Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Increasing TTK, Undoing Old Split Changes and Eliminating Skill Splitting

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited February 13, 2019 in WvW

Giving an individual player the build tools to kill another player with 1 hit, or even in a few seconds with combos, is not healthy for this mode... This low TTK issue is also magnified when you have large numbers of players facing off against other large numbers of players too... So I’d like to present a few, FOR WvW AND SPVP ONLY, suggestions to increase the Time To Kill (TTK) and help make battles more hard fought, with more give and take to them. This will not screw over PvE because, as I typed, it's FOR WvW AND SPVP ONLY.

  • Increase base Health of professions. 30k for Ele, Guard and Thief. 35k for Engi, Mes, Ranger and Rev. 40k for Necro and War.

  • Increase numbers on personal heal skills and HP modifiers on personal heal skills.

  • Decrease all weapon and slot skill cool-downs by 50% to help maintain the fast paced skill decision making combat.

  • Reduce critical hit modifiers by 25%.

  • Double the health and damage output of NPC sentries, guards and lords.

  • Increase siege damage on players by 25%.

The benefits of the changes are...

  • This could possibly mean that the team wouldn't need to devote time and resources to "Skill Splits" between modes, unless there were some edge cases.

  • Previous splits could be undone, and more focus could be devoted to creating new "stuff", improving weapons for wvw and spvp play, tackling outstanding concerns... and evolving professions and mechanics in a positive direction for 2019 and beyond. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/62555/putting-fun-back-into-designs-and-balancing

  • Gear isn’t devalued at all. Players can still choose to use high damage builds.

  • Damage output by an individual build set up that seems “broken” now, will not seem so “broken” after... Massive 1 hit and multi-hit bursts become more manageable for the player on the receiving end because they are given time to react and fight back.

  • Having higher health numbers provides a “safety net” for both devs and players during the time it takes to address or fix things that are found to be “broken”.

  • Less forum QQ from us players, and maybe a rise in more productive conversations about wvw, spvp, professions and combat mechanics.

(Edit Note 11/20/18- Yes, I'm bumping this thread.... The wvw and pvp forums are constantly being barraged with OP this and that, nerf this and that, 1 shot brag videos... constantly. Something needs to change to create a healthier environment for players fighting against other players modes, because the damage output is far beyond "broken" when compared to player health. Increasing base health, and a few other things mentioned below,... INSIDE WVW AND SPVP ONLY... across professions will create better balance for combat AND have a positive impact on players of all skill and experience levels.)

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Comments

  • Tiny Doom.4380Tiny Doom.4380 Member ✭✭✭

    Not going to pass an opinion on 1-3 but if there was any increase to Lords' health it would need to come with a major improvement to the way they scale. It's currently far easier to kill a Keep Lord with five people than with 50 which makes no sense at all. I dread to think how long it would take a full zerg to kill a Lord with double the current HPs.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    TTK is a problem. Issue is it's related to game balance and this would just be a bandaid fix. Due to the increased in spam via expansions (defensive and offensive) TTK is pushed in both extremes. You can have 1 shot cases (more prevalent/serious in roaming) or immortality that isn't intuitive to witness.

    If it were me. Reduce non-combo healing. Re-look at combos...like buff combo-healing/buffing (not just water fields!). This is to stop spammy sustain metas while promoting the use of coordinated sustain between multiple players...leaving the opportunity for an actual counter bomb by the enemy team. Like Pre-HoT...

    Reducing cool-downs is technically a blanket nerf to the spam problem, but so many would rage. Also it'd affect thieves the least. Ironic.

    I do dislike ferocity. It's just an extra variable that needs to be balanced out (should just flat line it to 200% so power is the only concern). Alas, it's probably out of the wheel house of WvW's dev team.

    Not really for increasing NPC stuff at this time (especially with the iron guards buff). PPT stuff has the same issue where paper stuff is too fast and T3 is far too long that causes people to avoid it all together due to it being a waste of time during balanced situations.

    Holy Warriors of [Kazo] following Kazo doctrine guided by, Our Lord and Commander, Zudo in the holy Trinity of Him and his two firm glutes.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Things can get a little ridiculous in WvW these days when you stack food/stats/damage buffs. I've seen Soulbeasts autoattacking for 8k damage at 1500+ range. That's an autoattack - a quickness unblockable rapid fire (including sigil procs) can hit for ~40k in about 1s.

    That means you can literally 'pew pew' most squishy classes in the game from about 1.5x their max engagement distance.

    Of course, it's not just soulbeast. That's just an easy example. The damage has been ramped up all over. Most classes burst way harder than they used to. The game is much less about being tanky and much more about chaining hard invulns to survive damage.

