Account suspension discussion [merged] - Page 33 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Account suspension discussion [merged]

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  • Shikigami.4013Shikigami.4013 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Shikigami.4013 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Anthony.7630 said:
    Your worried about a mmo video game called guild wars 2 is spying on your computer ?
    Spying is everywhere man. Cortana from windows 10 spies on you. So does avast antivirus and other anti viruse softwares. Also google chrome tracks all your search engines on your android or your computers.

    Android phones are not any better than iphones. Both apple and google / and even amazon take all your information and spy on you.

    Also email accounts track your messages and know what you're doing sending and searching / buying.

    The best way to be untrackable is to move to africa and use no technologies and stay away from governments and authorities. Oh and your ID tag for being a citizen tracks you.

    That's what is happening in 2018. The modernization and global collection / tracking of human data.

    And this is good and we should celebrate that a game developer do this, because...?

    There is a lot of bad things happening in the world. I would prefer that a game company avoid doing harm when there is no reason to do it and a very easy solution to do harm reduction. Do not store data that is not related to the cheat tools. Delete it any unrelated data that got caught by the spyware code. Reassure your players that information won't be suddenly leaked because the data is permanently deleted.

    They don't even know who you are. How would they leak anything that could harm you if they have no personal info about you anyway? All purchases are handled by DigitalRiver, which is a company that is not connected to ArenaNet in any other way than handling the commercial transactions for them. ArenaNet knows that you are Belorn.2659 and an email address you used to sign up (which is probably hosted anonymously because people concerned that much about their privacy would likely not use an email that is publicly tied to their realworld identity). When you purchase something, DigitalRiver handles your data and just notifies ArenaNet in an automated process if the payment was successful or not. They do not send your 20 Dollar to ArenaNet with a note attached saying "These 20 dollar come from John Doe, age 22, living in randomstreet 123, randomtown who used the credit card with the numer 1234-4321-1234-4321 to pay.

    Is a gameaccount name and the name of a process found running on your pc too much information for your taste so that you fear you could be "harmed" if the hypothetical fact that Belorn.2659 used a program called cheat engine on his PC in march 2018, would leak to the internet? Maybe you could tell us what exactly you are afraid of that could happen.

    If they only store the information about cheat engine and those program listed then we don't have a problem. If they are storing IP addresses along side which machine has banking software installed, or has backdoors running, or has company specific control software, then guess who would be very interesting to have that leaked so that those users can be targeted explicitly. Even better, have the email address attached so they can launch some spearfish spam emails, like those that Anet themselves accidentally clicked on a few years ago.

    Imagine that you got access to a list of all Google, Apple and Microsoft employees who happen to run gw2 on their work machine, together with their complete process list. I am sure that no such computer will have old software with know bugs in them that is just waiting to be exploited.

    So the scary scenario is this:
    Although ArenaNet never told us that they stored any hashes at all after matching them to their list, you consider the possibility that they not only stored the process hashes that were found to match one of the 5 processes they were looking for, but all the process hashes. Furthermore, they may have stored your IP address along with it, for whatever reason. Not ending there, they not just stored that data where it is being used for the purpose it was collected for, but added all the data to the data they already had about you, so that in case of a leak it would be ensured that the malicious people get as much data about you as possible.

    Following the leak, the malicious user would then either find a "backdoor" on your PC, or an exploitable piece of software , neither of which you were previously aware of although you are concerned about privacy and security. Or they would send you a phishing email, that you would fall for and get scammed out of all the money you had on your bank account because they knew what banking software you were using and you are unable to tell a phishing mail from a real one.

    Sorry, but that sounds like a paranoid person to me. It seems about as likely as getting hit by a meteorite. Wish you the best of luck with your data.

    PS: After writing I had the idea that you may not be concerned just for yourself but for random other people. Which would be a nice gesture and make the whole thing slightly less unlikely. Although lots of people have a dynamic IP that changes each time they reconnect to their ISP or restart their router. But I will leave it at this now.

    YouTube “L2villagejester”.
    People using belittling wording like whining/qqing" are not taken seriously by me
    Same for people posting only to tell others not to post (“deal with it”-posts)

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    We know that they sent the whole process list to their servers, and they have not said anything about what they did with the collected data. If its gone it would be as easy as tweet it out that only the hash of the 5 processes are stored. Would not even take them 5 second to do so.

    If we find this so unbelievable that it can be exploited then let have some developer post their process list here on the forum. If its just a meteorite risk then no reason not to. Be brave and go on and post it! It is perfectly safe! No harm can happen if the developers of this game to publish a list of all the processes running on their machine, and they don't even need to post their IP address or email.

  • @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

  • kharmin.7683kharmin.7683 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

    It's also why one does the "custom" install of Win10 so that you can turn all of that stuff off.

