Matchmaking algorithm too rigged, — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Matchmaking algorithm too rigged,

cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭

There is either too far of a gap between points and skill level, too few players, or the system is incredibly rigged when it wants you to lose.

Everytime I get close to moving up a tier, I get put in a team comp that is the absolute worst against the other. In this case, a necro and two warriors, against my team that has a rev, thief, and a condi Mesmer. Not only is the comp impossible to beat, but the players are mostly high first tier to middle tier platinum players. My team is 2nd tier gold.

If someone would be kind enough to teach me how to solo a map with a 3 point capping system while avoiding getting gang banged, please feel free. Because matchmaking clearly wants me to be able to make up for my teammates dying every time they spawn.

I'm by far not a great player, but to intentionally create a system that punishes players by placing them against people of either higher skill (sometimes top 20) or a comp that is more favorable knowing that players may not switch to what is needed is a horrible way of keeping people involved in this pvp system.

Not only is the current balance an issue, but nobody is going to want to suffer through a pvp season knowing that after any certain number of wins they're going to be automatically placed against a team with either marginally or significantly higher chances of winning and feeling discouraged when they don't know what they could possibly do to even begin to win the match.

I guess the current system just decides where you should be and is designed specifically to keep you in that position? Even if it means placing you in a team with two zerker staff elementalists and a dagger/pistol thief?

At least it's good for the easy 20 gold, but beyond that it's honestly no surprise I'm seeing the same seemingly 20 people in matches on a daily basis. (Except when I get close to moving back up and seeing some random team of people who beat us 500 to 0 and are clearly of a much higher rank.)

Another thing I've noticed about this system is that if I have a bad match with particular people and choose to not queue for 15 minutes, I still somehow wind up with them on my team. I don't think this is coincidence because the queue time is significantly longer when it wants you to lose. I assume it's intentionally waiting for those other people to get out of the match. Not sure if this is because it wants you to improve with those particular people or because it knows you work poorly together and is assuring that it is a loss. Sometimes after said breaks, even if they're only 5 minutes or so which you would still think would be long enough, you queue up and it instantly pops, because it those people you were avoiding were waiting in queue this entire time and it was just waiting for you before it would generate the match making sure that you're on the same team.

I'm sure this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but those of us playing ranked have to have had similar experiences with some of this. Especially with attempting to avoid certain people and against all odds still winding up with them on your team again even after taking what would seem like a very long break.

I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of things I could do differently and I'm pretty terrible at pvp like pretty much everything else in life, but the old argument that you have to "carry" your team in a 3 point capture game has never made any sense to me even for the absolute best person. Unless you just have to be good enough to solo 5 people like some highly skilled wvw roamer.

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Comments

  • Delweyn.1309Delweyn.1309 Member ✭✭✭

    It will never be possible to have perfect matchmaking and so, there will be either too easy or either too hard matches.

    But the problem is not that. It's the fact that sometimes you get stuck in those wins or loses streaks.

    And whe it's streaks, it's not just random. There is something that calculate to puts you with the best or the worse players numerous times in a row. This is the real problem imo. Something must be done about this.

  • Abelisk.4527Abelisk.4527 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    You need to find a strong teamfight build for highest odds of succeeding. I run zerk scholar GS mirage with illusionary ambush and sword/torch--it is extremely deadly to say the least. Run stuff like that with proficiency, take as many 1v2s as you can (preferrably roads closer to your team) as that will hamper enemy HP + ease pressure for the rest of your team. As a solo carry you have many jobs to pull off and many rotation strategies to consider. Good luck.

  • ok, u can not have the perfect matchmaking but this one is really not working. My old car is not a corvette, i know, but if my car does not move at all it is a little bit different....that being an old slow car....

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    The problem besides matchmaking are builds too... Past season was about scourges + firebrand + spellbreakers, now it is about mesmers + scourges + firebrand

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    This is true for many games, but i hardly believe this is rigged ( although i'm experiencing these chains too sometimes). Pre-PoF, if i was given players that would follow my tactics and chat drawing, i would never lose more than 500-350 and matchs, loses included, were rather fun.
    The problem today it is complicated to make various tactics in chat, and the meta is way too boring and OP, it's fairly easy to get rolled in 15 seconds by scourges or mesmers and have players giving up and losing 500-50.

