Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged] - Page 14 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

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  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Stihl do you raid?

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  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

    Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

    At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

    If there are players that would rather do the easy mode and not play normal raids at all, then you aren't owed their help in the normal mode. If raids were starved of players jusb because easy mode existed, then perhaps the current mode should never have been made (as it would mean there simply weren't enough people interested in it in the first place).

    @yann.1946 said:
    Well i have to disagree with the simpel reason dungeons exist for example. You're argument could be used to say dungeons shouldn't have existed to begin with.

    Raids don't have poor rewards, and they aren't officially abandoned by the devs, so it's not really comparable. If dungeons didn't have their rewards nerfed and people weren't told to go elsewhere, they'd still be alive.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    Stihl do you raid?

    I raided for decades.. I came here to get away from that kind of content. If I wanted to keep raiding, I would still be playing my previous MMO.. or.. an MMO designed from the ground up to be about raids.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

    Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

    At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

    If players would leave the real raids for easy mode raids, they never wanted to do the raids to start with and were just chasing loot.

    Truth hurts.

    Maximizing loot/reward ratio is a standard behavior and it doesn't prove what you think it does.
    The only truth here is that easier content already exists. In fact, it accounts for the vast majority of the pve content.

    Spoken like someone that needs to keep their clientele, Nothing but respect, if I was selling Raid clears for 100-200 gold a boss, I'd say and do anything to protect that as well.

    I've had enough of you spreading false information about me. From now on, every time you call me a raid seller, this one included, I'll report you for name calling. Not that "raid seller" is an insult, but I won't stand you spreading lies and trying to undermine valid arguments by implying false personal motivation.

    Well, if not for selling a raid and protecting your own profits, why else would you care if there was an easy mode put in?

    Truth is, I'd respect a raid seller trying to keep their coin income more then I would the other motives which are really just pitiful e-kitten waving and wanting to feel better then the unwashed masses. So.. yah.

    I've given plenty of argumentation, it's not my fault you refuse to hear any of it.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    I still hold out hope that Anet management steps in and realizes this sooner rather than later - but I do think that easy modes/tiered difficulties will have to happen. It is just a matter of time.

    LOL, I think the Raid team would get canned first, Management does not design the raids, that is the Dev's jobs, so they will either do a job of it, or not. If the job they are doing is not good enough management won't come in and tell them how to make a raid, they will fire them, and either hire a new team, or just stop raid development. In a Game like GW2, since raids are not linked to any other content, just stopping them (like they did with Dungeons) will have almost no impact other then some crying on the forums.

    Truth is, at this point, I would bet most of the gold that goes into buying raids comes from people that farmed it as opposed to Gem-trade, so, what happens is, People Farm gold to buy a raid, then the seller used that gold to buy gems, and.... Anet makes less money overall.

    And truth is, if someone just spent.. say 2,500 gold to buy the raids to get Evony armor, they are not going to buy outfits, or anything else from the store, given how much they paid for their armor, so most cosmetic items will not be generating real money income. Which is why we saw such a move by Anet to find ways to generate real money income from mounts.

    But that is just me pontificating on this issue.

    Lot of jumping to conclusions here. Personally, I've invested significantly more effort getting the Envoy than I spend getting 2500 gold. And yet I purchased and used several outfits after that. So once again your "truth" is nothing but baseless speculation, demonstrably false.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    Truth is, at this point, I would bet most of the gold that goes into buying raids comes from people that farmed it as opposed to Gem-trade, so, what happens is, People Farm gold to buy a raid, then the seller used that gold to buy gems, and.... Anet makes less money overall.

    And truth is, if someone just spent.. say 2,500 gold to buy the raids to get Evony armor, they are not going to buy outfits, or anything else from the store, given how much they paid for their armor, so most cosmetic items will not be generating real money income. Which is why we saw such a move by Anet to find ways to generate real money income from mounts.

    But that is just me pontificating on this issue.

    If raid selling has such a big impact as you are assuming Anet would already have stopped that and changing the ToS etc. Raid selling is a niche compared to the overall raid community. Of course it's a profitable business as one poster recently pointed out in this forum but have a look at the economy changes that came with PoF and LS4. That's a significant impact, not raid selling.
    Also, gem prices are very stable which means that there is enough real money going into the game. Plus the majority of players is making much more gold through direct play and buy stuff from the gem shop with it. Almost all of my guild members are exchanging gold into gems and we don't sell any raid at all, not even fracs or dungeons.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    About as likely to happen as more paths for easy legendary gear. :wink:

    Honestly, Not likely to happen at all. Why would they even consider it? The game model doesn't support it; in otherwords, Anet creates content; YOU decide to participate in it. If you decide to not, there isn't a problem with that. it OK if you don't do content; Anet EXPECTS that not everyone can do everything they put in the game.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • This subject arises regularly, and it's best to keep such a conversation in a single thread, to get a true cross-section of opinion. Therefore, we've merged this thread and ask for your indulgence in doing so.

    Those of you who have not voted may do so on the first page. Otherwise, the comments here, while merged, will give a pretty solid representation of the differing opinions on this topic.

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  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Blaeys.3102 said:
    It is good to see this topic resurface periodically on its own, as many of us predicted it would.

    I still contend that the way raids are currently implemented does not fit with the rest of the game, potentially fragments the story experience, encourages toxicity among players and is unsustainable long term.

    I don't know I have found 10-15 cool men and women far from being elite but also not open world casual style I'm talking to on a daily basis in discord. Raids brought us together and we also play other games together if we are not in the mood for GW2. I haven't had that situation before. Of course I was in a several guilds (mass guilds but also little ones) with friends before and we had a lot of fun together but they left. Not due to raids (they weren't even interesting in raiding), they left because content releases are too rare and only a few really interesting and special things got into the game not enough to keep them in.
    Raids in their actual shape are holding players with similar expectations together. And referring to the date of introduction and the popularity in the LFG, plus reddit, plus videos, plus guides they have a solid spot in the game and the community by now.

    Outside of a tiered difficulty system, I believe the only way they can maintain consistent long-term interest will be to use a lopsided reward system that creates a severe have/have not situation between raiders and non raiders - something many players would find disheartening. That is a dangerous road to go down and would fly in the face of the reasons many picked this game over other MMOs.

