Why Rank Rating is Pointless — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why Rank Rating is Pointless

zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited April 19, 2018 in PVP

A few Weeks into testing on how new accounts can easily obtain "plat" status and Leader-board status by just doing the Following.

Main Account has slightly over 100 games played , on Engi and the account about 6-7 years old give or take.

On main account:

  1. 10 wins over loses (60 wins, 50 loses) (6-4 in placements)
  2. rating usually anywhere from 1570-1640(depending on my win and lose streak)
  3. Playing Holo only
  4. This account has over a total of 4 season of playing Pvp (currently on 5th)

Second Account , is mainly an Alt account made to continue testing things out first time doing rank with this account.

Second account

  1. 20 Wins over my lose(28 wins and 8 loses) (8-2 in placements)
  2. currently sitting around on 1659 rating (play 2 games every 2days)
  3. Playing p/p thief
  4. Few more games needed in order to be in the leader board status(for this week that is)

Third Account, another Alt account with POF expansion made to Test win/lose difference compared to my Main account. First time Doing Rank with this account.

  1. 26 wins over my loses ( 32 wins and 6 loses)(10-0 in placements)
    2.Currently sitting in the 1789 rating(Went from playing 2 games every day, currently planning to do 1 game every day and not risk losing rating)
  2. Playing Bunker Holo( Same as account one)
  3. Going to sit / camp leader board after 45 games played

From just running around testing 3 different account, i find it highly stupid that my main account doesn't get anywhere near the amount of win/lose ration compared to the second and third account. Is it because i Play to often on the main account or is because the Main account is a few years old and already has xx amount of rank games played making the hidden MMR already fixed? Those this allow new fresh accounts to easily get EASIER games or better chances of winning their games? Account 1 and 3 are the same kitten just less total play games, however even when starting off on my main account for this season matches were NO where near as easy as the ones i get on account 2 and 3.

On account 2 i don't even play thief like that however playing P/P deadeye isn't as skillful at all however im able to carry games 10x better and easier by playing a class like this. I'm completely shocked at how easy it was to get into plat 2 with this account with almost no efforts AT all besides avoiding on getting focus on. This makes me believe match making is completely fixed on hidden MMR history and not current MMR or.... the player base has really really gotten so bad that such builds like this can really get players to such a high level without punishing their game play at all or spec. If so then whats the point in playing "meta" builds and not trying meme builds instead?

Account three has with out a doubt made me want to cry out of frustration on how it's possible for the same exact build and class be on a completely different win and lose ration. Current planning on making my Main account to be a "gold grinder" for PvP as it is right now and focus on Account three into being my PvP account for serious matters when doing Rank games only. In Order for account three to stay somewhere in the 1700 rating i need to continue playing 1-2 games a day and focus on not getting to "greedy" with wanting to play more because 1 lose on that account would easily lose me over 27 rating , when one single win can only get me 7 ratings.

This has made me believe that newer accounts get easier wins and easier noob stomp matches for players to carry compared to older accounts, If you don't believe it I highly suggest in doing some of the testing yourself. You can make a new account and go strictly to PvP after getting level 20 in the arena where you'll also notice that Unrank match ups are INSANELY unfair (1vs4 at mid) where players don't even dodge lol. Which leads me to believe it's the same thing when going into rank for the first few games, your match ups are no different from rank TILL after you get placed somewhere in plat that when SOME games are a bit harder but a majority of them don't even seem that hard at all. Rank rating and titles at this point are just 100% meaningless and doesn't really determine 1 skill level at all.

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Comments

  • Panda.3620Panda.3620 Member ✭✭

    Could you provide screenshots from account 1, 2 and 3 to consolidate your claim?

    But I don't see a problem though, the rating system is pretty solid for what I've seen, there is not much deviation, if you keep on playing in accounts 2 and 3 your rating will certainly lower by the end of the season (that is, if you stay on the leaderboards), 40 matches is a small pool.

    But you have a good headstart on account 2 and 3, make sure not to lose it.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Panda.3620 It doesn't on my gf's account though, as example. It's been 3 seasons now, I place her account and it always goes above 1700. Algorithm seems to never adjust her actual MMR or something. Doesn't make sense.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Panda.3620 said:
    Could you provide screenshots from account 1, 2 and 3 to consolidate your claim?

