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World Restructuring


Gaile Gray.6029

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Belorn.2659" said:With caps at 5 guilds and a total of 500-1000 members, my prediction is that the guild cap will hit in the vast majority of cases. The wvw guilds I know on my server is all much smaller than active 100+ members. This will then create alliance "guilds" which members of multiple guilds will join in order to make alliances be more dense and reach the member cap with just 5 guilds.

The guild cap will hurt small guilds. It will hurt players who currently is in multiple small guilds that each provide one aspect of wvw. It would be nice if the new system would actually help smaller guild that do one thing and do that very efficiently. 5 guilds with each 30 active wvw players is only going to be a 150 member alliance and that drawback is going to push players to abandon such guilds.But isnt the point to balance the alliances within the worlds alongside non-alliance guilds and players?

Simple math: alliance X has 5 guilds with 150 players and alliance Y has 2 guilds with 500 players. They are going to fight each other. Unbalanced? No its not.

Because if alliance X is part of a world 1 together with one more alliance of 350 players and random guilds+pugs numbering 500 players while alliance Y is part of world 2 together with 500 guilds+pugs and no other alliances, you still have 1000 vs 1000 players in world 1 and 2. Yes yes I ignore the MMR which take into consideration play time etc, but lets assume it end up equal. That's how it's balanced in very simple terms.

There will be no "need" to reach alliance cap. The only result is your alliance take up a larger chunk of the world population.

Well that and on the play time in the FAQ area Raymond posted that they'd also try to get similar hours on both sides, and make it so hardcore people play with casuals, and new players.

@"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:

Q. Does this mean the more casual players cannot play with the more hardcore WvW players?

A world can be made up of "casuals" and "hardcore" WvW players. The system uses stats like play hours in WvW, commander time and squad size, time of day, and participation levels to create worlds that are balanced. Some of the new worlds might have more hardcore players and some might have less but overall the new worlds should have similar play hours.

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@"Caliburn.1845" said:So RPers don't want to meet new people every eight weeks with the option/chance to RP with them, because those people are probably not RPers. But the RPers also don't want to go to the trouble of making a RP alliance because then they lose the chance at spontaneous roleplay and it would take some effort to actually make the alliance. So lets hold up the progress of a non-RP gamemode(WvW) so that RPers can have the chance to pretend to be a dolyak or a skritt with another player in WvW?

By this line of reasoning we clearly need to make PVE raids and PVP more friendly to roleplayers. There isn't enough chance to spontaneously roleplay in PVP, and PVE raids need to remove all boss time limits so that roleplay is more encouraged.

My tongue might be in my cheek. Maybe.

"new people every eight weeks with the option/chance to RP with them"

You don't understand RPers.

They are a community - like every server used to be.

Eight weeks is never, ever going to be long enough to be cohesive, let alone cooperative and knowledgeable about their WvW mates in arms.

This is the most ridiculous idea yet - because tournaments and servers were too easy - too cheap and not enough $$$ in coffers, which iswhat this is about, not about fixing WvW or making it better at all.

Eight weeks isn't enough time to get to know anyone in any game or real life.

The disarray that this system will cause, not only to RPers but to loyal WvW'ers who love this gaming mode and have been here sinceits inception, will be devastating to most who have no connection to guilds and much of the WvW community does not.

There are many who will quit the game because they trusted the game they were given and the choice to build a community in a gaming mode thatwas different from every other game mode in any game anywhere.

Community matters.

Tournaments mattered.

We as individuals in WvW matter.

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@StormPE.8201 said:1. While guilds and alliances will have something to fight for (their own reputation), players that choose to play alone or avoid guild association will lose a sense of community with the server/world they've been a part of for so long.