    The Players you mentioned can and still are playing the content they like. They are not dependent from the raid community. Even the rewards are not that epic compared to other stuff in the game. In addition to that gold is the main reward in this game and can achieved way better by not raiding!

    I still hold out hope that Anet management steps in and realizes this sooner rather than later - but I do think that easy modes/tiered difficulties will have to happen. It is just a matter of time.

    I won't take away your hope and I'm sure I'm not able to but it's more likely that GW2 will be abandoned the next years than having major turnings. Milking the cow it is and I expect to see one final shallow expac like PoF before it all ends.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    Truth is, at this point, I would bet most of the gold that goes into buying raids comes from people that farmed it as opposed to Gem-trade, so, what happens is, People Farm gold to buy a raid, then the seller used that gold to buy gems, and.... Anet makes less money overall.

    And truth is, if someone just spent.. say 2,500 gold to buy the raids to get Evony armor, they are not going to buy outfits, or anything else from the store, given how much they paid for their armor, so most cosmetic items will not be generating real money income. Which is why we saw such a move by Anet to find ways to generate real money income from mounts.

    But that is just me pontificating on this issue.

    If raid selling has such a big impact as you are assuming Anet would already have stopped that and changing the ToS etc. Raid selling is a niche compared to the overall raid community.

    They would first need to know if it was the problem. One of the many issues that arise with a cash shop or generic pool of money, is that what content is profitable and what is hurting you becomes a matter of guesswork.

    Most players quit or stop spending money without a word, and revising the TOS without anything to justify or back up their decisions, would be an overall bad move.

    But, here is what we do have, Raids and their Difficulty are a reoccurring topic on these forums... and sales are down.

    I am sure you will make all kinds of excuses that there is no correlation or causation, but something is wrong here, and Anet is losing money over it.

    It's on them to make a solution.. not me.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Raids are made for a minority. Without the carrot aka legendary armor an even smaller. So Raiders have to protect their precious shinies in hope that Raids dont follow Dungeons into oblivion.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I raided for decades.. I came here to get away from that kind of content. If I wanted to keep raiding, I would still be playing my previous MMO.. or.. an MMO designed from the ground up to be about raids.

    Excellent, so why don't you just go on with your original plan? There's exactly nothing in GW2 that would even remotely force people to play raids. But stop trying to ruin content that's perfectly fine for its intended target audience.

    Praise delta!

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    They would first need to know if it was the problem. One of the many issues that arise with a cash shop or generic pool of money, is that what content is profitable and what is hurting you becomes a matter of guesswork.

    You doubt they don't have the metrics for that? I don't because they can also backtrack cash and gold flow when it comes to gold selling and such stuff. They already mentioned it in connection with raid selling.
    I mean you can philosophize like you wish in the end you need to present us a proof otherwise it's not to be taken seriously.

    But, here is what we do have, Raids and their Difficulty are a reoccurring topic on these forums... and sales are down.

    The reason that sales are down is obvious. Have a look at the expansion. It was a weak noodle only a shape for the introduction of mounts which are the highlight. The rest, meh. No interesting metas, no replay value, no other interesting or special things besides mounts. Such an expac won't bring many new players into the game. Of course, they get some but hey the game will turn 6 this year. That's a long time and since Anet isn't a company like Blizz it's a fact that we are far beyond the peak of GW2. I'm not disaffected but look around you and the evolution of games, faster release circles and early access stuff.

    I am sure you will make all kinds of excuses that there is no correlation or causation, but something is wrong here, and Anet is losing money over it.

    I don't need any excuses I still don't see any valid correlation or even causation between raids and low sales. Raids are rather improving sales because they are targeting a specific player base that would have left the game otherwise. I repeat myself: After LS3 PoF was released very fast and brought five new casual maps that were empty within weeks and had 0 replay value. Mounts were great but then? All my casual friends left the game again because it's boring as hell (for them) while I still have fun playing fractals, doing SAB or - oh wonder - am raiding.
    LS4 is the same thing. You play the story for about 2-3 hours, spending 1-2 weeks on the new map and then you're done. Honestly, none of those things are influenced by raiding. It's rather bad decision making on the main route.
    Easy mode raids wouldn't spice up the game for casuals. For the majority of players there has to be significant rewards, profitable rewards. Easy modes would be played once or farmed depending on their reward structure. Given the fact that raid rewards are way worse compared to many other things in the game an easy mode would be rewarded terribly and thus not very well visited.
    Do they need to change anything in my opinion? Yes, but that has nothing to do with raids. GW2 needs interesting stuff with replay value for casual players. In contrast to the small raid dev team the LS teams are monstrous. There are the responsible persons, there are the possibilities!

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    that someone needs to deny other people fun to enjoy a game.

    I don't understand how raids deny other people fun to enjoy a game? We already had the comparison with PvP and WvW. I as a PvE player have no advantages of content there. Still patches/changes/development doesn't take my fun away because this content isn't created for me but for others that enjoy it.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I raided for decades.. I came here to get away from that kind of content. If I wanted to keep raiding, I would still be playing my previous MMO.. or.. an MMO designed from the ground up to be about raids.

    Excellent, so why don't you just go on with your original plan? There's exactly nothing in GW2 that would even remotely force people to play raids. But stop trying to ruin content that's perfectly fine for its intended target audience.

    This is where you are a wrong.. They Locked Legendary Armor behind Raids, if they put in some other PvE path, maybe a PoF or Core Path, I would gladly flip raids the bird and never deal with them again.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    definetely both..

    raids were from the moment they got added under this currently terrible design doomed to fail on the long run as content designed only for a tiny fraction of players that anet wanted to die hard try to lure away from an specific other game, at the cost of alienating their whole community just for that ... bad mov,e realyl BAD MOVE from anet, which sould have gotten fixed immediately within the first 6 months after HoT release.

    Every player should have the chance to experience raids at their very owen skill level and time pace how they want and feel themself skilled enough for, until they think they are ready for the higher difficulties, without havign to rely themself on peop,le which must "teach" them how they have to do things ..

    Raids should become finaly a LEARNING BY DOING principle that takes players with an easy mode on their hands, givign them a mode, where you can first collect experience with raids and the new content as in itself, until you get used to it, the raid specific mechanics and so on where the moment when you get to play the higher difficulties should be completely open to the player.

