Worst class in the game right now? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Worst class in the game right now?

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  • Dabrixmgp.4758Dabrixmgp.4758 Member ✭✭
    edited February 20, 2018
    Necromancer

    People voting Ranger and Mesmer should be checked for mental disabilities. Necros only have one meta build and thats scourge in wvw. Raids would proly rather have a naked level 55 Druid over a Necro.

  • Necromancer

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Thing is... Revs and Necros are good classes that are desired in WvW. Just like Thief/Engi/Ranger are not desirable for WvW group play. So even though in PvE as a Necro or Rev you might feel weak, there are still other modes of play where those classes often get called OP.

    Except all 3 of those are very good roamers. A bad Druid will still destroy a scourge in the open 1v1

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    I remember a discussion like this taking place before HoT came out and it was a debate between necromancer and ranger. The conclusion made by the community then was that the ranger was the absolute worst even when it had some of the strongest supporting elements in the game at the time and was out preforming necromancer at every turn aside from boon removal. Yet necromancer has been mostly ignored to rot. And here we are again. Same place as before only replace ranger with revenant.... I can't do another 4 years of being the absolute worst profession in the game.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Crossaber.8934 said:
    There are far more votes for Rev than Necro, and Rev as i recall was one of the least player MAIN class in the forum poll.

    I don't think only Rev players vote for thier class but there are far more player that do not MAIN a Rev vote for him. On the other hand, Necro was one of the most player MAIN class of all, looks like most Necro vote are actually the Necro MAIN after all. I believe the majority player are more clear on the whole picture.

    Core Necro, might need some buff on damage side.
    Reaper, need some slight buff, or just reduce the life force degen a little bit and they will be great.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve, slightly OP in pvp and wvw, it is okay for now or need some slight nerf, especially if core necro got buff on damage side, definitely need some nerf as trade off.

    You are completely wrong on the necromancer on this. Slight buffs are what we've been getting for years and even when the numbers paper have been comparable to other professions we've under preformed heavily. Slight buffs haven't cut it and they won't cut it. I'm sick of slight buffs that ultimately do nothing or are actually Nerf's disguised as buffs because arena net has no idea what a buff looks like when talking necromancer.

    No, shroud and life force need to either be scrapped and replaced or completely reworked from the ground up. The system necromancer is based on is so archaic, so poorly designed that other video gaming and card game developers would call it a parasitic mechanic and should have never left the cutting room floor. Especially with how the game has been designed around the other professions.

  • Necromancer

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

  • Revenant

    Say whatever you want necros, if you guys think that revs don't deserve to be the worst one because lack of skills (and therefore, variety), isn't a reason, you guys are blind.

    Don't you realize revs are doomed to the same painful balance cycle patch?

    They nerf shiro power, they buff it, they nerf it, buff, nerf, buff, nerf the same kitten over and over again cuz they can't change anything else, there's no other stuff to change, nor new playstyles to bring on, same goes for condi, and healer rev, period.

  • Crossaber.8934Crossaber.8934 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2018
    Revenant

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Cross

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

  • Crossaber.8934Crossaber.8934 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2018
    Revenant

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    Cross

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function.

    One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending.
    I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example.
    I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed..

    Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I't s a Toss up between Necro and Rev. I voted Rev because it was pretty much always kitten in all modes. Necro can still shine in PvP now and then.

  • Revenant

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function.

    One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending.
    I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example.
    I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed..

    Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot.

    Whatever overhaul is needed.

    Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time.

    Cross

  • Lexi.1398Lexi.1398 Member ✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    I was gonna vote rev, but then i remebered how badly balanced necro is then i changed my mind.

    Necro is GREAT in pvp/wvw, and that's precisely why I hate it - i'm tired of it being a long away ahead of literally every single other class (as opposed to still good but on par with most other classes), of only getting pinged in wvw chats by people asking for 5+ scourges to do something, of 75% of the people i see in competitive modes being scourges. Sure, it's good, but it isn't BALANCED. And then, necro builds for high level PvE just plain don't exist.

