So its official now then.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"Genesis.5169" said:We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

Yes. Exactly that. I would much rather fight a power spec than a condition spec regardless of circumstances. There is NUMEROUS ways to counter power damage. The same cannot be said for conditions. If you don't realize that, you're either acting dumb, or don't know how to play the game. Condition mesmer is one of the hardest builds to counter play, hence why it is considered the strongest 1v1 spec.

So, since you obviously don't know, the counters to power damage are:

1. Dodge
2. Stealth
3. Block
4. Invulnerability
5. Evasion
6. Armor
7. Protection
8. Weakness
9. etc. etc.

What do we have against conditions?

1. Condition removal
2. Resistance

Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

YEP

GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

Looks like you're fighting against silver players who don't know how to dodge.

Under defense against conditions, you forgot:

1. Dodge
2. Stealth
3. Block
4. Invulnerability
5. Evasion

Dodge, stealth, block, and evasion do NOTHING against conditions that are on you. You can avoid power damage using them, but conditions, no. They will continue to damage you.

Can you dodge/stealth/block/evasion Power attacks that already hit you?

They work just as well against conditions. Those things don't just magically appear on you, you know. You have to be hit for conditions to be applied.

You get hit by a power attack that applies conditions. Dodge, stealth, block, and evasion will not prevent conditions from hurting you. They will, however, prevent a power attack.

Please, fight against a condition build only using dodge, stealth, block, and evasion as your "counterplay," and see if that works. You'll take damage from the conditions regardless of how many times you dodge, stealth, block, or evade. Condition cleanse and resistance are the ONLY counterplay mechanics to conditions.

I do all the time on my Ranger. Works pretty well. What you're saying is that you can also avoid 100% of damage from Power builds by just using those things? No, you can't. Not everything is avoidable. You will be hit. You will take damage.

What you can do is avoid the worst of it entirely. This seems to be something you don't understand applies regardless of what build you are facing. Condition and Power builds both have particular attacks that do more than others. When fighting a Necro, you dodge Feast of Corruption. Not only is that their hardest-hitting attack, but you also get to deny them life force (and condition necro is bad at generating that). That's 5 stacks of Torment I don't have to think about cleansing because they never got applied.

Yes, you can. I've ended many duels against power builds 100-0 without them having hit me once, SPECIFICALLY due to the fact that I avoided everything they tried to attack me with. In fact, there was a video of me in the FAME 1v1 tournament on Twitch in which the thief I fought did not land a single point of damage on me throughout the course of the 1v1.

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/18535470426:21 - thief

Unfortunately, I don't believe the video is up anymore. But it is still completely doable.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. You can dodge, stealth, block, and evade the POWER attacks that apply conditions. However, if you have a condition on you, NONE of those things will prevent you from taking damage. Only condition cleanse and resistance will stop the damage ticks.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Again, can you block An Eviscerate after it's hit you? Can you dodge a Maul after it's hit you? How about Invuln a backstab after the fact?

No, you can't. Same with condition builds. You have to dodge/block/stealth/invuln the attack that applies them. Then you don't need to worry about cleansing because no conditions got applied to you in the first place.

I'm sorry you're intentionally being obtuse, but that's just fact. Active defenses work just as well against condition builds as power builds.

[shadowpass.4236]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Again, can you block An Eviscerate after it's hit you? Can you dodge a Maul after it's hit you? How about Invuln a backstab after the fact?

No, you can't. Same with condition builds. You have to dodge/block/stealth/invuln the attack that applies them. Then you don't need to worry about cleansing because no conditions got applied to you in the first place.

I'm sorry you're intentionally being obtuse, but that's just fact. Active defenses work just as well against condition builds as power builds.

I'm not saying active defenses don't work as well as against conditions builds as power builds.