    Still, it's better than condi meta :)

  • mov.1246mov.1246 Member ✭✭

    Health, vitaly and toughness is the same like at gw2 launch.
    Power and condi creep increased with the two expansions, but health remained to be the same as before.
    They put in more blocks, invulns, evades, boons, and more and more defensive machanics to professions to compensate damage creep. But health still remains the same.
    Do u see the problem?

  • Kamara.4187Kamara.4187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 9, 2018

    Everything is a trade off. Want to hit like a truck you are probably a little glassy. Last man standing? probably don't deal that much damage. There is a measure of power creep IMO but its slight. I play several classes and a few are out of balance but not all. Personally I love a long fight "when I'm up against a player that can play their class that well, but no, I don't want an epic confrontation of lore, legend, and time with every fight when I would also like to make progress on my reward tracks. Just my 2 cents.

    "Love thy enemy, for without them there would be no WvW."

  • Kamara.4187Kamara.4187 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2018

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Kamara.4187 said:
    Everything is a trade off. Want to hit like a truck you are probably a little glassy. Last man standing? probably don't deal that much damage. There is a measure of power creep IMO but its slight. I play several classes and a few are out of balance but not all. Personally I love a long fight "when I'm up against a player that can play their class that well, but no, I don't want an epic confrontation of lore, legend, and time with every fight when I would also like to make progress on my reward tracks. Just my 2 cents.

    Lol... this is the entire problem. Its not a tradeoff. Once, that was mostly true. We had less powerfull trait system with real sacrifices, somewhat less flexible gearstats, less choices of runes/sigils/foods/etc and less powerfull traits and skills. But since several years back everything has just gone off the rails. You can build for insane tankiness or insane damage true, but you can build for high damage and high tankiness at the same time as well. Stuff like the dd staff permaevade roflstomper or spellbreaker that literally blocks people to death while regening 5% hp a sec or condi scourge that despite nerf still can dump 5-7K+ damage a second on you in an instant... HoT or PoF, just as bad.

    The only time you have to make a tradeoff is if you want healing power in you build, since those gearsets are still fairly limited no matter how you combine it. And incidently, totally not worth.

    shrugs I don't disagree with you on spellbreaker or scourge. Bigger health bars for everyone would not be a one shot fix for everything, and in fact could throw off windows of opportunity for different group sizes in terms of clearing camps while fending off enemy. Slower fights also= less points, and loot being made for both the winner and loser. Addressing individual classes directly for imbalances would be a more efficient fix rather than slinging a bucket of health across the board is all I'm saying.

    "Love thy enemy, for without them there would be no WvW."

  • Exciton.8942Exciton.8942 Member ✭✭✭

    @mov.1246 said:
    Health, vitaly and toughness is the same like at gw2 launch.
    Power and condi creep increased with the two expansions, but health remained to be the same as before.
    They put in more blocks, invulns, evades, boons, and more and more defensive machanics to professions to compensate damage creep. But health still remains the same.
    Do u see the problem?

    Pretty much this. In addition to more defensive mechanics, there is also much easier healing in the game.

    Damage is super high to kill people quickly.

    However at the same time, if burst damage were not high enough, it would never break the healing and defensive CD cycle. Bunker would reign supreme.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 10, 2018

    @GDchiaScrub.3241 said:
    If it were me. Reduce non-combo healing. Re-look at combos...like buff combo-healing/buffing (not just water fields!). This is to stop spammy sustain metas while promoting the use of coordinated sustain between multiple players...leaving the opportunity for an actual counter bomb by the enemy team. Like Pre-HoT...

    i really miss this one, back then we got to work together to heal us up - now we just have classes that do this for us on their own. there is more counterplay to avoiding a group to heal up with combos, then having to pick out every single supporter one by one. i do think combos should be me important for group fights while reduce individual AoE support/damage/cc. i know with current weak combos and everything being a combo field is an issue. maybe make skills not apply a combo field unless you hold a certain key while casting it so you can organize it better andgive us more powerful combos . maybe even chain combos like when you blast a fire field 5 times it becomes a lava field, that is else not available, with better combos etc.

    for overall TTK pretty much what apharma said - would need to tone down everything.

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I feel like stacking multipliers with high glassy builds is part of the issue.
    Less traits, utilities and consumables need to grant a flat +x% bonus to anything and instead grant a flat number. Moreover the x->y stat bonuses need to go and instead be flat numbers.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was viable.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    POwer creep helps bad players to casual players who dont care to understand how stuff works, somewhat efficient, "balance TTK" and make builds sacrifice one thing for another i feel that is completell the oposite Anet wants, that would make game to difficult for most players, since most want results w/o understand what is happening.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:
    Things can get a little ridiculous in WvW these days when you stack food/stats/damage buffs. I've seen Soulbeasts autoattacking for 8k damage at 1500+ range. That's an autoattack - a quickness unblockable rapid fire (including sigil procs) can hit for ~40k in about 1s.