    I am a very casual player.
    Very.
    Casual.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    Yep...
    But the thing is, nobody usually care about that. Hence why this sudden outrage about data leak is hilarious, a bit like the outrage about mounts was ridiculous, having had black lion keys for ages in game with people barely complaining.

    A hack resulting of a leak would likely cause a lot more damage with... I don't know... text logs from in game? personal info such as irl name? email?

  • @kharmin.7683 said:

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

    It's also why one does the "custom" install of Win10 so that you can turn all of that stuff off.

    Yeah, there's also some big differences between how MS does it and how Anet does it. The biggest being the fact that MS freaking tells you they're doing it and you can opt out. It's not even like it's behind a million pages of legal jargon! It's right there in the installation!

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

    You could argue that a self respecting user wouldn't run a program that can potentially modify in game memory for a online game. Doesn't mean they won't do it, same goes with cleaning your OS (and automatic forced updates makes it a bit tedious anyway), or not using google, or not using facebook... etc.

    And yes, two wrongs don't make a right, but this becomes interesting when privacy concerns are only brought up when a company is trying to get rid of cheaters, with suddenly some people getting outraged by how little their privacy matters on the internet.

  • edited April 15, 2018

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

    You could argue that a self respecting user wouldn't run a program that can potentially modify in game memory for a online game. Doesn't mean they won't do it, same goes with cleaning your OS (and automatic forced updates makes it a bit tedious anyway), or not using google, or not using facebook... etc.

    And yes, two wrongs don't make a right, but this becomes interesting when privacy concerns are only brought up when a company is trying to get rid of cheaters, with suddenly some people getting outraged by how little their privacy matters on the internet.

    Privacy concerns are an incredibly hot button issue right now, and have been bubbling up for a while. The topic of digital privacy was going to blow up sooner than later, and it's a bit silly to say it's only Anet catching flak for it when Mark Zuckerberg was testifying in front of congress over digital privacy concerns a week ago.

    WRT the cheating thing, the ends don't justify the means. Even if all 1500 people banned are 100% legit, I'm still not okay with Anet putting kitten malware on my computer, recording data about my machine and sending it back to their server to do who knows what with. If they can't think of any better way to ban cheaters than that, then they need to rethink who they have doing this.

  • Arioch.4810Arioch.4810 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet exercised the option guaranteed to them via end user licence agreement.
    Having in mind toxic clouds lingering over PvP and WvW in last couple of months, this was the proper, well timed, and necessary action, to show the community that steps are taken to weed out persons playing with unintended advantages. I guess we're all aware of a bunch of videos/screenshots, tickets and complaints lingering around, a lot of that is also shared in forums? As someone who plays PvP and WvW i welcome stricter monitoring and steps by Anet.

    Since there's a parallel now being drawn with other MMO's monitoring of players, ill just parse my FB comment here:

    "Here's my take on the method used by Anet and reasoning behind it: While they could have went with something analog to Blizzard's Warden, ie only look for processes that are already known to be associated with cheating, looking for all processes on ours (players) machines active while playing GW2 gives them the chance to, for once, be on equal footing with persons creating cheat software: Now they got to see what processes known cheaters had running while playing, that helps a ton with catching new wave of cheats in development. There was a lot of data - screenshots, yt videos, of player's characters doing, well, let's say - some odd things? It's trivial to cross-reference complaints by players made via tickets and forums with information obtained in march, and look what exactly cheater X uses.

    Since it's allowed by EULA, as long as data is handled in resonable manner, I'm okay ANet's actions."

    So, not only did they ban a lot of players that have some interesting software on their machines, software that is in violation of EULA as interpreted by company providing service, they also used this opportunity to look at what exactly player X is having in active processes while running at 160% speed - how is that exactly a bad thing for any of us players?

  • Tasida.4085Tasida.4085 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    I stand by Anet all the way in this. People agreed with the EULA and Anet has a right to take back control of their game. Hopefully after 6 months these people will have learned their lesson. GO GO Anet.

    (NOBL) rocking GW's since 2005, still rocking Sorrow's Furnace :P

  • @ratche.6204 said:

    @BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372 said:

    @ratche.6204 said:

    @Nezekan.2671 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Twoodi.5849 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Twoodi.5849 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Twoodi.5849 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Twoodi.5849 said:

    @Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

    @Jerks.3172 said:

    @Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

    @Jerks.3172 said:

    @Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

    @Jerks.3172 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jerks.3172 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Twoodi.5849 said:

    @Ardenwolfe.8590 said:
    If ANet was sloppy, then those players running any cheat program while playing an MMO were equally as sloppy. Either way you slice it, caught is caught and hardly makes those players innocent.

    Nobody has argued otherwise, but until after they were suspended they were not told or aware that you were not allowed to run cheat engine at the time as guild wars 2. Nobody was caught doing anything wrong because cheat engine is not inherently bad

    No, that's not even close to correct. Anyone that plays this game agrees to the terms and it's pretty clear 3rd party software is not allowed. They don't need to be told more than that; there is an expectation for a level of maturity and responsibility on the players part to understand what rules, restrictions and limits are involved when they sign up for this game service.