    But the system can't be deciding that x player is willing to afk/give up, x player isn't reading the chat,.. If you gave me these players ( pre-pof obviously), i'm pretty sure there would be no facerolls. So maybe i could have been losing 10 games consecutives, but i'm pretty sure it's less annoying when you lose them 500-450, than when you lose them 500-100 because of setups.

    What's an issue is that most of the components of chain wins/chain loses is that matchs aren't so fun to play. More likely the " terrible class balance " than a rigged matchmaking to me.

  • We'd have to see a lot more evidence than anyone has published to even speculate that the algorithm is rigged or even that it's flawed in a way that the OP suspects. There are simply far too many other plausible explanations for what the OP claims to see.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Abazigal.3679 I see your point of view but when you actually start taking the time to add players into your contacts list, look them up and view their ratings, you're going to see that those 10 lose streaks are happening because leg/plat2/plat2/plat1/plat1 is going against plat1/plat1/gold3/gold2/gold2 for 10 games in a row and you are for some reason being placed on the low team every match, for 10 matches in a row, or however long it takes to reset you to that designated placement rating. I'm serious, start doing your own research and accrue some numbers for evaluation. Something is going on within the match making that isn't being talked about. But hey, go ahead and keep believing that those 10 lose streak anomalies that happen so often are just dumb luck, where you are somehow unfortunate enough, to be placed on a team with renegades, scrappers and staff eles, vs. much higher rated players on scourges/mirages/firebrands for 10 games in a row.

    I mean, a 6 sided die can only roll a 1 so many times in a row before you have to logically consider that it might be loaded. After seeing it roll a 1, 10x in a row, on several occasions over the course of many nights, the only arguments that can be tossed vs. that die being loaded would be some blanket statement to confuse the ignorant from what was going on, or some far fetched nonsense like "it was an act of god".

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 Few things:
    1. There has been an enormous amount of evidence posted about rigged match making.
    2. Evidence posted is never enough. Someone always has to defend arenanet with some response such as: "We'd have to see a lot more evidence than anyone has published to even speculate that the algorithm is rigged or even that it's flawed in a way that the OP suspects. There are simply far too many other plausible explanations for what the OP claims to see." <- A cop-out response. As if all of the players weren't reporting the EXACT same algorithm behavior and patterns concerning rigged match making, as if there actually were some plausible explanation within a blanket statement with no explanation attached such as: "It's cause low population". I mean, what does that even mean? As if these win streaks/lose streaks weren't happening 4 years ago? yeah... k. Sometimes I wonder if you guys are anet devs on alt accounts who join these threads and toss these generic and transparent defenses of the algorithm so that other users ignore OPs like this.
    3. I could record every match I did during a season on a stream and look up the ratings of every player in every match for comparison. I could also have guests on the stream who talk and discuss their own match history and history of ratings in their matches. We could show screen shots & recorded evidence of EXACTLY what is being discussed here. <- which has been done already on several occasions by many different people. But guys like you will still come in here, and tell us, it isn't enough.

    It's up to every individual person, after seeing that die roll 1 after 1 after 1, when they decide they've had enough of the shenanigans and walk away.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • If you want to rant about having lopsided matches, great. We all like to let off some steam about our frustrations. But if you want to claim there's proof of an issue, then at the very least, include that as part of the post.

    1. There has been an enormous amount of evidence posted about rigged match making.

    Oh? Where? I've seen a lot of anecdotal reports. Not "evidence" collected with rigor.

    1. Evidence posted is never enough.

    What an odd thing to say. Of course there can be enough evidence.

    Someone always has to defend arenanet with some response such as:

    I'm saying the burden is on the claimant to show that there's an issue. That threshold has not been met.
    I don't know what ANet has said on the topic and I don't care, unless they, too, can point to evidence. (They have a different issue, which is that they aren't usually willing to show us their numbers, even though we can be sure that they have "enough evidence.")

    As if all of the players weren't reporting the EXACT same algorithm behavior and patterns concerning rigged match making,

    All players aren't.

    1. I could record every match I did during a season on a stream and look up the ratings of every player in every match for comparison. I could also have guests on the stream who talk and discuss their own match history and history of ratings in their matches. We could show screen shots & recorded evidence of EXACTLY what is being discussed here. <- which has been done already on several occasions by many different people.

