Discussion about Confusion [merged] - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Discussion about Confusion [merged]

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  • I Heal Ur Wounds.8165I Heal Ur Wounds.8165 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    The change is good, well done. Mesmer was way too much strong(both in pvp and pve) compared to other classes, indeed was in need of a fix.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • This nerf should not have hit PvE. I understand the nerf in PvP and WvW.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trakarg.2095 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    Great, I have to use weapons I don't like to still do well? I want to play an AXE mesmer. I enjoy AXE. I wanted to make Astralaria. I don't care if other builds are still good.

    Believe it or not, there will always be someone who doesn't like the weapons on the meta builds for any class. That doesn't mean there is a problem with that class.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    I'm definitely keen to check out this staff build....

    but i loved the axe build.

    so... was it A-net's intention to make axe a PvP only weapon? is that why they never fixed axe 3's ability to kill you while fighting Vale Guardian? a subtle hint to use diffrent weapons?

    also.... wont the staff build do less dps in group, because the projectiles will bounce to allies and only apply boons? (that everyone else is already supplying)

  • @Trakarg.2095 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    Great, I have to use weapons I don't like to still do well? I want to play an AXE mesmer. I enjoy AXE. I wanted to make Astralaria. I don't care if other builds are still good.

    How much DPS do you have to do to enjoy Axe?

  • @Corax.7381 said:

    @Trakarg.2095 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    Great, I have to use weapons I don't like to still do well? I want to play an AXE mesmer. I enjoy AXE. I wanted to make Astralaria. I don't care if other builds are still good.

    How much DPS do you have to do to enjoy Axe?

    probably enough to not get kicked from high end raids.

  • @Corax.7381 said:

    @Trakarg.2095 said:

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    Great, I have to use weapons I don't like to still do well? I want to play an AXE mesmer. I enjoy AXE. I wanted to make Astralaria. I don't care if other builds are still good.

    How much DPS do you have to do to enjoy Axe?

    It wasn't overpowered before. What it was doing before would have been fine, lol.

  • Blaeys.3102Blaeys.3102 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    The damage over time not benefiting from condition damage is obviously a change that was made for the sake of PvP and WvW. There is zero reason this should have been implemented in PVE. As theorycrafters and early testers have already shown, it cripples many potential mirage condi dps builds (and likely any other that relies on confusion in any way).

    The problem is obvious - confusion varies greatly based on the enemy you are fighting, but you cant realistically change from a condition to a non condition build between pulls. Players count on some consistency in pve, and this change makes the condition the opposite of consistent/reliable.

    This needs to be fixed sooner rather than forcing the change on the community for a full quarter.

  • nannorz.9548nannorz.9548 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    I have this legendary axe that I don't know what to do with now. Its useless on soulbeast, and now useless on Mirage. Put it in my bank I guess. Mesmer was the only profession I enjoyed. I got used to playing support chrono for a really long time, but I was really looking forward to a dps role that was condi. I even bought all those infusions to increase my dps. Now I don't know what to do. My builds are useless in all 3 game modes. I guess that's it for me.

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    Nope. I hit the panic button for my Mirage :scream:

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • Its really simple, ANET went way too far in their brilliant idea to change things and cut mesmer back to the point where raid spots will go elsewhere. The changes were poorly designed and implemented as a way to appease the PVP crowd at the expense of the PVE crowd. Anet proves that knee jerk reactions are their MO and keep on doing it.

  • dontlook.1823dontlook.1823 Member ✭✭✭

    Crushed it. Crushed that dream. How do you feel? What do you have to say for yourself?? Hmmm

    More, more. More is always better. Chakata

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:
    "Bursty" can be a good thing. But if the condition does damage so poor that you can ignore it and wait out the duration... Then the newly buffed activated portion will rarely happen.

    That usefulness of that is pretty obvious for a pvp environment if you can actually get someone to wait it out. That is effectively a daze that last as long as the confusion.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    Actually quite happy to see confusion back to doing what it should have done all along. Since widespread torment application is available now (the condition didn't exist at launch) there's no sense in having a condition which is yet another barely-different flavour of DoT.

  • @Ben K.6238 said:
    Actually quite happy to see confusion back to doing what it should have done all along. Since widespread torment application is available now (the condition didn't exist at launch) there's no sense in having a condition which is yet another barely-different flavour of DoT.

    save that more than half of mesmer's kit revolves around it. in order for it to be legit, you'd have to do quite a bit.

    the best condi builds ive seen sense the nerf, hit 21k thats pretty sad.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    @ThomasC.1056 said:
    Confusion has been severly gutted in all game modes, and condi mesmer, whose confusion was the main source of damage, will be a huge hassle to play now.