    You're mindset is irresponsible ... so if you aren't caught doing something, it's not wrong? I can see you have very little reason to be listened to at this point.

    If i recall how to use cheat engine, you had to inject it into a program before it can do anything. If its a program that can potentially cheat but they haven't got any evidence on the player cheating they need to just flag the account and do further investigation not ban with no remorse.

    You almost make it sound like Anet doesn't own the accounts that they took action on and need to PROVE to the player why they were banned. That's amusing to say the least.

    I mean, what further investigation do you think should be done ... have a bunch of Anet employees sit around and watch the account in question play the game and hope they cheat? You do realize that's highly impractical no? All these calls for 'further investigation' makes it sound like you think the outcome woudl be different? makes it sound like you even have a clue of what they did and didn't do ...

    Except you don't.

    It's called hiring GM's with invisible mode on and watch the suspected players. Games like WoW, and many other do this why cant Anet do it?

    Because they're busy creating content for a very hungry community desperate for it? The ironic part is I had a GM watch me solo a champion in the core game years ago before any expansion. I have no doubt players reported me for hacking because I repeatedly soloed the champion for loot.

    Exchange went like this:

    GM: How's it going?

    Me: Good. You?

    GM: Good. Mind if I watch you?

    Me: No worries. :)

    Five minutes later. . . .

    GM: Have a nice day. ;)

    But, seriously, you can't expect GMs to watch all people all the time. It's just not effective.

    This is a prime example of a GM wasting their time. I'm not saying GM should watch all players. Just players that are flagged for suspicion of hacking. They should NEVER reveal they are watching you.

    Um . . . you asked for GMs to do this, and then you say they're wasting time doing it. So . . . which one is it now? Besides, that wasn't the point of me telling you that story. :)

    I'm asking GM's to investigate flagged accounts not showing up and go "Mind if i watch you" Of course people will either log off or stop cheating completely if they had a GM show up.

    My account was flagged, the GM watched me while invisible, then he announced himself to see if my behavior would change . . . and it didn't. He did exactly what you're asking them to do. Let's not rewrite history. You asked for GMs to watch players for suspicious activity. Done and done.

    Doesn't get clearer than that as far as what you're asking.

    Yes but in this case they didn't and that is why people are complaining

    Really? You expected a nice personal greeting from a GM asking you if it would be OK for you stop cheating? Obviously, that 'personal touch' wasn't a very practical approach in this situation, so expecting it was a little silly.

    No i want ANET to do what they usually do which is investigate accounts that are flagged individually and gather evidence

    You have no idea if they didn't do that.

    Yes we do and i have quoted them many times admitting so

    1516 accounts were suspended because we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs

    That doesn't say how they did it. You simply don't know. You're whole argument for not being banned is based on the fact that you don't know the details of how people were caught. BRILLIANT! GL with that appeal. Personally I don't think that's going to get you very far because frankly, it's not very relevant. I doesn't matter. There is no due process here; this isn't an episode of 'Law and Order'.

    They have some way, people were detected, DONE.

    Yes we know this as they admitted

    1516 accounts were suspended because we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs

    ANETs customer service is usually fair in most cases and they will actually evaluate peoples accounts and look into them when they are appealing bans. Something that ANET should actually do before banning people and not ban them based on assumptions which is what people like myself are complaining about. That and the fact at first they originally said nobody would be allowed to appeal their bans something that they backtracked on.

    Nobody is asking for a free pass, people who know they are innocent just want a fair chance and to have a GM look into their accounts individually.

    Saying "well they can do what they want its their game" is not very useful and i'm not sure why fellow consumers are throwing away their rights to defend a company.

    Either way i hope you all enjoy the rest of your weekend

    I don't see how that's an 'admission' of not having data, proof or evidence of the violation. The violation is running 3rd party software ... they detected it. I'm not sure how it's more complicated than that.

    Cheat engine is NOT a cheating program despite the name, it can be used for many other things. You can create viruses with notepad, why people who had a notepad open are not banned? You can hack GW2 servers with coding programs, why are those not banned? They are even more dangerous than any cheating tool.

    Cheat engine is a modding tool for people who use it on single player games. Its free, its flexible and very easy to learn. Instead of constantly visiting sites like Nexus to get mods, and sometimes not even finding what you are looking for, you can change your game however you like. NOT A SINGLE COMPANY who produces single player games has a problem with this and none even try to protect their game against it. The most prominent use of it is probably Dragon Age Inquisition in witch people even used it to fix bugs.

    "Cheat engine is not a cheating program"

    You do realize how silly that sounds right?

    "Guild Wars" is a game in which wars between guilds don't really take place.
    You do realize how silly that sounds, right? ;)

    Actually if you know game lore, it's not really silly at all, or the same thing.

