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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of any game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Advocating for change when the system works fine without infringing on player freedom is a fools errand. We have seen what happens when 5 players who don't always get along are locked into 10-20min encounters. You get league of legends.

YOU say its time for a change. And that literally means nothing to me, or anyone else. Prove a change is needed or your statement is nothing but pandering to the weak.

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Look, I tried to play this game without the meta builds for the longest time because I was dead-set on being original, but after years of noobing around I finally realized that you become original through playstyle, and occasionally in part some minor build modifications such as one, maybe two, maybe even three trait modifications if it's WvW or PvP that might suit your playstyle. But if the meta build for your class/role is dramatically more effective than everything else, you outright avoid it at your own peril. You want to roll with the t4 squads - great, get a meta build. You want to roll with the t4 squads without a meta build? Feel free to join a like-minded squad and spend twice the amount of time doing your t4s, you have the right to do it and no one is stopping you.

It's not elitism. It's efficiency and you're more than welcome to be inefficient and stubborn, all due respect.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:TIL play the way I want/like = I am bad player

Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no. It depends. Why wouldn't it depend? Of course playing the way you like could result in positive or negative results, why wouldn't it? It just depends man. I'm sure you've been in at least one situation in your life so far where you've done something 'the way you wanted to' and quickly learned that, surprise, sometimes it's possible that 'the way you want to do something' isn't a good idea in some situations.

You can take two positions here. The victim aka "I'm a perfect being and I do things how I want and if I don't get good results it's because the system is flawed" OR "I'm a responsible but flawed being and I do things how I need to do and always get pretty good results because I'm orderly". I don't mean to get too philosophical but, seriously. I mean that's it.

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@FrostDraco.8306 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Advocating for change when the system works fine without infringing on player freedom is a fools errand. We have seen what happens when 5 players who don't always get along are locked into 10-20min encounters. You get league of legends.

YOU say its time for a change. And that literally means nothing to me, or anyone else. Prove a change is needed or your statement is nothing but pandering to the weak.

I play league of legends and the same think i see in fractals i see in league of legends. I have 2 accounds there, one diamond and one gold and when i play on gold acc toxicity is much higher. If you take lfg group 100000000 KP 50k arena points LNHB then you will get top tier players like you that dont need to argue because they all are very experianced. Thats the reason why they do these lfg requirements.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524"

Yes there are fewer anything goes LFG's going up for currently existing fractals.

You've identified the wrong cause.

When Fractals were first released 100% of the game's population that wanted the rewards that came from Fractals did not have it. This includes those who love to play the meta and those who prefer to play whatever build floats their boat that hour. So you had a mixture of groups: meta and anything goes. As time goes on, more and more people get the rewards from Fractals that they want. And some people will stop playing Fractals once they've gotten the rewards they want from it. Fractals weren't fun for them (or whatever the reason is they stopped). Some of the PUG people will form static groups. Once the external rewards are gone, it turns to the intrinsic rewards to keep people playing a game mode. The "Is it fun" factor becomes the number 1 factor here.

So people play the fractals. And it's the same fractals every time. After awhile, the new wears off and it's no longer fun to just run through the content. We're at this step. Most casuals have gotten all the rewards they want from Fractals and it's just not fun anymore to just run through Fractals, especially if you spend a lot of time wiping due to bad group composition (which can happen in anything goes groups). So some casuals will drop out. Others will begin to invest in learning the meta. Because that adds a challenge of learning a new build. Some of those casuals who learn the meta won't mind doing so in anything goes groups. Others will gravitate towards the meta preferred groups.

So yes, more groups are advertising for meta groups and for experienced players. Because most fractal players have played all of the fractals over 100 times and they're just running it to get the drops and gold for it and the run itself isn't that fun anymore. So they want to get in, get out, and on to whatever aspect of the game they find fun as quickly as possible. Not spend 30+ minutes in a teaching run or 30+ minutes in a run with a ton of wipes. Because Fractals when you get in and get out are some of the highest gold/hour in the game. But it's not that way if you spend 30+ minutes in a single fractal.

Until ANet adds in a decent amount of new Fractal rewards, this is likely going to be the case.

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726I think what you're trying to say is : is it neccessary for the job. Won't go through details since your's only a nuance, but i think this is an easy to solve issue and let's just stop with restricting or limiting freedom to play for players is not a solution.

I'm not good with words but I'll try put one here. There's a solution to everything. But what makes a solution to a problem hard/complex is most of the time people tend to get the result in their favor in addition to the solution. And it goes both ways.