    Easy Moth would make raids more accessible to players, it would solve also the situation of legendary armors, if you could earn them in easy mode as well, but naturally much slower, than when playiugn the higher difficulties, where youd earn them much faster then and earn also in general more rewards there to increase the reward to time spent relationship letting them be on the higher difficulties naturall<y be significantly bett,er than on the lowest difficulty, where the rewards to time spent in raids relationship should be basicalyl the worst one, therefore that the broadest mass of players can have access to that content at their own player skill level/ and time pace


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  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    They would first need to know if it was the problem. One of the many issues that arise with a cash shop or generic pool of money, is that what content is profitable and what is hurting you becomes a matter of guesswork.

    You doubt they don't have the metrics for that? I don't because they can also backtrack cash and gold flow when it comes to gold selling and such stuff. They already mentioned it in connection with raid selling.
    I mean you can philosophize like you wish in the end you need to present us a proof otherwise it's not to be taken seriously.

    But, here is what we do have, Raids and their Difficulty are a reoccurring topic on these forums... and sales are down.

    The reason that sales are down is obvious. Have a look at the expansion. It was a weak noodle only a shape for the introduction of mounts which are the highlight. The rest, meh. No interesting metas, no replay value, no other interesting or special things besides mounts. Such an expac won't bring many new players into the game. Of course, they get some but hey the game will turn 6 this year. That's a long time and since Anet isn't a company like Blizz it's a fact that we are far beyond the peak of GW2. I'm not disaffected but look around you and the evolution of games, faster release circles and early access stuff.

    I am sure you will make all kinds of excuses that there is no correlation or causation, but something is wrong here, and Anet is losing money over it.

    I don't need any excuses I still don't see any valid correlation or even causation between raids and low sales. Raids are rather improving sales because they are targeting a specific player base that would have left the game otherwise. I repeat myself: After LS3 PoF was released very fast and brought five new casual maps that were empty within weeks and had 0 replay value. Mounts were great but then? All my casual friends left the game again because it's boring as hell (for them) while I still have fun playing fractals, doing SAB or - oh wonder - am raiding.
    LS4 is the same thing. You play the story for about 2-3 hours, spending 1-2 weeks on the new map and then you're done. Honestly, none of those things are influenced by raiding. It's rather bad decision making on the main route.
    Easy mode raids wouldn't spice up the game for casuals. For the majority of players there has to be significant rewards, profitable rewards. Easy modes would be played once or farmed depending on their reward structure. Given the fact that raid rewards are way worse compared to many other things in the game an easy mode would be rewarded terribly and thus not very well visited.
    Do they need to change anything in my opinion? Yes, but that has nothing to do with raids. GW2 needs interesting stuff with replay value for casual players. In contrast to the small raid dev team the LS teams are monstrous. There are the responsible persons, there are the possibilities!

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    that someone needs to deny other people fun to enjoy a game.

    I don't understand how raids deny other people fun to enjoy a game? We already had the comparison with PvP and WvW. I as a PvE player have no advantages of content there. Still patches/changes/development doesn't take my fun away because this content isn't created for me but for others that enjoy it.

    Well.. may take away from this was "My casual friends left the game again"

    So, for those that missed this, that means these players left before PoF launched, most likely due to HoT being what drove them away to start with (which would explain the sharp drop in sales following HoT).

    Which is the real point here, they came back for PoF, played for a bit, no doubt enjoyed the content as it were, and then realized that again there was no end game for them here, So they left again.

    Yah... well.. that sums up the main problem we have at this point.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • mindcircus.1506mindcircus.1506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    deleting, misread something

  • Rezzet.3614Rezzet.3614 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    personally i think the only tweak raids need is lowering breakbar hp, to allow more build and class diversity

    also make vale guardian orbs killable :v , they are just annoying .

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

    Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

    At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

    If players would leave the real raids for easy mode raids, they never wanted to do the raids to start with and were just chasing loot.

    Truth hurts.

    Maximizing loot/reward ratio is a standard behavior and it doesn't prove what you think it does.
    The only truth here is that easier content already exists. In fact, it accounts for the vast majority of the pve content.

    Spoken like someone that needs to keep their clientele, Nothing but respect, if I was selling Raid clears for 100-200 gold a boss, I'd say and do anything to protect that as well.

    I've had enough of you spreading false information about me. From now on, every time you call me a raid seller, this one included, I'll report you for name calling. Not that "raid seller" is an insult, but I won't stand you spreading lies and trying to undermine valid arguments by implying false personal motivation.

    Well, if not for selling a raid and protecting your own profits, why else would you care if there was an easy mode put in?

    Truth is, I'd respect a raid seller trying to keep their coin income more then I would the other motives which are really just pitiful e-kitten waving and wanting to feel better then the unwashed masses. So.. yah.

    I've given plenty of argumentation, it's not my fault you refuse to hear any of it.

    Well, you may have said a lot of words on the subject matter, but truth be told, unless someone was selling raids, all the other reasons are vastly shallow and self serving, showing a massive lack of character, that someone needs to deny other people fun to enjoy a game. I respect the raid sellers far more then those people.

    How convenient to portray everything that doesn't fit your own agenda as either greed of "massive lack of character". You're right about one thing though - I had said a lot of words on the subject matter. So I won't bother repeating them. Your attempts at discrediting me do not make my arguments any less valid.

    Well here is a challenge for you. Give me a reason why you want raids to be as they are, that is not purely self serving, and centered around needing to find self validation in game by acquiring some bauble for you to parade about that the filthy masses should not be allowed to have as well. I say this because you are also adamantly against there being any other PvE path to obtain Legendary Armor.

    I'll wait.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Deeyra.1476Deeyra.1476 Member ✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Adding easy mode would be like going into lvl 80 area with a lvl 20 character with no gear and expecting to kill everything. Raids are NOT hard , its the people who are not willing to learn and want to get carried . If this was not the case, raid selling wouldn't exist and in high Li groups, things would go smoothly. Which is usually not the case in 50% od pugs i do. I speak from experience and some people are just not willing to listen and wont take any advice you give them. If you want easier content , you have world bosses.

    triggered

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 1, 2018

    @Orpheal.8263 said:
    definetely both..

    raids were from the moment they got added under this currently terrible design doomed to fail on the long run as content designed only for a tiny fraction of players that anet wanted to die hard try to lure away from an specific other game, at the cost of alienating their whole community just for that ... bad mov,e realyl BAD MOVE from anet, which sould have gotten fixed immediately within the first 6 months after HoT release.