  • Why do you choose to play WvW alone?
  • What benefit do you gain from avoiding guild association that you do gain from server association?
  • What would be the difference between your current situation if you were to join a 'casual/community' guild/alliance for shard placements only and not rep a guild tag?
  • What specific parts of WvW do you enjoy most or feel are the most rewarding as a solo player?
  • What options exist for the proposed WvW changes to be implemented while addressing your concerns for losing your identity?

I have been using a neighborhood sports bar as an analogy for a 'server' as it is presently constituted; I think it is useful.

I'm not hanging out at the bar 'alone,' I am hanging out with the other regulars.If the server is a bar, you are basically saying; 'What benefit do you gain from avoiding wearing your Yankees jersey to the bar that you do gain from going to the same regular bar?' Easy; I get to hang out with the regulars, and I don't care what team they root for. I can rep the Yankees when I go to the ballgame/raid.

  • I think a community guild is actually a good solution for people who have grown attached to each other as regular militia. It would be like if our bar closed and we all just went to another bar up the street together. There would be a few new faces, but soon we would all be regulars together.
  • I think 'solo' is not a good word for the concept you are trying to describe. I enjoy scouting, flipping camps, escorting yaks, tiering towers, placing and refreshing siege, defending objectives, etc., WITH the other regulars at the bar. The thing that binds us is the effort we put into maintaining the map, not the four letters next to our names.
  • The only thing I can see right now that would help is the aforementioned casual community guild, so we can get sorted together. But even that is not perfect. A lot of us belong to guilds, and our guilds are going to get us automatically sorted away from each other. Right now I can choose to hang out with my regulars at the bar, OR I can go clubbing with my friends. I can do both in one day, in fact.
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In discussions with friends and comrades I've come to the conclusion that there is a great chance that this restructuring will tear guilds apart, especially the PVX and smaller ones.Many players are members of multiple guilds. I myself am the leader of a smaller guild but also run with bigger guilds in WvW. There was talk at one point the other day about who should be allowed in the alliance or whether they should just go independent for a while. The problem here is, I lead my guild along with several others into WvW 3 times a week. We combine forces and go wreak havoc. If the larger guild I'm a member of decides to not allow my guild into a possible alliance of existing guilds currently on the server(due to guild limit caps - ANeT this is the worst of the ideas on this plan), I will have to bow out of the larger guild, as will many others. Before you say that I could just get the other players invited to the larger guild there are problems with them being accepted due to skill level, participation limits, and guild size limits. This is where I would draw the line. As leader I won't abandon my guild members just for the glory of being with a good WvW guild. And I know the choice of selecting a single guild to be my WvW guild will of course be my guild. That way my guild members will be able to join me in WvW. But many people in other torn between what WvW experience they are looking for.

In short, bigger guilds offer shinies and bags(they say they have cookies sometimes), and they will begin to devour the smaller guilds. Is this your intent, ANeT? Are you trying to make smaller wvw guilds vanish? Are you trying to create chaos in the guilds? Because it will happen.

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@Heibi.4251 said:In discussions with friends and comrades I've come to the conclusion that there is a great chance that this restructuring will tear guilds apart, especially the PVX and smaller ones.Many players are members of multiple guilds. I myself am the leader of a smaller guild but also run with bigger guilds in WvW. There was talk at one point the other day about who should be allowed in the alliance or whether they should just go independent for a while. The problem here is, I lead my guild along with several others into WvW 3 times a week. We combine forces and go wreak havoc. If the larger guild I'm a member of decides to not allow my guild into a possible alliance of existing guilds currently on the server(due to guild limit caps - ANeT this is the worst of the ideas on this plan), I will have to bow out of the larger guild, as will many others. Before you say that I could just get the other players invited to the larger guild there are problems with them being accepted due to skill level, participation limits, and guild size limits. This is where I would draw the line. As leader I won't abandon my guild members just for the glory of being with a good WvW guild. And I know the choice of selecting a single guild to be my WvW guild will of course be my guild. That way my guild members will be able to join me in WvW. But many people in other torn between what WvW experience they are looking for.