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@Seera.5916 said:@"Trevor Boyer.6524"

Yes there are fewer anything goes LFG's going up for currently existing fractals.

You've identified the wrong cause.

When Fractals were first released 100% of the game's population that wanted the rewards that came from Fractals did not have it. This includes those who love to play the meta and those who prefer to play whatever build floats their boat that hour. So you had a mixture of groups: meta and anything goes. As time goes on, more and more people get the rewards from Fractals that they want. And some people will stop playing Fractals once they've gotten the rewards they want from it. Fractals weren't fun for them (or whatever the reason is they stopped). Some of the PUG people will form static groups. Once the external rewards are gone, it turns to the intrinsic rewards to keep people playing a game mode. The "Is it fun" factor becomes the number 1 factor here.

So people play the fractals. And it's the same fractals every time. After awhile, the new wears off and it's no longer fun to just run through the content. We're at this step. Most casuals have gotten all the rewards they want from Fractals and it's just not fun anymore to just run through Fractals, especially if you spend a lot of time wiping due to bad group composition (which can happen in anything goes groups). So some casuals will drop out. Others will begin to invest in learning the meta. Because that adds a challenge of learning a new build. Some of those casuals who learn the meta won't mind doing so in anything goes groups. Others will gravitate towards the meta preferred groups.

So yes, more groups are advertising for meta groups and for experienced players. Because most fractal players have played all of the fractals over 100 times and they're just running it to get the drops and gold for it and the run itself isn't that fun anymore. So they want to get in, get out, and on to whatever aspect of the game they find fun as quickly as possible. Not spend 30+ minutes in a teaching run or 30+ minutes in a run with a ton of wipes. Because Fractals when you get in and get out are some of the highest gold/hour in the game. But it's not that way if you spend 30+ minutes in a single fractal.

Until ANet adds in a decent amount of new Fractal rewards, this is likely going to be the case.

I can confirm this. I've always pugged fractals. And T4 pugs are pure pain. Now that I have my omnipotion, ad infinitum, and mastery points, I have no reason to subject myself to that punishment anymore. And I'm totally supportive of people who want to run meta groups. It must be fun to tear through that content in a PROPER group full of skilled people. And, if I ever went back to doing them again, that's how I'd be looking to do it.

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@Fallesafe.5932 said:

@Seera.5916 said:@"Trevor Boyer.6524"

Yes there are fewer anything goes LFG's going up for currently existing fractals.

You've identified the wrong cause.

When Fractals were first released 100% of the game's population that wanted the rewards that came from Fractals did not have it. This includes those who love to play the meta and those who prefer to play whatever build floats their boat that hour. So you had a mixture of groups: meta and anything goes. As time goes on, more and more people get the rewards from Fractals that they want. And some people will stop playing Fractals once they've gotten the rewards they want from it. Fractals weren't fun for them (or whatever the reason is they stopped). Some of the PUG people will form static groups. Once the external rewards are gone, it turns to the intrinsic rewards to keep people playing a game mode. The "Is it fun" factor becomes the number 1 factor here.

So people play the fractals. And it's the same fractals every time. After awhile, the new wears off and it's no longer fun to just run through the content. We're at this step. Most casuals have gotten all the rewards they want from Fractals and it's just not fun anymore to just run through Fractals, especially if you spend a lot of time wiping due to bad group composition (which can happen in anything goes groups). So some casuals will drop out. Others will begin to invest in learning the meta. Because that adds a challenge of learning a new build. Some of those casuals who learn the meta won't mind doing so in anything goes groups. Others will gravitate towards the meta preferred groups.

So yes, more groups are advertising for meta groups and for experienced players. Because most fractal players have played all of the fractals over 100 times and they're just running it to get the drops and gold for it and the run itself isn't that fun anymore. So they want to get in, get out, and on to whatever aspect of the game they find fun as quickly as possible. Not spend 30+ minutes in a teaching run or 30+ minutes in a run with a ton of wipes. Because Fractals when you get in and get out are some of the highest gold/hour in the game. But it's not that way if you spend 30+ minutes in a single fractal.

Until ANet adds in a decent amount of new Fractal rewards, this is likely going to be the case.

I can confirm this. I've always pugged fractals. And T4 pugs are
pure pain
. Now that I have my omnipotion, ad infinitum, and mastery points, I have no reason to subject myself to that punishment anymore. And I'm totally supportive of people who want to run meta groups. It must be fun to tear through that content in a PROPER group full of skilled people. And, if I ever went back to doing them again, that's how I'd be looking to do it.