    That means you can literally 'pew pew' most squishy classes in the game from about 1.5x their max engagement distance.

    Of course, it's not just soulbeast. That's just an easy example. The damage has been ramped up all over. Most classes burst way harder than they used to. The game is much less about being tanky and much more about chaining hard invulns to survive damage.

    Still, it's better than condi meta :)

    Sounds like a great way to kill a scourge.... lol. Too bad players can't be bothered (or dare be seen) on the ranger class... lol

    Aside from that, I like the changes. I'll throw my 2 cents in as well at some other changes:

    • TTCC (Increase time in between CC's), add in a 2 second cool down in between CC's so a player simply can't be locked down or knocked around like a ping pong ball
    • Change how base movement speed works: Medium armor classes remain the same speed as now. Heavy armor classes move 33% slower, and light armor move 33% quicker.
    • Have the amount of siege placed in a structure based on it's Tier. Tier 1 = 1 piece of siege, Tier 2 = 2, and Tier 3 = 3, then done, that's the max
    • Put a new trap in the game that blocks siege deployment, but make the trigger AoE something like 2000, so any player in that range when the trap goes off, blocks siege deployment for say 15 min. I'd also go as far as to say, siege cannot be traded in between players when siege deployment is blocked
  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 11, 2018

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @coro.3176 said:
    Things can get a little ridiculous in WvW these days when you stack food/stats/damage buffs. I've seen Soulbeasts autoattacking for 8k damage at 1500+ range. That's an autoattack - a quickness unblockable rapid fire (including sigil procs) can hit for ~40k in about 1s.

    That means you can literally 'pew pew' most squishy classes in the game from about 1.5x their max engagement distance.

    Of course, it's not just soulbeast. That's just an easy example. The damage has been ramped up all over. Most classes burst way harder than they used to. The game is much less about being tanky and much more about chaining hard invulns to survive damage.

    Still, it's better than condi meta :)

    Sounds like a great way to kill a scourge.... lol. Too bad players can't be bothered (or dare be seen) on the ranger class... lol

    Aside from that, I like the changes. I'll throw my 2 cents in as well at some other changes:

    • TTCC (Increase time in between CC's), add in a 2 second cool down in between CC's so a player simply can't be locked down or knocked around like a ping pong ball
    • Change how base movement speed works: Medium armor classes remain the same speed as now. Heavy armor classes move 33% slower, and light armor move 33% quicker.
    • Have the amount of siege placed in a structure based on it's Tier. Tier 1 = 1 piece of siege, Tier 2 = 2, and Tier 3 = 3, then done, that's the max
    • Put a new trap in the game that blocks siege deployment, but make the trigger AoE something like 2000, so any player in that range when the trap goes off, blocks siege deployment for say 15 min. I'd also go as far as to say, siege cannot be traded in between players when siege deployment is blocked

    one issue with 1-3 siege per object is that players would argue alot wich siege would be the one to be placed on the limited slots and where. if i plant lets at the palace on rbl northwest wall an AC cause my opponents attack there, they move to northwall next to the gate. so i place another AC there. then they move to west gate i plant a ballista above, so they move to south and no know if they dont touch those 3, i wont be able to build anything at inner - not that they would even mind 1-3 siege shooting at them anyway.
    basically there are too many sides you can attack from to limit it this low, you can also not salvage your own siege so you can place it somewhere else. would you also be limited to 1-3 offensive siege per same object? or can you move into my SMC and build in there 10 AC to ensure my zerg wont run in to keep you from taking it?

    Edit: anyway this is not really the topic, should open another thread to discuss this.

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2018

    As a Holosmith I feel conflicted on this issue. I myself am capable of bursting people to 0 HP in a good amount of time. Meanwhile, people can do the same to me*. The end result is balance, but it may feel unsatisfying.

    On my way from Godslore to Ascension Bay, I need to be weary of daredevils, that can down me near instantly. If I can avoid their initial attack, though, they are confused and I can burst them to zero instead. Same with power Mesmers. Two enter the duel, one leaves it alive. The loser has either been shattered or enlightened.
    Sometimes we both land on our backs, the fight turns awkward, but the duel continues 'till one of us has to use the waypoint.

    In groups, this is actually interesting, because the size advantage of your group can be negated by a decisive strike. Our group (blue) managed to capture a red tower, because a green group had already broken in. They did the work for us, breached the gate, killed the Lord of that tower, all that was left to do for them was to claim the objective. But my group of four overwhelmed their group of six, because we caught them with all their cooldowns blown.
    In a way, the TTK reminds me of CS:GO. (It feels weird, but not unpleasant.)