    Rev isn't good, and also isn't balanced, it needs major buffs to it's elite specs and it's core, but even if hypothetically it became the new ele (viable in every game mode to some extent since all of time, pretty much) i wouldn't be as mad as i am at necro.

  • Revenant

    As much as I want a rework on Necro I think Rev needs it more.

  • Dabrixmgp.4758Dabrixmgp.4758 Member ✭✭
    edited February 21, 2018
    Necromancer

    @Ivantreil.3092 said:
    Say whatever you want necros, if you guys think that revs don't deserve to be the worst one because lack of skills (and therefore, variety), isn't a reason, you guys are blind.

    Don't you realize revs are doomed to the same painful balance cycle patch?

    They nerf shiro power, they buff it, they nerf it, buff, nerf, buff, nerf the same kitten over and over again cuz they can't change anything else, there's no other stuff to change, nor new playstyles to bring on, same goes for condi, and healer rev, period.

    I dont see how Revs are possibly worse than Necros. Just because you dont like their playstyle doesnt make them bad. Necros only viable build is Scourge for WvW. Revs can run Herald and we now run a few Renegades as well for Alacrity in our WvW raids. Condi Renegade parses very well on large hitboxes and they have some support where Necros bring nothing to a raid.

    I dont even know how they can even fix Necro dps. Right now the WvW meta is whoever brings the most Scourges wins. If they get a 2-3k dps boost then they will be even more OP in wvw.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21, 2018
    Guardian

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    • Revenant for certain.
    • Core engi definitely needs some work, and scrapper could use more buffs, but I don't think engineer is in as bad shape as revenant.
    • Core necro seems... ok, reaper needs some buffs, scourge is fine.
    • Core ele and tempest need some buffs for PvP/WvW. Weaver is almost right, just needs some tweaking.

    Core necromancer has no support, half the damage of reaper, about a third the damage of scourge, its suitability is fine, but for the most part core necromancer is extremely bad and you should under no circumstance run it. Unless you are leveling.

    Reaper is way under tuned.

    Scourge is physically unpleasant to play after the patch.

    Necromancer over all causes massive balance problems in that one nerf sends it into the bin of uselessness. Which has been shown repeatedly in its time in the meta. This patch might prove that the pattern doesn't hold because scourge is just that much better than core necromancer, but history of the class has always been a problem in the game. As such this makes it the worst.

    Revenant needs more skills. They don't need their mechanic completely reworked and all of their skills and traits completely reworked. They just need more of them.

    I can't speak to core necro, as I don't generally see it. The few times I have recently have been MM builds. Scourge still has plenty of play all-around still, and lots of potential in all game modes. Reaper is undertuned, to be certain, but it's not too far from where it needs to be. A few slight damage buffs to underperforming skills should bring it to where it belongs.

    I also get the feeling that necro's don't seem to realize how good they've got it. They don't have to do ridiculous rotations like a condi engi to get subpar DPS. If they got the engi treatment, you can bet people might actually care.

    basilcy every one one want damage, support, tanky in core stuff, necros already have scourge.... and reaper is still gud people just want to be carried when they say they are unplayeable while reaper is actually strong .... if u know how to built it and play it...

    that is the same has cry omg core guard cant heal has much has FB.....

    Atm the classes that have more issues are guardian stuff that gets overwhelmed easilly, SW still not working, signets still completelly useless, 1min sanctuary CD after be traited, no elite nor healing skill correspnding to consecrations., shouts need to be tweaked from anything else rather than seve for boon stacking, they are basicly weak mantra but can perform on aoe.... while shout healing skill is still cone....like a mantra...

    And then we have ravenant that is basicly play condi mace or hammer while behind the zerg w/o basicly anything else rather than keep hammer spam alive...

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function.

    One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending.
    I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example.
    I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed..

    Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot.

    Whatever overhaul is needed.

    Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time.