The point being, the ONLY way to stop a condition from hurting you is to remove it or gain resistance. You keep saying avoid the attack that applies conditions, but that attack does POWER damage. You can avoid the power damage. But if you have a condition on you, the only way to avoid the damage is with cleanse/resistance.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

So, those defenses work against conditions except they don't? No, the ONLY way to stop a condition that you didn't prevent from being applied in the first place is cleanse or Resistance. Even then, not entirely true, as multiple classes have a trait that reduces the damage taken by conditions either directly or reducing incoming duration. There are also runes that do the later (and one that reduces condition damage directly, albeit unavailable in PvP at this time).

Likewise, the only way to stop Power damage that you didn't prevent from being applied in the first place is Protection/Weakness/Toughness. Except that's not entirely true either because again, there are traits and runes that reduce direct damage taken.

[Genesis.5169]

People already complaining about power mesmers LOL.The vindication is real give it 3more weeks the forums will be brimming with it.This is what you get for the complete removal of conditions out of the meta now your going to have to deal with REAL burst.

[Keyba.9570]

@Genesis.5169 said:People already complaining about power mesmers LOL.The vindication is real give it 3more weeks the forums will be brimming with it.This is what you get for the complete removal of conditions out of the meta now your going to have to deal with REAL burst.

Condition mesmer is actually pretty strong. Maybe you're just not good at it...

[Zintrothen.1056]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

Yes. Exactly that. I would much rather fight a power spec than a condition spec regardless of circumstances. There is NUMEROUS ways to counter power damage. The same cannot be said for conditions. If you don't realize that, you're either acting dumb, or don't know how to play the game. Condition mesmer is one of the hardest builds to counter play, hence why it is considered the strongest 1v1 spec.

So, since you obviously don't know, the counters to power damage are:

1. Dodge
2. Stealth
3. Block
4. Invulnerability
5. Evasion
6. Armor
7. Protection
8. Weakness
9. etc. etc.

What do we have against conditions?

1. Condition removal
2. Resistance

Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

YEP

GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

Looks like you're fighting against silver players who don't know how to dodge.

Though I hate condition builds as much as the next person, I do want to point out that dodging and generally avoiding an attack that applies conditions is the same as dodging and generally avoiding an attack that does heavy power damage. You aren't hit by the effect, so you countered it. So if you want a more accurate list, I would add dodge, stealth, block, invulnerability and perhaps whatever else you have in mind in the etceteras. The power counter list is still a higher number, but I just wanted to make sure the list is accurate, to help your argument.

[Taltevus.3289]

@Genesis.5169 said:We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

LoL this shit isn't new....also if that's the build you choose to play NOW with mes changes you're a trash player.It's been a thing for 5 years....it's been crap for 5 years. IT's the 1 trick pony. Some blink others do not.

[Mr Godlike.6098]

Hi hi...I wouldn't be so hyped about mirage...Mesmer generally nerfs... I think next UE AT monthly will be full of nasty surprises from next meta...

[Apolo.5942]

Yes we have, Condition requires no skill what so ever to play.

Reality check, DoT builds make no sense in 10-15 seconds fights. At that point, they are just superior burst builds.

[Axl.8924]

just in case when i hit lvl 80 on my mesmer, is pòwer viable on the hot elite?

[Rukia.4802]

@Genesis.5169 said:We have decided as a community devs + players that everyone would rather fight power specs then fight a condition spec regardless of circumstances. People would rather be 1 shot by power mesmer gs2 blink decoy clone shatter with no counter play (and now we can do it twice) then fight an condition mesmer which gives you plenty of counter play time.

Yeah I mad, a ton of players have no idea what has been done, if you think confusion was annoying you have now just converted nearly ever condition mesmer to power and these are the same people who complained about burst now your gonna get all of the burst in the world with all that toughness that everyone gets now a days right? NOPE

GG guys back to 1shoting everyone who messes up a dodge for me now.

Honestly? yes. I would MUCH rather be 1shot by power than condi, and it is counterable unless dude pops every CD to stay stealthed for like 2000 meters. Anyone with a brain knows when to expect a stealth gank after playing for eons.