    You're confusing personal experience with evidence. What you see in your matches and what the people who self-select in joining your stream discuss isn't "evidence" -- it's what y'all experienced. Evidence means looking at all matches, not just the ones of those who are concerned about the algorithm.

    But guys like you will still come in here, and tell us, it isn't enough.

    Because the burden is on you to show the data, to compare the odds of getting a bad match up (as the OP complains about) near a tier change versus the odds of getting that after, as well as in between. Not just for the complainants, but for lots of players.

    And then estimate the chance that those results are a matter of chance versus an issue with the algorithm.

    It's up to every individual person, after seeing that die roll 1 after 1 after 1, when they decide they've had enough of the shenanigans and walk away.

    People are demonstrably bad at estimating odds on their own. We give inordinate weight to bad results over average, and even average over good. We tend to expect average and so when that's what we get, we're a little disappointed, because it's not better. We tend to discount good luck because, "hey we were due, because of all the bad luck."

    We also give more weight to what just happened and tend to forget weeks and weeks of previous results. And we tend to think that random results should show fewer patterns than rigged results, when in fact there are always clear patterns in random results; it's astronomically unlikely that 'random' lacks such patterns.

    In short, if you want to make a choice to walk away because you had a bunch of bad games, yeah, that is up to you. But what's not up to you is defining what constitutes a sufficient body of evidence to convince a neutral party that there's an issue.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • messiah.1908messiah.1908 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i stop playing rank cause i saw that when i got to tier 3 gold and needed 2 win to get to plat i suddenly got bad players and went to gold 1. so i stopped caring much.
    had more reason to stop it (10 placements i had 7 afk in a row)
    also the fun disappear from rank. in season 1 and 2 i had more fun with full team and playing with plat ppl even when i was gold or lower. more rotation, communication and less flaming. but this is me.

    now

    in theory you have X PLAYERS some of which are good and some are bad.
    they both have 10 games of placement for which the system puts them in a tier. also consider their last mmr.

    so assume i am bad player who practice a lot and started from bronze. in order to be plat i need to win a lot above 60%. and also the system must to put me with ppl below my lvl. as with ppl above or the same lvl i can assume 50% win chance or below.
    in order to have above 60% win ratio the system must decide for you but while doing this in the same time it decides it to for other player who will have 50% win ratio or less.

    so he will stuck in bronze while you proceed to plat.

    with 50% win ratio mathematically no one should get to the next tier ever. as you get less points for win than losing.
    so in order to get to plat you have to have above 60% win ratio (i lost game and got -26 while winning got me 13 points)
    so if ppl got to higher lvl it means that the system choose them and allow them to move up the ladder.

    i dont think its rigged rather the math behind the system.

  • Brother.1504Brother.1504 Member ✭✭✭

    Nothing about the matchmaking and rating system “feels” good. It “feels” random at best and unfair at worst. And other then win is good and lose is bad most players have no idea how matches are scored or rating +- is determined. I love spvp but the system really taints the experience for me.

  • Dreddo.9865Dreddo.9865 Member ✭✭✭

    The players' evaluation seems kinda flawed. I had games this season with teams going all close at start, exploding at first contact without even pressing a skill button, rotating without a clue, dueling unfavoured matchups for their class and perma dying and so many other of similar nature incidents in this season. That might be that players are lacking and much lower MMR ones are being picked to fill the queue or there is something wrong with the MM system itself.

    I myself am not something special (like 4k matches) but is so disappointing to do ranked with people that seem to have even less than 50 matches in their whole ranked life. The MM engine should be reviewed, especially the way the players are evaluated because something isn't working as should and as a result people get frustrated and finally stop playing.

    There are many people stuck in lower divisions not because they belong there but because they get terrible teammates consistently. And unless you are able to hard carry every game it's impossible to escape from this.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hasn't there been statements by developers stating that that average distance in player score between highest and lowest players per game is less than 50?