    I can understand the removal of the DoT part of confusion, eventhough, as @Astralporing.1957 said, it was the most significant part of damage in PvE where foes don't use skills as often. That's not what bothers me most.

    The thing is : we got some times ago a "massive conditions overhaul", where we were explained that conditions were supposed to be damage over time, ramping damage, shouldn't be bursty etc. And now, confusions gets nerfed in its DoT aspect and all the conditions duration have been severly reduced.

    The condition changes are going against the idea of DoT, against the idea of ramping damage (because short durations), which will result in an overall more bursty behaviour. It goes in the exact opposite way of the last conditions overhaul.

    Now, I'm not saying condi mesmer was perfect, and there has been lots of complains for a reason, but... Isn't that an issue with consistency ?

    .

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Confusion was supposed to be bursty hence the shorter cd but more quantity of stacks.

    First, last we heard conditions were supposed to be a slow ramp up longterm sustain types of damage, and burst was supposed to be power's domain. Second, there is no burst if there's no damage. And there's no damage if there's nothing to trigger it.

    Just for an extreme case, please do consider confusion damage on Mursaat Overseer now.

    @Astralporing.1957 and @ThomasC.1056
    Except you failed to see this quote from Karl back in December.

    @Karl McLain.5604 said:
    The primary design for confusion is 'burst'; it's expected to deliver a lot of stacks at once for low duration, punishing skill usage for a short while and then falling off quickly. Due to this difference in nature, we chose to leave it alone in this patch.

    This change is perfectly inline with Confusions design intent as stated by the Devs.

  • I liked the patch and I'm neutral on the confusion thing. But I think with the massive changes to mesmer, there needs to be a few paragraphs from the balance team explaining what their vision/goal is for mirage, chronomancer, and mesmer in general. is chronomancer now a DPS spec? is mirage now supposed to be a PvP spec? what are they being designed towards?

  • Bugabuga.9721Bugabuga.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @OriOri.8724 said:
    People need to calm down.

    I do not like the change to confusion in PvE. That said, mesmer DPS was not affected by it, you just have to change your build and rotation. Go to the mesmer forum. People have benchmarked power mesmer hitting 32k after this patch, and staff condi mirage has a SS of hitting 34k dps. This did not ruin mesmer's DPS, but it does make confusion suck in PvE and I don't agree with nerfing it so harshly

    As of right now, it's, basically "don't play condi mirage because it's now like Reaper in DPS due to confusion changes".
    Or "maybe you could theoretically get okay damage with staff clones build". Which will be funny -- we go from "passive" play of spawning pistol phantasms (not allowed! Horrible! Turn it off immediately!) to "have staff clones only, mirage cloak, press 1" ("engaging and dynamic play" with just one particular kind of clone being used, ha-ha)

    I wish PvP/WvW would be truly, really split. Keep PvE confusion as it was. Give PvP/WvW currently nerfed version. Everyone happy, phantasm condi builds sent to trash, power mesmer is great again, we cheer, we go home happy.

  • Lalainnia.3598Lalainnia.3598 Member ✭✭✭

    I personally just don't understand why it was made that the passive damage part was nerfed in that it doesn't scale with condition damage but the skill activation does. This isn't really what pve wanted or needed as its still pretty strong in pvp and wvw as ppl will use skills regardless if its cleansing or trying to escape recoup etc. On the other this full on crushed confusion as a condi in pve vs anything that doesn't have a high attack rate which is a lot things not even just raids.

    So I think at least the changes that we have now are pretty appropriate for spvp/wvw. While the changes for pve were nothing short of overkill, removing condition contribution to the passive damage tick of confusion is nothing but horrible and it needs that back, not at the strength it previously was but there needs to be some level of condition damage contribution towards the passive stacks.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    The change is good. The previous way confusion worked made the condition overpowered and was complitely ignoring its flavour.

    I totally agree that the pervious version ignored the flavor. I did like the condi at launch... But it was amazingly underpowered.

    Are you bothered by the ticking damage being unaffected by the condition damage stat?

    Confusion was just busted before this change now ot has counter play. Its up to the mesmer now to time thier skills to make sure the player will use somethig and get punished for it.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    Confusion was supposed to be bursty hence the shorter cd but more quantity of stacks.

    First, last we heard conditions were supposed to be a slow ramp up longterm sustain types of damage, and burst was supposed to be power's domain. Second, there is no burst if there's no damage. And there's no damage if there's nothing to trigger it.