[ChenChilla.4652]

It will get fixed

[Apolo.5942]

Yes we have, DOTs got distorted out of proportion when anet bent the knee to self entitled "pros", none of which play the game any more, that complained when 2 bunker builds could not kill each other. That was the beginning of the end and the power ramp.DOTs can not exists in a world with 15s fights, at that point they are just more effective power builds, Dots make sense in a world where they can not burst dps, but they can make bunker builds and win through attrition. This no longer applies in GW2.

[Morwath.9817]

@plushiesoda.8150 said:

@"Morwath.9817" said:Quaggan still wonders why Elusive Mind wasn't touched by magical nerf stick.

so.. elusive mind deserves a nerf, but similar traits from daredevil and druid do not because...? mirage must have awesome health restoration on hit... right? or celestial avatar? no, i´m sure mirage has heavy armor coupled with awesome sustain so it can facetank like an spellbreaker... oh wait... I´m confused (pun intended)

not sure why so much hate for elusive mind when mantra of resolve is a thing

Ooo, there is no "similar" trait to Elusive Mind, if you look into context of how dodge roll on Mirage does work.

[zoopop.5630]

@Keyba.9570 said:

@Genesis.5169 said:People already complaining about power mesmers LOL.The vindication is real give it 3more weeks the forums will be brimming with it.This is what you get for the complete removal of conditions out of the meta now your going to have to deal with REAL burst.

Condition mesmer is actually pretty strong. Maybe you're just not good at it...

^, I dont understand why people complain so damn much and not see /understand things at all. Power Mesmer has ALWAYS been strong but is EASY to stop. They have close to zero condi cleanse.... they die faster then a thief.

Condi Mesmer is STILL freaking strong might not be OP OP as it was but it's damn near better then power mesmer at the moment imo. Staff mesmer condi spec is freaking stupid AMOUNT of fire/bleed/torment you can stack on JUST AA is beyond stupid imo and with how clones are set up to be it makes condi stack even easier then before but people just worried about Power mesmer at the moment when in reality condi is stronger and more viable then power.

[Falan.1839]

Don't understand the fuss about power mes, sure it can get you if you eat all the burst, but they're super easy to kill. As Holo I didn't have any problems so far. Tip: If you hear the torch stealth it's usually time to stealth up yourself or quickly get away and have your dodge key ready...

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

Balance in this GW2 is like president elections in Russia. Except we have Mesmer instead of Putin

Wondering why are there no "Mesmer's pocket zerg" videos around though.

[Jasonbdj.4021]

Well if the people are just running builds with zero defense stats and purely on damage stats will be easily be 1shot by others who will also be using purely damage stats no defense.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@"Genesis.5169" said:

"Oh man there's nothing i can do against conditions after they have been applied"Looks at condition damage press cleanse button*WHOA i just found a new way to play the game guys.

But that's precisely the problem, isn't it? You press a button, so I press something else in response to it. How is that engaging gameplay? It's a completely reactive system: conditions get loaded up only to be washed away.

The only counter to condition cleanse is just piling on even more conditions. It's build wars. It's an arms race.

It's not fun to me. It's not fun to many people. Instead of using the wealth of unique skills the engineer is offered that might help diversify gameplay, I'm just stuck using Elixir C or Purge Gyro when faced with condi spam. I just press buttons. Boring.

[Genesis.5169]

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@Dahkeus.8243 said:These forums when condi is meta:

“CONDI CANCER IS EVERYWHERE! IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP UP WITH CLEANSES!”

These forums when power is meta:

“BURST IS TOO STRONG! I GET BLOWN UP BEFORE I CAN DO ANYTHING!”

The reality:

If you could always keep pace with cleanses or prevent burst, then fights would be slow near-stalemates. And if a good balance is ever struck between condi and power, it will never be aknowledged here.

I suspect we're actually getting close to a balance between the two. The trouble is that not every profession has a condi/power build worth a kitten.

When you mean by every.You mean two right?That got nerfed to the ground so that makes 1 and necro is being played not because its condition damage but because its area denial.

@Phineas Poe.3018 said:

@"Genesis.5169" said:

"Oh man there's nothing i can do against conditions after they have been applied"Looks at condition damage press cleanse button*WHOA i just found a new way to play the game guys.