In short, bigger guilds offer shinies and bags(they say they have cookies sometimes), and they will begin to devour the smaller guilds. Is this your intent, ANeT? Are you trying to make smaller wvw guilds vanish? Are you trying to create chaos in the guilds? Because it will happen.

That WILL happen. But if your smallish guild wants to (and mine is looking at this as we run havoc) don't join an alliance.

Wreak havoc for whichever group gets you.

Our gold sink has given us the full buffs for WvW that any large guild has. So... we feel as if we will be a value to wherever we end up.

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@Heibi.4251 said:In discussions with friends and comrades I've come to the conclusion that there is a great chance that this restructuring will tear guilds apart, especially the PVX and smaller ones.Many players are members of multiple guilds. I myself am the leader of a smaller guild but also run with bigger guilds in WvW. There was talk at one point the other day about who should be allowed in the alliance or whether they should just go independent for a while. The problem here is, I lead my guild along with several others into WvW 3 times a week. We combine forces and go wreak havoc. If the larger guild I'm a member of decides to not allow my guild into a possible alliance of existing guilds currently on the server(due to guild limit caps - ANeT this is the worst of the ideas on this plan), I will have to bow out of the larger guild, as will many others. Before you say that I could just get the other players invited to the larger guild there are problems with them being accepted due to skill level, participation limits, and guild size limits. This is where I would draw the line. As leader I won't abandon my guild members just for the glory of being with a good WvW guild. And I know the choice of selecting a single guild to be my WvW guild will of course be my guild. That way my guild members will be able to join me in WvW. But many people in other torn between what WvW experience they are looking for.

In short, bigger guilds offer shinies and bags(they say they have cookies sometimes), and they will begin to devour the smaller guilds. Is this your intent, ANeT? Are you trying to make smaller wvw guilds vanish? Are you trying to create chaos in the guilds? Because it will happen.

So you'd make a holding WvW guild, call it AAA, that is made up of Raid guilds AAa and AAb to AAz, Havoc guilds Aa to Az and scouting/roamer guilds. You all select holding guild AAA as your WvW guild. When the season starts your holding guild AAA joins into an alliance AAAA and you and all your friends join up with another holding guild BBB and all their friends and have a wonderful time playing WvW while you each rep your original wvw guilds.

When the alliance AAAA reaches cap, your holding guild AAA splits from the alliance.When the holding guild AAA reaches cap, your raid guilds and havoc guilds will split apart into smaller chunks.

Thus ends the overstacking problem in WvW.

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@Donari.5237 said:

@"Litatus.4679" said:A few serious suggestions for your team discussion:1) Role-Player-Problem: Use the "assign your wvw guild" menu and add the option "Non-Participant". Should get an own
non-competitive
WvW Server to explore the map without enemys, do some RP or force yourself to stay out of WvW for a season. [As there would be no fights, you might even ignore the max player on the maps and or this special server.] Remember that bug, where no one in WvW could fight each other? Perfect feature!

I believe you have misunderstood the RP concern. Though there have been scattered RP events in WvW servers, RPers are not fretting over losing WvW map RP. It's not a regular thing. We are fretting over the loss of server assignments meaning we have a reduced chance of randomly meeting other RPers in PvE maps, since RPers tend to cluster on a couple of servers and thus see each other a lot despite the megaserver. So the solution you propose here isn't needed. Though thank you for offering one!

In Theory you could link the alliance system with PvE-map allocation. At the moment, it should be linked somehow with the friend-system and guild system. I guess, ANet could change that to 1) Guild Members on the map, 2) Alliance members on the map, 3) Friends [if even necessary].Goes way beyond WvW, but could strenghten the introduction of the new alliance-system even to PvE-Community-Events.Afterwards you could make a few alliances called "RP-Fans (1 to n)" and it would be the same as if you had your own server where you have to tell everyone in fora to join that specific home server. :)

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@LordOtto.2650 said:You know that WvW has more pug players then guilds?! This can ez destroy WvW, you will see!

