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Elitism - Mass Discussion Thread


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@Haleydawn.3764 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Wait.. but there are... different metas... for different game modes/situations in Guild Wars 2...

Great deduction there, but we are specifically talking about Raids and the impact it has on the Fractal meta, which is Chrono, Druid, Warrior and two DPS. you want to take 5 Necros on your runs, you go for it! I'd much rather not.

No, we were specifically discussing 5 scourges in fractals concerning mobs, duo bosses and boss with adds like molten boss or ice elemental, ect. ect.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Wait.. but there are... different metas... for different game modes/situations in Guild Wars 2...

Great deduction there, but we are specifically talking about Raids and the impact it has on the Fractal meta, which is Chrono, Druid, Warrior and two DPS. you want to take 5 Necros on your runs, you go for it! I'd much rather not.

No, we were specifically discussing 5 scourges in fractals concerning mobs, duo bosses and boss with adds like molten boss or ice elemental, ect. ect.

Gimme some numbers. What dps do you get for killing the Berserker? After that Epi loses a lot of its steam, as you can't bounce it reliably any more, so it will only get worse.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Wait.. but there are... different metas... for different game modes/situations in Guild Wars 2...

Great deduction there, but we are specifically talking about Raids and the impact it has on the Fractal meta, which is Chrono, Druid, Warrior and two DPS. you want to take 5 Necros on your runs, you go for it! I'd much rather not.

No, we were specifically discussing 5 scourges in fractals concerning mobs, duo bosses and boss with adds like molten boss or ice elemental, ect. ect.

Yet they can't really compete with Night Sigilis, Slaying Potions, Slaying Sigils and Impact Sigils. Power Classes get so many modifiers condi classes simply can't use.You also have to account for Phases where your conditions won't do anything and you have to stack them up again. The only fractal where I can see condi as a better option than power is Underground Facility.

Now most pugs won't play with the above mentioned sigils and depending on how good the group is condi may or may not be the better option. That's the thing. You have to adapt. If you are in a really bad pug group you either leave or swap to Necro and trivialize every piece of content anet could throw at you.

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@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

You also have to account for Phases where your conditions won't do anything and you have to stack them up again. The only fractal where I can see condi as a better option than power is Underground Facility.

I doubt that. I killed the dredge suit in T4 with one bucket before thanks to two amazing weavers. Maybe the ice elemental is another story but power classes make use of the full 30 seconds the debuff provides while condi classes still have to ramp up.

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@Grogba.6204 said:

You also have to account for Phases where your conditions won't do anything and you have to stack them up again. The only fractal where I can see condi as a better option than power is Underground Facility.

I doubt that. I killed the dredge suit in T4 with one bucket before thanks to two amazing weavers. Maybe the ice elemental is another story but power classes make use of the full 30 seconds the debuff provides while condi classes still have to ramp up.

Yeah, its just the only Fractal where i could imagine it. I remember qT did a Speedclear video of it where they did use condi classes. I just dont know how long ago this was or if it even is the record.

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I've seen d/f burn Tempest pull pretty respectable numbers back before PoF when it used to be a thing. The build had a good burst, but ANet increased the ramp-ups across the board after that, so I doubt there's a condi build which can compete with a well-played weaver there right now.

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@Feanor.2358 said:I've seen d/f burn Tempest pull pretty respectable numbers back before PoF when it used to be a thing. The build had a good burst, but ANet increased the ramp-ups across the board after that, so I doubt there's a condi build which can compete with a well-played weaver there right now.

I had a pretty good weaver in 99cm some days ago, and there isn't really anything that comes close to being competitive in damage output. My buddies say that my dps meter must have been wrong but I'm pretty sure he got up to 60k at Ensolyss at peaks. He did a lot of damage at the other bosses too. I have a pretty good feeling of how fast those health bars go down, and I've never seen the bosses phasing so quickly. My Basilisk Venom is a good indicator, because if you do too much damage, it's not off cooldown for the next phase.