    This is why in my suggestion I say that shroud and life force need to be overhauled. Make them more streamline so that the mechanic isn't so swingy. Because everyone knows that life force either over preforms or under preforms. And thats because of how swingy it is. Making it a regenerating energy mechanic, all be it a really slow one I feel could be a step in the right direction. Arena net wants the necromancer to be an attrition profession? Well their mechanic needs to act like an attrition mechanic that gets better the longer the fight goes. A player could come up to a necromancer, intentionally bait out their life force and drain it, flee, let their skills recharge and come back and the necromancer's defenses are gone. This is only one aspect of my suggestion though. So I might make a lengthy post about it on the necromancer forms but this change, as simple as it sounds requires dozens of traits to be changed, dozens of skills to be changed and the Death Shroud, Reaper's Shroud and Shades to be changed. And that's JUST from changing how life force accumulates! That seemingly minor change has massive implications for everything around the necromancer. And I know this. Which Is why I said the necromancer needs close to a 90% of everything changed.

  • Crossaber.8934Crossaber.8934 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2018
    Revenant

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function.

    One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending.
    I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example.
    I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed..

    Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot.

    Whatever overhaul is needed.

    Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time.

    This is why in my suggestion I say that shroud and life force need to be overhauled. Make them more streamline so that the mechanic isn't so swingy. Because everyone knows that life force either over preforms or under preforms. And thats because of how swingy it is. Making it a regenerating energy mechanic, all be it a really slow one I feel could be a step in the right direction. Arena net wants the necromancer to be an attrition profession? Well their mechanic needs to act like an attrition mechanic that gets better the longer the fight goes. A player could come up to a necromancer, intentionally bait out their life force and drain it, flee, let their skills recharge and come back and the necromancer's defenses are gone. This is only one aspect of my suggestion though. So I might make a lengthy post about it on the necromancer forms but this change, as simple as it sounds requires dozens of traits to be changed, dozens of skills to be changed and the Death Shroud, Reaper's Shroud and Shades to be changed. And that's JUST from changing how life force accumulates! That seemingly minor change has massive implications for everything around the necromancer. And I know this. Which Is why I said the necromancer needs close to a 90% of everything changed.

    Do you realise how much time it takes to redsign the class and how possibly the overhaul will endup destroying the class. Especially it is currently having good standing in 2/3 of game mode which agreed by majority players at the moment.

    This is not a place to discuss necro overhaul; it is indeed a poll to reflect most player believe Rev is in the worst state across all class and thats it. No matter what we suggested will not change the result of the poll.

    Cross

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    You need to break this poll up by game mode and by specialization for it to be useful in any capacity.

    The strongest specs in the PvP formats are the weakest ones in the PvE ones and vice versa. There is no universally-weak class, but there are massively under-performing specializations in various modes.

    Yeah maybe. Cause i think most people are just voting and not reading my description

    You simply spread your poll too wide and didn't get the answer you wanted to hear. You think people were going to ignore Scourge PVP/WvW performance when voting here? it might be of little consolation to you that necro PVE performance is trash, but that means quite a bit to people that want to maintain the status quo for WvW/PVP performance.

    I think you didnt understand or read the description of this poll either.
    I really meant what i said. Consider all gamemodes. Ill show you:

    Sure necro is still in a good spot in wvw. In pvp only if you get backup from your team. In pve its pretty bad. Viability check.

    But that was only one part of the poll.

    Gameplay, how much fun is it? Well thats not an objective question. But just spamming f-abilities (thats what you have to do in wvw or pvp in order to deal good dmg and most players are only looking for their dmg in these gamemodes. this i is no fun for me, thats just brainless.

    So if someone said that engi would need a rework, because its frustrating to play the piano like a champ in order to do good condidmg. I would understand and completely agree.

    So next point. Consider viable builds over all gamemodes so that includes pvp, pve, wvw and wvw roaming.
    Lets take the so much voted rev: it can be heal, condi and power, and is pretty good in this.
    Or lets take ranger. It can be condi,healer or power as well.
    Or guard. Condi,heal or power again.

