of income in this game is PVE, they center everything around PVE, they don't care about other game modes. There's been outcries for balance and people hoping for something to improve for YEARS and NOTHING improved, nothing is better, just more power creep; cheesy players getting what they want - these pro-condi buffoons doing what they can to protect their "builds" so they can do little and get more than they deserve.

    The state of this game is an absolute disaster from a competitive standpoint. It's built for lazy people without a brain. It, simply put, doesn't make any sense to even touch it any more. I'm slowly drifting away from it day after day.

    Nothing interesting to see here. Every game decision made just to monetize monetize monetize. Time to move on.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    @Sovereign.1093 said:
    We need balance patch x 3.

    Lawl.... would be somethign useless not adressing the issues with the game... 5years and the game went to a complete lame state diving(snow ball effect).

    @ThunderPanda.1872 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    zero acknowledge ment.

    You're wrong. Didn't some anet devs came out and said that condi is meant to deal more damage over time, but said the only issue was the speed of application in some specs.

    Clearly afterwards, he realised condi was not strong enough, and proceeded to buff them even more both damage and application

    Yup they did say that, scourge for looks balanced IMO for what Anet wants its to feel like ;) since player forget this is a pve game they design classes with what PVE players need to feel while playing the classes, some players need to understand they dont create nor design classes with some pvp sided logic, its just all about pve and how a pve player should feel while playin that spec.

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @ThunderPanda.1872 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    zero acknowledge ment.

    You're wrong. Didn't some anet devs came out and said that condi is meant to deal more damage over time, but said the only issue was the speed of application in some specs.

    Clearly afterwards, he realised condi was not strong enough, and proceeded to buff them even more both damage and application

    Long time before condies was about that... slow gathering up and it does dmg (if i dont count broken things like some chars with perplexity rune .. engi for example)
    Now ppl using vipers, trailblazers... to maximize chars potential... ppl know skills, builds, traits...
    When mellee train was meta... you cant effectively use condi .... they just clear it to fast.... so backliners was power eles, power well necros... once hot appear ... ppl start doing condi backliners... epidemic appear as a strong thing... and this all transform to this... boon and corrupt meta.

    Dunno how exactly they can balance it... when they hard hit condies... ppl just will make same like it was before... or just more power backline appears.

    As i run in group.... i have problems survive condi bombs (mostly corrupted my own boons)
    But if im roaming... i dont care much about condi enemy ( only condi mesmer can make it hard) so it makes different angle of problem. I run as a power shatter mirage, power Spellbreaker, power soulbeast, power holo, power daredevil... with these u can burst enemy down... or have nice duels... and classic builds who own group play u easily beat down (cele or tb scourge, condi or cele firebrand..)

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • 1) Condition damage is obviously in an unacceptable state.

    What a load of wally.

    The assumption that the ability to clean conditions must match the ability to apply them is completely wrong.

    The fact that conditions can be applied faster than you can clear them is DELIBERATE.

    If conditions were as clearable as they are applicable then people would just clear all the condi damage off and condition builds would be as useless as they used to be.

    You need to alter how you think about conditions

    Think of them as very rarely clearable damage not very often clearable damage.

    So your job is to dodge and avoid our damage just as my job is to try to dodge and avoid CoR and backstab.

    Think of conditions as simply (direct) damage applied over time.

    The fact that you're even allowed to remove any damaging conditions is a very generous choice by Arenanet.

    I personally think we should remove the ability to clear damage based conditions (bleed, burn, torment, poison).

    This will make it easier for anet to manage player expectations around conditions always needing to be clearable.

    It will also make it easier for anet to balance because they know that 20k of condis gets applied them 20k of damage will be done - players will also know that when they get 6 stacks of bleed they are in just as serious trouble as a player just received a burst combo from a rev/mesmer/thief (i.e., almost dead, time to run).

    What's in an unacceptable state is power builds like Revenant and Deadeye doing HUGE numbers from 1200+ range.

    Condition builds are relevant, power builds are relevant.

    That's much better than what it used to be and going back to the dark days isn't a good option.