    You implied you could determine the nature of a thing by looking at the name. I gave a counter example (which would only be invalid if there were indeed wars between guilds taking place in the game - as opposed to referencing something in the lore for a time before even the events of the first game).

  • GreyWolf.8670GreyWolf.8670 Member ✭✭✭

    @Twoodi.5849 said:

    @fireanne.7682 said:
    @Kheldorn.5123
    I'd like to point out that if you want to keep pressing the "knife" metaphor, a better comparison is taking a knife on board of a plane. Does it mean you are a terrorist? No. Yet you will still not be allowed to take one.. The metaphor is not perfect (your knife can be used by another person, you will not be banned from a flight for 6 months etc.) but it is still closer to comparing the problem here to simply owning a knife.

    I personally know cheat engine can be used for non-hack related things, I used it for Dragon Age Inquisition's modding. But that is a single player game. I would not run the program while playing a multiplayer game. In fact, I do not run it at all unless I play that specific game. Why would I want to, anyway?

    Try to understand that it cannot work on a "caught me red-handed" principle here as that is virtually impossible due to privacy reasons. The result is then similar to the terrorist on a plane principle I mentioned above. If you smuggle a knife on board of a plane and you are caught, you will be punished. You don't have to be a terrorist, you do not need to have attacked anyone. The goal is to create a safe environment for everybody else you share the space, physical or virtual, with. Ultimately it comes down to no bans, or players agreeing to follow certain principles in order to create a fair enviroment for players (as for example not running software that can be used to hack the game together with the game to allow the devs to correctly detect people that use it to do so...).

    Thats the point though nobody was "caught red-handed" they didn't check in game logs or even watch the players. They just made an assumption and didn't investigate further before banning users.

    How do you know this? They were apparently investigating for weeks.

  • Ahnog.8795Ahnog.8795 Member ✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    Arena Net is not the bad guy here. Run a hack program with the game and you deserve to be banned.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

    You could argue that a self respecting user wouldn't run a program that can potentially modify in game memory for a online game. Doesn't mean they won't do it, same goes with cleaning your OS (and automatic forced updates makes it a bit tedious anyway), or not using google, or not using facebook... etc.

    And yes, two wrongs don't make a right, but this becomes interesting when privacy concerns are only brought up when a company is trying to get rid of cheaters, with suddenly some people getting outraged by how little their privacy matters on the internet.

    Privacy concerns are an incredibly hot button issue right now, and have been bubbling up for a while. The topic of digital privacy was going to blow up sooner than later, and it's a bit silly to say it's only Anet catching flak for it when Mark Zuckerberg was testifying in front of congress over digital privacy concerns a week ago.

    WRT the cheating thing, the ends don't justify the means. Even if all 1500 people banned are 100% legit, I'm still not okay with Anet putting kitten malware on my computer, recording data about my machine and sending it back to their server to do who knows what with. If they can't think of any better way to ban cheaters than that, then they need to rethink who they have doing this.

    To anyone who even mentions facebook or the congressional testimony i have 0 sympathy.
    Read the User Agreement. Facebook has been in the business of selling your profile data for as long as it's been a company.
    You know what other companies do this ?

    Literally everything owned by Alphabet Inc. You may know them by their popular companies such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitions_by_Alphabet

    Now then complain more about your "Privacy" when you willingly consent to throwing it away on a daily basis.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Nightlark.4029 said:
    Wow. You guys are really pessimistic about human nature, and very optimistic about how infallible ANet is.

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    But there are no false positives. If you cheat in one game you are prone to cheating and should be kept out of online games.
    Also the hashing is nothing to a modern CPU, so if it happens let's say every 5min or so it will cosnume like 0.01% of your CPU time.
    I just run a benchmark and my CPU can handle hashing 11.7 GB data per second of simple algorithms like MD5.
    Even the most complex algorithms my benchmark tool has still reach 1 GB of data hashed per second.

    Calculating the hash might be a relatively cheap operation for the CPU (depends how often they ran it -- some people experiencing worse performance makes me believe they did it much more frequently than 5 min, I haven't played in the past few months, and I haven't dug into the executable yet to find out how often it ran). However, it was reading the programs as they are stored on the disk, which most definitely cannot handle 11.7 GB of data per second -- SSDs can handle ~650MB/s; a laptop drive might be able to handle 80-160MB/s in a good case, but could extremely low (1MB/s) with random access of small files.

    Storage devices become faster quicker than CPU speeds increases. My NVMe SSD already has a peak read of 3.5 GB/s and a write of 2.1 GB/s and there are even faster models.
    What you are saying is the CPU might have to wait for more data from the storage to hash it, but that is a good thing in this case so it has resources left to actually run the game itself.

    Anet chose the most resource lenient way to detect these cheaters. We should be happy about it or the complains about a poorly optimized game would be even greater.