    Every player should have the chance to experience raids at their very owen skill level and time pace how they want and feel themself skilled enough for, until they think they are ready for the higher difficulties, without havign to rely themself on peop,le which must "teach" them how they have to do things ..

    Raids should become finaly a LEARNING BY DOING principle that takes players with an easy mode on their hands, givign them a mode, where you can first collect experience with raids and the new content as in itself, until you get used to it, the raid specific mechanics and so on where the moment when you get to play the higher difficulties should be completely open to the player.

    Easy Moth would make raids more accessible to players, it would solve also the situation of legendary armors, if you could earn them in easy mode as well, but naturally much slower, than when playiugn the higher difficulties, where youd earn them much faster then and earn also in general more rewards there to increase the reward to time spent relationship letting them be on the higher difficulties naturall<y be significantly bett,er than on the lowest difficulty, where the rewards to time spent in raids relationship should be basicalyl the worst one, therefore that the broadest mass of players can have access to that content at their own player skill level/ and time pace

    I have to agree with you, but, it's been 2.5 years and a full expansion since their creation, nothing has changed about them, and there has been ample opportunity to do so from Anet's end of the development.

    Now, as odd as this may be, but from an outside looking in view, this reminds me of when WoW released Cataclysm. Now I never played WoW, so I was not there, and I do not have first hand knowledge of what went down.. or what was said by the players on the forums and other media, but.. I will say this. Something happened and it was something that inevitably hurt the game in an irreparable manner.

    HoT looks to have done the same thing to GW2. Now, is it just one single thing.. I don't know, in that front, I am not sure. but I will say, Raids did hurt the Casual End Game in this game, as it set up a wall to their progress. I think it had already been a problem, due to the Fractal Back item, as I am sure that caused some issues, but, the whole Legendary Armor locked Behind raids, was almost as if Anet was making it clear that this was not a casuals game anymore.

    What did they think was going to happen when that message was sent out, that Casuals would stay around, dump money into the game, and love them for it, or did they expect at least a good number of them to catch the clue, and start to look for something new.

    I am sure many casuals are still around, I still play from time to time, as it were, but without an end game or long term goals the game feels.. meh.

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  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    You need to reread the hypothetical situation we were discussing. In it, Yann posited that if 100 players would play Content A (a stand-in for raids in their current form), yet Content B became available (presumably a stand-in for an easy mode), then Content A would suffer a net loss of 30% of its playerbase. Now you can argue that these players "already had something else to do available," but clearly for whatever reason they were not exercising that option until an easier raid became available. As soon as it did, 30% of them declared "hey, we've rather be doing that instead." And that's all well and good, it's how it should be. If people would prefer to be doing something else, that's not a reason to not provide that option.

    You, however, are not making hypothetical requests for a hypothetical game played by hypothetical players. It's a real game and the issues discussed are real. And that is a real reason why your suggestions are bad.

    But again, even in the real game, it reaches the same results. If the availability of an easy mode would put the viability of the harder mode at risk, then the harder mode doesn't deserve to survive. Its survival should not come at the expense of those X amount of players who would abandon it instead being stuck with a mode that apparently they would abandon at the earliest opportunity.

    Yann is basically presenting one possible scenario, but there are really two.

    In Yann's, enough people would rather not be doing harder raids that if an easier option presented itself, they would jump ship, and the total current population is already so small that it could not survive such an exodus. In this scenario barely enough people participate in raids as it is, and apparently not enough of them actually enjoy doing it to fully justify the mode in the first place.

    The alternate scenario (given the same gameplay changes) is that X amount of players would leave for the new mode, but that the raids were still healthy enough to absorb such a loss, and continue unharmed. I would think that this would be the scenario raiders would want to believe, but in either case, the situation works out for the best, namely that players would be doing the thing they preferred doing, rather being trapped between two bad options.

    I actually presented a third option in which the easy mode would absorb people from the hard mode and then eventually die out leading to a net loss

    That doesn't seem realistic, unless they really flub the implementation of the easy mode in some way.

    But a big part of every videogame is making people do things. You can't satisfy everyone and would you need to satisfy people if it would mean a net loss in players?

    "Making" people do things is a REALLY bad design philosophy. What you want to do is reward players for doing things they enjoy doing. If you reward them for grind, then it will be less and less effective over time. You need to figure out want that want to do, and then reward them for doing it.

    The biggest part about this discussion is why should a mode be changed to accommodate the people for which it was not designed?

    I don't think it should be changed, if people like the current version they should be allowed to continue with it. But I do think there should be an alternative version of it, for people who don't enjoy all of it, but would enjoy that alternative mode.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    in either case, the situation works out for the best, namely that players would be doing the thing they preferred doing, rather being trapped between two bad options.

    The players are already doing what they prefer doing. Once again, raids aren't the entirety of this game. There is plenty to play aside, and many do so. You're struggling to reason something, using a goal which is already achieved.

    Again, in the example, 100 people were raiding before, and after easy mode was added, 130 people were raiding, and of those, thirty had shifted from the hard to easy mode, so clearly they were unsatisfied with the existing version. I'm not saying that there's no way for players to spend their time without an easy mode being offered, but I am pointing out that there are a lot of players who would appreciate having the alternative of an easy mode, because "not raiding at all" is not their preferred outcome, and "playing the currently difficult raids" is also not their preferred outcome.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    GW2 had a good and interesting casual end game before HoT?
    I'd like to know what that was...because I had the impression that many many people left the game due to a huge content drought in every aspect of the game.
    And yeah, my friends left again after they have left some months after HoT release because they were missing reasonable and replayable content. None of them blamed raids for that when they came out. They actually tried and got some (easy) bosses down. Still they were just not interested in this kind of content.

    Since my post got deleted due to being an answer of an unacceptable post (I didn't report it btw.), here is my subjective answer again:

    I'm totally in for good casual endgame content but I'm definitely not convinced that easy mode raids will be the solution here. New dungeons would be by far the better option filled with lore and other things because that is what casual players like - a deeper identification with the game and its story. The actual raid wings don't serve this purpose at all imho. The bosses were designed to be beaten, the lore is secondary and is only present to not have an empty room/platform and a boss because the overwhelming majority of raiders is interested in the fights and not the things connected to anything else.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Deeyra.1476 said:
    Adding easy mode would be like going into lvl 80 area with a lvl 20 character with no gear and expecting to kill everything. Raids are NOT hard , its the people who are not willing to learn and want to get carried .