    Unfortunately, that dynamic doesn't work when I am confronted with someone who isn't as glassy as I am. Then it looks something like this:

    Warrior: Taking damage, 50%, Immune, Immune, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, full health now because 5 people won't stop attacking the bubble, oh wait we don't know when he's using full counter because it always shows.

    This is, of course, not limited to warriors, the poster just managed to evoke a particular mental image. I have seen groups of glassies fail, because they focused our tank, who just didn't care, while we downed them one by one.
    I have seen my group go down to a single bunker, becuase our damage was mitigated.

    The current TTK leads to a quick resolution, merciless fights, immovable object clash with (not so) unstoppable forces. And I'd be completely fine with it, if not for one thing:

    It becomes very hard to actually gauge your opponent.

    When the differece between strong opponent or "merely" good opponent is whether they kill me in 0.75 seconds or 1 seconds, that doesn't tell me anything about the fight, or the opponent.
    Likewise, when the difference between a weak and a feeble opponent becomes impercievable, it doesn't feel like the rush of battle.
    I guess half the time we feel like Saitama, one punching our enemies, only to be brought back to reality when they do the same to us. Well that and the occasional bunker, who feels like he's swatting glassy flies, rather than fighting dangerous opponents.

    *Pew Pew classes can also oneshot themselves, when they get a face full of Magnetic Shield.

  • problem is every xpac ppl do more damage but we dont gain more hitpoint by xpac #5 u dont even need to press any key enemy will just die walking close to u

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This is a massive, massive can of worms y'all ask to have opened

    Could an acro teef even be killed with double hp?

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • lol...
    how about, you know... addressing the cause of the problem? damage multipliers (both on weapon skills and traits/runes/sigils stacking).

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2018

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Seems like there's some overtures to increasing TTK in PvP and WvW and ANet is making sure PvP and WvW balance is close. Have to see how it goes, disappointed to see buffs to some skills but hopefully we will see more nerfs over the months than buffs.

    Link for reading.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/409804#Comment_409804

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2018

    @Mysteriax.6049 said:
    Definitely in support of seeing a base health increase in WvW to counter power creep.

    Yes, and maybe someone, like our awesome dev @Ben Phongluangtham.1065, could get the team to talk about this thread!

    There are a number of crazy things, and crazy damage numbers, going on in WvW, but this is just one simple example of the crazy that players face...

    I feel the dev team can keep this crazy type of stuff in wvw, but re-evaluating some other elements (mentioned in the op) would be healthy for players of all skill and experience levels.

    All we can do is dream for a better tomorrow in wvw, Mysteriax, and good old Ben may be our only hope!

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can see how this can be an issue in zergs, but for roaming the fights can already last too long on occasion. If a 1v1 lasts longer than a couple of minutes it's a lot faster to just die and run back anyway, right . . ?

  • Tiawal.2351Tiawal.2351 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    FOR WvW ONLY, suggestions to increase the Time To Kill (TTK) and help make battles more hard fought

    1- Increase base Health of professions. 30k for Ele, Guard and Thief. 35k for Engi, Mes, Ranger and Rev. 40k for Necro and War.

    2- Decrease all weapon and slot skill cool-downs by 50% to help maintain the fast paced skill decision making combat.

    3- Reduce critical hit modifiers by 25%.

    4- Double the health and damage output of NPC sentries, guards and lords.

    5- Increase siege damage on players by 25%.

    I agree that the "time to kill" should be increased for WvW, but by how much, that's always subjective and controversial: some likes it to one-shoot or end it swift, while others like it to last a while, so both sides had enough time to react and isn't a matter of latency only, but a deep knowledge of the game and a level of mastery. Anet must find a good middle ground: allow swift ends, but always balance it with extreme risk - if the attack fails, no get away & reset, and if that isn't possible, then don't allow fast kills.

    There is a need to increase base health with about 30%, more or less, because the damage increase from ascended and expansion content.

    Still, simple solutions are easier to implement and further adjust, without creating a mess that always makes more people leave, since always someone will be upset because of a change. Instead of the above, I propose something like this:
    1. increase base health in WvW with 20-40%
    2. reduce damage of hard hitting skills by 50% or even 66%, but reduce cooldown & resource involved (rev for example) by about the same amount

    I would be against change to crit modifiers, without similar adjustment to condi damage as well - but both of these are very sensitive and controversial issues, so better avoid going there.
    Also siege damage is already way too high vs. glass builds, should be adjusted to ignore armor and deal a percent of health damage instead, so can be properly balanced to hit hard enough, but not kill in 1-2 shots, while barely doing damage to others.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:
    30k+ backstabs in permastealth SA with absolutely zero risk lol.

    Like... this was so easy not to screw up and somehow they still managed to lol.