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 As if all forum & stream activity in the past 6 years did not count as evidence. I'm not going to go digging through 6 years of match making debacle with posted links for you, use your own internet, read the forum, watch streams, play the game and talk to other players, get in the know. Not all evidence comes in the form of an official statement. Also, a statement being "official" does not mean that it is true. It doesn't mean that it is a lie either, it is simply a statement to the best of knowledge at that current time. You also mentioned that burden of evidence provided is laid upon the claimant and this is true, but the problem is that whenever a claimant does indeed provide screenshots, elongated recorded evidence or some otherwise 100% truthful & accurate recollection of suspicious algorithm behavior, they are met with single shut down responses similar to what Ben has posted here. Arenanet in the past, also tends to ignore response on heavy evidence that something is wrong in the match making. I remember back in season 6 or 7 or maybe 8, there was a screenshot posted and thread to follow that ended up being a hot topic for quite some time. It was a match that had 3 legendary top players stacked on one team and then their other 2 were plat 2 or plat 3, something like that. That team had two separate duo teams in it which were extremely high rated. Then for whatever reason, that extremely high rated team was put against a team with a single duo, that was average rated much lower than the other two very high rated duos on the strong team. That lower rated duo had 3 players with them that were much lower rated than any of the players on the strong team. When players began digging up actual ratings and pointing things out, that match had an enormous difference in average party rating. It was much larger than 50 points. Upon further investigation, people started noticing easy ways that the algorithm could have split those players differently amongst the two teams, to create an almost perfect average party rating vs. average party rating, within 5 points actually. For whatever reason, the algorithm did not do its job, it instead chose to stack a bunch of top 10 and top 50 players against a bunch of guys down in top 250ish. I'm sure some people reading this remember what I am talking about. <- It was pretty hard evidence that something was wrong.

    The above was met with a series of new threads & new screenshots showing similar hiccups in the system, where really ridiculously bad matches were being created by the algorithm in terms of seemingly... stacking highs vs. stacked lows, rather than actually balancing the average party rating vs. average party rating. But there was no response from Arenanet in any of these threads. It was as if it wasn't happening at all. I remember many good players leaving after that season.

    But hey what do I know? My "personal experience" of 6 years and 12,000 matches in no way counts as evidence next to an official statement. I mean, maybe every single thing that I type or that comes out of my mouth is a complete lie or I have brain damage and I am completely unable to remembering accurately, in any way, shape or form. Maybe I have some disorder that makes it impossible to rationalize obvious patterns within a system. Because that would make sense.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    Like anybody is going to come on here and say they are rigging matches. Even if they are they will deny, deny, deny all day long. Maybe ANet should start posting current ratings of players on both teams. This would put all speculation as to what is really happening to bed.

    If in fact though they are rigging matches, and don't want all player's ratings revealed in match, they wouldn't ever consider doing this. I've been stuck in gold all season long this time, and I'd swear I'm being matched with bronze players when I get on a winning streak.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's probably not direct rigging but rather some algorithm function that is sealing people into immovable demographics within the rating margins. This much is apparent to any player who has a handful of alt accounts to mess around on. You'll end up having one account that can't fall out of 1650 range and if it does, you seem to get easy matches until hits that 1650 threshold before the dirty matches start. Then you have one that can't seem to stay in in plat 1, as soon as it gets there, instant string of auto lose matches back down to 1400 or something. Then you'll have one that is all over the place for absolutely no reason at all. One day, it's in 1400 range, next day it's topping 1700, day after that it's back down to plat 1/gold 3 and the account never ever seems to reach some threshold of actual placement, despite how many matches are played on the account during a given season. And all of that variation is happening on 3 different accounts, which are being played by the same player, using the same class? Ok. But what's important to note about that is: One account seems to be allowed to easy ride into plat 2/plat 3 range before those mysterious clock work bad matches occur, whereas a different account is only ever allowed to hit plat 1'ish before those mysterious clock work bad matches occur. Then a different account is just hitting super rando win/lose streaks all over the place all of the time like it's being purposely ping ponged up and down the rating margins. All of these patterns remaining consistent and unique to each different account. <- I've discussed with many different players who own different accounts and they ALL experience this type of rando account placements within the algorithm, despite it being the very same player, playing the same class on all of the accounts.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • FlOwMaKeRs.8623FlOwMaKeRs.8623 Member ✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    Like anybody is going to come on here and say they are rigging matches. Even if they are they will deny, deny, deny all day long. Maybe ANet should start posting current ratings of players on both teams. This would put all speculation as to what is really happening to bed.