Actualy WvW is designed for pve'rs to gather and ktrain, some so called WvW guild only ktrain, and bail out at minimal defense of just fight when they know they can outman the adversary.

It is thing that needs to be done.

Still pugs (guildless players) if they wan to ktrain or wahtever they can go to EOTM and for sure there will be alliance vs alliance with combined ktrains and results to avoid fights and just get the WvW rewards.

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  • ArenaNet Staff

@Eramonster.2718 said:I know what WvW guild(s) is running during my playtime. I'm not part of their guild but I do roam and jump into the fray from time to time. Had it planned roughly since I know which guild/community to associates with to suit my playtime. That said, its still unclear if we need be part of the guild for the alliance? Or its sufficient to just select the guild/server I want to be linked with to be part if the alliance.You will need to be a member of a guild in the alliance you would like to be grouped with.And untill the system is up and ready, everything will just be speculations and more speculations trying to reach a conjecture. Wasn't announced or given an estimation date which could me months for it to be ready.It will be months before it is ready and then there will be at least a month of lead time before we use it for matchmaking so people can form alliances, join guilds, etc.

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@Eramonster.2718 said:Will it still be a three sided war?YesDo we need to join the guild/just declare associated with the particular guild/server?YesRewards that is good enough make players raise their blades against same server/friendly guilds but under different alliance?For the initial pass the goal is to get the new structure in place and from there we can look into extending this further. This could include a look into rewards but that is a ways down the line.Will the alliance continue every matchup?Alliances will remain after a matchup but new worlds will be created each time. Alliances are not the same as worlds.

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@Zephyr.8015 said:

@"Raymond Lukes.6305" said:There has been some talk about using Blackgate as an example in the post. Blackgate has been at the top of player activity hours in WvW for a very long time in NA. BG's numbers are twice as big as the average world on NA (without world linking) and 30% larger then the average NA host world. I'm not saying Blackgate hasn't suffered losses of players and coverage but BG is still on top for activity. IT'S NOT JUST BLACKGATE though.Here are all the worlds in NA and EU ordered by size names have been omitted to protect the innocent:
1uFZPf9.png

So you're are saying that BG has the most WvW hours played, you are not saying that BG has the most players. Played hours does NOT equal population. It is unfair to say that in general. Like tonight we have scouts, commanders, and players in general that spend hours or most of their day in WvW. BG players have stated numerous times that we have dedicated players and guilds who care about our standing in WvW. I'd love to see a statistic for average played hours per person/per server in WvW.

You are correct play hours is not the same as unique player population. We have found that it more accurately represents the ability of a world to "hold it's own" in WvW. That being said your position on that chart does not change compared to the other NA servers if we use unique player population.

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@diamondgirl.6315 said:

1. While guilds and alliances will have something to fight for (their own reputation), players that choose to play alone or avoid guild association will lose a sense of community with the server/world they've been a part of for so long.
  • Why do you choose to play WvW alone?
  • What benefit do you gain from avoiding guild association that you do gain from server association?
  • What would be the difference between your current situation if you were to join a 'casual/community' guild/alliance for shard placements only and not rep a guild tag?
  • What specific parts of WvW do you enjoy most or feel are the most rewarding as a solo player?
  • What options exist for the proposed WvW changes to be implemented while addressing your concerns for losing your identity?

I have been using a neighborhood sports bar as an analogy for a 'server' as it is presently constituted; I think it is useful.