    Raids are not hard for you because Raiders like you prefer to group with people that knows how to raid and, the only way to learn how to raid is to actually raid.

    If this was not the case, raid selling wouldn't exist and in high Li groups, things would go smoothly. Which is usually not the case in 50% od pugs i do. I speak from experience and some people are just not willing to listen and wont take any advice you give them. If you want easier content , you have world bosses.

    Raid selling exist because it is difficult for a non-raider to find a group that accepts them.

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  • Zushada.6108Zushada.6108 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    The options in the poll actually don't 100% reflect my thoughts. There already exists Challenge Motes which, I feel are working as intended in the game. What I would really like to see is a "Training Mode" where teams can go in and learn/teach mechanics. This mode would feature the exact mechanics seen in the Raids now, only the damage would be more forgiving with a longer timer.

    Included would be a "Raid Mote" where after the team has learned the mechanics they could toggle the Raid Mote and give it a go as it exists to test their skills. Why do I suggest this? There is an over confidence in some ppl who think they can one-shot certain raids. By having a Training Raid, with a "Raid Mote" the CMDr would be able to toggle the mote (even before running the training version) and show the reality of the fight, and demonstrate why the training raid is helpful/needed. As the OP mentioned, loot would be different and no LI given for the Training Raid.

    Just my thoughts but I think it is something that can be done to reflect the unique aspects of GW2 Raids but also, give the community the opportunity to learn the raids without the pressure of more experienced players. Anet just needs to understand that they have a growing community of players who want to raid, but are struggling to gain access to the raids due to the current structure.

  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2018
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

    Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

    At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

    And that is why T1/T2/T3 Fractals should go away. They are taking away the T4 players. Also remove T4 Fractals so that I can get more 99/100 CM players for my group even though I can already get players quickly. /s

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  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    GW2 had a good and interesting casual end game before HoT?
    I'd like to know what that was...because I had the impression that many many people left the game due to a huge content drought in every aspect of the game.
    And yeah, my friends left again after they have left some months after HoT release because they were missing reasonable and replayable content. None of them blamed raids for that when they came out. They actually tried and got some (easy) bosses down. Still they were just not interested in this kind of content.

    Since my post got deleted due to being an answer of an unacceptable post (I didn't report it btw.), here is my subjective answer again:

    I'm totally in for good casual endgame content but I'm definitely not convinced that easy mode raids will be the solution here. New dungeons would be by far the better option filled with lore and other things because that is what casual players like - a deeper identification with the game and its story. The actual raid wings don't serve this purpose at all imho. The bosses were designed to be beaten, the lore is secondary and is only present to not have an empty room/platform and a boss because the overwhelming majority of raiders is interested in the fights and not the things connected to anything else.

    I heard of a lot a Meta players leaving Core due to content issues, but I don't recall any casuals having issues with it, in fact, from what I recall, Orr mob density was scaled back to make it easier, and Arah was made into a Solo Dungeon as there were complaints that having it be a 5 man dungeon was annoying to people trying to get their Personal Story done.

    Anet made HoT due to the constant requests of challenging content by the meta players, not the casuals. Which, well, as we both know, a lot of casuals left due it not being content they enjoyed doing.

    With that said. he problem with introducing something like Raids, is that they no longer can make Casual End Game content, as the raiders, and Meta players will make a fuss that since their content is harder and thus it should have better rewards, as such no matter what content Anet makes for the casuals, it will always be ranked as mid-game style content and need to provide lower reward tables.

    They really shot themselves in the foot with their current set up.

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  • runeblade.7514runeblade.7514 Member ✭✭✭
    We need both easy and hard modes

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @runeblade.7514 said:

    @Talindra.4958 said:

    @belognom.3685 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    All these you can learn in other instanced content the game features - the Fractals of the Mists. The actual mechanics you can't learn from a relaxed version, just like you can't learn how to play CM fractals from playing their normal-mode counterparts. The pressure is much different so you need to practice on the real thing.

    I'm doing Fractals, rarely doing 4 tho but i have done them, mostly t3s. See it's not planning I juts go with pugs from lfg. Now how is that gonna help me to get a raid done? Fractals mech are different from what i see on raid bosses on tube videos. General dodging? Alright, I think I can manage that.
    I wanna see the content, simle and I can't. Tho my toon is geared in ascended (wvw and raid) and has a good arsenal of ascended wepons.

    But the game offered no progression whatsoever. Than content is close to me and that isn't nice. I done everything on my part, that i had to do, how I can go do raids?

    P.S. I would like to state this again. I'm not asking for one shot bosses. Maybe less damage, perhaps 80% -85% of current one, so pugs won't be walking away from raids.

    I'm in biggest guild 2k members only 2-3 person i know do raiding, rest are avoiding it as plague. Simply none has time for preparation and planning and dedicated time to go into raids for 4 hours.

    If you done all fractal achievements and cm. I say you are pretty much ready to start raid in current form not easy mode. They can't make raid easier than fractal. Try fractal 99 and fractal 100 normal mode. That two fractal is raid like but super easy mode.

    I have done 99/100 CM and all T4 but, No one wants me in their raid because I have no experience in them.

    I didn't need a T4 training group. I learnt the mechanics from the easier difficulties of Fractals. I didn't need a training group for 99/100 CM, I learnt most of the mechanics from the regular T4. However, Fractals are not raids.

    ofc fractal is not raid. but there are people who hasn't even want to touch t4 and cm and want to ask for raid to be easier so they can try it. if you are not prepared to try fractal cm, in raid you have no chance.

    And there are people that did T4 and CM that can't get into raids. Your entire "prepared to try fractal cm, in raid you have no chance" is wrong.

    that is what i mean. mentality counts. raid you have to sacrifies more time and effort. if they make raid easier which i have no objection to except that easy mode raid should not have any reward associated to it. because it is pointless to have easy mode raid that reward li or anything... i have friends who started couple of months ago. and they have now more than 100 li and even managed to do raid cm. i understand that for some people raid is difficult not because of skill but also time dedication and attitude too. but it is what it is. by all means make it easier. but no reward associated. otherwise it is pointless..