    But I don't see a problem though, the rating system is pretty solid for what I've seen, there is not much deviation, if you keep on playing in accounts 2 and 3 your rating will certainly lower by the end of the season (that is, if you stay on the leaderboards), 40 matches is a small pool.

    But you have a good headstart on account 2 and 3, make sure not to lose it.

    i'll post screen at the end of the season and i'll make another post.

    however you are correct though, i just find it insanely stupid spamming games gets you that low in rating but playing 1-2 games a day doesnt? the point of post is to show that camping and not really playing rank matches gets you that high for no reason. When i make my secondary post at the end of this season and if im still that high up then i'll add on to it.

    but few that know who I am know my alts accounts already.

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    You gotta stop smoking crack and watching Fox News.
    These conspiracy theories are getting crazy.

    Sometimes you get good teammates, sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you make a mistake, sometimes you don't. Enough with the "hidden mmr"/ new account rubbish.

    Just try to enjoy ranked - if you can do that with a dwindling population and whatever you want to call this meta, then you are already winning.

  • Panda.3620Panda.3620 Member ✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @Panda.3620 said:
    Could you provide screenshots from account 1, 2 and 3 to consolidate your claim?

    But I don't see a problem though, the rating system is pretty solid for what I've seen, there is not much deviation, if you keep on playing in accounts 2 and 3 your rating will certainly lower by the end of the season (that is, if you stay on the leaderboards), 40 matches is a small pool.

    But you have a good headstart on account 2 and 3, make sure not to lose it.

    i'll post screen at the end of the season and i'll make another post.

    however you are correct though, i just find it insanely stupid spamming games gets you that low in rating but playing 1-2 games a day doesnt? the point of post is to show that camping and not really playing rank matches gets you that high for no reason. When i make my secondary post at the end of this season and if im still that high up then i'll add on to it.

    but few that know who I am know my alts accounts already.

    Oh, indeed on the current system you got rewarded for not playing too much. That's something that needs a fix. Didn't got your point, sorry.

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    I think the main point is people are getting place WAY to high on new accounts. This is putting more players who don't deserve said rating in with people who do, thus screwing people and dropping ratings of deserving players. This is why most of the high tier players have left this game. New players need to be placed in bronze and then earn their way up from there.

    To often in gold, and even plat, you see players spawn camping beasts and abandoning points for them. This isn't the kind of play that deserves that kind of rating. I may not be a high level plat player but I for sure deserve more than a silver rating. Considering when I play unranked I'm playing with top tier players and holding my own just fine with them.

    Only fix I can see at this point is resetting everyone's ranked rating and starting from scratch. Things are that screwed up right now with the ratings.

  • OriOri.8724OriOri.8724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    I think the main point is people are getting place WAY to high on new accounts. This is putting more players who don't deserve said rating in with people who do, thus screwing people and dropping ratings of deserving players. This is why most of the high tier players have left this game. New players need to be placed in bronze and then earn their way up from there.

    To often in gold, and even plat, you see players spawn camping beasts and abandoning points for them. This isn't the kind of play that deserves that kind of rating. I may not be a high level plat player but I for sure deserve more than a silver rating. Considering when I play unranked I'm playing with top tier players and holding my own just fine with them.

    Only fix I can see at this point is resetting everyone's ranked rating and starting from scratch. Things are that screwed up right now with the ratings.

    Giving more weight to matches played if the number is very low might help too.

    Eyyyy I unlocked signatures

  • Is it just the profession and skill differences that end up giving you a higher score? My account is rather new, and frankly I suck at PvP and I'm always on the border of bronze and silver despite only playing 1-2 games per day. I've seen some threads where people say if you can play a certain profession well, it helps, but so far in my (mostly) losses, all I find is that having good teammates is the only thing that pushes the team to victory.

    I have infinite patience, but I still have a threshold for idiocy.

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    Honestly the real issue is that placement games mean way too much, and the mmr system seems to build from there. So if you get very lucky or very unlucky with your placement matches it seems you can end up in a strange situation where your mmr doesn't match your elo score at all.