It feels rewarding, that's for sure. And I don't mean the in-game rewards, I mean the feeling of performing well, doing a good job at your role. To me, this feel is what offsets the worn-out novelty of the content and keeps fractals (or raids, for that matter) fun. So yeah. I don't see myself going back to playing with a ragtag group of random builds. It can't possibly offer me anything.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of
any
game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a complete different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often!

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of
any
game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a
complete
different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often!

This would discourage newer players from fractals. "Why should i gear char in full ascended when it will be worthless next month"

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@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:"Why should i gear charr in full ascended when it will be worthless in 2 months"

Ah, I was expecting this one, but I also happen to be a big advocate of templates (never been mentioned before on these forums :) ) and a broader implementation of account unlocks and easier/cheaper switching/transferring gear from one character to another! That solves that issue! (GW1 had it :) )

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of
any
game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a
complete
different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often!

Very few players can master a build in such a short period, so what this would do is make the vast majority of the player population feel useless, get annoyed and eventually quit.

On your other "solution", you can't quantify all differences. You can measure dps difference. You can't measure the effect of added utility. If you homogenize the available utility, you take away profession identity. It's always a give and take. And that's just an example, there are other factors as well. I don't think the level of balance you speak of is even possible without ruining the fun of playing the game.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of
any
game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a
complete
different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often!

Very few players can master a build in such a short period, so what this would do is make the vast majority of the player population feel useless, get annoyed and eventually quit.

On your other "solution", you can't quantify all differences. You can measure dps difference. You can't measure the effect of added utility. If you homogenize the available utility, you take away profession identity. It's always a give and take. And that's just an example, there are other factors as well. I don't think the level of balance you speak of is even possible without ruining the fun of playing the game.

I completely agree with your second part, but on your first part I would question you straight away: Is the inability (for a lot of players) to quickly master your new build really a problem??? If anything, it will help towards leveling the playing field. Because your old build is still usable, in fact, in practice it's probably up to par to an 'on paper' better build, but which is just not mastered by a lot of people yet! And a more (in practice) leveled playing field, will mean that it also doesn't really matter what you ask when you go into T4 fractals (CM) or raids, cause whether it's META or not, the practicality of it all, is that the efficiency will be pretty much the same (or close to each other) (which is definitely not the case at the moment, T4 fractals will go a lot faster if I go with my Weaver then if I take my Scourge for instance, while I'm far more practiced (and even better geared) with my Scourge than Weaver)

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of
any
game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a
complete
different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often!

Very few players can master a build in such a short period, so what this would do is make the vast majority of the player population feel useless, get annoyed and eventually quit.

On your other "solution", you can't quantify all differences. You can measure dps difference. You can't measure the effect of added utility. If you homogenize the available utility, you take away profession identity. It's always a give and take. And that's just an example, there are other factors as well. I don't think the level of balance you speak of is even possible without ruining the fun of playing the game.

I completely agree with your second part, but on your first part I would question you straight away: Is the inability (for a lot of players) to quickly master your new build really a problem??? If anything, it will help towards leveling the playing field. Because your old build is still usable, in fact, in practice it's probably up to par to an 'on paper' better build, but which is just not mastered by a lot of people yet! And a more (in practice) leveled playing field, will mean that it also doesn't really matter what you ask when you go into T4 fractals (CM) or raids, cause whether it's META or not, the practicality of it all, is that the efficiency will be pretty much the same (or close to each other) (which is definitely not the case at the moment, T4 fractals will go a lot faster if I go with my Weaver then if I take my Scourge for instance, while I'm far more practiced (and even better geared) with my Scourge than Weaver)

You seem to want changes that are both big enough to make players want to change and small enough so that the end result doesn't matter. The two are mutually exclusive.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:Your problem is that you're assuming acceptance as your right. It isn't. It never is. When you apply for a job, you go to an interview and you're required to meet certain requirements.

Hmmmmmmmmmm, if we go by that analogy, you
could
say that the requirements in this case are that of your cultural background ..... or maybe even race/skin color ....... Not sure if we should further this discussion before it gets into a very volatile one! (Btw, big disclaimer here, it's a joke of course, really don't want to get into some kind of a weird discussion here!)Anywho, I still don't think we should look into the community to change or adept to anything if the facilitator (read: ANet) imo is the only one that can and should take action! Having such a specific and heavily set META for ages now, is just not healthy .... It never is .... It's time for change. And imo, the solution is exactly
that
: change and preferably in the future more frequently as well!