    Inb4 backstab nerfed next patch in the wake of D/P stealth-camping Deadeye.

    ...Maybe time for the team to consider the suggested changes in the op for wvw (and spvp too)... Just using that 1 quote, but there are extreme damage numbers floating around, and there needs to be some counter-balancing factors. Think these global changes would be less resource intensive, but effective.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    It would be boring if nobody died when it’s zerg vs zerg. They need to rebalance everything but that would probably take too much work at this point.

    Imo most annoying thing in WvW is getting blown up or nearly blown up 100-0 from someone in stealth/invis...

  • TheBravery.9615TheBravery.9615 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Giving an individual player the build tools to kill another player with 1 hit, or even in a few seconds with combos, is not healthy for this mode... This low TTK issue is also magnified when you have large numbers of players facing off against other large numbers of players too... So I’d like to present a few, FOR WvW ONLY, suggestions to increase the Time To Kill (TTK) and help make battles more hard fought, with more give and take to them. This will not screw over PvE or SPvP because, as I typed, it's FOR WvW ONLY.

    1- Increase base Health of professions. 30k for Ele, Guard and Thief. 35k for Engi, Mes, Ranger and Rev. 40k for Necro and War.

    2- Decrease all weapon and slot skill cool-downs by 50% to help maintain the fast paced skill decision making combat.

    3- Reduce critical hit modifiers by 25%.

    4- Double the health and damage output of NPC sentries, guards and lords.

    5- Increase siege damage on players by 25%.

    This would only make condi viable in wvw

    no.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @apharma.3741 said:
    I agree the Time To Kill needs to go up but not on how to do it, the healing from skills/traits needs to go down about 20%, the cool downs of defensive skills need to go up by about 20% and damage right across the board needs to go down by about 20%.

    Things I have had happen today:
    Rev: 8k Coalescence of Ruin my day at 0 range for 8k, 16k (all my health) at max range. 5k Auto. 9k precision strike which is spammable. 5k phase traversal which is now unblockable.
    Thief: 2.6k steal into 8k Larcenous Strike, repeatedly. 4-6k auto as a single hit from the auto.
    Mesmer: 6k Mind Wrack x2 with another 2.5-2.7k x3 Mirror Blade and follow up 3.5k Mindstab and I can do this a lot more now. 3-4k burn ticks from stealth. Burst 20 confusion onto someone through repeated blind and CoF.
    Necro: 6 of them just filling every inch of space near them with pulsing AoE and corrupts where you get 14 torment if you're not running away fast enough.
    Guardian: 100%, 20%, 100% again, 30% oh no wait 100% again.
    Warrior: Taking damage, 50%, Immune, Immune, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, full health now because 5 people won't stop attacking the bubble, oh wait we don't know when he's using full counter because it always shows.
    Engineer: 7 stacks of burn, oh sheee, cleanse and off he rocket boots into the distance. Holoforge, bam, 6k, 5k, 4k, AoE bam bam bam flashy lights and wooooosh rocket boots.
    Druid: Seriously are they all minstrels now because I crit these for 2k on full zerk glass mesmer as above and they just jump around stealthing and running away while letting the pet do the work.

    All this is just some examples of the silly stuff I run into or in the case of mesmer what I can do. Damage is far too high and the problems started with the HoT creep but the problem has also had it's insidious side. ANet have been buffing weapons and skills people don't use, sure some were needed (looking at you signet of water) but there's creep happening in areas where they were fine it's just something better came along in the expansion replacing it entirely.

    At the same time we got minstrels giving insane healing the game wasn't designed to have, we have skills that just flat heal people for insane amounts and high amounts of defensive skills or high uptime of defensive buffs.

    Remember when the mark of a good player was that they knew what combo fields were and how to use them? Now I barely see anyone using them, you have to go to PvP to see that kind of stuff and only really from a top streamer.

    Oh good list. I do think that overall damage output needs to be nerfed harder than 20%, and I also think boon spam needs to be nerfed into the ground.

    The best way to go about this is to start reducing the amount of things that skills and traits do. A skill might deal reasonable damage, but if it also dazes opponents, grants you a strong boon, and is on short CD then its still vastly overperforming.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

    It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

    I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

    @apharma.3741 +1

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

    It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

    I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

    @apharma.3741 +1

    the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.
    if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybe
    do you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:

    @MUDse.7623 said:

    @joneirikb.7506 said:
    Agree with those that say we should rather look at reducing the power creep of the elite-spez etc, rather than messing with all the other stats.

    I'm imaging that stopping making damage modifiers stack, and only use the highest one would be an interesting change. Though I could be wrong.

    would result in a very dull bunker meta and only condition damage in offensive builds.

