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How would you redesign the revenant?


Lonami.2987

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@Klowdy.3126 said:I would start by giving them herald and renegade from day one. Step two would be giving two eelite specs that change how the class plays (like every other class), and not just complete the half finished mess.

The way the legends function is fine - each one basically has a different play style, but need to be more defined. The real issue is lack of skills or meaningful traits. each legend should have a condi clear, and the healing shouldn't be weak as shit. I hate getting hit with huge damage and the only way to really heal is heal with one legend and then swap to the other legend quickly, just get a decent heal. unless that heal is shiro, where the heal is worthless and mitigatable with all the blocks/invulns/blinks/stealths/dodges available to some classes. When you hit the button is should just heal you and steal health from your target (unblockable/non-mitigatable), but if you have no target it just heals whatever the full amount is.

This is just a Christmas wish, but having a trait in renegade - like the one that gives protection to allies, but instead removes stealth at a 360 distance around the avatars and another one that knocks down foes in the area. These would make up 3 flavorful traits.

The new elites specs should either add something really different or super charge the functionality of one of the existing play style. I don't think we are to a point where super charging a play style should happen yet.

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I would give them about 15 new skills not associated with a legend that could be swapped around in their utility bar. Then, I'd change it so that instead of swapping between two legends, you swap into and out of one legend (the legends would retain their current fixed 5 skills).

Each legend would have a specialized role, while non-legend mode would be designed to be customizable, versatile, and able to synergize well with any of the legends. Legends would use energy while non-legend skills would not. Energy would refill in a similar way to how it does now. Much like with Ele, it would be viable to stay in a legend full time, or to never invoke a legend, but it would be a bit more optimal to go in and out of legend based on ability and energy needs.

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I don't think rev needs to be completley reworked, it's close to being good and unique, just needs a few changes. For one, give each legend an additional utility to choose from. This way you could make every stance relevant for pve and pvp. Like assassin stance is great in pvp, but every single skill is useless in pve where someone else is already giving you quickness and you really dont need use energy to dodge or gap close. Give it another utility that increases its dps that people can take in pve. In pvp it would be a choice of taking more damage vs more mobility.

Also it's really just weird how weapon skills have both an energy cost and a cd. Rework it so that one of these things is removed; preferably the energy cost.

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honestly, its too late for a complete rework but that is what is required to make revenant as smooth as other classes. For right now we can only hope for changes to make more builds effective and competitive. But yeah, just the weapons on their own don't mesh together. They are all trying to do something different with out actually doing a lot of what they need to do. I would say the mace/axe combo is the only weapon set that is complete and smooth. The swords are clunky and have too many useless situational skills. Sword 2 is good in 1v1, but splitting the projectiles and not giving them splash damage makes this skill sorta a waste. Sword 3 is a cool looking skill that doesn't do much, its best used to just postpone death a couple of seconds. The offhand sword skills in there new iteration help a bit and give sword a more assassin like feel, but rev still has trouble sticking around in battle or outright ganking someone quick enough. The staff is cool because of the cc, but its traits are attached to the healing spec which isn't useful unless you're going straight up healing. Staff is just a utility/defence weapon and I suppose it is an alright weapon, but doesn't mesh with the revenant unless your healing or bunkering. The hammer is a cool gimmick, but it has no use in actual combat where you are being attacked. The shield is nice I guess, but the immobile heal is ridiculous and is more of a death postpone. The shortbow just does abysmal damage and sorta functions like a longbow without the added range. I almost do more damage with mace/axe at range, and the mace/axe has more utility and survivability.

My suggestions are vague but I would say regroup and think of what you want the rev to be. A heavy armored assassin like originally, a beefy bruiser with consistent damage, or something else like having a focus on lifesteal. Something with a defined purpose, like every other effin class. Jack of all trades don't work in a role based game. So basically either drop damage and boost defense, or do the opposite. Also, I don't think energy should be used to cast skills. It should be a different and more so add bonus that differ whether it is above or below the 50%. Energy would be manipulated by weapon skills which could increase energy and utility skills could lower energy. Get rid of natural energy regen, besides energy reset when out of combat. Maybe do low cooldowns on all skills, with a possible ammo system for skills. That way you have enough skills to manipulate energy, enough skills for spikes, but since energy is out for skills you would need some sort of limit for the amount of skills you can use. but no universal resource for it. It's no fun on revenant because it doesn't operate like a thief.