Meta is a natural result of a game, of
any
game. Saying that it's not healthy is like saying water shouldn't get you wet. The only way you can make players not care about the meta is if you make them not care about the game itself. But then they'd just leave and the game would die.

I presume you were talking to me, cause you were quoting me. But I never said that I'm against META, I'm just against the current very long sitting meta. In fractals and raids, it has been Chrono/BS/Druid .... for ages now (with only a few small tweaks, nothing major). If it was up to me, we would have a
complete
different META every month (or maybe even every 2 weeks), which will also enable a lot more build designing/(theory-)crafting/min-maxing, etc. Which is something I like to do. Now it's just another: and TOP-DPS goes to ..... - drum roll - .... ahhhh, it's Ele AGAIN (since 2012), etc.!There's also another solution, and that's really balancing up to a point where every class/spec/build/trait/skill (even) is balanced up to a point of max. 3% difference to others. But that's going to be FAR more complex and imo will become tedious in the long run! If it's up to me: really spice things up with balance patches (not 5% auto-attack increase) and have them even more often!

Very few players can master a build in such a short period, so what this would do is make the vast majority of the player population feel useless, get annoyed and eventually quit.

On your other "solution", you can't quantify all differences. You can measure dps difference. You can't measure the effect of added utility. If you homogenize the available utility, you take away profession identity. It's always a give and take. And that's just an example, there are other factors as well. I don't think the level of balance you speak of is even possible without ruining the fun of playing the game.

I completely agree with your second part, but on your first part I would question you straight away: Is the inability (for a lot of players) to quickly master your new build really a problem??? If anything, it will help towards leveling the playing field. Because your old build is still usable, in fact, in practice it's probably up to par to an 'on paper' better build, but which is just not mastered by a lot of people yet! And a more (in practice) leveled playing field, will mean that it also doesn't really matter what you ask when you go into T4 fractals (CM) or raids, cause whether it's META or not, the practicality of it all, is that the efficiency will be pretty much the same (or close to each other) (which is definitely not the case at the moment, T4 fractals will go a lot faster if I go with my Weaver then if I take my Scourge for instance, while I'm far more practiced (and even better geared) with my Scourge than Weaver)

You seem to want changes that are both big enough to make players want to change and small enough so that the end result doesn't matter. The two are mutually exclusive.

Let me correct that sentence for you:You seem to want changes that are big enough to make players want to change therefore also big enough so that the end result on paper does matter! The two are causally connected!In practicality, (just like in real life analogies: take your own example of looking for a job for instance), the differences between mastering something compared to merely meeting the requirements can differ hugely - even more so in an ever changing world - !!! Also causally connected!

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Maybe it's easier if I give an example in a Flavour of the Month setting:I expect the following, let's say March 2018, your optimal DPSer on paper would be a Deadeye, best boon share results would come from a Renegade and the biggest healing numbers comes from a Necro, etc. (obviously all sucked into a vacuum, because if I really have to specify a full detailed scope here, I'd might just apply at ANet straight away). Now the LFG might look like this:T4+CM's: Ren, BN (Blood Necro), 3 DPS (pref. Deadeyes) P+F+KP.But coming April 2018, it might be this:T4+CM's: Chrono, Druid, BS, 2DPS (pref. Weaver) P+F+KP. (looks familiar right?)But I expect that already after month 3, with the practical efficiency of an ever changing environment in mind, ppl are not even going to bother anymore, and will ask something like:T4+ CM's: Heal, CC, 3 DPS P+F+KPor:T4+CM's: Heal, 4 whatevers P+F+KPor just:T4 + CM's + recs P+F+KP

I actually like the last examples far better than the first (very specific META-rized) ones!

I have to say, this is obviously all theorycrafting, but something I would definitely like to see pan out.In a general way of speaking I've never heard an exciting ever so dynamic game is chasing ppl away. On the opposite: I have heard of a same ol' stuck (= current META) gaming environment, chasing ppl away!