    Just for an extreme case, please do consider confusion damage on Mursaat Overseer now.

    Not all of the conditions work like that. When the changes to the conditions happened and the devs were asked why confusion didnt get the same treatment the answer was because confusion aplies for less time but deal more dmg. The problem was thats wasnt good atm since confusion had a big dot on top of skill activation.

    In pvp its all about timing the aplication of confusion to make sure the other player wont have an opening and will have to use something, getting dmged in the process.

    Problem is this had to be split because like prehot this doesnt work in pve and i jope they will so confusion can finally be put to the side and focus on other stuff.

  • I personally love axe and will keep using it regardless of the confusion nerf.
    I play 80% of my time doing pvp. Yesterday, after 10 ranked matches in the top tier gold braket (8 won, 2 lost), I came out to be highest in damge in most of those matches. I do not remember exactly but I brelieve it was 60-70%.
    In pve, I mainly play open world events and bosses and I think the damage is still ok.
    I also like most of the changes to mesmer, so no problem for me

  • I just REALLY don't understand why this change was also made in PVE. Were the raid bosses complaining too much that confusion is hurting their little feelings? I bet it was Matthias he's a confused little boi. The PVE condi clone mirage was the best thing that ever happened to mesmer in this game and now I have to give up the up-close, personal and dynamic gameplay of the axe and take the slowish staff. Don't get me wrong, staff as an option is great but don't take axe away from us. I just really hope this change for PVE is not intentional because relying on mobs to attack often enough to get some dps is just not good and the fact that we had confusion like this previously which clearly wasn't working for PVE and now it's back to useless just doesn't make sense to me, at all.

  • miriforst.1290miriforst.1290 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    It's a good change.

    Remember what confusion was supposed to be from the beginning, it was a replacement for all the hexes like backfire and empathy which punished people for taking a certain action. So they had to always evaluate the least painful action and it was up to you as a mesmer to make sure to capitalize and steer them towards a certain point. Bleeding and burning are there if you want generic degeneration, and skills should be modified for that if damage over time is their purpose.

    I lost a little bit of trust when arenanet implemented torment as a semi bleed when not moving and lots of damage when moving thing. This was similar top the "half old" confusion change where you where damned if you do damned if you don't outside of clearing conditions without further input from the players.

    The compensation for this should be:
    1: A much longer duration in pve due to enemies using skills at a drastically slower rate.
    2: In the case of mesmers further tools to capitalize on your enemy taking a certain action like not attacking or moving. The later because that's what the original mesmer was all about, not butterflies or clones. It had proper mindgames. If you where under the effect of backfire/empathy and wastrels worry when the enemy could also interrupt your countermeasure for a solid chunk of damage you where bound to stress and make further bad decisions for the mesmer to capitalize on. Instead of being a purply back stabber assasin which just go boom. Scourges already got tools for capitalizing on torment with the impending doom of shades if you do not move.
    3: Replace torment and confusion with bleed for builds/skills that use it as its main form of damage (the boring illusion mesmer conjure phantasm builds so to speak). As i said if you want to do ramping damage over time there is a condition for that already. Why does it have to be purple? (This is also why i dislike the burning/poison stacking change).

    This change brings us back a little to more purity of purpose for conditions again where each condition had a specific purpose.

    -Purity of Purpose-
    P.S. You know, expert examination has worked this way since HOT release. You just updated the description.

    Also super speed does not stack, it overwrites. 5s + 1s=1s.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭

    While confusion changes kill the clone mirage build in PvE (if not a bug) condi mirage does not look useless as a whole as some think:
    This came up on reddit yesterday.

    https://i.imgur.com/ZjS33DD.jpg

  • Trae.2384Trae.2384 Member ✭✭✭

    I just geared fully and fell in love with my mirage, now Im considering it a berry farm/bag mule toon. What a waste of time and effort. This was completely unnecessary, let the droves crying about mirage in pvp effect pvp not blanket the entire game. Who in their right mind would have ever thought this was even reasonable let alone a good idea.

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    I don’t understand. I really don’t. They buffed Torment’s passive damage because PvE enemies didn’t move around enough to make it viable in PvE.

    Makes no sense to have these changes to Confusion affect PvE as it goes against the design philosophy they displayed with Torment - like Torment, it just doesn’t have the potential to work on mobs like it does against other players.

    Why wasn’t this a PvP-exclusive change?