    If in fact though they are rigging matches, and don't want all player's ratings revealed in match, they wouldn't ever consider doing this. I've been stuck in gold all season long this time, and I'd swear I'm being matched with bronze players when I get on a winning streak.

    I just realized that yesterday. Check my post.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    @FlOwMaKeRs.8623 Ty much sir. Another post stating the exact same things that I've been talking about, to contribute to @Illconceived Was Na.9781 and his evidence -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36523/matchmaking-still-bad-and-disgusting#latest

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭

    As far as what you said earlier, Trevor, that’s pretty much it. It has a particular spot it wants you in. If you go on lose streak after lose streak, you can play a glass staff ele auto attacking and your team will be so good that even with you dying 20 times in the match you will still win because matchmaking decided you needed to be bumped back up to that rating. And on a win streak if it wants you to lose it will not only pair you against play 2 and 3 players as gold 3 but you can pull out all the stops gravity welling and bursting down everyone in a point giving your team a fair chance and they will do no damage and do nothing but die whenever you’re not around. Like, spawn, run mid, scourges auto attacking and dead without even using defensives. Not to mention the comp.

    On one of my win streaks I wound up going against a Godess of PVP and some apparently famous thief on the opposite team, both of whom are like 1700 rating versus my trying to squeeze out another TWO POINTS to 1500 because the system somehow determined that my wins were only worth 7-12 points but my losses were worth 17.

    I’m not saying that Arenanet is rigging matches on a personal level or anything, but that the matchmaking system follows exactly like Trevor stated. You win streak and lose streak on a pattern that ultimately leads back to where it wants you to be, and that it seems extremely obvious when it wants you to lose and win it wants you to win based on who it matches you with or against and that there is often nothing you can do to impact the outcome of that match.

    There is very clearly a pattern, and the pattern doesn’t seem to favor skill so much as how it has already appraised you.

  • Rodzynald.5897Rodzynald.5897 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2018

    Let's not forget that it is also people who are the issue. You can have the best blender to mix up the greatest smoothies, but you won't get a good smoothie if you throw kitten into the blender itself. So basically lack of skilled playerbase, lots of gimmicks and promotion of low skill floor gameplay.
    Matchmaking has no reasources to work better, at this point its just a struggling fish without water, flopping around trying to do matches that would at least have a tiny little spark of giving a fair chance to both teams. Still, why does it happen in such a volatile manner? I've been playing MMORPG's PvP game modes for over 12 years and this is honestly the first game in which I just had to leave PvP because it made me feel absolutely livid instead of granting me my well fed sense of challange after at least a semi-balanced fight, and a tiny taste of salt. It was pure salt and little to no satisfaction.
    I don't even play anymore despite forcing myself to it, I just can't stand the sight of mowing down scrubs without even trying, few times in a row. Or the same streak but having my bottom served to me multiple times due to sheer and raw overpower by the opposing team.
    It happens way too often for my taste. This is why I don't play anymore because it feels to me like a game of chess. I feel like a pawn in hands of MMR that will either let me smack down some randoms who have no idea how to play, or get rekt by a stacked enemy team. There is no test of skill anymore, no more joy in that, just a kitten ordeal and a bitter taste.
    I just wish that PvP team actually had control over PvP balance and at least try to play the game itself, test it, instead of "looking at the data". As a customer, I am full of dissapointment, because I was told years back that PvP in this game is good (and it indeed was). At least before HoT I had a good taste of what PvP should have been. As a player I am just sad that it turned out to be a powercreep festival every single balance patch, and when I heard for the first time that PvP team does not take care of skill balance in their own gamemode, this is when I stopped believing that PvP will ever come back to what it once was.

    Casual friendly and quality pvp - these two do not work well together.

  • Egorum.9506Egorum.9506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Hasn't there been statements by developers stating that that average distance in player score between highest and lowest players per game is less than 50?

    No. The average skill rating between teams is less than 50. The deviation is higher than that. Don't have the number off the top of my head though.

    We do our best to get the standard deviation as close as we can though.

    And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

    Pretty sure that as the pvp dev, you'd have that number off the top of your head. Especially since you guys just redid the mmr system last month?

    Is the 50 team mmr difference based on what the players current shown mmr is, or based on what their hidden mmr is? Because there should be no reason that 3 Plat 2 gold should ever be up against 5 Plat teams, but it happens constantly

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    But hey what do I know? My "personal experience" of 6 years and 12,000 matches in no way counts as evidence next to an official statement.