  • Zedek.8932Zedek.8932 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Anthony.3207 said:
    The most important thing is that - when you clicked accept on the terms of service - you created a legal binding with anet and in that binding it says..

    Oh, it would not be the first time the actual stance is

    Law > Terms of Service/EULA

    Even "solid" clauses can be contested in court if properly laid out. And that's good.
    Just to give you an example: DRM removal of iTunes. Against TOS/EULA, but the law allows private backup copies of your purchased media, that's why you can do it just fine despite the user accepted the TOS/EULA. Bam. Sorry, Apple.

    So while you are right, it is not necessarily the case. It's only there because...

    ...a) prosecutors won't allow any trial for minor damages (a few Euros is not worth court time)
    ...b) anyone without the right education won't know the right legal remedies and...
    ...b2) never would call a lawyer about that situation.

    But that does not mean you can't. It's like a bouncer on a discotheque. He might be in the wrong by 100%, but still - would it be worth any legal action?

    @Anthony.3207 said:
    And even if you're in Europe ....arenet net made special laws for Europe so they wouldn't get in trouble.

    Anet can't make laws. If every company could make laws to "not get in trouble", we could close all courts.

    Excelsior, my name is Zedexx; Asuran Deadeye and assassin.
    The Hunter / 2x Darksteel Pistols / 2x Whisper's Secret Daggers and my Springer. That's all I need and trust.
    "We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!"

  • Tanith.5264Tanith.5264 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm seeing the word "spyware" getting thrown around a lot regarding this situation. Is there any actual evidence that "spyware" was used against these players, or are we all just having a case of the tinfoil tics due to the word appearing in the news so much?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zedek.8932 said:

    @Anthony.3207 said:
    The most important thing is that - when you clicked accept on the terms of service - you created a legal binding with anet and in that binding it says..

    Oh, it would not be the first time the actual stance is

    Law > Terms of Service/EULA

    Even "solid" clauses can be contested in court if properly laid out. And that's good.

    So while you are right, it is not necessarily the case. It's only there because...

    ...a) prosecutors won't allow any trial for minor damages (a few Euros is not worth court time)
    ...b) anyone without the right education won't know the right legal remedies and...
    ...b2) never would call a lawyer about that situation.

    But that does not mean you can't. It's like a bouncer on a discotheque. He might be in the wrong by 100%, but still - would it be worth any legal action?

    I was on another forum, and we got into this very discussion about the legality of these kinds of things.

    And the Law upholds TOS/EULA agreements about as often as they Uphold Lease Agreements. So yes, they are very much enforceable.

    In fact, thanks to a few cases, that is why you need to now days scroll to the very end before you click "I Agree" this is to ensure that you manually went though the whole thing before accepting the terms, and, by doing such, they removed the feigned ignorance from the one thing left that allowed people to get out of them.

    It's quite a fun subject, and I am not going to be able to cram a weeks worth of searching and forum post exchanges into one post.

    But, TLDR: In the Modern Digital Age, The EULA you agreed to, is Legit, Legal, and Enforceable.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • choovanski.5462choovanski.5462 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Tanith.5264 said:
    I'm seeing the word "spyware" getting thrown around a lot regarding this situation. Is there any actual evidence that "spyware" was used against these players, or are we all just having a case of the tinfoil tics due to the word appearing in the news so much?

    @Tanith.5264 said:
    I'm seeing the word "spyware" getting thrown around a lot regarding this situation. Is there any actual evidence that "spyware" was used against these players, or are we all just having a case of the tinfoil tics due to the word appearing in the news so much?

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8c2j0y/a_technical_analysis_of_the_spyware_arena_used/

    it’s straight up spyware. absolutely disgusting

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @kharmin.7683 said:

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Cynn.1659 said:
    I find it hilarious that people are mad at anet for looking at the processes they had running. While majority of those angry people run win 10, which gathers data about everything they do and have on their pc all the time, and then sends it to microsoft.

    The very first thing any self respecting Win10 user does when they start on a new Win 10 install is purge all that kitten off their PC. Regardless, the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" is a concept children can understand, so...

    It's also why one does the "custom" install of Win10 so that you can turn all of that stuff off.

    Yeah, there's also some big differences between how MS does it and how Anet does it. The biggest being the fact that MS freaking tells you they're doing it and you can opt out. It's not even like it's behind a million pages of legal jargon! It's right there in the installation!

    ^ this. plus i trust microsoft’s data security much more than i do anet.

    I'm a punk kid, no reason why
    Nothing finer than the taste of tears running down my face
    Oh cry baby cry, oh cry baby cry oh

  • @Ewon.5903 said:
    I'm incredibly sad to see what this has brought out of this community. It's like some Salem witch trial thing. "These people were banned, they must be cheating scum! Perma ban them all!"

    I'm not banned, but I really feel sorry for those who did get caught up in this. Myself, I'm not so bloodthirsty for a ban wave that any and every ban will do.