    An easier raid mode would remove the need to sacrifice time and effort and let the player learn by playing similar to how Fractals were designed. Guild Wars 2 is a game, not a job. I do not want that mentality in Guild Wars 2.

    if easy mode raid just for practice, then by all means make it purely for training no reward to be given. we also know that players will ask for more, once it is made easier as requested. it will be more into it.. so dev need to consider as to what limit this is and their intend of raid is in this game.

    I disagree. Easier raid mode should have rewards. Less rewards, sure. But it must have rewards so that the work that ANet did to put in easy mode would not go to waste and that there will always be people that would do easy mode raid for new players starting to getting into raids. So they can learn naturally instead of being in the mercy of experienced raiders.

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  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    not saying people can get in raid or not if they do fractal or not. i am saying people who hasn't even done any fractal, should not ask for raid to be in easy more so they can try. what about try fractal first? they haven't done t4, you think they are ready for raid? those that never done raid has no idea the amount of time raiders spent at the beginning stage wiping. i am not opposing to have raid made easier mode, i am saying if you cant get in raid, why don't you try fractal first? many of these people can not even do fractal believe it or not. i have 1 very casual guildie PMed me, asking for help with build and etc. he also commented that SC video is a lie because there is no way people can do 40k dps. He consistently pm me that he wanted to get into raid but he couldnt even manage maitrin when we were trying to help him with a leg weapon collection. there is always an excuse why he couldn't do that .. why he always go down.. why he couldn't dodge.. why and so on. if someone cant even manage t4 do you think he is ready for raid?
    and it isn't because we didn't want to help him, but we just not sure how to help him ...

    like i said earlier. if Dev make easy mode raid, players not going to end there, they are going to ask for more, similar to pvp and wvw leg armor, now they are saying we want skin not just stat changing. i mean.. if we change the current raid so more people has a chance to play it.. by all means do it. but.. that shouldn't change what dev originally has in mind what they like Raids in this game to be. otherwise, it doesn't serve the purpose of the original game structure and design intent.

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  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    not saying people can get in raid or not if they do fractal or not. i am saying people who hasn't even done any fractal, should not ask for raid to be in easy more so they can try. what about try fractal first?

    That's like saying that if someone has an issue with sPvP, "why not do WvW first?"

    Answer: "because they aren't interested in that, and don't need to be."

    They are separate activities.

    those that never done raid has no idea the amount of time raiders spent at the beginning stage wiping.

    I know full well how much time it takes, which is why I never want anything to do with that, and want them to make an easier mode to play instead of that.

    like i said earlier. if Dev make easy mode raid, players not going to end there, they are going to ask for more, similar to pvp and wvw leg armor, now they are saying we want skin not just stat changing.

    I want the skins and not the stat changing. The skins are the only important part.

  • Talindra.4958Talindra.4958 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2018
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    the thing is. fractal require skills. raid require more skills. if the person cant manage fractal, raid is not for him. dev is wasting time to make raid easy mode for him. because essentially he will not even able to do raid in easy mode. what is the point of wasting dev time for that? if he cant do fractal. do you think he can do raid?
    the reason fractal and raid has been brought up because before the post is merged, the OP said he hasn't tried t4, so i suggested him to do t4 first and also especially cm... while trying to get into Raid at the mean time. we have gone way side track since with discussion.

    and with pvp and wvw..... i also like to stress out that. someone who cant do pvp (i mean like really 1v1 2v1 3v1), he/she can still do wvw and get the leg armor.. just have to spend time in it without even needing to be in a wvw orientated guild. in pve raid, you cant do that. Do not expect pve raid to be like that, you need to spend a little bit of time to learn boss mechanic and profession role and duties. w/o doing that, you get kicked from pug group.

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  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    Tldr. But for those who had problem getting into raids had already solved it. The ongoing are just the same players from what I noticed.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Talindra.4958 said:
    the thing is. fractal require skills. raid require more skills. if the person cant manage fractal, raid is not for him.

    I think you're completely missing the point. People know that "raids are not for them."

    That is the entire reason that an easy mode is being discussed, because players fully recognize that "raids are not for them," but they would like a version of the raid that is for them, one that involves all the features of raiding except for the barriers of entry that make "raids not be for them."

    Until you can understand that this is what we're discussing then you can't meaningfully contribute to the discussion at all, all you could do is talk past everyone else.

  • FrizzFreston.5290FrizzFreston.5290 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids have problems, but we need a better solution

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    I'm totally in for good casual endgame content but I'm definitely not convinced that easy mode raids will be the solution here. New dungeons would be by far the better option filled with lore and other things because that is what casual players like - a deeper identification with the game and its story. The actual raid wings don't serve this purpose at all imho. The bosses were designed to be beaten, the lore is secondary and is only present to not have an empty room/platform and a boss because the overwhelming majority of raiders is interested in the fights and not the things connected to anything else.

    Definitely agree with this.
    Weve already seen with PoF what players think when its not entirely high enough quality. No need to make an easy mode on raids that is mostly piggybacking in that content without having enough substance of its own.

    I rather see easy raids/dungeons or even open world or even story mode replayability improvements. I really dont like copy pasta content.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    I raided for decades.. I came here to get away from that kind of content. If I wanted to keep raiding, I would still be playing my previous MMO.. or.. an MMO designed from the ground up to be about raids.

    Excellent, so why don't you just go on with your original plan? There's exactly nothing in GW2 that would even remotely force people to play raids. But stop trying to ruin content that's perfectly fine for its intended target audience.

    This is where you are a wrong.. They Locked Legendary Armor behind Raids

    This is where you are wrong, legendary armor is obtainable through PvP and WvW as well. Stop spreading misinformation.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    The higher requirements the community imposes are a natural result of the higher difficulty to carry the specific content. The same players, when playing easier content, just don't care. You can see this in high-end fractal parties who proceed to play recommended fractals after clearing t4 and cms. Someone leaves because they're not interested in recs, we LFG and don't care what we get. We'll faceroll the content anyway. We could easily 4-man, or 3-man it, but why not help someone along? At the same time, we really care what we get prior to that. Because 100 CM isn't that easy to carry. That's all. Same applies for raids.

    Exactly. This is why an easy mode would really work better for a lot of players that don't want to deal with any of that.

    At the expense of starving the real raids of the players they need. No thanks.