    Correct. Your personal experience is just that: personal.
    1000 statements by 1000 players that they think it's rigged doesn't even mean that they are seeing unusual results. It just means that they think they are seeing something non-random. Without actual data, collected from a variety of people under neutral conditions, we can't actually say one way or the other.

    The difference between your comment and @Ben Phongluangtham.1065's is that ANet bases theirs on the data. (Whether you choose to believe their data since they aren't releasing it in detail is a different matter. I can understand why some might distrust the Authority with a vaguely vested interest in the outcome of their analysis.)

    You can repeat your theory all you like, but without seeing the data, it's still just your theory, no matter how many other people believe it. It's similar to the myth that full moons generate crazier behavior: there are 1000s if not millions of nurses, cops, teachers, and night club bouncers who believe it because that's what they see every full moon. But it turns out that every data-driven analysis shows that folks are suffering from a variety of unintentional biases: for example, they remember every weird thing that happens on a full moon, but don't give us much weight to the weird things the other 26-8 days of the lunar cycle. For example, they forget that paydays and fridays also tend to bring out more "notable events" and control for the coincidence of a full moon happening on such a day.

    You want to convince anyone other than people who are already convinced? Show your data.

    "With great power comes not-so-great utility bills."

  • DragonFury.6243DragonFury.6243 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Hasn't there been statements by developers stating that that average distance in player score between highest and lowest players per game is less than 50?

    No. The average skill rating between teams is less than 50. The deviation is higher than that. Don't have the number off the top of my head though.

    We do our best to get the standard deviation as close as we can though.

    And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

    in the far far future !
    is their a chance we can get rid of profession(or elite specialization) stacking in PVP plz ?

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yanniell.1236 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Hasn't there been statements by developers stating that that average distance in player score between highest and lowest players per game is less than 50?

    No. The average skill rating between teams is less than 50. The deviation is higher than that. Don't have the number off the top of my head though.

    We do our best to get the standard deviation as close as we can though.

    And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

    You wouldn't have these complaints if the game showed people's rank before/after the match.

    i still don't believe games are " equally" balance in terms of "rating" when a match starts. When a game is " 210-500" theirs absolutely no way that was a class rating match up at all.

    My biggest issue i seen within the last week is TOP rated players within the top 1-30 on the same TEAM, however you look around for your team/players and you see that NOT a single one of them even top 250..... yet the system matched me against 3 highly top rated players.

    THE ONLY reason I know for sure they don't want to show it is because it isn't an "equal" rating match up, IF it was then their wouldn't be an issue at ALL to show every badge or the TEAM overall rating.

  • EnderzShadow.2506EnderzShadow.2506 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    I've been in the same win/loss streak that everyone has experienced in Ranked PvP

    But it could it be possible, because the size of the player base (small) that you end up playing with the same people because those are the only people near your rating?

    There are far too many factors and not enough players to make Ranked PvP fair. And to be fair to Anet, there would never be enough players.
    -the skill levels of players
    -the timing of when people get on
    -The strength of the class and spec (anet will NEVER factor this in and it's always changing)
    -Add in class stacking, something they have yet to address (or class switching)

    Do players in Overwatch complain about matchmaking as much as GW2 peeps ?

    mhm, ok, sure, whatever you say, no after you, I insist, no really, please, be my guest,

  • Delweyn.1309Delweyn.1309 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Hasn't there been statements by developers stating that that average distance in player score between highest and lowest players per game is less than 50?

    No. The average skill rating between teams is less than 50. The deviation is higher than that. Don't have the number off the top of my head though.

    We do our best to get the standard deviation as close as we can though.

    And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

    I personally believe that you don't have created intentionally a system of wins/loses streaks.

    But the fact is that it really, truly, is happening in the game. Like Trevor Boyer.6524 said, it happens at a certain point and it always has the same form : lose or win because our team is either much stronger or either much weaker than ennemy team. And it happens for numerous matches in a row. It's the reality for many players who play a lot in pvp.

    It's just not possible with just random or luck, that someone can lose 9/10 matches in a row then win 9/10 matches in row after.

    We don't accuse you to have deliberately put this system in the matchmaking but please, consider that your system is really fonctionning like this for some reasons.