    It wouldn't be the only change, but the general idea would be to stop damage buffs from stacking, rather increase each damage buff, and make it more about managing upkeeps of them rather than stacking on top of each others. That way ANet could (if they wanted to) keep the power creep more in check, by having a max damage +X% and restrict the uptime. (Unfortunately I'm not good enough to be able to pull good numbers from my head, so I won't try)

    I'd also like to see just about everything being reduced a bit in general, the game is on steroids compared to before HOT.

    @apharma.3741 +1

    the problem is we need stacked damage to be able to perform burst combos able to take down bunkers. beause sustained damage is lower then sutained healing when fighting a bunker with tons of damage mitigation /boons etc. if you just remove stacking from direct damage we would deal tons of more damage with conditions.
    if there would be alot less healing and less boons then maybe
    do you remember good times when blasting fields was^actually good for healing? sure there was alot less damage around, but now there is so much healing no one would bother with a water field.

    Probably didn't word myself very well, but basically we agree. I'd like to see all healing lowered, defensive skills on longer cooldowns, most attacks on lower cooldowns and/or with lower damage. Including having a bit less condition damage (and much less spammable). Etc.

    In short: like it was in the first few years of GW2 before HOT came and put everything on stereoids because of "powercreep". The part with making damage bonuses non-stackable is just another thing to put on top of that.

    Heck, I'd also love to see them taking more stats away from the weapon/armor/trinkets, and put more into the core stats, so we can't "extreme" stats as much as we can right now. Which would restrict a good bit of the worst bunkering and one-shotting as well.

    Atm this game feels like playing Ikaruga, pick white or black, and get one-shot by the other, with scourge bullet hell.

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: Planescape Torment, Divinity Original Sin 2, Zelda BotW

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 21, 2018

    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.

    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

  • I mean, the idea behind the thread is nice, but that NECRO THOUGH. lol May

  • https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/60999/why-not-make-damage-multipliers-additive-instead-of-multiplicative#latest

    Even easier solution that also limits future power creep and gives devs a better tool for balancing

  • Damage has crept up too high, but this is also because sustain is also stupidly high. Case in point: Firebrand.

    Sometimes I swear a health bar doesn't even mean anything anymore in WvW, since you can get nuked for at least half in single attacks, and then healed all the way back up in a matter of moments. Bunkers are too tough to crack, glass does too much damage, and bruisers get neither for splitting their stats.

    This is compounded when you start increasing the number of players. This is why we have Spellbreaker, because without Spellbreaker bubble, Firebrand/Firebrand parties or Firebrand/Scrapper parties will be nigh indestructible unless you greatly outnumber/outskill the opponent.

    My solution for increasing TTK but avoiding unkillable zerg balls is to:
    A) Reduce spike damage. Lets lower those damage ratios or just add a global damage reduction in WvW.
    B) Diminishing returns on Healing. If you don't break combat, incoming healing is less effective on you. Your personal healing skill (but not traits) will diminish as well, but more slowly (to avoid bunker vs bunker stalemates, eventually no one will heal). This healing reduction will occur as you are healed. The penalty will recover out of combat,
    C) Increase base health of all classes, and increase the value of vitality. Since healing reduces as a battle rages on, vitality is more important as it extends your timer.
    D) Using mobility skills away from enemies or staying in stealth too long during combat increases your healing penalty. Running away or taken less risk gets penalized. Being an in fighter leads to more continued sustain.
    E) Return Deep Wound as a stacking condition, as a away to counter the increased vitality through sustained attacks. (https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Deep_Wound)

  • Bunker meta in PvP after HoT launched? Please do not bring this back. Of all the things that need attention, this would be way down the list. Not every build is meant to have no counter, likewise fights that never resolve are boring as hell.

  • Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

    Can you explain why?

    We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

    1. Make damage multipliers additive
    2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
    3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
    4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
    5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp
  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    The idea came from 6 years of ongoing damage QQ, skill splits, global buff mechanics and the fact that CU will have the right approach to pvp combat... " we are not over fond of insta-gibbing. We want battles to be hard fought, with plenty of give and take. We will seek that sweet spot somewhere between ‘omg die already!’ and POOF insta-dead."...

    Also, for reference...

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Upcoming-Changes-to-Skills

    “A message from the PvP Team:

    Hey all,

    We have a number of skill splits (and some global changes) that will be accompanying the launch of Season 5 next week. Read on to see what’s in store for December 13.
    Over the past few releases the PvP team has been working closely with the Skills team to implement some PvP-only skill splits. Moving forward the PvP team will have more opportunity to make these skill splits as we see fit. It’s important to understand that skill splits should not change the core functionality of a skill. Players should be able to use a skill in PvE and have it do relatively the same thing in PvP, though it may be more or less effective depending on the game mode. This means that when we are looking to split out a skill, the changes are limited to the following areas:

    • Recharge
    • Damage multipliers
    • Healing multipliers
    • Number of conditions/boons applied
    • Duration of conditions/boons applied
    • Skill cost (energy and initiative)

    A lot can be done with these knobs, but there still will be cases where we identify a problem skill or trait that we feel cannot be addressed without a functional change. In these cases, we are continuing to work closely with the Skills team to find a solution that makes the most sense as a global change.”