    Anet going from #GW2FriendShips to #WitchHunt, what a sad time. :(

    This "witch-hunt" is really just a bunch of over reacting Euro folks who never played an online video game in their life. Or never knew the law.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    People like downplaying the importance of the TOS/EULA/whatever you want to call it .. because it's obviously convineint for them to do so. Clearly if the ToS is just some frivolity in someone's eyes, they can justify going about their nefarious activities even more to themselves ... and others. Anyone caught in the sting was in violation, and that's the reason for the ban. No question about it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Some people only respect the law when it benefits them at a time of crises.

    But law is law. Have to respect law and read before you sign anything. It's boring yes but as an adult (especially in America I live in) some of us are taught to be more business minded and law minded.

    If you do not want to be spied on just click do not accept on the terms of service and ask for a refund for the game. Simple as that.

  • @Anthony.3207 said:
    Some people only respect the law when it benefits them at a time of crises.

    But law is law. Have to respect law and read before you sign anything. It's boring yes but as an adult (especially in America I live in) some of us are taught to be more business minded and law minded.

    If you do not want to be spied on just click do not accept on the terms of service and ask for a refund for the game. Simple as that.

    EULAs aren't really ironclad legally speaking. They really only exist to intimidate people from taking action against a company. You are out of your mind if you think Anet has free reign over your computer because of an EULA or if you think that'd even hold up in court.

  • Samnang.1879Samnang.1879 Member ✭✭✭✭

    anet has me shook, biggest sweep of criminals ever!

    Anet: give us in-game customizable human NPC companion please
    Please, no more balance changes, or at least reset our gears so we don't have to waste gold changing gears every time.
    Please have option to not receive bloodstone dusts, empyreal fragments, dragonite etc

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    please remove

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

    You would not say that if the tool had accessed your webcam and sent screenshots to Anet, just to monitor if nobody else is playing your account, because that would be against the ToS.

    Or maybe you would, the slavish obedience expressed to authority in many posts here by several people horrifies me.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

    You would not say that if the tool had accessed your webcam and sent screenshots to Anet, just to monitor if nobody else is playing your account, because that would be against the ToS.

    Or maybe you would, the slavish obedience expressed to authority in many posts here by several people horrifies me.

    If i consented to it, i would allow it.
    However, i don't own a webcam so your hypothetical Orwellian scenario falls flat.

    You know though whats even more horrifying than what you claim to be slavish obedience ? The sheer attempts to feign ignorance and pretending that anything you do online is protected. What you do online is about as protected as what you do in a park. Both are public spaces.

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    please remove

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JohnnySupernova.9182 said:

    @Anthony.3207 said:
    Some people only respect the law when it benefits them at a time of crises.

    But law is law. Have to respect law and read before you sign anything. It's boring yes but as an adult (especially in America I live in) some of us are taught to be more business minded and law minded.

    If you do not want to be spied on just click do not accept on the terms of service and ask for a refund for the game. Simple as that.

    EULAs aren't really ironclad legally speaking. They really only exist to intimidate people from taking action against a company. You are out of your mind if you think Anet has free reign over your computer because of an EULA or if you think that'd even hold up in court.

    The thing is, there's a citable, obvious clause right in the terms that near-explicitly states you agree to let ANet do this. It's not that EULA's make the company immune it's that they get to operate with free legal reign within those terms, and those terms were explicitly stated in the agreement within the Terms of Service.

    EULA's as far as digil privacy go don't hold up in cases where there's doubt based on the extremity of the matter based on "reasonable person" standards of the interpretation of the language and analysis from professionals citing such monitoring isn't realistically necessary (I.E., snapping pictures from a webcam while the application isn't in use to check user behaviors to determine if the game deems the player's out-of-game behavior acceptable to allow an account to the user - the latter of which has precedent but the former does not). However, given the directness of the verbiage in the signed EULA and how tightly it correlates to what was performed in this case, I can't fathom most lawyers even trying to take this case and can see a lot of judges just throwing the case out from the getgo.

    The actual signage of the EULA is legally-binding and does uphold in court 100%. The only room for dispute here would be ANet's language not being understandable. Thing is, it very obviously is and is quite straightforward, and even those mentioning not understanding the EULA have no case, either, as ANet did not solicit signups, and all users sign that they understand the agreement, too.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.
    Quit/Inactive. No, you can't have my stuff.

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    please remove

  • Jason.5983Jason.5983 Member ✭✭

    I think regardless of whether or not people think there was some illegal aspect of it, Arenanet maybe should have hinted at data collection on this scale beforehand, again, regardless of the effect that would have on the operation. I can't say this whole issue hasn't tarnished my view of the company, especially given the lack of a courteous response after this was revealed and questioned by players. I'm quite curious to know if the information has since been deleted. I highly doubt anyone will take this to a court, though the effects are probably worse on the reputation side of things, at least as it stands right now.