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What you expect is an illusion. In reality, it will end up in one of two scenarios. Either people will be miserable and quitting because they can't properly play anything - which will lead to dramatically more toxicity. Or everything will be so power-crept that it wouldn't even matter - which will lead to people getting bored and quitting.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:In a way I agree with you, I really do. But when further examining the roots of what births prejudice and discrimination, one can see that it is elitist behavior. The interesting thing is that when a minority undergoes exclusion, whether IRL or in an MMORPG, it is not seen as elitism because the majority has made some elitist expectation a standard. But when the minority excludes the majority to push and create an elitist standard, it is then seen as elitism. Two good examples of this are:

  • Kids playing kickball on a playground. A couple kids are always last to be picked. No one wants them on their team because they don't meet the standard of expectation. That or maybe people just don't want to give them a chance for whatever reason. This scenario would commonly be seen as discrimination.
  • The Skull And Bones Society through Yale University will not invite anyone into the society or even to any secret meetings of any kind, unless they meet a high level of expectation and/or interest. This is seen as elitism.

What is even more interesting is that elitism and things like prejudice/discrimination/exclusion are intrinsically the same exact thing. The behavior and psychological state of mind when performing the process of elitism/prejudice/discrimination, is the same exact thing. The only difference is that the word discrimination would be used when a large field of kids playing kickball decide that two kids don't meet "the meta" and don't want to play with them, whilst the word elitism would be used when a very small minority of well educated and privileged human beings decide who doesn't meet "the meta" to be a Skull Society member. Again, the behavior and process is the same thing. The only difference is when it is the majority deciding who is bad or when a minority is deciding who isn't good enough, but it the same exact thing.

What is important to understand about a particular instance of discrimination or elitism are the details behind the instance and if it was practical discrimination/elitism or simply ignorance and reluctance to see past a cliché trend or majority opinion:

  • The majority of the kids on the kickball field were in 8th grade. One of the kids being discriminated against was only in 6th grade. He looked smaller and less capable than the 8th graders which is why no one wanted him on their team. One could say "his visible APs were low and he wasn't wearing any legendary gear. They didn't think he would make a good team member". But if they would have given him a chance, they would have seen that he kept up just fine and in some cases, was faster and more accurate than the older kids because, little Joey was genetically destined to become a professional soccer player.
  • The Skull And Bones Society in the past, would discriminate based on wealth/race/sexuality. Imagine the candidates who were not picked up, that indeed went on to form "the meta" in various aspects of NA culture/law/sociology.

The above are examples of ignorance and reluctance to see past a cliché trend or majority opinion. The following are examples of practical exclusion/elitism:

  • The other kid sitting out that no one wants on their team is a kid who has played with the other children many times. He often bullies and starts fights with the rest of his team mates, doesn't listen to plays and does only what he wants and in general, causes problems every time he plays. He also isn't very good in general and is a terrible pick for a winning team.
  • The Skull And Bones Society rejects a particular person because they know he struggles through his schooling, barely makes the grade, his skills aren't of particular interest and his family lineage offers no special access to any establishments of interest, despite the fact that he wanted in so badly. He just didn't meet the "meta" expectations. If they were to let him in, even his sole presence would begin to lower the standard of expectation within the elite establishment, which is after all, supposed to be elite.

The above are examples of practical elitism/discrimination with purpose.

So I think it isn't really about what is elitism or what isn't but rather when is elitism ok? When is elitism practical and when is it just being unreasonable or even egotistical? Elitism when forming a high functioning raid guild is perfectly reasonable. But elitism when forming groups for casual content, is it really worth it? Are the pros for that one group greater than the cons spread through the whole community?

I largely agree with your ideas. As child educator, I have seen first graders that could outplay, outrun and outwit an average fourth grader and were still the odd man out until they reached at least 2nd grade and the then 4th graders took them seriously. The pure talent the firstgrader had did not matter, neither did the fact that his team often won through his actions. Small = useless, it´s so sad to see sometimes. It´s even more severe with smaller girls who then begin to develop fear of sports games in general and feel inferior to boys on the playing ground.

Adults don´t shed this attitude if you do not remind them constantly about it as children. Equality and fair play is hard to instill in the children of those people who are used to take what they want with the idea that they sometime, somewhere worked for it and now it belongs to them by default.

I would not have used Skulls and bones as example. Wasn´t George Bush junior a member of that society, as a then notorious drunkyard whose job was to be a son?

You will also never get rid of elitists, no matter which game mode you play. Some people just cant stand if others do not meet their expections and don´t accept other approaches.

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Why don't any of you guys make your own group?Why do you complain and complain about how your being treated in your party w/o attempting to make your own?

Even outside of that what elitism are you talking about i just did fotm t4s with a power renegade and no one complained while i did an abyssmal 9k dps.