    I'm tired of power builds whining about having some competition as if they're supposed to be #1 and condi are supposed to be #2.

    If you want to whinge about conditions builds then whinge about the stat combos on armour.

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xillllix.3485 said:
    The worse is how cheesy the condition buffs made the gameplay. Instead of having to land every single hit you just spam your kitten and then it hits it stacks up.

    you still need to hit enemy to put condies on him... once he evades ur stuff, or block... you dont do any dmg.
    And if i compare what can do power mirage and condi variant.... with condi u have better survivability... but longer fights... with power mirage i can one combo (almost one shot) enemy... :D

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • I guess we know who the condi players are....TBH I have better abilities to deal with power builds than I do condi builds, yet I have more skills to deal with conditions, but its all not very effective. There's something wrong when I can take 2 skills/traits to deal with physical damage and be fine. Yet I need 6 to deal with condition damage and still not have enough to deal with it.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    when u colide into a zerg and the only thing u can see on the combat log is condi hitting you, arround 30 condi skills and 2 phisical skills, then another 30 condi skills and 4 ranger and deadeye hits...

    Theres no point then play anything else that ISNT CONDI AOE SPAM based....

  • @Xillllix.3485 said:
    The worse is how cheesy the condition buffs made the gameplay. Instead of having to land every single hit you just spam your kitten and then it hits it stacks up.

    ^This. Lots of spamming. It's not that they are good, it's that the combat becomes boring to fight because you watch them run around like idiots just clicking anything.

  • Joey.3928Joey.3928 Member ✭✭

    In my experience, elite specs is a big offender on the power creep. I die much faster these days in WvW than I ever have before. I'd rather see elite specs offering different themed playstyles and not necessarily being stronger than core lines just because they are 'elite'.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RodOfDeath.5247 said:

    @Xillllix.3485 said:
    The worse is how cheesy the condition buffs made the gameplay. Instead of having to land every single hit you just spam your kitten and then it hits it stacks up.


    ^This. Lots of spamming. It's not that they are good, it's that the combat becomes boring to fight because you watch them run around like idiots just clicking anything.

    Yep...
    People laugh at me when I say necro marks don't need buffs (chill bleed reapers at the time) but what do you see every necro with staff doing?
    2-5
    5 targets
    240 radius
    300 blast radius
    1200 range
    Instant-on-point attack
    Unblockable
    Half a dozen random condi.
    If you don't step on a mark, well the guy next to you can still trigger it placing the condi on you.

    Necro staff is probably the worst weapon ingame and yet it's too easy to play. Same with scourge, if it wasn't so easy to play people wouldn't complain as much about it. And what happens is you get Condi trailblazer/dire staff scourges smashing buttons and being overly effective? Now increase their participation in wvw to 40ish% (there ARE 10 classes in gw2) and you get the current state we are in. Instead of frontline bruisers we get hammer revs and thus is born the pirate ship.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The condi issue is a bit more complicated in my opinion:

    1. Frequency and ease of application
    2. Low CD, Fire and forget type design of a large number of condition application skills, scourges are terrific example of this
    3. Raw damage numbers of condi burst that simply overwhelm a player's ability to respond, aka condi critical mass problem
    4. Not enough access to resistance across classes
    5. Spellbreakers Winds of Disenchantment elite which make surviving a coordinated CC/Condi bomb almost impossible
    6. General lack of cleanse to condi application parity amongst skill kits
    7. Trailblazer gear

    The disparity between power and condition damage based builds is largely due to the necessity of three damage stats for power builds while condition damage based builds only require two. Condi based builds get to stack both vitality and toughness while power builds get to only stack one defensive stat.

  • mulzi.8273mulzi.8273 Member ✭✭✭

    I still think they need to raise every classes health pool by 20-30k. The health pool has not kept up with the power creep over the years.
    Furthermore, they really need to address the kitten we are seeing now: zergs is about spamming aoe/condi. Roaming is all about the cheese 1-shots now. Increasing the health pool would help some against both that, though that just covers up the broken mechanics we are seeing.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2017

    @dzeRnumbrd.6129 said:
    So your job is to dodge and avoid our damage just as my job is to try to dodge and avoid CoR and backstab.