    Necro can only be condi with like 2 trait changes if you go from pve to pvp or wvw.

    But most people were just giving reasons for one gamemode, why the class is bad.
    Or problems that other classes have as well.

    But i dont have to discuss this with someone who obviously read the discription, but didnt understand it.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    As a slight correction, necro needs support in sPvP largely because that since it's so strong, people know to focus the hell out of it or it'll easily win the game for its team. Its lack of damage immunity effects is what defines the counterplay; it otherwise shuts virtually everything else down.

    The build variability is bad, reaper is horrible since the changes, and scourge is poorly-designed, but most of what you present above is preferential rather than a measure of the class overall.

    Not to say people aren't reading the OP, but the scope of the question is just too broad to get a good/consistent answer for. For everyone that doesn't care about raid speedruns, the class as a whole is generally far from the bottom.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Drson.4730Drson.4730 Member ✭✭
    edited February 22, 2018
    Revenant

    Revenant for me sadly... he looks cool with awesome looking skill effects and the lore is interesing ...

    Love the concept, the execution is clunky and uninteresting though :(

    /personal opinion/

    My Name Is Drson And I'm an Altoholic...

  • Necromancer

    Reaper needs some tweaking in order to become competitive in both modes.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Revenant

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    You need to break this poll up by game mode and by specialization for it to be useful in any capacity.

    The strongest specs in the PvP formats are the weakest ones in the PvE ones and vice versa. There is no universally-weak class, but there are massively under-performing specializations in various modes.

    Yeah maybe. Cause i think most people are just voting and not reading my description

    You simply spread your poll too wide and didn't get the answer you wanted to hear. You think people were going to ignore Scourge PVP/WvW performance when voting here? it might be of little consolation to you that necro PVE performance is trash, but that means quite a bit to people that want to maintain the status quo for WvW/PVP performance.

    I think you didnt understand or read the description of this poll either.
    I really meant what i said. Consider all gamemodes. Ill show you:

    Sure necro is still in a good spot in wvw. In pvp only if you get backup from your team. In pve its pretty bad. Viability check.

    But that was only one part of the poll.

    Gameplay, how much fun is it? Well thats not an objective question. But just spamming f-abilities (thats what you have to do in wvw or pvp in order to deal good dmg and most players are only looking for their dmg in these gamemodes. this i is no fun for me, thats just brainless.

    So if someone said that engi would need a rework, because its frustrating to play the piano like a champ in order to do good condidmg. I would understand and completely agree.

    So next point. Consider viable builds over all gamemodes so that includes pvp, pve, wvw and wvw roaming.
    Lets take the so much voted rev: it can be heal, condi and power, and is pretty good in this.
    Or lets take ranger. It can be condi,healer or power as well.
    Or guard. Condi,heal or power again.

    Necro can only be condi with like 2 trait changes if you go from pve to pvp or wvw.

    But most people were just giving reasons for one gamemode, why the class is bad.
    Or problems that other classes have as well.

    But i dont have to discuss this with someone who obviously read the discription, but didnt understand it.

    No, I think it's simply vague and your fishing for a particular answer. I mean, it's unfair to say people's opinion about the worst class is wrong because you think they didn't understand what you said.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Mesmer

    I voted mesmer because I want to watch the world burn

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Necromancer

    @Solori.6025 said:
    I voted mesmer because I want to watch the world burn

    When I was first picking a class to play, I was heavily debating between mesmer and necro. I really like how mesmer plays with regards to functionality in all forms of pvp. I did my research and heard all the bad stuff about necro, but it had that dark, sadistic look.

    In the end, I chose necro because I got turned off by the pink/purple energy and butterflies of the male mesmer xD

  • Coolguy.8702Coolguy.8702 Member ✭✭✭
    Mesmer

    Both Revenant and necro are strong in all gamemodes, Mesmer just keeps getting worse, literally since pof all Mesmer got are nerfs to all gameplay, regret making mine big time

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function.

    One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending.
    I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example.
    I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed..

    Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot.

    Whatever overhaul is needed.

    Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time.

    This is why in my suggestion I say that shroud and life force need to be overhauled. Make them more streamline so that the mechanic isn't so swingy. Because everyone knows that life force either over preforms or under preforms. And thats because of how swingy it is. Making it a regenerating energy mechanic, all be it a really slow one I feel could be a step in the right direction. Arena net wants the necromancer to be an attrition profession? Well their mechanic needs to act like an attrition mechanic that gets better the longer the fight goes. A player could come up to a necromancer, intentionally bait out their life force and drain it, flee, let their skills recharge and come back and the necromancer's defenses are gone. This is only one aspect of my suggestion though. So I might make a lengthy post about it on the necromancer forms but this change, as simple as it sounds requires dozens of traits to be changed, dozens of skills to be changed and the Death Shroud, Reaper's Shroud and Shades to be changed. And that's JUST from changing how life force accumulates! That seemingly minor change has massive implications for everything around the necromancer. And I know this. Which Is why I said the necromancer needs close to a 90% of everything changed.

    Do you realise how much time it takes to redsign the class and how possibly the overhaul will endup destroying the class. Especially it is currently having good standing in 2/3 of game mode which agreed by majority players at the moment.

    This is not a place to discuss necro overhaul; it is indeed a poll to reflect most player believe Rev is in the worst state across all class and thats it. No matter what we suggested will not change the result of the poll.

    The necromancer needed a redesign years ago. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen. If it doesn't happen we will be having this same conversation in the next 4 years and the next 4 years after that until the game dies and the modding community gets a hold of GW2 when arena net inevitably bankrupts themselves and is absorbed into EA or something and the modded private server fixes the necromancer for them when only a few thousand people honestly care anymore. Who knows maybe by that point Anet will do right by their fans and make GW and GW2 open source... Yes part of this is a joke but necromancer redesign has been pushed by the community since year one.

  • Revenant

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Lily.1935 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Dabrixmgp.4758 said:

    @Crossaber.8934 said:.
    Scourge, still on the strong side in pve,

    What drugs are you taking? Currently the only builds with worse DPS than Necros are support Druids and Chronos. The only place Necro has in PvE is as a storage mule.

    Ah well. It can do dmg. But you need 3 other scourges for that, to make up for the dps loss.
    Dps loss from not taking a meta class. But if you can get 4-6 necros as dds. They might be doing way more dmg than other classes. Because of epidemic.
    Well... that needs some adds

    There are 3 game modes in this game, scourge is at slight overpower state in 2/3 of mode, besides lower dps in pve, game wise scourge is still strong after all.

    If dps is what your concern, the golem dps test is not accurate at all, power build especially melee class may appeared to have higher dps compare to full condition scourge, but it is a delusion because a golem will always eat every skill non stop because it never move, block, attack, deal cc to player. When condition damage at real boss are doing serious damage, power melee classes possibly deal 0 dps when they dodge, chasing, CCed.... Condition damage will always reflect a closer dps in actual fight than a power build perform, when you reduce 10% dps from a power build brench mark because of the above reason, it is actually not far ahead of a condition scourge can do. On the other hand, once condition is applied, it never got cleanse from a boss, it is relatively much easier to maintain full condition dps with shade compare to any dps power build.

    Necromancer has a parasitic mechanic. It scales wildly depending on the situation. It doesn't function well in a group other than with other condi necromancers. Its a balancing nightmare. Its an attrition profession that gets weaker over time. It has little to no support for allies in a game that relies on supporting roles. Because of the way its mechanic works its busted in one game mode and almost useless in another. These are all traits of what the worst profession looks like.

    What's bad about the revenant? It isn't a finished profession. That's it! It doesn't need its mechanic scrapped. It doesn't cause massive balancing problems. It isn't the worst or best at anything. Revenant needs to be finished by Arena net. It doesn't need a redesign. And we are talking about worst profession. Not "Which profession is the most unfinished".

    I agree that necromancer is extremely hard to balance between game mode.