I'm not hanging out at the bar 'alone,' I am hanging out with the other regulars.
If the server is a bar, you are basically saying; 'What benefit do you gain from avoiding wearing your Yankees jersey to the bar that you do gain from going to the same regular bar?' Easy; I get to hang out with the regulars, and I don't care what team they root for. I can rep the Yankees when I go to the ballgame/raid.
  • I think a community guild is actually a good solution for people who have grown attached to each other as regular militia. It would be like if our bar closed and we all just went to another bar up the street together. There would be a few new faces, but soon we would all be regulars together.
  • I think 'solo' is not a good word for the concept you are trying to describe. I enjoy scouting, flipping camps, escorting yaks, tiering towers, placing and refreshing siege, defending objectives, etc., WITH the other regulars at the bar. The thing that binds us is the effort we put into maintaining the map, not the four letters next to our names.
  • The only thing I can see right now that would help is the aforementioned casual community guild, so we can get sorted together. But even that is not perfect. A lot of us belong to guilds, and our guilds are going to get us automatically sorted away from each other. Right now I can choose to hang out with my regulars at the bar, OR I can go clubbing with my friends. I can do both in one day, in fact.

I think Diamond has a good bit about it. Its about seeing common faces and people you are used to helping out and that have helped you out even if you don't share a table with.

My go to if no one is on or doing anything is WvW. That means I solo quite a bit since I also sleep less. When others are on we run a havoc squad, be that 2-10 people. Solo or havoc we will often run and try and compliment movements of tags (off-havoc is our term). Example, tag is hitting bay, then take SWC/NWC and intercept reinforcements coming from garri. Use as little people as possible to cause as much trouble to try and pull numbers off so that tag can achieve their objective. Tag is moving to defend, join up and add to defensive numbers and counter-havoc their havocs if needed, build what they need, head out resupply come back and pick off inbound attackers.

We don't do this for the guild of the tag or for our own but since it aids the server. We will defend that which can't be defended because the server owns it and that means we need to try and stop them. Now when you get a bigger server that's made up of more people like this and see similar names doing this you do end up aiding them even more. Wait, Bob is falling behind and here comes the wolves, break and turn and try and help em out, look big make them think there is more behind us. So I think the difference here is some of us already see ourselves in larger guilds outside of the one that we are repping, and that's the server itself. Now the new system will have means to replicate this but requires still a guild structure versus the server which has no additional overhead in its own way since it just is. So not quite the same.

Now why not just run in a larger guild. As I said already in a small guild with a mixed lot of PvXers, that said we have full WvW capabilities at level 66, multiple scribes with upgrades ready to go, usually running with a full compliment of superior & guild siege. ACs, Catas, Trebs, Bali, and Rams. Running separate we can claim as needed to provide area buffs and extra supply capacities without having to wait for permission or overriding another claim. If we want to run in a Warband or zerg, we can run on tag since our existing server is already made up of many smaller guilds that are used to coming together as needed for engagements.

To the devs, the idea of a WvW guild spot outside of the existing 5 would help so that people could ensure having spots to join server guilds if a server wanted to try and stick together outside of the alliance method. Even though it shouldn't make a difference its that lose of history that there is no good way around since the random 8 week names will lose out. Oh its 'x' server, watch for the havocs, its 'z' server watch out for those map blobs, it's 'y' lookout for those gank groups. Those first weeks of any new 8 week pairings will be the rough ones as people sort themselves out.

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@glass.3245 said:

@"Tolmos.8395" said:I would like to reiterate the previous questions posed, and not yet answered, about how this will affect Roleplayers.This is something we hadn’t fully considered and we’ll start looking into possible solutions.

It would be nice if you roleplayers could enter WvW in "guest mode" and be seen as NPCs by the other players. More than once I've gone into a group full burst before noticing say chat and trying to disengage. The tone of frustration suggested that this was pretty common.This goes beyond players in WvW. World is used as one of the considerations when picking what instances of a map someone will go on. Removing the ability for the RP community to pick a single world reduces the chance for them to matched in a map instance with each other in the game at large without already being in the same guild or in a squad. We'd like to find a way to fix this if we can.
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@MaLeVoLenT.8129 said:

@Cyczer.7834 said:You just have to join them and choose them as your wvw guild and you can keep playing with your friends.