    If players would leave the real raids for easy mode raids, they never wanted to do the raids to start with and were just chasing loot.

    Truth hurts.

    Maximizing loot/reward ratio is a standard behavior and it doesn't prove what you think it does.
    The only truth here is that easier content already exists. In fact, it accounts for the vast majority of the pve content.

    Spoken like someone that needs to keep their clientele, Nothing but respect, if I was selling Raid clears for 100-200 gold a boss, I'd say and do anything to protect that as well.

    I've had enough of you spreading false information about me. From now on, every time you call me a raid seller, this one included, I'll report you for name calling. Not that "raid seller" is an insult, but I won't stand you spreading lies and trying to undermine valid arguments by implying false personal motivation.

    Well, if not for selling a raid and protecting your own profits, why else would you care if there was an easy mode put in?

    Truth is, I'd respect a raid seller trying to keep their coin income more then I would the other motives which are really just pitiful e-kitten waving and wanting to feel better then the unwashed masses. So.. yah.

    I've given plenty of argumentation, it's not my fault you refuse to hear any of it.

    Well, you may have said a lot of words on the subject matter, but truth be told, unless someone was selling raids, all the other reasons are vastly shallow and self serving, showing a massive lack of character, that someone needs to deny other people fun to enjoy a game. I respect the raid sellers far more then those people.

    How convenient to portray everything that doesn't fit your own agenda as either greed of "massive lack of character". You're right about one thing though - I had said a lot of words on the subject matter. So I won't bother repeating them. Your attempts at discrediting me do not make my arguments any less valid.

    Well here is a challenge for you. Give me a reason why you want raids to be as they are, that is not purely self serving, and centered around needing to find self validation in game by acquiring some bauble for you to parade about that the filthy masses should not be allowed to have as well. I say this because you are also adamantly against there being any other PvE path to obtain Legendary Armor.

    I'll wait.

    Ultimately all reasons here are self-serving. I want the raids to remain as they are because changing them the way you want would wreck them and I'll be unable to keep enjoying them. Because it is about my fun, my reasoning is, of course, partially selfish. But there's a difference. You want the raids to change in order to get a reward and you don't care if you're killing excellent content and the fun of players who like it, as long as you can get said reward. It's a huge, huge difference. One that makes your attempts at taking the moral high ground impossible.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @FrizzFreston.5290 said:
    I rather see easy raids/dungeons or even open world or even story mode replayability improvements. I really dont like copy pasta content.

    It is practically impossible that they could create comparable original content to an easy mode raid, even if they spent 2-4 times as much time and effort producing it. Realistically it would likely take ten times as many manhours or more.

    For all those complaining "an easy mode raid would just take too much time and effort, it's an unnecessary distraction to the devs!!!!!!," well, whether that is true or not, the time and effort needed to create something completely unique instead absolutely must be several times that.

    It would require every ounce of time and effort that would go into making an easy mode of an existing raid encounter, PLUS the time to model unique enemies, PLUS the time to develop unique mechanics for them, PLUS the time to construct new environments, PLUS presumably a new set of rewards since the raiders haven't learned to share, PLUS the story and dialog that would merge all that together. the more of those things the easy raid content can share with the existing raids, the less time and effort the devs need to put into making it happen. That's not to say that easy mode raids would be effortless, it would take time, I'm just pointing out that easy mode raids would take less time than any alternative other than "nothing at all."

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    You need to reread the hypothetical situation we were discussing. In it, Yann posited that if 100 players would play Content A (a stand-in for raids in their current form), yet Content B became available (presumably a stand-in for an easy mode), then Content A would suffer a net loss of 30% of its playerbase. Now you can argue that these players "already had something else to do available," but clearly for whatever reason they were not exercising that option until an easier raid became available. As soon as it did, 30% of them declared "hey, we've rather be doing that instead." And that's all well and good, it's how it should be. If people would prefer to be doing something else, that's not a reason to not provide that option.

    You, however, are not making hypothetical requests for a hypothetical game played by hypothetical players. It's a real game and the issues discussed are real. And that is a real reason why your suggestions are bad.

    But again, even in the real game, it reaches the same results. If the availability of an easy mode would put the viability of the harder mode at risk, then the harder mode doesn't deserve to survive. Its survival should not come at the expense of those X amount of players who would abandon it instead being stuck with a mode that apparently they would abandon at the earliest opportunity.

    Yann is basically presenting one possible scenario, but there are really two.

    In Yann's, enough people would rather not be doing harder raids that if an easier option presented itself, they would jump ship, and the total current population is already so small that it could not survive such an exodus. In this scenario barely enough people participate in raids as it is, and apparently not enough of them actually enjoy doing it to fully justify the mode in the first place.

    The alternate scenario (given the same gameplay changes) is that X amount of players would leave for the new mode, but that the raids were still healthy enough to absorb such a loss, and continue unharmed. I would think that this would be the scenario raiders would want to believe, but in either case, the situation works out for the best, namely that players would be doing the thing they preferred doing, rather being trapped between two bad options.

    I actually presented a third option in which the easy mode would absorb people from the hard mode and then eventually die out leading to a net loss

    That doesn't seem realistic, unless they really flub the implementation of the easy mode in some way.

    But a big part of every videogame is making people do things. You can't satisfy everyone and would you need to satisfy people if it would mean a net loss in players?

    "Making" people do things is a REALLY bad design philosophy. What you want to do is reward players for doing things they enjoy doing. If you reward them for grind, then it will be less and less effective over time. You need to figure out want that want to do, and then reward them for doing it.

    It really isn't. Let me quote a book for you:

    “Yes, I could have traveled quickly. But all men have the same ultimate destination. Whether we find our end in a hallowed sepulcher or a pauper’s ditch, all save the Heralds themselves must dine with the Nightwatcher. “ ‘And so, does the destination matter? Or is it the path we take? I declare that no accomplishment has substance nearly as great as the road used to achieve it. We are not creatures of destinations. It is the journey that shapes us. Our callused feet, our backs strong from carrying the weight of our travels, our eyes open with the fresh delight of experiences lived. “ ‘In the end, I must proclaim that no good can be achieved of false means. For the substance of our existence is not in the achievement, but in the method."