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

    Can you explain why?

    We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

    1. Make damage multipliers additive
    2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
    3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
    4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
    5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

    Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

    This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

    It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

    I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

    Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

    Can you explain why?

    We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

    1. Make damage multipliers additive
    2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
    3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
    4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
    5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

    Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

    This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

    It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

    I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

    Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

    I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

    Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

    This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

  • @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

    Can you explain why?

    We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

    1. Make damage multipliers additive
    2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
    3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
    4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
    5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

    Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

    This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

    It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

    I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

    Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

    I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

    Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

    This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

    You quoted my post dealing with sweeping changes for all classes, that was talking about HP and the OP and asked me to explain, I did. You said when you quoted me that defense can not be lowered until offense is as well, which is not true, you then went on to suggest MORE sweeping changes. As I already said, some specific over performing builds might need to be looked at and I also said that trait lines that allow the use of all dmg multipliers in a single build should be looked at. The problem with most of those builds being that the base class gives up little in defense when traiting these, the ones that give up a lot to get that sort of dmg however are fine for the most part, as its a very high risk high reward play.

    Sweeping changes however does nothing to fix those problems, and generates only more.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • geist.4126geist.4126 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm not all against the ops idea but I see a lot more problems coming with a change like this. If you put on more hp, you need to change the boon/condition system with it. In the current state of the game even necros have issues corrupting the number of boons on "some" targets. More health in combination with the existing boon means a lot of really bad bunker options which can't be countered - especially not after conditions got the nerfbat.
    In smallscale this is a problem right now and in zergs it is an ongoing race between firebrand/chrono/rev vs. necro/boonstrips . I prefer having longer fights where you have to make "good" decisions to win, but with the actual meta and no balancing to boon application/stripping and a buff for many of the condi builds this will just shift the meta from oneshot to "dancing around each other for ours".

  • @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

    Can you explain why?

    We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

    1. Make damage multipliers additive
    2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
    3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
    4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
    5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

    Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

    This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

    It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

    I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

    Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

    I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

    Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

    This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

    You quoted my post dealing with sweeping changes for all classes, that was talking about HP and the OP and asked me to explain, I did. You said when you quoted me that defense can not be lowered until offense is as well, which is not true, you then went on to suggest MORE sweeping changes. As I already said, some specific over performing builds might need to be looked at and I also said that trait lines that allow the use of all dmg multipliers in a single build should be looked at. The problem with most of those builds being that the base class gives up little in defense when traiting these, the ones that give up a lot to get that sort of dmg however are fine for the most part, as its a very high risk high reward play.

    Sweeping changes however does nothing to fix those problems, and generates only more.

    Ahhh sorry for the misunderstanding, the post I quoted doesn't mention hp at all though? Think I was just in the quote chain.

    If they decrease defense without decreasing offense, the game becomes full of one shots. Both need to go down. By making multipliers additive it reduces all outliers equally with minimal impact on bruisers, and limits further power creep down the road.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

    @RisenHowl.2419 said:

    @TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:
    Adding across the board changes like this or suggesting it shows how few people understand the problem or how to deal with it, they have NO idea this would break the game worse than it is now. As it stands you have builds that exist that you have to be full zerk to even kill, add in more HP and less crit/dmg and the only way you are going to kill those builds are in a 3vs1. Sweeping changes are a BAD idea when you are wanting to tame a few over performing builds.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    The video I'm posting is of thief, but it is merely to highlight damage output vs a player's health... There are issues for players and devs across the board that could be alleviated by increasing player health... Please strongly consider making some positive changes by working on known issues that repel players from this mode, and cause a lot of unnecessary controversy for the player base.


    I also considered posting threads of complaints about damage output from power and condition builds, but I don't think I need to... Anyone who has followed the forums over 6 years knows the complaints about damage are ongoing, and something needs to be done.

    TY

    Except people who don't know classes, builds or how to play might think this is crazy, but its not. The HP pool of almost all of those people they killed were all zerk or close to it, that is the risk you play being high dmg, and look at his own HP pool, he got hit once and almost died. another thing to notice is most if not all looked like zerglings, not a dodge to be had, hell, he was dropping smoke field and stacking stealth RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. they still just ran along, a number of them who were not full zerk that were not one hit did nothing, they just kept running in a straight line, no dodging, didn't attack, no defensive skills or blocks or anything, might as well have been AFK players. He was picking targets well also, solo, or already in combat with someone else, not fighting specific classes etc. What is funny is that most of the classes he was killing also have access to stealth, engine, mes, DE etc and him with 14k HP would also be one shot. I will bet you he also has 4 times as much video of him being killed as well.