Overall, get rid of resources but still use energy for skill enhancement. I would say make the rev a lifesteal bruiser. Give them more condi cleanse, or condi transfer or something. I like the legends, but make them more similar so they can actually work together. You can't keep all survival skills on one legend. That forces people to take certain legends that take up half the build. It's dumb. Perhaps give the rev only one utility bar where you can set every skill. You still get legends for special effects that you switch between and the trait lines still enhance those legends skills, but don't keep such rigidness in this class. It's no fun. Maybe even make utility skills have an enhanced effect if you're in the correlating legend. you probably can't put all these in the revenant but I think some of these could help out the quality of life.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@ScottBroChill.3254 said:Jack of all trades don't work in a role based game.

I would disagree with this. Several classes do the jack of all trades very well. The problem is. Revenant isn't one of those classes. It COULD work in a jack of all trades but it would need work on ALL the legends.

I would say they mostly need tweaks. Ventari and Kalla however. They need a redesign. Ventari needs the whole tablet system removed. It just doesnt work. The healing and all the effects need to be around the Revenant. Kalla should be turned into a Trap/Well/Mark like system, they would all obviously need to be buffed to counter the fact they wouldnt last 10seconds anymore. Though to be fair, most of the skills are kinda crappy and wouldnt be missed much if they were totally redesigned anyway.

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Ok... I never played with Revenant but it seems from reading the posts that there are some clear ideas that would make people appreciate this class a lot more.1) Allow for players to activate/deactivate legendary stances and legend swap, F1 and F2 respectively. There fore, when a legend is not active, players have access to utility skills they can pick from.2) Allow only the legendary stances to rely on Energy., not the weapon skills3) Each profession has about 27 slotted skills prior the elite specs, where as Rev has 20. Also, ever other elite spec adds six new slotted skills, while Rev adds 5. These 7 missing skills, plus the racial skills and elite specs skill should be a slotted skill when a legend is not active.4) The Elite Prof. Mechanics could be F3 for Herald and F3, F4, & F5 for Renegade.5) The legendary stances would become deactivated when not in combat, but players still commune with one of the two legends and swap legends even when deactivated.6) Non-Legendary skills will not use energy, will not have any upkeep skills, may be inspired by a legend, but tends to be more of a generic power from the mist.7) Activating/Deactivating and Swapping Legends while active shares the same cool down, though there is no cool down for legend swapping when legends are deactivated.8) Deactivated Slotted skills will consist of 1 Healing, 1 Elite, and 5 Utility skills to start, adding a new utility skill for each elite spec.

I think this, aside from balancing issues, is all people are asking for and it seem to be still fitting with the concept of the profession.

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@"ArmageddonAsh.6430" said:I would disagree with this. Several classes do the jack of all trades very well. The problem is. Revenant isn't one of those classes. It COULD work in a jack of all trades but it would need work on ALL the legends.

Not only that, the game needs some underlying changes to make this work. But I agree, it could work.

One big problem though is that unlike many other MMORPGs, the gear-stats we get aren't locked based on our profession. A jack-of-all-trades would ideally get something like Celestial and be balanced around that. Can't have this in GW2, if we were balanced to work in all Legends based on Celestial, we'd be massively OP if we say, take Viper and run around only as a DPS setup.

On the other hand, this means if we're balanced based on gear picked for a specific role, we're rubbish at all other roles.

I could see this work if each legend has incredibly powerful passive effects and stat-bonuses attached just to being in the legend, and in turn our base power is correspondingly weaker. Granted, in effect that's just a very indirect way of making our gear matter quite a lot less to our final balance, but hey, it'd work. Posted about this before, too. But I can't see ANet make it happen, I feel for as much as the revenant is clearly intended as a jack-of-all-trades char, they're "scared" of implementing it like that, too.

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  • 1 month later...