    Somewhat gone from a normal consumer-responsive company, to a perceived crossing the grey line Orwellian-type authority, based on the ineffective methods they used; the mere numbers that were banned on a temporary basis, through extravagant data collection methods, and the lack of courteous information beforehand.

  • ToPNoP.2493ToPNoP.2493 Member ✭✭✭

    If ever I were banned for "cheatware," which could not be the case. I would be so adamant that I am innocent that the case would be heard by all. I am not seeing that really, just a lot of what if's and could be's.

    Yes I like comms, but sadly I'm allergic to them.

  • PyrateSilly.4710PyrateSilly.4710 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jason.5983 said:
    I think regardless of whether or not people think there was some illegal aspect of it, Arenanet maybe should have hinted at data collection on this scale beforehand, again, regardless of the effect that would have on the operation. I can't say this whole issue hasn't tarnished my view of the company, especially given the lack of a courteous response after this was revealed and questioned by players. I'm quite curious to know if the information has since been deleted. I highly doubt anyone will take this to a court, though the effects are probably worse on the reputation side of things, at least as it stands right now.

    Somewhat gone from a normal consumer-responsive company, to a perceived crossing the grey line Orwellian-type authority, based on the ineffective methods they used; the mere numbers that were banned on a temporary basis, through extravagant data collection methods, and the lack of courteous information beforehand.

    I can just see the announcement:
    "We know you signed the TOS and/or EULA giving us permission (along with hundreds of other companies) to scan what you have on your computer that you are using at the same time that you are playing GW2 but we are giving you a heads up that we will be doing that between X date and X date"

  • Nightlark.4029Nightlark.4029 Member ✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Malediktus.9250 said:

    @Nightlark.4029 said:
    Wow. You guys are really pessimistic about human nature, and very optimistic about how infallible ANet is.

    @Malediktus.9250 said:
    But there are no false positives. If you cheat in one game you are prone to cheating and should be kept out of online games.
    Also the hashing is nothing to a modern CPU, so if it happens let's say every 5min or so it will cosnume like 0.01% of your CPU time.
    I just run a benchmark and my CPU can handle hashing 11.7 GB data per second of simple algorithms like MD5.
    Even the most complex algorithms my benchmark tool has still reach 1 GB of data hashed per second.

    Calculating the hash might be a relatively cheap operation for the CPU (depends how often they ran it -- some people experiencing worse performance makes me believe they did it much more frequently than 5 min, I haven't played in the past few months, and I haven't dug into the executable yet to find out how often it ran). However, it was reading the programs as they are stored on the disk, which most definitely cannot handle 11.7 GB of data per second -- SSDs can handle ~650MB/s; a laptop drive might be able to handle 80-160MB/s in a good case, but could extremely low (1MB/s) with random access of small files.

    Storage devices become faster quicker than CPU speeds increases. My NVMe SSD already has a peak read of 3.5 GB/s and a write of 2.1 GB/s and there are even faster models.
    What you are saying is the CPU might have to wait for more data from the storage to hash it, but that is a good thing in this case so it has resources left to actually run the game itself.

    Anet chose the most resource lenient way to detect these cheaters. We should be happy about it or the complains about a poorly optimized game would be even greater.

    No it is not just the CPU waiting for more data, because you're forgetting that while your computer may have the latest and greatest NVMe SSD, many people still have regular spinning-platter hard drives -- when you get a bunch of random reads, the read head on the drive has to skip around a lot and performance for anything reading from disk is impacted; in game problems of stuttering or longer delays loading models would just be some of the problems encountered, in addition to a potentially large increase in noise coming from the drive. Any of those signs over a long period of time would make players think they need to upgrade to a new computer, when it is really just poorly designed software.

    Reading 1 GB of small files at 1MB/s is still 15 minutes of time. If they run the hash too frequently, then by the time it finishes the first hash of all processes, it will have started doing the second pass immediately after. While that 15 minutes is a very extreme example, you could imagine a case where someone has 2-4GB of programs being read at 50MB/s that takes about a minute to complete. If ANet happens to run the hash every minute, then now you have the computer constantly computing the hashes of processes.

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    Its not Anets fault if people use prehistoric tech such as HDDs
    SSDs have been affordable for at least 7 years now

  • BillC.4521BillC.4521 Member ✭✭

    Now we only need someone to make post about windows and antivirus program using "SPYWARE COMPONENT" to scan your computer and gather your data.

    If you afraid of gw2 doing this again then just delete/uninstall gw2 from your pc.
    Even the reddit post said its built in into the gw2 client but people keep saying as if anet installing separate program into their computer.
    And its only scanning for running processes and people keep saying about your picture video and webcam etc

  • Jason.5983Jason.5983 Member ✭✭

    @PyrateSilly.4710 said:

    @Jason.5983 said:
    I think regardless of whether or not people think there was some illegal aspect of it, Arenanet maybe should have hinted at data collection on this scale beforehand, again, regardless of the effect that would have on the operation. I can't say this whole issue hasn't tarnished my view of the company, especially given the lack of a courteous response after this was revealed and questioned by players. I'm quite curious to know if the information has since been deleted. I highly doubt anyone will take this to a court, though the effects are probably worse on the reputation side of things, at least as it stands right now.