    >
    Those other people have to dodge the CoR and backstab too you know.

    The application ratio of conditions to power damage is way off.
    Those two also need line of sight, while I get chill applied to me when people run over my traps or marks when I'm already way out of it's range and sight, talk about a stupid system of applications.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic || Class Offense Defense Movement Balance is So Terribad ||

  • schloumou.3982schloumou.3982 Member ✭✭✭

    If you can burst like power, you should be squishy like power. Its not like condi doesnt have any other advantages like armor-bypass or sofft-cc effects. But there are powerbuilds too, that have way to much sustain for the dmg they are able to dish out. Yeah, basically powercreep and autopilot builds with passive endure pain (elixir s, you name it) procs, passive stabi procs, autostunbreaks.
    You are fighting more mechanics than players. Fun times :(

  • @mulzi.8273 said:
    I still think they need to raise every classes health pool by 20-30k. The health pool has not kept up with the power creep over the years.
    Furthermore, they really need to address the kitten we are seeing now: zergs is about spamming aoe/condi. Roaming is all about the cheese 1-shots now. Increasing the health pool would help some against both that, though that just covers up the broken mechanics we are seeing.

    I find that wanderers gear does help with this issue. I stood in front of a dead eye letting him mark me. Hit me for 21k and i laughed at him. He whispers "kitten are you running you should be dead?!?!". lol

  • Malerian.8435Malerian.8435 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with OP. Funny thing is Anet will balance and probably nerf WvW into the ground lol

    Being underestimated is one of the biggest competitive advantages you have!

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @mulzi.8273 said:
    I still think they need to raise every classes health pool by 20-30k. The health pool has not kept up with the power creep over the years.
    Furthermore, they really need to address the kitten we are seeing now: zergs is about spamming aoe/condi. Roaming is all about the cheese 1-shots now. Increasing the health pool would help some against both that, though that just covers up the broken mechanics we are seeing.

    higher health pools will favor sustained damage => condis. also with higher hp you would need the abibilty to heal all that hp up again. i mostly played without vitality cause i dont play support builds and if i have like 15k hp instead of 11k i might survive 11-14,9k bursts but i still wont last much longer fighting people that cant burst this high. there are very few builds that can oneshot and those are mostly telegraphed or atleast i see the opponent mostly before i get hit so i can avoid it. therefor i do think i get alot more out of thoughness.
    so vitality increase to 30-50k base health pools as you say would reduce oneshots while devaluing the vitality stat on gear so people can take another offensive/defensive stat instead => more power creep.
    the reason why currently oneshots happen and have to happen is beacause of the huge gap in defense of a glass cannon to a bunker. with the damage to take out a bunker on your glass cannon you will oneshot or kill most non bunkers very fast. or is it that you want power build kills condi wich kills bunker wich stall/kills power build therfore a rock, paper, scissors system ? i myself want if i build for glass cannon, the ability to kill any other build . sure they should all be able to kill mee too but you shouldnt be able to tank a glassc annon IMO. that is for 1on1 scenarios, but the game is not balanced mainly around that.
    in group play most skills do hit multiple enemies, on the other hand while there are alot of group support skills there is still a large part of defensive skills/traits that is not shared with group members so =>positioning gets more relevant. if you stand on the wrong spot doesnt matter if you have 20 or 50k hp, your are most likely dead. against condi in group play we have OP resistance the only issue here is the amount of boonrips/corups and i think if they put an ICD on enchantment collapse, this will be alot better. so as soon as we can keep some boons ,conditons wont be an issue anymore and it will be about positoning and spikes were your HP wont matter if you stand wrong.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is, bad balance is NEEDED for Anet, just think how many FoTM players they would lose if this game actually started to become skill based rather than build based. The gemstore is key for them. Balance is not. We have seen it time and time again with their "balance" updates. Do they actually balance the game? No. They make things MUCH worse as well as having the joy of trying to figure out which changes are intended and which are just bugs because they do have a joy of adding "intended" changes without mentioning it and as they do ZERO testing of balance updates before releasing them, bugs. Bugs. Bugs.