    Please, put some thoughts about it.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    But hey what do I know? My "personal experience" of 6 years and 12,000 matches in no way counts as evidence next to an official statement.

    Correct. Your personal experience is just that: personal.
    1000 statements by 1000 players that they think it's rigged doesn't even mean that they are seeing unusual results. It just means that they think they are seeing something non-random. Without actual data, collected from a variety of people under neutral conditions, we can't actually say one way or the other.

    The difference between your comment and @Ben Phongluangtham.1065's is that ANet bases theirs on the data. (Whether you choose to believe their data since they aren't releasing it in detail is a different matter. I can understand why some might distrust the Authority with a vaguely vested interest in the outcome of their analysis.)

    You can repeat your theory all you like, but without seeing the data, it's still just your theory, no matter how many other people believe it. It's similar to the myth that full moons generate crazier behavior: there are 1000s if not millions of nurses, cops, teachers, and night club bouncers who believe it because that's what they see every full moon. But it turns out that every data-driven analysis shows that folks are suffering from a variety of unintentional biases: for example, they remember every weird thing that happens on a full moon, but don't give us much weight to the weird things the other 26-8 days of the lunar cycle. For example, they forget that paydays and fridays also tend to bring out more "notable events" and control for the coincidence of a full moon happening on such a day.

    You want to convince anyone other than people who are already convinced? Show your data.

    You're still arguing with me on some flaccid point about the difference between personal experience and evidence, whilst user after user is posting personal experience feedback in this thread, tossing affirmation after affirmation, saying they are experiencing the exact same thing that the OP and myself have explained. The only real debate in any of this, is if people believe the matches are straight up rigged or not. But the patterns we are talking about, are definitely happening.

    Like I said before, at what point do you acknowledge the 6 sider endlessly rolling 1s as incriminating evidence, rather than superstition.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

    It's all down to the fact that many people significantly overestimate their own skill level, so they prefer blaming the matchmaking mechanics for not reaching a higher tier. It's always been like that. What's more ridiculous is that certain individuals claim their own 'personal experience' is more of an evidence than any factual, hard data.
    Don't bother with them, it's not worth it.

  • Nappa.1904Nappa.1904 Member ✭✭

    That's the reason I've been stuck in Gold3 for the past 2 seasons. Once you get close to 1500 rating, the matches become extremely one sided, you get steamrolled so hard. Last seasons I think I was 2 or 3 games away before going on a 8 or 10 match lose streak.
    So either my personal "skill" dropped like a brick overnight, or there's something wrong with the MMR.

  • Chilli.2976Chilli.2976 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    If your q doesn't pop before 5min reset it - or been ready for a disaster.

    twitch.tv/chillichur

  • ezd.6359ezd.6359 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    @rank eleven monk.9502 said:

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

    It's all down to the fact that many people significantly overestimate their own skill level, so they prefer blaming the matchmaking mechanics for not reaching a higher tier. It's always been like that. What's more ridiculous is that certain individuals claim their own 'personal experience' is more of an evidence than any factual, hard data.
    Don't bother with them, it's not worth it.

    If you play a lot, you remember players names. If you roflstomp enemy today, climb and then you see him tomorrow in your team working as rally bot, it raises questions. Or in one match your team die faster than you can run from close to mid, but next match starts with chat like this "i hope all plats here? - im top X, im top X...", then your team wins 500x50. Huh?

    I heared one game developer (blizzards?) said they intentionally make some games too easy or too hard, because:
    1) Their matchmaking is too good, it could make 50/50 matches too often, so testers say they are tired of hard matches.
    2) Easy matches let players feel good.
    3) Hard matches give experience.

    I can't prove it. May be im mistaken. Just my thoughts. I don't think it is right decision and i hope arena.net don't implement such thing.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2018

    @Delweyn.1309 said:
    It will never be possible to have perfect matchmaking and so, there will be either too easy or either too hard matches.

    But the problem is not that. It's the fact that sometimes you get stuck in those wins or loses streaks.

    And whe it's streaks, it's not just random. There is something that calculate to puts you with the best or the worse players numerous times in a row. This is the real problem imo. Something must be done about this.