    Somewhat gone from a normal consumer-responsive company, to a perceived crossing the grey line Orwellian-type authority, based on the ineffective methods they used; the mere numbers that were banned on a temporary basis, through extravagant data collection methods, and the lack of courteous information beforehand.

    I can just see the announcement:
    "We know you signed the TOS and/or EULA giving us permission (along with hundreds of other companies) to scan what you have on your computer that you are using at the same time that you are playing GW2 but we are giving you a heads up that we will be doing that between X date and X date"

    Just because they write the clause, does not mean they have to do such an operation, especially on that scale. The point was, the method turned out to be ineffective and extravagant.

    Besides which, no company or person would (obviously) ever word it in that sarcastic tone. They don't have to give dates, or intricate specifics; but how about something along the lines of "We are introducing some new functions in the client in order to gather more data about security breaches and TOS violations (Hackers and Macro'ers/Botters)"? Followed by the usual "Thanks for your co-operation", and perhaps a couple assurances.

  • Twoodi.5849Twoodi.5849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ewon.5903 said:
    I'm incredibly sad to see what this has brought out of this community. It's like some Salem witch trial thing. "These people were banned, they must be cheating scum! Perma ban them all!"

    I'm not banned, but I really feel sorry for those who did get caught up in this. Myself, I'm not so bloodthirsty for a ban wave that any and every ban will do.

    Anet going from #GW2FriendShips to #WitchHunt, what a sad time. :(

    Glad we still have reasonable users on the forums, well said.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    There is a simple test to see if data collection is done in an unethical and wrong way. If anet would not be fine with having the process list from developers computers posted publicly here then they should treat their customers data as sensitive and important as their own data.

    This has nothing to do with the suspensions (regardless of the topic merge). This has nothing to do with the 5 identified program being targeted. This has also nothing to do with steam and their anti-cheating methods. If I went to steam and asked for a record of all users who has a specific vulnerable version of a banking app, then their reply would be that they do not have that data. Their scanner only report if a specific targeted program is running, but send no records of everything else from their customers machines. I could not ask them for a list of how many people has VPN installed in nations where this is illegal. In contrast, anet could provide such lists. Anet could tomorrow go and send a bunch of people to jail by just providing their collected data to the regime of such countries. They collected that information and has yet to make any statement about what they did with it.

    To echo a thread from yesterday, please delete the data. Please change the spyware so it operate like a anti-cheat program and only report targeted programs. Do not collect or keep records that has nothing to do with gw2. Do not keep records for which people could go to jail if leaked.

  • Yasi.9065Yasi.9065 Member ✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Faaris.8013 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    Additionally, it's not spyware when you consent which everyone using this service did. You voluntarily gave up whatever perceived right to privacy when you consented to the user agreement which states in pretty clear as day terms that anet can scan your system for any tools that may be used to cheat or otherwise gain an unfair advantage.

    You would not say that if the tool had accessed your webcam and sent screenshots to Anet, just to monitor if nobody else is playing your account, because that would be against the ToS.

    Or maybe you would, the slavish obedience expressed to authority in many posts here by several people horrifies me.

    If i consented to it, i would allow it.
    However, i don't own a webcam so your hypothetical Orwellian scenario falls flat.

    You know though whats even more horrifying than what you claim to be slavish obedience ? The sheer attempts to feign ignorance and pretending that anything you do online is protected. What you do online is about as protected as what you do in a park. Both are public spaces.

    And still, personally, Im wearing clothes in park... you know, for protecting my privacy.

  • Jason.5983Jason.5983 Member ✭✭

    @Ardenwolfe.8590 said:
    Contracts. We all signed a contract. It's not a 'law', but a legally binding document. And there's a reason they make us click okay to it every time they update it.

    Seriously? This is the discussion now? For the love of Pete, don't run cheat programs while playing an MMO.

    You don't need legal knowledge to know this. Just use common sense.

    There's a big difference between what you're saying, and what many others are saying.
    I for one, am more concerned with their methods and lack of transparency.

    Perhaps looking into the variety of comments and issues raised would highlight that better.

  • This has probably been said multiple times, but I don't run cheat engines when playing multiplayer games because most of them have a guard program that either refuses to let you play or flags you for cheating even if the process is running.

    That and, if the publisher were to assert I cheated in correlation with some jerk reporting me for being bad, I would be fighting a losing battle if they could point to a cheat engine process running at or around that time.

    And I surely wouldn't do this for weeks on end.

    [Charr Noises]
    [Plays every class]
    [JUST GIT EVEN GUDDER ITS FINE]

This discussion has been closed.
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