    I personally think they have just flat out given up on the idea of balance. The next expansion will be the last. They are likely already thinking about Guild Wars 3 and i fully expect them to go back to the Trinity system because not having it simply did not work in this game, it caused a mess in terms of balance throughout each mode.

    The problem is, this isnt a new team. This isnt their first MMO. So how can they have gotten SO many things wrong on such a constant basis when it comes to balance? If this game is anything to go by, Guild Wrs 3 will just end up the same and if people start thinking that, the game will be DOA for most people. This game was marketed as being different, yet it has failed to deliver that. It has good aspects but the bad ones HUGELY outweigh the good.

    Now i would HOPE that Guild Wars 3 returns with a wonderful balanced game. Like this game USED to have. WvW USED to be fun. WvW USED to be a challenge but every update, every expansion the balance has just gotten more and more out of control.

  • We need a new company to take over GW2. And invest in GW2's WvW and PvP modes futures.

    I am the one and only true Majestic Being.
    I stand now on the precipice of change.
    My perceptions on quality is refined.
    I am now the outsider looking in.
    Next level simi profession troll at your service.
    Bring the lols like no other.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:
    We need a new company to take over GW2. And invest in GW2's WvW and PvP modes futures.

    I always said. The biggest threat to Guild Wars 2 wasnt another MMO or anything. It was always going to be Anet. Experience from Guild Wars 1, how the Beta and start of Guild Wars 2 was and it only got more and more obvious that the biggest threat to this game was going to be the people that made it and the people trying to "balance" it

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:
    We need a new company to take over GW2. And invest in GW2's WvW and PvP modes futures.

    Oh, oh, oh I know! Trion.

  • GottFaust.5297GottFaust.5297 Member ✭✭✭

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:
    We need a new company to take over GW2. And invest in GW2's WvW and PvP modes futures.

    What illusory "new company" would this be? All of the other MMO developers/publishers who would actually have the capital to buy the IP are pretty much exclusively PvE focused in all of their games.

  • ThunderPanda.1872ThunderPanda.1872 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 7, 2017

    @GottFaust.5297 said:

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:
    We need a new company to take over GW2. And invest in GW2's WvW and PvP modes futures.

    What illusory "new company" would this be? All of the other MMO developers/publishers who would actually have the capital to buy the IP are pretty much exclusively PvE focused in all of their games.

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Reaper Alim.4176 said:
    We need a new company to take over GW2. And invest in GW2's WvW and PvP modes futures.

    Oh, oh, oh I know! Trion.

    maybe we will then see a private server that is more popular and more support than the official server

    Power > Condition

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2018

    ' Old Ways
    Won't Open
    New Doors
    '

    expect same results in the next "balance' patches

  • tippolit.3591tippolit.3591 Member ✭✭✭

    @dzeRnumbrd.6129 said:

    1) Condition damage is obviously in an unacceptable state.

    What a load of wally.

    The assumption that the ability to clean conditions must match the ability to apply them is completely wrong.

    First off, he never suggested that the two should match. Having pointed that out, let me just say that your response strikes me as complete nonsense. Anyone with an ounce of honesty has to agree that condition damage in WvW is in a totally unacceptable state and has dumbed down the skill level in competitive play to such an extent that it would be laughable if not so sad.

    The fact that you're even allowed to remove any damaging conditions is a very generous choice by Arenanet.

    By that logic, the fact that people are allowed to remove any direct damage via healing would be considered a very generous choice by Arenanet as well. Any suggestion that there should be an offensive capability in the game without a means to mitigate or counter it is ridiculous on its face.

  • it would be interesting to test out having expertise for condi builds mandatory sorta how power builds rely on ferocity. that way you would have to sacrifice a survivability stat to have better dps... like power builds. anyway unless there is a condi cap, in large scale battles you can still get hit with 20+ burns and torments constantly so theres always that, but it would put a lot less stress on condi clears over time.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • condis arent even an issue and hasnt been since PoF launched.....

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