100cm? Yeah there gonna be elitism there because its hard.Theres no elistism 99cm and down i do Fotm daily most this thread is utter BS.

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@"Genesis.5169" said:Why don't any of you guys make your own group?Why do you complain and complain about how your being treated in your party w/o attempting to make your own?

Even outside of that what elitism are you talking about i just did fotm t4s with a power renegade and no one complained while i did an abyssmal 9k dps.

100cm? Yeah there gonna be elitism there because its hard.Theres no elistism 99cm and down i do Fotm daily most this thread is utter BS.

Exactly. 11 pages of exaggeration. Every day T4 99 and down is fine. 100CM they want the best, and rightly so because it's hard. There's nothing wrong at all, and nothing stopping anyone making their own group with their own rules.

We even had a group with 4 necros and one time 3 druids, did anyone get kicked? No, we laughed and still did it. Usually there's always a few premium builds anyway, very rarely you end up with the worst possible composition.

If I join a group and there's a double up on druids, I will ask if they want me to go SB or dps, usually I get "Whatever you want". So yes, this thread has massive exaggerations, and 100CM is the way it is for very good reasons.

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What you expect is an illusion. In reality, ... - put you're very arbitrary conclusion in here -

Easy argumentation = easy argumentation! Imo not really adding to the discussion!Anyway, my glass sphere isn't properly working atm, I can't predict the future, so again, I would actually really like to see what happens if we do see these kind of changes, instead of a far more easier prediction on the barely ever changing culture that we have seen for ages now.

On another note: Balance patch out .... we'll see if it changes anything ...

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OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

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Maybe I am just lucky, or maybe it is because I play heal druid but I haven't really faced much elitism in fractals, even with those groups that have trouble. I am not good enough at druiding to carry a group, but I haven't faced people who blame me for that. This is with joining groups who ask for heal druid, groups that ask for pots and food, and groups that don't as for anything. The only groups I don't join are those who specifically ask for dps or those that do CMs (I am still trying to learn those). I will say though, I love it when groups stack up on me. Especially in chaos when we stack up nice and tight and are able to CC the boss.

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@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Weerus.3701" said:OP, you are blindly trying to use victim card called elitism. Raid builds are most used for a reason. I would encourage everyone to try strict copy, and if they can't preform well with it, tweak around it, change some skills or traits at the cost of some dps. If you can't afford it, get the general idea, and make the closest approximation. Make it, so that build works out for you. You ought to give it your best when there is an instanced party for dungeons, raids, fractals or spvp. Open world wvw or pve solo/squads, you are free to use whatever. Just please don't try to drag people down, not everyone has the patience as me to waste hours on end helping ppl without proper builds and skill, just so that they use victim card ingame or on forums.

Some people are so underperforming that it takes 1 T4 fractal instance literally more that 30min to complete. There was a time I sticked with such people, helped them, gave some advices, but everything was received poorly from their side. I decided I don't have 3 hours of time to waste everyday just to complete T4 daily fractals, thus I started to advertise my party as "T4 daily (food&pots)". If people bring their own food and potions(even if cheap variants), for me that's a sign that person is really trying their best, to help the party make enjoyable and fast T4 clear, and I really respect that. That's far from elitism. As for classes, I take whatever comes in first, and I always do T4 dailies with a power warrior friend (so not elitist to begin with). Even so, sometimes it happens that party synergy is just too low, and we fail to do one instance over and over again. At that point someone will 99% leave, and only then will Istart searching for heal druid, to help my party members survive.

As for dps meters, they are needed to some extent. I never bashed anyone for their dps or threatened that "I'm watching" . I like to monitor my own dps, and compare it to dps of other classes. A lot of people are even asking if anyone uses dps meters and if you can give them report at the end of the fight. So the only ones that are against them, are really the people that are trying to hide something. The fact that they play with blue gear? The fact that they only 111111,6,11111111,6? I don't know..What I would like to see is some kind of ingame buff table, so I could monitor party alacrity/quickness uptime, since I use chrono quite a lot

Victim card? I think you need to reread the OP statement and read through the thread as well, which is an extension of the OP statement. All that was said was: "Raid Meta Elitism is unnecessary for the completion of T4 fractal daily runs" and it is. It was other people making assumptions in their conjecture that turned the discussion into strange places, sort of like your statements.

Vague & Broad statements for the troll bro.

I agree that it is not nececary but its more efficent then 5 random classes. Thats why some players require meta comp.

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