@Lonami.2987 said:

@otto.5684 said:Remove legend swap and energy. Select utilities like every other class.

Yeah, I think these two are the biggest problems with revenant. I understand that some people love them, but I'm confident they're hurting the profession design. It's the same with the elementalist and the engineer, they have more options than the rest, and that leads to those options being worse for balance's sake.

Are you guys serious right now? This is one of the most unique mechanics of the Revenant. I agree with other suggestions on this post, though. Give us more utility options per legend. And I would love if the weapon skills changed with the legend as well, a little like the Elementalist. So a Ventari Staff would be different from a Dwarf Staff. I don't think they would ever go in that direction but... it was my wish.

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Come to think of it, would it be so bad if as a class special element, Revenants would not have gear stats? We could equip whatever, the stats are ignored (only runes matter). Stats would be entirely attached to Legends, and we'd be balanced for that amount of stats, so basically we have Zerker in Shiro, Viper in Mallyx, etc?

Plus, it'd be a unique perk: You don't need to get pricey gear, you always have the correct one anyhow.

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@Carighan.6758 said:Come to think of it, would it be so bad if as a class special element, Revenants would not have gear stats? We could equip whatever, the stats are ignored (only runes matter). Stats would be entirely attached to Legends, and we'd be balanced for that amount of stats, so basically we have Zerker in Shiro, Viper in Mallyx, etc?

Plus, it'd be a unique perk: You don't need to get pricey gear, you always have the correct one anyhow.

I think this would be really unbalanced. Imagine running full zerks gear with shiro, and you swap when are low on health, because you are running a healing/toughness/vitality set with venturi which heals to full up while shiro is on cooldown. then swap back and start zerking again.

However this leads into an idea I expressed before. Remove runes from armor and have it as its own thing off to the side - this would also allow for swappable runes sets. Next make minor & major runes more valuable by removing the minor and major portion from the major and superior runes. So each rune grade only has 2 stats. then you only need 3 slots to equip runes - a minor, major and superior slot.I know that there is a stat increase from the minor group of the minor rune to the minor group of the superior rune. The big question then - is that % difference really important? This might even be something that could translate into PvP - maybe.

So back to @Carighan.6758 thought. If all other professions have a swappable rune set out of combat, maybe with the Revenant - the runes could be linked to the legend. You wouldn't get a crazy overpowered build (not that I can see, but I am bias - its my idea) by just adjusting a few stats from runes, but it would allow for some push and pull with you stats, but not a complete change.

Side note 01: Please make this change. This would allow for Glint and Kalla to be used underwater. Glint should use the ammo system with glyphs and Kalla gets the mobile upkeep skills like glint has now, but with the renegade utilities.Side note 02: yes having 1 equipped weapon that changes with the legend would be really awesome in theory. implementing would be more difficult. But imagine hammer and staff being a ranged weapon with one legend and melee weapon with another. We would definitely need more utilities for each legend if this happenedSide note 03: Make the Revenant spear as is, a land based weapon for base Rev.

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These are some awesome ideas that will never get implemented, unfortunately. :( I have my own reservations against this same-old, same-old gear stats thing that is present in absolutely ALL RPGs. I understand that making something different just for the sake of being different can lead to very bad results. I've seen this on my own job, actually. But at the same time I can't believe no-one has ever came up with anything better than these stats attached to armor and gear. +12 Health, +10 Damage, +10 Whatever.

My honest (really, not rhetoric) question to you guys is: is it really fun to kill a bunch of enemies just to get mats for crafting a piece of armor?

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The dirty little secret of guild wars 2 balance is that Revenant is already fairly well balanced and designed, while everything else is broken. Rather than a redesign it would be better to just tone down the unfair aspects that other class specs have going for them right now. Engies double stacked 4s stab on 6s CD. Scourges infinite condi application. Mesmers ludicrous survivability/damage balance in general. SB burst. Thief double steal. These are all things that are bad for the game.