    What you are seeing is players who are not aware, vs someone who knows their class/build. Now, not saying stealth has not been broken, and attacks from stealth that deal that much might need to be looked at, but that is only the tip of the issue, and just about every class is able to do something like this to other zerk classes. I was told I was being reported as a cheater because I 4vs1 a group and won, when really they were just face roll players, I am far from the best, so that is saying something.

    So you don't think reducing power creep, for both damage and defense, would be healthy for the game?

    Can you explain why?

    We can't reduce defense until we reduce offense.

    1. Make damage multipliers additive
    2. Reduce endurance regen traits such as adrenal implant by 20%
    3. Reduce all invulns durations by 1s
    4. Double all damage modifiers in pve
    5. Consider removing rune of adventure and energy sigil from pvp

    Yes, yes you can reduce them, and you can buff offense. The problem is people are asking for sweeping changes, when the problems are over performing builds of given classes, and is not a simple "give everyone a huge HP buff", as that ignores the flip side of the "one shot" builds, you then end up with builds that are almost unkillable in the current meta, give them another 15-20k HP and you can forget it, it would ruin any sort of small scale, as the build would not be killable with just the HP boost, no less the crit dmg nerf AND adding a boost to personal healing skills. This is just LAZY, and will not work. If you have issues with the game or power creep (again, as I said, I agree there is), but point out specifics and how to fix them, not sweeping changes that would only make things worse.

    This thread sounds like a turn WvW into a PvE match, skills don't do much dmg, so missing a dodge or block etc etc doesn't matter to much and OOHH!! Give us even more HP so planning rotations and bursts matter even less, you know what, let us just face tank everything please!

    It would push things even more to condi, as its the only thing not nerfed dmg wise in the OP.

    I mean THINK about it for a second, a ranger/SB etc with 35k BASE HP......BASE. Running close to 100% protection uptime, two invulnerable skills etc. And that would not even be the worse offender and can only think of the new builds that would be made. a BASE 40k Necro with barrier uptime, LOL, good luck, because the OP just buffed healing skills as well, so barrier becomes even more OP and without condi nerf as well, and the 50% reduction in skill CD time, I honestly don't think people know anything about other classes or builds before they suggest stuff like this.

    Now could SOME classes have a rework on base HP? Or some specific classes be changed to where you can't trait all the dmg modifiers into a single build? Sure, but it is a complex issue and no one would be severed well by the sweeping HP creep suggested in the OP.

    I never suggested a hp increase? You have the reasons pretty well laid out here.

    Damage multipliers are currently multiplicativewith each other, which is why some classes can pull off those sweet 25k one shots from stealth. By making them additive instead, it reduces top end builds by 20-40%. By reducing invuln frames through hitting endurance regen, we stop insane bunker builds.

    This also makes balance much easier for the devs as they don't have to work around extreme outliers. This allows defense to be toned down as well.

    You quoted my post dealing with sweeping changes for all classes, that was talking about HP and the OP and asked me to explain, I did. You said when you quoted me that defense can not be lowered until offense is as well, which is not true, you then went on to suggest MORE sweeping changes. As I already said, some specific over performing builds might need to be looked at and I also said that trait lines that allow the use of all dmg multipliers in a single build should be looked at. The problem with most of those builds being that the base class gives up little in defense when traiting these, the ones that give up a lot to get that sort of dmg however are fine for the most part, as its a very high risk high reward play.

    Sweeping changes however does nothing to fix those problems, and generates only more.

    Ahhh sorry for the misunderstanding, the post I quoted doesn't mention hp at all though? Think I was just in the quote chain.

    If they decrease defense without decreasing offense, the game becomes full of one shots. Both need to go down. By making multipliers additive it reduces all outliers equally with minimal impact on bruisers, and limits further power creep down the road.

    In addition to changing modifiers from multiplicative to additive I would want to see base HP increased for the low-hp professions to 15k, and the medium-hp professions to 17k.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Victory.2879Victory.2879 Member ✭✭✭

    A really easy change would be to reduce the maximum damage any one skill can cause to 25% of the target's HP pool. It's not fun being hit for 10-14k on a staff tempest with 3k armor (2k toughness) when your total health is 17k or so. Then rework skills and buffs and debuffs and condi spam around this new maximum.

    Now that almost every hit received is crit damage, fix the multipliers.

    The current state of the game isn't much fun unless you like facerolling across your keyboard as a condi shade spam necro or a CoR or a vaulter.

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