My explanation for the damage is:

  1. Fractal offensive potion. It adds 15% to your damage.
  2. Scarlet's Army potion. Instead of getting maybe +4% more damage from Tin of Fruitcake, you get +10% flat damage.
  3. Superior Sigil of Serpent Slaying instead of Air Sigil, gives +10% flat damage against most bosses in Nightmare. Air Sigil only accounts for 4% of my damage with DD, if I used a staff with the Serpent Slaying Sigil, I would get 5.6% more damage in comparison.

Those 3 factors account for about 25% more potential dps in this fractal compared to a golem benchmark. Let's say a player gets 46k with weaver at the golem, +25% means 57.5k dps. There is no other class that can kill things faster in boss fractals than a good weaver, and certainly not condition builds.

Unfortunately, or better, fortunately for the other dps classes, most weaver players are mediocre and cannot do that kind of damage. I would not mind being in a group with 2 weavers that do as much damage as 4 other dps classes combined though. They might have to slow down though for the cc cooldowns.

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Don't forget the +50% damage modifier for a broken defiance bar. The burst potential is huge, especially if you run Weave Self instead of FGS.And you're right - I don't mind any dps build in my group, provided he does decent damage (read: not in the same ballpark as the supports). I'm fully aware how much damage output a poorly played Weaver loses, though to be fair in t4+cm groups it's quite rare to see an outright bad weaver. In pure t4 and below though...

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People who live in the meta are pretty funny. Druid heals is trash compared to what firebrand can offer. In fact a firebrand can do all four tanking healing supporting and give quickness without a problem I don't see why taking a bear bow and a chrono are still a thing.

I even downed value guardian twice doing things like this.

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@Aridon.8362 said:People who live in the meta are pretty funny. Druid heals is trash compared to what firebrand can offer. In fact a firebrand can do all four tanking healing supporting and give quickness without a problem I don't see why taking a bear bow and a chrono are still a thing.

I even downed value guardian twice doing things like this.

Because druid's healing is enough and it comes bundled with offensive buffs which Firebrand doesn't have. Same reason why druid over ventari or a heal tempest. And in regards to chrono, it is leaps and bounds ahead of everything right now. It can tank better while providing almost every boon imaginable with high uptime and heal on top of that.

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@Aridon.8362 said:People who live in the meta are pretty funny. Druid heals is trash compared to what firebrand can offer. In fact a firebrand can do all four tanking healing supporting and give quickness without a problem I don't see why taking a bear bow and a chrono are still a thing.

I even downed value guardian twice doing things like this.

I belive he can. And i belive there is more he can do. Problem with this is there are only 2 sources of alacrity and that is chrono and renegade. Renegade needs to be healer to provide alacrity and then its overkill healing and lower overall dps. The other option is chrono. After this patch is not unrealistic to take maybe dps chrono that provide alacrity? Still if you could do perma alacrity i dont know if overall dps would be lower or not. Another thing is the fact that chrono can provide huge package of quickness and then can do some mechanic (like ball at observatory or split phase at second boss in nightmare CM)

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  • 1 month later...

Incoming new fractal meta at the highest level of elitism:

  • Ultra Grieving Burn Guard that bursts 30+ stacks of burn on mobs
  • Scourge with epidemic that makes 60 - 80 burn stacks on surrounding mobs "not even counting other condis"
  • Raid Heal Druid
  • Raid Chrono
  • Raid Weaver

This team is stronk in fractals. Mainly due to the increasing amount of mobs they are implementing in newer fractals and fractal revisions. Make sure to put on your seat belt before running this extravagant team composition.

No other classes/builds needed.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Incoming new fractal meta at the highest level of elitism:

  • Ultra Grieving Burn Guard that bursts 30+ stacks of burn on mobs
  • Scourge with epidemic that makes 60 - 80 burn stacks on surrounding mobs "not even counting other condis"
  • Raid Heal Druid
  • Raid Chrono
  • Raid Weaver

This team is stronk in fractals. Mainly due to the increasing amount of mobs they are implementing in newer fractals and fractal revisions. Make sure to put on your seat belt before running this extravagant team composition.