But that's precisely the problem, isn't it? You press a button, so I press something else in response to it. How is that engaging gameplay? It's a completely reactive system: conditions get loaded up only to be washed away.

The only counter to condition cleanse is just piling on even more conditions. It's build wars. It's an arms race.

It's not fun to me. It's not fun to many people. Instead of using the wealth of unique skills the engineer is offered that might help diversify gameplay, I'm just stuck using Elixir C or Purge Gyro when faced with condi spam. I just press buttons.

Boring.

You just explained how pvp works ingeneral, i see you against pressing buttons now.These are the arguments that lead to conditions downfall.

Keep this in mind anet as you move further.

Two the other 2 posters we never were ever in a condition meta. We had two condition classes out of 9. I don't know you all keep saying we were in a condition meta WHEN THE MAJORITY OF CLASSES IN PVP WERE POWER.

My god.

[Phineas Poe.3018]

@Genesis.5169 said:You just explained how pvp works in general

Not really.

Power damage works very differently from condition damage skills in the sense that it promotes more active play: how active or preemptive a player you are, the better your outcome. It promotes using aegis and blocks before you get attacked. It promotes using stealth and gap creators to creatively avoid taking damage. And it promotes using things like blind fields, weakness, and frost aura to help mitigate damage. If you don't do these things, you are at a disadvantage.

While it's very true that some of these things can equally mitigate the attacks of condition damage, the problem is that condition damage skills don't effectively punish players for making mistakes or playing passively. As a scrapper I can stand in wells and traps all afternoon so long as my Purge Gyro is active. I can let a necromancer corrupt every boon on my bar and then immediately convert them all into boons with Elixir C. There is no punishment because all I have to do is press a button on my bar to counteract all the damage that was about to be done to me.

It's not interesting to me. If I have the necessary condition removal skills on my bar, the condition damage becomes frivolous. It's a game mechanic that's there purely to exist as a check, like an enrage timer. It's similar to standing in line at a theme park and sizing yourself up; am I tall enough to be on this ride? Or, more specifically, do I have enough condi cleanse to sustain a 1v1 versus a condi mesmer? For 2 years or so that was pretty much always the case. Mesmers would mash their condi skills, and I would mash my condi removals. There was always an ebb and flow dependent on whose cooldowns were up, but there were never really any surprises. To make matters worse: because my buildcrafting would always be tunnel-visioned based on how many condi classes were on the opposing team, I was disincentivized to try new/different things like running blast gyro, extra kits, or gadgets.

Based on your posting history and your attitude in this thread, it's pretty clear that you're a fan of condition damage and/or feel the need to defend it. I respect that you enjoy the way condition damage builds play, but you have to understand that the majority of the player base really does not. You can see that on the basis of how WvW has gone down in population over the past 2 years. You can see that on the basis of how raiders generally reacted to condition damage creeping into the meta. And you can see that on the basis of how people respond to your own comments in this thread.

Condition damage is just really not that fun to play or fight against.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Have you tried playing against condition builds the same way you do Power builds? You know, dodging, blocking, blinding? Or is it because the punishment for failing to do these things isn't immediate that you think you don't have to?

[Genesis.5169]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Have you tried playing against condition builds the same way you do Power builds? You know, dodging, blocking, blinding? Or is it because the punishment for failing to do these things isn't immediate that you think you don't have to?

Nope they haven't.We have one guy saying having to press a button say dodge because some one attacked you with a heavy skill is not actual gameplay.We had another saying blocks and blinds do not work on conditions.

By now you should realize this was never about what was Overpowered or underpowered it was about people who recently got rekt by a mesmer venting on the forums crying for nerfs about a so called burst that had plenty of time to counterplay BEFORE and AFTER application. And the community when faced with actual real burst are again crying, and they will refuse to accept that power burst is far more bursty then condition ever was because then they will have to admit they were wrong and/or bad at the game.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Then we will be right back here at the forums everyday, complaining, whining, and moaning until Mesmer is on par with revenant :o

Everyone get your pitchforks