    That and the mesmer meta we are in throws a big wrench in the system. I have been in quite a number of games that legit came down to "Team with better mesmer wins". Bad balance can also result in matches seemingly being based on luck.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Master Ketsu.4569 said:
    Honestly the real issue is that placement games mean way too much, and the mmr system seems to build from there. So if you get very lucky or very unlucky with your placement matches it seems you can end up in a strange situation where your mmr doesn't match your elo score at all.

    That and the mesmer meta we are in throws a big wrench in the system. I have been in quite a number of games that legit came down to "Team with better mesmer wins". Bad balance can also result in matches seemingly being based on luck.

    ya placements seems to be what makes it or breaks it from what i been getting. I think having a soft rest should be changed getting placed that high after a few more wins is insanely dumb imo.

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    @Rufo.3716 said:
    I think the main point is people are getting place WAY to high on new accounts. This is putting more players who don't deserve said rating in with people who do, thus screwing people and dropping ratings of deserving players. This is why most of the high tier players have left this game. New players need to be placed in bronze and then earn their way up from there.

    To often in gold, and even plat, you see players spawn camping beasts and abandoning points for them. This isn't the kind of play that deserves that kind of rating. I may not be a high level plat player but I for sure deserve more than a silver rating. Considering when I play unranked I'm playing with top tier players and holding my own just fine with them.

    Only fix I can see at this point is resetting everyone's ranked rating and starting from scratch. Things are that screwed up right now with the ratings.

    Someone is mad newly created accounts are better at pvp than them it seems (Don't refer to unranked as it literally means nothing - often people don't take it seriously, try hard or use proper builds).

    If someone with a week's experience can beat someone with 5 years' experience, why shouldn't they be placed in plat? They deserve that.
    Also just because someone is spawn camping doesn't mean they are a new account - I've seen that done by many "experienced" players who argue they know exactly what they're doing.

  • It coud be that you have bether or worser synergies with some classes, or the different lvls you play those classes. If i woud play ele or mesmer my rate ofc woud be go down. If i play thief, i still have some troubles to play with a core guard on my team, but on warrior i play him most times well enouth and allready learned to help other players as well as possible.

    I remeber how i "supported" some teammates as ranger with pushing my dmg instead of healing, stealthing or giving boons => less dmg of enermies cause they need to play defensive! :). Im not sure if "yolo"builds are that good, cause they have a clear role and clear counters. means if you play them you can fokus easyer on that cause you cant do much more. Maybe they carried bether then your mainclass :)

    So it´s easyer to test if u play the same builds and same classes like on your main acc.

  • BikeIsGone.8675BikeIsGone.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    Since the inherent player skill doesnt change obviously, Id like to see how all those ratings match up once they have an equal amount of matches.
    Your second and third account have only about 33% of matches of your main account.
    If all your account have about the same match quantity id suppose they d be much closer to each other.
    Anyway, appreciate your sharing, keep us posted plz.

  • Kheldorn.5123Kheldorn.5123 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @Panda.3620 said:
    Could you provide screenshots from account 1, 2 and 3 to consolidate your claim?

    But I don't see a problem though, the rating system is pretty solid for what I've seen, there is not much deviation, if you keep on playing in accounts 2 and 3 your rating will certainly lower by the end of the season (that is, if you stay on the leaderboards), 40 matches is a small pool.

    But you have a good headstart on account 2 and 3, make sure not to lose it.

    i'll post screen at the end of the season and i'll make another post.

    however you are correct though, i just find it insanely stupid spamming games gets you that low in rating but playing 1-2 games a day doesnt? the point of post is to show that camping and not really playing rank matches gets you that high for no reason. When i make my secondary post at the end of this season and if im still that high up then i'll add on to it.

    but few that know who I am know my alts accounts already.

    Yeah, that's pretty stupid. Even though I'm low div, I already noticed that playing more actually punishes me. If I camped minimum match req every week I'd be at medium gold.

  • BMW.2951BMW.2951 Member ✭✭✭

    Guys it's easy... This happens because of low population. Many many many bad players exist in Gold and if you are in silver or lower you just don't understand the game mode at all. I am sure at one point when the population for spvp was high, you actually had to work for Gold status.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    3 data samples hardly make a statistical certainty, but yeah, it's kinda troubling that you can smurf to a better rank than you can main.