No other classes/builds needed.

Epi only copys 25 of a condi tho.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Incoming new fractal meta at the highest level of elitism:

  • Ultra Grieving Burn Guard that bursts 30+ stacks of burn on mobs
  • Scourge with epidemic that makes 60 - 80 burn stacks on surrounding mobs "not even counting other condis"
  • Raid Heal Druid
  • Raid Chrono
  • Raid Weaver

This team is stronk in fractals. Mainly due to the increasing amount of mobs they are implementing in newer fractals and fractal revisions. Make sure to put on your seat belt before running this extravagant team composition.

No other classes/builds needed.

Man, you don't understand fractal meta, do you?Number of mobs is irrelevant. There's mesmer focus 4 for that. Fast cc + tempest defense is what you need, not slow ramp-up damage.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Incoming new fractal meta at the highest level of elitism:

  • Ultra Grieving Burn Guard that bursts 30+ stacks of burn on mobs
  • Scourge with epidemic that makes 60 - 80 burn stacks on surrounding mobs "not even counting other condis"
  • Raid Heal Druid
  • Raid Chrono
  • Raid Weaver

This team is stronk in fractals. Mainly due to the increasing amount of mobs they are implementing in newer fractals and fractal revisions. Make sure to put on your seat belt before running this extravagant team composition.

No other classes/builds needed.

Sorry but a well played Weaver (supported by its team) is godmode for fractals, and with how Weaver balance is being handled, I don't see how this can change.As other people already mentioned, they have so many modifiers, that they can kill/phase bosses even before your condi comp reaches its damage peak.And ads just die due to massive cleave damage.

^This is optimal as soon as people know the fractal and its phases - when there is a new release and people do not know the encounter, other comps might pull ahead, since other comps are not punished as hard for making errors.

This "optimal comp" will only change if they release fractals that are such aoe/cc fiestas that there is no way to pull off weaver rotations (or absolutely require condition damage).And since the skill requirement for GW2 content is rather low and they don't primarily cater towards hardcore players, I don't see this happen.

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Let's put it this way. I have no issue with it because Fractals enjoy high LFG uptime and a large enough population that it doesn't matter, there are plenty of non-elitists and nicer people to play with and still get content done in a reasonable time. I do have an issue with said elitism in raids, but it is merely because raids enjoy low LFG uptime and has an overall low amount of players to raid with, leaving most forced to play the meta way or go the highway. If raids had a large population this would also probably be irrelevant.

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@Aridon.8362 said:People who live in the meta are pretty funny. Druid heals is trash compared to what firebrand can offer. In fact a firebrand can do all four tanking healing supporting and give quickness without a problem I don't see why taking a bear bow and a chrono are still a thing.

I even downed value guardian twice doing things like this.

Good groups play without a full healer anyways. You gain up to 20k+ dps by taking a power druid instead of a healing druid. Firebrand has trash cc and no alacrity aswell.

Chrono has also portal and blinks. Fractals like uncat or TO are way slower without portal skips.

@Faaris.8013 said:I had a pretty good weaver in 99cm some days ago, and there isn't really anything that comes close to being competitive in damage output. My buddies say that my dps meter must have been wrong but I'm pretty sure he got up to 60k at Ensolyss at peaks. He did a lot of damage at the other bosses too. I have a pretty good feeling of how fast those health bars go down, and I've never seen the bosses phasing so quickly. My Basilisk Venom is a good indicator, because if you do too much damage, it's not off cooldown for the next phase.

Weaver is just super broken in fractals. 60k burst dps is not even high. Weaver peak burst dps for ensy is 90k+. Most people have just never played with a real meta party.Most strategies just straight up don't work with condi classes or low dps.