Did Anet say you
have to
?

Guilds is only for sorting players on the world. In the extreme example of someone having 0 guilds joining WvW, I'm assuming he will just join a random world thats not full, for the duration of being logged on. Another random world the next time he logs etc. Alternativly setting that random world as the home world until reset.

At least that would be the logical method.

Thats exactly what it is, you have to join guilds if you dont wanna rely on your luck to being put in same server. Otherwise you'll be placed randomly.

Its not by random. Its based off you contacts and what guilds you are in. who you party with. So if you choose to not have any guild claimed as your WvW guild, it will STILL take into account what guilds you're in when it places you. Furthermore Arena Net has alluded to the fact, that it is still able for such an individual to Transfer during the 8 week Season so you are indeed never trapped.

This is not totally correct. When suggesting a world to a player that hasn't been assigned one (new player, one returning after a long time away from the game, etc) we will present the player with a few worlds to choose from. We'd like this to consider friends, guilds, etc when picking the worlds to suggest but these same considerations are not planned when the server build worlds with the players, guilds and alliances known to the system.

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@FrizzFreston.5290 said:There's still the question as to why a guild would need a switch to be set as WvWguild or activate the possibility to be repped for WvW.This puts the option of how the guild works into the hands of the people managing the guild. This also could be used for future features where a guild needs to be identified as a WvW guild. I'll add this to the list of things to discuss and think about though.

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@Raymond Lukes.6305 said:

@"Tolmos.8395" said:I would like to reiterate the previous questions posed, and not yet answered, about how this will affect Roleplayers.This is something we hadn’t fully considered and we’ll start looking into possible solutions.

It would be nice if you roleplayers could enter WvW in "guest mode" and be seen as NPCs by the other players. More than once I've gone into a group full burst before noticing say chat and trying to disengage. The tone of frustration suggested that this was pretty common.This goes beyond players in WvW. World is used as one of the considerations when picking what instances of a map someone will go on. Removing the ability for the RP community to pick a single world reduces the chance for them to matched in a map instance with each other in the game at large without already being in the same guild or in a squad. We'd like to find a way to fix this if we can.

Very happy to see that this is on y’alls radar. Just knowing you are aware of the situation and hopeful to find a solution is a big boost of confidence.

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good to see you don't care about communities anymore. there was a special feeling i got when i would take a break from this game only to log back in and get hellos and whispers from players that haven't seen me in a very long time. After breaks it was good to see the same faces and players still around after years of playing. none of that will happen anymore. when you allow players to transfer and leave it up to them they will find a way to rig the system. your alliance will be 8 weeks of a power full alliance rotfstomping the others. you didn't learn a thing from linking. more numbers doesn't equal fun gameplay. remember that and stop promoting blob play. stop with the braindead spamming every skill in fights.

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what about the ones that do not wish to join a guild and do not care to join wvw but yet are forced to make a new server if you will choice when this goes live maybe in the 7 months that you talked about . back in your early posting of this topic

you failed to also answer question asked about Gift of Mastery ,Gift of Conquering, Gift of War Prosperity, Gift of the Mists will these be removed from wvw . or changed so it is more for pve players to get for crafting

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@Raymond Lukes.6305 said:

@"FrizzFreston.5290" said:There's still the question as to why a guild would need a switch to be set as WvWguild or activate the possibility to be repped for WvW.This puts the option of how the guild works into the hands of the people managing the guild. This also could be used for future features where a guild needs to be identified as a WvW guild. I'll add this to the list of things to discuss and think about though.

Imo if a player set the guild for WvW seems logic that the player have to rep the same guild, i mean we are leaving behind the "server pride" and you should enforce the idea of "guild pride", repping should be something more important, and maybe some kind of stuff like "if you rep your wvw guild you get extra wxp" or something like that. Idk you should promote the idea of repping the main guild while in WvW.

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