  • Scary.8034Scary.8034 Member ✭✭

    Your sample seem way too small, could just be luck

  • apharma.3741apharma.3741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Panda.3620 It doesn't on my gf's account though, as example. It's been 3 seasons now, I place her account and it always goes above 1700. Algorithm seems to never adjust her actual MMR or something. Doesn't make sense.

    You were openly saying and continue to openly say that you are playing on another persons account, which is very much against ToS and we’ve even had a fairly high profile player perma banned for it.

    It’s also worth pointing out discussing moderation on these forums is also against the forum ToS.

    I don’t care about what you think is right or wrong and my own personal views are not what I am stating here only that you are and continue to break ToS and wave your hands in the air claiming to have no clue what could possibly have been wrong.

  • HadrianBlackwater.5736HadrianBlackwater.5736 Member ✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    You gotta stop smoking crack and watching Fox News.
    These conspiracy theories are getting crazy.

    Sometimes you get good teammates, sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you make a mistake, sometimes you don't. Enough with the "hidden mmr"/ new account rubbish.

    Just try to enjoy ranked - if you can do that with a dwindling population and whatever you want to call this meta, then you are already winning.

    You mean smoking "dope" and watching MSNBC and CNN. Your not one of those people that believes Trump calls Sean Hannity 3 times a day are you?

  • HadrianBlackwater.5736HadrianBlackwater.5736 Member ✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    @Scary.8034 said:
    Your sample seem way too small, could just be luck

    You only have to play like 120 games or something to rank at the end of the season. He is like 1/3 of the way there. Lots of people do this. Even if some of the stuff he is saying is wrong this happens all the time. This is a very flawed system in a lot ways even if you believe the mactmaking mostly does a good job.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @HadrianBlackwater.5736 said:

    @Scary.8034 said:
    Your sample seem way too small, could just be luck

    You only have to play like 120 games or something to rank at the end of the season. He is like 1/3 of the way there. Lots of people do this. Even if some of the stuff he is saying is wrong this happens all the time. This is a very flawed system in a lot ways even if you believe the mactmaking mostly does a good job.

    Exactly that.... 120 games total by end of the season I just need to keep my win / lose per week higher then usual to stay on top.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.3527 said:
    I'll chime in here to say that the number of games played on an account has very little impact on what matches you are placed in, and absolutely no impact on what team you end up on. To clarify, the matchmaker uses a few parameters to create a "score" when considering a roster for a match, and these parameters are all weighted differently. The maximum impact of games played is equivalent to about 12 rating points. After rosters have been picked for a match, another layer of the matchmaker builds the teams. This layer only considers rating and profession, and games played isn't used at all.

    Are you guys planning on reintroducing team ques in ranked?

    PvP used to be a lot more lively when people actually tried to find another people to play with and have some friendly interactions outside of being toxic in a match. I've had several guilds, each with 200+ people die off less than a week after we weren't allowed to play with each other anymore.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2018

    @apharma.3741 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    @Panda.3620 It doesn't on my gf's account though, as example. It's been 3 seasons now, I place her account and it always goes above 1700. Algorithm seems to never adjust her actual MMR or something. Doesn't make sense.

    You were openly saying and continue to openly say that you are playing on another persons account, which is very much against ToS and we’ve even had a fairly high profile player perma banned for it.

    It’s also worth pointing out discussing moderation on these forums is also against the forum ToS.

    I don’t care about what you think is right or wrong and my own personal views are not what I am stating here only that you are and continue to break ToS and wave your hands in the air claiming to have no clue what could possibly have been wrong.

    Yup gotcha, thanks for the heads up. I've been getting a bit crazy on it. I was just trying to give good feedback.

    In all seriousness though, I had done nothing on that account other than test placement out of curiosity. Then I realized I could just make f2p accounts to do it, so I don't even use her account anymore and I wouldn't again.