    You're focusing on the destination, on the reward. It's meaningless. It's the journey that matters. That's why the design approach in question is so good - because it designs the journey, the experience. Instead of relying on chance, or on the player's own imagination, will or immersion to create a memorable experience. Sure, there will be those who do it. But also, there will be those who won't. By designing the experience, you make sure everyone gets it. Of course, you can't ensure the same meaning for everyone, but it is still a much, much better result.

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    in either case, the situation works out for the best, namely that players would be doing the thing they preferred doing, rather being trapped between two bad options.

    The players are already doing what they prefer doing. Once again, raids aren't the entirety of this game. There is plenty to play aside, and many do so. You're struggling to reason something, using a goal which is already achieved.

    Again, in the example, 100 people were raiding before, and after easy mode was added, 130 people were raiding, and of those, thirty had shifted from the hard to easy mode, so clearly they were unsatisfied with the existing version. I'm not saying that there's no way for players to spend their time without an easy mode being offered, but I am pointing out that there are a lot of players who would appreciate having the alternative of an easy mode, because "not raiding at all" is not their preferred outcome, and "playing the currently difficult raids" is also not their preferred outcome.

    No, "raiding" on easy mode won't be raiding. You'll have less people doing actual raids, taking away from their fun in order to provide some other people with experience that is virtually the same as ones already existing in the game. It's a pure loss.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    We need an easy mode, but not a hard mode

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Ultimately all reasons here are self-serving. I want the raids to remain as they are because changing them the way you want would wreck them and I'll be unable to keep enjoying them. Because it is about my fun, my reasoning is, of course, partially selfish. But there's a difference. You want the raids to change in order to get a reward and you don't care if you're killing excellent content and the fun of players who like it, as long as you can get said reward. It's a huge, huge difference. One that makes your attempts at taking the moral high ground impossible.

    Why?

    Let's say that you're right (which you aren't) and that it is entirely about the reward (it isn't), why would that even hypothetically make his position in any way less virtuous than your own? As you say, you have a selfish interest in keeping things the same, because the current system benefits you and how you enjoy playing it. Fair enough. And the Straw-STIHL in your example would want things to change, because he doesn't like how things are, and would enjoy it more after. These are equally virtuous (or in-virtuous) positions.

    Now, if you want to actually find a high-ground, there are two factors to base that one. First is, how many would fall into each camp? If more people would be happy about it changing than would be sad about it changing, then they would get the high-ground, and vice-versa. The second would be a matter of whether or not the two sides are mutually exclusive, or if one side is being unreasonable.

    It's my assertion that they could add an easy mode without altering the hard mode in ANY way. In which case, you would no longer have any basis to complain that the mode you enjoyed would be going away. Now, would other players suddenly be able to play with those toys? Might they choose to do so rather than to help you play with yours? Perhaps, but you are not entitled to either of those things, and putting your own interest in monopolizing those resources ahead of their interest in sharing them would obviously be the far more self-absorbed position to take, and lose any hint of a high-ground in the argument.

    You're focusing on the destination, on the reward. It's meaningless. It's the journey that matters.

    Journey before destination, but the destination is still of interest. And don't forget that you are no less focused on the destination than I am, you are the one insisting that nobody can reach Urithiru except on foot.

    More importantly, your journey is not necessarily my journey. I'm not concerned with the destination in this case, so much as in having a journey that I would enjoy. I can say with certainty that I would not enjoy following your path, so why are you so objectionable to the idea of me having a path available that I would enjoy? Again, you can create the "memorable experience" you want people to have, and offer it to them, encourage them to pursue it, but it's also good to accept that it may not be for everyone, and offer alternatives for those that won't enjoy that particular flavor of experience.

    No, "raiding" on easy mode won't be raiding.

    This is a tautological argument that is pointless to pursue. It's basically the definition of "No True Scotsman." If you believe that "raiding on easy mode won't be raiding," then fine, I couldn't convince you otherwise. But it would by necessity be something, and whatever that "something" is, whatever you want to call that something, that is the something that I would want to play. If that's not what you could call raiding, that's fine. I couldn't care less about the name.

    You'll have less people doing actual raids, taking away from their fun in order to provide some other people with experience that is virtually the same as ones already existing in the game. It's a pure loss.

    Apparently not for those "less people doing actual raids" though, or else they would still be doing "actual raids." It's a net gain for them, and for all the people who currently don't raid at all that would enjoy this new thing (whatever you call it). Any people missing from the "actual raids" after this are people that you weren't entitled to in the first place, and their loss is a net gain, because it makes THEM happier. If them having more fun with how they choose to play results in them having more fun than if they played how you want them to play, then that's just too bad for you. Sorry.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Raids are fine the way they are, combining bosses of various difficulties

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    It's my assertion that they could add an easy mode without altering the hard mode in ANY way. In which case, you would no longer have any basis to complain that the mode you enjoyed would be going away. Now, would other players suddenly be able to play with those toys? Might they choose to do so rather than to help you play with yours? Perhaps, but you are not entitled to either of those things, and putting your own interest in monopolizing those resources ahead of their interest in sharing them would obviously be the far more self-absorbed position to take, and lose any hint of a high-ground in the argument.

    You're focusing on the destination, on the reward. It's meaningless. It's the journey that matters.

    Journey before destination, but the destination is still of interest. And don't forget that you are no less focused on the destination than I am, you are the one insisting that nobody can reach Urithiru except on foot.

    More importantly, your journey is not necessarily my journey. I'm not concerned with the destination in this case, so much as in having a journey that I would enjoy. I can say with certainty that I would not enjoy following your path, so why are you so objectionable to the idea of me having a path available that I would enjoy? Again, you can create the "memorable experience" you want people to have, and offer it to them, encourage them to pursue it, but it's also good to accept that it may not be for everyone, and offer alternatives for those that won't enjoy that particular flavor of experience.

    Let's focus on this, because it's the crux of the issue. By the way, kudos for catching the reference.

    The metaphor works for solitary experience. You'd be right if this only concerned the personal experience. However, it doesn't. Consider a Nohadon who would need to persuade 9 others to join him. A Nohadon who is no king and has no authority over them. There's the easy way, the direct way. Who would join him and why? This is where the metaphor breaks for your case. And this is why I'm objecting to your suggestion - because it would flip the tables completely. It would give you an experience, but it will take mine away. And what I keep saying all the time, it will only give you an experience which you can already get in the game. But the one it will take away from me has no alternative.

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