    To me, they broke Confusion in PvE with this. It ticks for 200-500 damage on Raid bosses with full Ascended Viper.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Bugabuga.9721Bugabuga.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Also as a possible alternative, this could be compensated by giving PvE mirage a trait that provides bleeding instead of confusion; or modify one of the other traits -- Mirrored Axe could be renamed into Gritty Confusion: In addition to an extra seeking axe, each stack of applied confusion causes enemy to bleed for the same duration (given that it's axe build that got demolished by this change).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2018

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @BrokenGlass.9356 said:

    @zealex.9410 said:
    The change is good. The previous way confusion worked made the condition overpowered and was complitely ignoring its flavour.

    I totally agree that the pervious version ignored the flavor. I did like the condi at launch... But it was amazingly underpowered.

    Are you bothered by the ticking damage being unaffected by the condition damage stat?

    Confusion was just busted before this change now ot has counter play. Its up to the mesmer now to time thier skills to make sure the player will use somethig and get punished for it.

    You're talking about PvP. I was talking about PvE where nothing you speak off apply. This change is probably one of the best proofs that splits between those gamemodes are absolutely necessary, because a fix meant for PvP has completely butchered this condition for PvE.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • The change should've been for WvW & PvP only, keeping Confusion in PvE as it was - as many others have said.

    But there is one confusing change that has not been adressed here, related to the Confusion condition:
    Confusion on Merciless Hammer Trait (Warrior) got buffed. Why? Which part of the Hammer weapon for warrior strikes anyone as a condi weapon? How is the Confusion condition on Merciless Hammer ever gonna matter? How does that even make sense in any way? I mean I get it, when you get interrupted that's kind of confusing but then why does Mesmer get Vulnerability through interupts in his traits while Warrior creates Confusion? (Please don't switch it around, I like my Vulnerability on Interrupt for Mesmer) Please just switch Confusion on Merciless Hammer for Cripple, Slow, Vulnerability, Daze, Bonus Damage on interrupt, or even just "gain Fury on interrupt" or ANYTHING that makes sense for a power-based-cc-weapon.

    As the old worlds fall behind
    Our spirit reaches wide
    With no fear breathing new life
    Awaken from the dark dark slumber

    Wintersun - Awaken from the dark slumber (Spring) - Part II The Awakening

  • Oglaf.1074Oglaf.1074 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, Merciless Hammer is one of the most pointless Warrior traits ever. Hammer is not a Condi weapon. Even if using a Hammer with the Strength line there’s absolutely no reason to pick it over Berserker’s Power - the raw 33% damage boost beats the kitten outta the Confusion and far too niche/situational 20% on M.Hammer.

    Really disappointed we didn’t get a rework of the trait to remove the Confusion and a rework to make it able to compete with B.Power as a viable choice.

    Please Anet give us a hide Chest Armour-option. Tattoo-clad Norns everywhere beg of you.

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing is. This change makes confusion a PvP condition again. It completely nullifies the changes Anet did in August 2017 to make that condition useful in PvE. This change back then was PvE only and with the new Confusion its like that change never existed.

    First problem of new Confusion in PvE: Mobs aren't using skills as fast and often as we players do and some mobs aren't even using a skill. Players on the other hand are using skills constantly and quite fast so that "on skill use" effect will hit mobs not that often but players much more. On some mobs this won't even activate once since they are using nothing. It wouldn't really matter that much if the second problem wouldn't be there.

    The ticking damage profits from absolutely nothing right now. Thats right. Having full Viper's and being naked makes no real difference in how much damage you do with the ticking damage and if there is a difference its more like 2 points of damage per tick. Since the first problem is there it makes investing in Condi Damage non-rewarding since this condition doesn't profit at all from that stat. Players want to be rewarded for investing in stats and they want to see a difference. Investing in Condi damage makes no real difference in how damaging that condition is in PvE, and seeing like ticks for 20 damage in full vipers feels.... well really bad

    Also Mirage: Mirage is an Elite-Spec that is dishing out quite a lot of confusion. With the August 2017 changes Confusion was finally a good condition in PvE with some niche applications like it should be from gameplay perspective. And I guess Mirage was created with the improved confusion in mind. Now the Confusion giving skills are rendered mostly useless.

    A change this big, if this was intended for PvE, should have been comunicated with us before the balance patch, like you did with Alacrity and Phantasms, so that we could see and understand why you suddenly nullified the good changes a few months ago and went a big step backwards.

    From a PvE standpoint this change now represents one of the following. A bug, an oversight or a complete lack of thought. I still hope its either a bug or an oversight.

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭

    this is an excellent welcome change i wanted since 2013

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