    Scourge is extremely powerful at area denial with strong boon corruption, it is still way too powerful vs player even after nerf. But unfortunately, our pve enemy on the other hand, does not rely much on boon, nor boon spam; boon strip or corruption doesn't justify the true value of necromancer in RAID. But we can't deny that while 2/3 of the game mode, scourge is still very strong, thus give her less bargaining power being the worst class in most player's opinion.

    I am afraid necromancer may required an overhaul like mesmer in order to bring a better balance state to all game mode. For example, remove the baseline damage reduction from shroud, and provide trait options to choose one single trait from increase condition damage or increase power damage or reduce damage in shroud. This is similar to warrior that force a player to choose between berserker power or might make right for damage or sustain. PvP/WvW player can choose sustain shroud, while PvE player can take dps option. This may not be the best solution as it will make one core trait a must take over other core trait line.

    The Mesmer update they just got is minor in comparison to what the necromancer needs. We aren't just talking numbers and a single skill type with a few trait changes we are talking about a complete mechanic overhaul and likely 80 to 90% of all of the necromancers skills and traits changed or retooled to function.

    One change I'd make is make life force a slow regenerating resources that builds up over time. I'd still have the on death life force gain but limit the number of times the necromancer can benefit from deaths. My thought is about 3 deaths providing life force every 20 to 30 seconds. This makes it far easier to control across game modes and prevents necromancer from floundering in pvp and pve at times and forces them to spend their resources more wisely in wvw. This also opens up more attrition for the necromancer as they would he building power over time as opposed to struggling. This would also likely mean they couldn't get as much life force from skills, depending.
    I'd also remove the damage reduction as you said. I'd make skills and healing available in shroud so it's a more advanced barrier as opposed to a sort of super armor. Retool the spectral skills to have a burn out effect while in shroud. So for example, you burn up your life force quicker but the benefit you'd gain would be superior. Such as spectral walk would be an invulnerability skill while in shroud but it's cost would double shroud's decay rate while it's active. Giving you a lot of reason to have the return skill to control just how much to burn. It's just an example.
    I'd also do a complete overhaul on minions and change the entire function of core necromancer's death shroud to function more as a mixed choice between offense and defensive play. Where one choice clearly weakens the capability of the other as opposed to its awkward both and neither... I have a massive list of stuff I'd change and needs to be changed..

    Revenant.. I just want it to have 1 to 2 more weapons and about 12 more utility skills. One more for each legend and about 4 signets that can he used with any legend. This I think would put revenant in a healthy spot.

    Whatever overhaul is needed.

    Please bear in mind that mesmer was no way in any worst state before patch, yet they received a great overhaul. The focus is to make the class less frustration for other classes in pvp/wvw without destroy pve mesmer totally. Like most player voted, I don't think necro is in the worst state now compare to pre hot, but they do need some serious overhaul in order to reduce the class effectiveness in pvp/wvw and buff pve counter part. This is not an easy task and require a lot of time.

    This is why in my suggestion I say that shroud and life force need to be overhauled. Make them more streamline so that the mechanic isn't so swingy. Because everyone knows that life force either over preforms or under preforms. And thats because of how swingy it is. Making it a regenerating energy mechanic, all be it a really slow one I feel could be a step in the right direction. Arena net wants the necromancer to be an attrition profession? Well their mechanic needs to act like an attrition mechanic that gets better the longer the fight goes. A player could come up to a necromancer, intentionally bait out their life force and drain it, flee, let their skills recharge and come back and the necromancer's defenses are gone. This is only one aspect of my suggestion though. So I might make a lengthy post about it on the necromancer forms but this change, as simple as it sounds requires dozens of traits to be changed, dozens of skills to be changed and the Death Shroud, Reaper's Shroud and Shades to be changed. And that's JUST from changing how life force accumulates! That seemingly minor change has massive implications for everything around the necromancer. And I know this. Which Is why I said the necromancer needs close to a 90% of everything changed.

    Do you realise how much time it takes to redsign the class and how possibly the overhaul will endup destroying the class. Especially it is currently having good standing in 2/3 of game mode which agreed by majority players at the moment.