  1. Buff cleansing channel
  2. Give Renegade some sustain - like lifesteal inherent to Kallas fervor, or just something. Renegade should at the very least match devastation in this regard.
  3. Nerf the broken crap on other classes

Boom, done. Revenant viable with only two small changes to the class itself. Revenant isn't the problem with the current meta, the issue is too many specs have imba crap that carries them through their mistakes far too much. Revenant doesn't suffer because it is bad, Revenant suffers because it is fair.

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@Master Ketsu.4569 said:The dirty little secret of guild wars 2 balance is that Revenant is already fairly well balanced and designed, while everything else is broken. Rather than a redesign it would be better to just tone down the unfair aspects that other class specs have going for them right now.

Hrm... considering this... you might be right. Post-HoT player power exploded, so that nowadays even open world zones need to throw multiple veterans at us to even make us care enough to use any skills.

An overall nerf to player power might be better than a buff to specific other elements.

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I am far from an experienced revenant player, but the things that keeps me away from playing it, is the lack of build diversity.

I tend to play around with builds myself, make new things, it's a very large part of this game. Revenant lacks this extremely due to very limited choice in skills. Once I choose a legend, I'm bound to certain skills.

So in order to make revenant more viable add more skills. I understand from a design point, that this isn't the revenant 'feel'. But it's possible to tie skills together. Example: Pain Absorption = Riposting Shadows = Inspiring Reinforcement = ....New skill = New Skill = New skill = ....

If you get my point...

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Redesign and rework one thing and one thing only. Centaur Stance/Ventari's tablet, DO NOT make it a thing that exists in the world, remove that complete, mainstream it like every other skill where it applies itself onto the player whereever the player is.

It's just too difficult to use otherwise.

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@GoZero.9708 said:

@Vulf.3098 said:I would be down to play a heavily armored cheerleader if we could compete with Druid and Chrono.

This. Even our support specs are nothing compared to them.

The shield root needs to go..... when they root 1 skill but make 1 class..... scourge a mobile wall of condis and barrier....

The dwarf stance needs more damage and condi damge reducing.

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So, looking at the scope of the Mesmer changes, a partial rework seems much more likely than a complete overhaul. Not only that, but it would also be preferable, I think. Personally, I really like the sound of removing the energy cost from weapon skills and adding a fourth utility skill per legend. That approach could be careful and thoughtful enough to constitute a change that's impactful, but not over the top. Two things:

Most of you are ignoring underwater combat. Understandable, but this should still be considered when talking about improving a (and especially this) profession.

What about weapon swap? If Rev's mechanics start functioning in an overall satisfying way, should it stay?

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General:

Add 3 glyphs and 3 signets.Glyphs have effects depending on legend.Signets dont cost energy.All utilities (so they dont mess up ventari)

Dwarf:My changes would concentrate to make jalis pure PbAoE face tank against multiple targets.

Forced Engagement:Make it AoE 5 targets. Block number of next attacks depending on number of targets hit. (maybe need tweaking for competitive modes)

Inspiring Reinforcement:Make it PbAoE and circular. Its bound to the rev and also cascades out.

Centaur:Simple changes to improve play flow.Remove completely the summon skills.Remove the tablet destruction from the elite.Add stunbreak to purifying essence.

Demon:Make it the Condition "In your Face" legend similar to my idea of Jalis.Empowering mysery:Consumes conditions on you.

Banish Enchantment:Change it to AoE. Instead of applying confusion it transfers conditions from you to your targets.

Shiro and Glint seem fine to me.Kalla i dont know. I dont play renegade.

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I would put a huge disclaimer on the character creation screen that warns new players about the extra effort/execution/resource management rev'ing takes to filter out all the players who just want "Dragonhunter/Warrior, but with an edgier theme!!!!11.1!"

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Weaver-like mixing of Legends? I mean, we do get twice the number of utilities thanks to Legend swaps, but it's annoying when you need just one skill from a particular Legend and end up using the whole line. Of course, I don't expect it to happen, and honestly, we don't need multiple-personality disorder added to our list of woes, but I think it's high time we had an overhaul. I love my Rev but it's very frustrating to know how much more we have to do to get the same effect as another profession. Feels unfair. If Mesmer is supposed to be Anet's baby, I sometimes feel like Rev's the stepchild.

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