Epi bounce for example doesn't really work on molten duo. Once one add is dead the other is healed to full health. You will have low dps until adds spawn. So its questionable if a normal group with weavers wouldn't be faster. They could be slightly slower on the first add but will be much faster on the 2nd.Same for most bosses. Fights are simply too short for condis too shine.The TO boss fight is the worst for condis. After tickling Amala for a few seconds she goes invulnerable removing all conditions. And if you do the fractal properly you don't even kill trash except for the few forced sandbinders so epi becomes even more useless.Necromancer is just in a really sad state in pve since forever. Epidemic is the only skill giving it slots in raids. I don't even know why power reaper has low dps with nerfed shroud or who thought that a cd reset on low hp enemies would create the most boring gameplay in the game.But as long as Necromancers don't receive a relevant buff towards their power builds i will just simply kick them from my fractal parties.

But double weaver isn't optimal everywhere. It's only really good for the challenge modes and some boss fractals with big hitbox targets. Everywhere else builds like Holo or Dh can actually be better than weavers but usually everybody only cares about cms.Weaver/Tempest is actually really weak underwater compared to holo or dps chrono but nobody cares for that 1 fractal anyways.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Feanor.2358" I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

You show me that video and i'll link you one that does it way faster than any of your x5 necros.

For example: Cliff Side. Can your 5 necros finish in less than 5 minutes? Because let me tell you a meta comp can. Evidence below.

Oh but they are super lite thats not 99% of the player base. Your missing the point. Meta > Your 5 necros or 4 necros and druid or whatever. I know I sound condescending. But I really wish people would not complain about running the most efficient way possible.

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I've played recently with very nice full pug group. It was non meta obviously, we even had minion mancer necro with us. Even though unhappy with the team comp we decided to try. We did all dailies without a wipe in about 40 mins.

As always, meta is not a problem, people are the problem. This game attracted some people they never should attract and now we need to deal with them. But it's old story, it's happening since release :)

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@Kenny.5826 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"Feanor.2358" I'll make a video soon, to show you how 5x epis works with ping ponging exponential condi amplification. Then you tell me Scourges aren't meta when mobs are or bosses with adds are present.

You show me that video and i'll link you one that does it way faster than any of your x5 necros.

For example: Cliff Side. Can your 5 necros finish in less than 5 minutes? Because let me tell you a meta comp can. Evidence below.

Oh but they are super lite thats not 99% of the player base. Your missing the point. Meta > Your 5 necros or 4 necros and druid or whatever. I know I sound condescending. But I really wish people would not complain about running the most efficient way possible.

It's very entertaining to watch that and it's also very curious how worried Anet was with guaranteeing Necro's sand portal couldn't go beyond line of sight when Mes can blink-skip that far into a jumping section. Dragging mobs together from miles away when Necro can't hit something with shades if that something is behind a tiny rock. Definitely people who complain about the meta simply never felt how good it is to play meta.

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  • 1 month later...

@Cerioth.7062 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Builds are so strong nowadays that it no longer requires a meta to complete such content as T4 fractals. Just run w/e you want. It isn't even about meta anymore, it's just about dealing a lot of DPS and not dying. Pretty easy to do in T4 fractals.

Thats how I have ALWAYS done my t4 fractals......

Yup, same here. And this brings us back to the original point of this thread, how silly it is to demand raid subgroups in fractals, because fractals are hard.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Builds are so strong nowadays that it no longer requires a meta to complete such content as T4 fractals. Just run w/e you want. It isn't even about meta anymore, it's just about dealing a lot of DPS and not dying. Pretty easy to do in T4 fractals.

Thats how I have ALWAYS done my t4 fractals......

Yup, same here. And this brings us back to the original point of this thread, how silly it is to demand raid subgroups in fractals, because fractals are hard.

There are other ways to do fractals, than face rolling everything with max dps you can dish out?

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