    This is not a place to discuss necro overhaul; it is indeed a poll to reflect most player believe Rev is in the worst state across all class and thats it. No matter what we suggested will not change the result of the poll.

    The necromancer needed a redesign years ago. Just because it's difficult doesn't mean it doesn't need to happen. If it doesn't happen we will be having this same conversation in the next 4 years and the next 4 years after that until the game dies and the modding community gets a hold of GW2 when arena net inevitably bankrupts themselves and is absorbed into EA or something and the modded private server fixes the necromancer for them when only a few thousand people honestly care anymore. Who knows maybe by that point Anet will do right by their fans and make GW and GW2 open source... Yes part of this is a joke but necromancer redesign has been pushed by the community since year one.

    Which sentence i said the overhaul is not needed? I said it is not an easy task and require a lot of time. There are a lot of things need to do for the dev, the skill split proposed today is a right direction and it is a start, i wish we can see that light for necro sooner or later. But this is not the place to discuss the changes, you are free to start another thread for that sole purpose.

    Cross

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    You need to break this poll up by game mode and by specialization for it to be useful in any capacity.

    The strongest specs in the PvP formats are the weakest ones in the PvE ones and vice versa. There is no universally-weak class, but there are massively under-performing specializations in various modes.

    Doesn't change that some classes have fundamentally better or worse designs. Revenant has a pretty kitten design, and its pretty amazing the lengths that ANet will jump through to work with that design. The thief initiative mechanic, while not as bad, could stand to be reworked as well. The concept of Necro using death shroud both offensively and as its main defensive tool has simply not kept up with the current state of the game, to the point where I think the class needs a redesign, but not on the same level that mesmer got (either turning shroud into a purely defensive tool, or chancing how it works to be an offensive tool people can play against, and then moving more defenses over to the base necro kit outside of shroud)

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    @OriOri.8724 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    You need to break this poll up by game mode and by specialization for it to be useful in any capacity.

    The strongest specs in the PvP formats are the weakest ones in the PvE ones and vice versa. There is no universally-weak class, but there are massively under-performing specializations in various modes.

    Doesn't change that some classes have fundamentally better or worse designs. Revenant has a pretty kitten design, and its pretty amazing the lengths that ANet will jump through to work with that design. The thief initiative mechanic, while not as bad, could stand to be reworked as well. The concept of Necro using death shroud both offensively and as its main defensive tool has simply not kept up with the current state of the game, to the point where I think the class needs a redesign, but not on the same level that mesmer got (either turning shroud into a purely defensive tool, or chancing how it works to be an offensive tool people can play against, and then moving more defenses over to the base necro kit outside of shroud)

    Necromancer needs a much more involved redesign than Mesmer. Because of the nature of the mechanic you can do anything smaller than 78% redesign without ruining the profession.

  • Revenant

    I honestly forgot there was a revenant class.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Necromancer

    Ok. I now played some more rev. An i admit, that it has its weaknesses. But every class has them.
    Rev is one of those, that have some more weaknesses. It sometimes feels rlly clunky.
    But i dont think the energy system is the problem.
    Its the same as it is with necromancer. If you want to do dmg, then you have to take certain traits. If you take any other, its a huge dmg loss.

    But for real. I think necro is in a much higher need of a rework right now.
    No real good defenses, no real good offenses, no mobility.
    Most useful as afk farming charakter.

    Core condi engi will need a buff as well. The rotation is maybe even more difficult than ele, and ele does a kitten of dmg, ingi doesnt.
    And why? Because ele has 3k less health?

    Thats no fair. If we let them fight against each other, ele will do one auto of fire, and engi is below 10k hp.
    Same goes for necro btw.
    Why is warrior allowed to do 35k+ dmg and necro isnt?
    Warrior is way more tanky, while playing zerker, than necro is.

    And if we look at the newest wvw/pvp splits, necro is in need of a rework even more.