    I wanted to point out this guy's post as he words it pretty accurately. It's not that anyone believes Arenanet employees are sitting back and having a good laugh while directly rigging matches by hand. When they say "It feels rigged" they are referring to whatever the algorithm is doing when it places us into a predetermined stature of winning or losing for that day, regardless of if you are peaking and breaking skill limits or maybe even playing a bit poorly. <- This isn't satisfying play and it makes it so actual player skill is taking a backseat to the algorithm's predetermination. This is frustrating and it does not feel good to play at all.

    Guild Wars 1 random arenas "that had absolutely no match making algorithm in place" felt like more balanced match making than Guild Wars 2 and it still does to this day. If the algorithm in Guild Wars 2 is having so many problems with a lower population, maybe it's time to consider removing it or heavily altering it's functions.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Nappa.1904Nappa.1904 Member ✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Delweyn.1309 said:
    It will never be possible to have perfect matchmaking and so, there will be either too easy or either too hard matches.

    But the problem is not that. It's the fact that sometimes you get stuck in those wins or loses streaks.

    And whe it's streaks, it's not just random. There is something that calculate to puts you with the best or the worse players numerous times in a row. This is the real problem imo. Something must be done about this.

    I wanted to point out this guy's post as he words it pretty accurately. It's not that anyone believes Arenanet employees are sitting back and having a good laugh while directly rigging matches by hand. When they say "It feels rigged" they are referring to whatever the algorithm is doing when it places us into a predetermined stature of winning or losing for that day, regardless of if you are peaking and breaking skill limits or maybe even playing a bit poorly. <- This isn't satisfying play and it makes it so actual player skill is taking a backseat to the algorithm's predetermination. This is frustrating and it does not feel good to play at all.

    Guild Wars 1 random arenas "that had absolutely no match making algorithm in place" felt like more balanced match making than Guild Wars 2 and it still does to this day. If the algorithm in Guild Wars 2 is having so many problems with a lower population, maybe it's time to consider removing it or heavily altering it's functions.

    Agreed with all of your posts. Unfortunately, all of that requires effort, resources, time and most importantly the ability to admit that you were wrong about something. Don't think Anet is willing to use/admit to any of those just yet.

  • Badcat.7320Badcat.7320 Member ✭✭

    @Nappa.1904 said:
    That's the reason I've been stuck in Gold3 for the past 2 seasons. Once you get close to 1500 rating, the matches become extremely one sided, you get steamrolled so hard. Last seasons I think I was 2 or 3 games away before going on a 8 or 10 match lose streak.
    So either my personal "skill" dropped like a brick overnight, or there's something wrong with the MMR.

    it is something wrong with the system. high players get put with high players and lower players put with lower players. a good player stuck in gold who should play high cannot get high partners to win games against high players to climb a high rating so he stay stuck in gold. if mmr was not high before low population now good luck.

  • MarshallLaw.9260MarshallLaw.9260 Member ✭✭✭✭

    With all due respect, most of the "evidence" quoted in this thread is just a collection of stories/experiences. These are usually susceptible to exaggeration and we have seen very little collective evidence - eg tracking graphs of all matches from a sample of 3-4k players for a whole season. This would be closer to evidence than tales of "oh I was on a 98 match winning streak and then ANet punished me for being so good by making me lose the next 50 matches in a row" (anyone has the right to exaggerate).
    I don't believe ANet would have a good enough reason to bother doing this - do you really think they pick out people to "lock" into certain tiers intentionally?

    It's much simpler, and more logical to dismiss this as a conspiracy theory. As for the "1000 players" posting about losing streaks - well that's not proof - I've had a few such streaks now and then, some weeks none. On the whole I think the matchmaking isn't too bad when you take into account the low population the system has to work with - but unlike those posting about "100x losing streaks" - this is the first time I'm posting against it. Volume of comments/posts for an idea shouldn't be taken as evidence that it's the most prevalent. There could be 1,000 players who think MM is rigged versus 20,000 who don't - but are just not vocal about it.

    -

    Lastly, people who claim to have left the game, for some reason, seem to have quite a lot to say about its current state. I in no way think that those people should stop posting but bear in mind if you finish your statements with " ....that's why I've left the game and am greatly enjoying playing other MMOs for some time..." then why should anybody consider your comments relevant? Make your mind up - you've either left and have nothing to do with the game, or you've pretended to leave and are up-to-date.

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