    Its like it always is. Buffing some really useless things, that still wont be taken, nerfing the real good things, but not giving other options.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2018
    Revenant

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Thats no fair.

    This is the main reason people fail at having a realistic view of the game. It's not about what is fair; it never has been. Imposing 'fair' onto things to justify changes doesn't make sense in a game where fairness wasn't considered in the first place.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Alga.6498Alga.6498 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Revenant

    Unfinished profession.

    | Separatist | Nightmare Court | Inquest | White Mantle | Sunspears | Loyalists | Ascalon | Kryta | Ebonhawke | Elona | Istan | Kourna | Vabbi | Cantha | Luxon | Kurzick | 71 characters | "Rally to me, Ascalonians!" "Keep Ascalon in your heart." "May the Gods protect you." "Be blessed by the Six."

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Thief

    I voted Thief.

    Reason being all of his one and a half (daredevil) elite specs are more of the same! Core thief? DPS. Daredevil? DPS. Deadeye? DPS.
    Other professions got some role variety in at least one of their spec. Warriors can become tanks and boonrippers with spellbreaker spec, rangers have druid for healing and tanking, Revenants got two support specs (defensive and offensive), Mesmers got chrono for tanking and support etc, etc.

    Thief? Always dps..

  • Echoherb.6528Echoherb.6528 Member ✭✭✭
    Revenant

    @Eramonster.2718 said:
    I think scourge is still preferred or viable. Reaper is ok, not the best in dmg but still fun and good for certain situation and gameplays. If its core class profession, its hard to find ranger and necros. But it is possible to find necros in PvE contents once in a while, but never a ranger based on my exp. You will find druids and maybe some soulbeast, just like scourge and reaper.

    Altho I'm not sure why engi is not used in less challenging content, it is versatile and very much viable.

    What? I see a ton of rangers, one of the most common classes I see in PVE. Core engi is indeed rare though

  • Saiyan.1704Saiyan.1704 Member ✭✭✭
    Revenant

    Ever ask yourself, "I would rather have X class instead of him."? I do.. everytime I see a Rev on my team.

    As of March 11, 2017 everyone should be voting for Revenant as the underdog. I understand everyone's concerns for the class they main. Thinking, "will I get nerfed yet again?" But hey, at least you're still a highly viable (arguably OP) class.

    What's funny here is seeing OP classes on that list get voted as "worse". Get real XD

  • GWMO.4785GWMO.4785 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2018

    Thief, easily

    @GWMO.4785 said:
    The fact is that Thief just does not excel at anything. In pve there are other classes that can output more damage in the first place. Thief can be useful for skipping parts or when there are adds involved duo to blind. But again there are other classes that can do that just as good if not better.

    In PvP, decapping a capture point and outnumbering opponent is basically the role for thief here. Which can be done by other classes just as fine. Not to mention they can sustain more too.

    For WvW, in Zergs thieves usually gets kicked off squad when its (nearly) full to make room for prime classes like guard or necro. So you have to relly on your own. Best you can do is pick people off left and right. Or play a gimmick stealth medic build. Either way not that effective now- days. Suppose its nice for small group or solo roaming. But i mean.. each class has its ups and downs here.

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭
    Revenant

    @Saiyan.1704 said:
    Ever ask yourself, "I would rather have X class instead of him."? I do.. everytime I see a Rev on my team.

    As of March 11, 2017 everyone should be voting for Revenant as the underdog. I understand everyone's concerns for the class they main. Thinking, "will I get nerfed yet again?" But hey, at least you're still a highly viable (arguably OP) class.

    What's funny here is seeing OP classes on that list get voted as "worse". Get real XD

    Yes

  • Revenant

    Obviously rev. It's clunky and mildly upsetting to play in all game modes.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

  • Warlyx.6732Warlyx.6732 Member ✭✭
    Revenant

    all the proffesions have issues , but to be fair Rev has the most , and is the core design what fails , Rev was "saved" by HoT elite that make it "playable"...

    in the end it was rushed and unfinished and after years? it still in "beta"

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