  • Unfortunately I have to agree with OP. With my main account, 5 years old, I am usually placed slighty above 1500 rating, (57% win ratio according to gw2effi, always meta builds or slighty adjusted to my needs) and usually placement matches are "tryhard" matches and same by whole season. Two weeks ago I made another account where I went straight to pvp with vanilla D/D ele and i am amazed how good I am now with 80% win ratio. Something is fishy here.

  • Cal just let the cat out of the bag. Think about what he is saying... The system considers how many matches you've played when picking the 10 players. So you are more likely to face more experienced player if you're account has tons of historical matches. The difference in the slight bias is resulting in a massive difference in rating as noted by the OP.

    It makes sense that ANET doesn't really want new PvP players to get stomped by highly experienced/skilled players, so they try to separate us as much as reasonably possible. Enter OP on an alt account stomping all the rookies.

    Of course, all of this is pointless though as nearly all matches that I've played in this season have had some wintraders in them.

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    Most matches are decided by team composition in ranked - not by mmr.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Marxx.5021 said:
    Most matches are decided by team composition in ranked - not by mmr.

    I won games with double thiefs, ranger , and a Mesmer while I’m on HoLo against an actual team comp. in rank that isn’t the factor espically if players don’t know how to play as a team at all.

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    @HadrianBlackwater.5736 said:

    @Meteor.3720 said:
    You gotta stop smoking crack and watching Fox News.
    These conspiracy theories are getting crazy.

    Sometimes you get good teammates, sometimes you get bad teammates, sometimes you make a mistake, sometimes you don't. Enough with the "hidden mmr"/ new account rubbish.

    Just try to enjoy ranked - if you can do that with a dwindling population and whatever you want to call this meta, then you are already winning.

    You mean smoking "dope" and watching MSNBC and CNN. Your not one of those people that believes Trump calls Sean Hannity 3 times a day are you?

    No I believe facts.
    Hence why I don't watch Fox News

  • I can personally attest rank doesn't mean squat, just finished my first 10 matches of the season and got put in platinum, that's right. You could end up with a platinum member on your team that only played 10 ranked matches :D

  • BikeIsGone.8675BikeIsGone.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    The system isnt really biased against new players.....its actually quite the opposite.
    Older accounts with lots and lots of (ranked) matches and participation in previous seasons are so much easier for any kind of "ranking algorithm" to sort into a more accurate bracket simply because of the sheer amount of data available.
    As an obvious conclusion, with the system not having even remotely enough reference data, newer accounts are much, much harder to accurately place in a skill-appropriate environment.

    Think of it this way:
    Lets assume we want to determine what level of education two unrelated people have just by having them participate in a pop-quiz with just 10 multiple choice questions. (To keep the resemblance to the PvP placement matches)

    For person A we know: Age, gender, hometown and even have access to their middle school grades.
    For Person B we know: Absolutely nothing.

    While we already have a pretty good Idea on how person A should do in our PoP quiz, we can literally say nothing about person B. Heck, we cant even say if they have finished middle school. And even IF they got a answer right, was that legitimate knowledge, or a lucky shot in the dark?

    Anyway, What I am trying to say is, that it obviously takes a bit more than a measly 10/20/ even 30 games to appropriately determine a players true skill.
    But dont worry: The more data you give the system (=the more matches you play), the more accurate your rating will become.
    So I can almost guarantee, that even tho someone has 10/10 wins in their placements on an alt account, if they finish the season with the minimum game requirement of 120, their winrate will have become far more accurate and realistic.

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    @BikeIsGone.8675 said:
    Anyway, What I am trying to say is, that it obviously takes a bit more than a measly 10/20/ even 30 games to appropriately determine a players true skill.
    But dont worry: The more data you give the system (=the more matches you play), the more accurate your rating will become.
    So I can almost guarantee, that even tho someone has 10/10 wins in their placements on an alt account, if they finish the season with the minimum game requirement of 120, their winrate will have become far more accurate and realistic.

    That is totally different, since your example would fit for an 1v1 arena. We would here put one person B in a group of 4 other persons A or B. Having them get 10/10 doesn't mean that, if we placed the person B with 4 other persons, they would still a similar grade on a 2nd pop-quiz.

    I agree with your point, but it's been shown in many games ( not in GW2 only) that you can have anyone at any rank ( except very top players), and having seasons restarting every 3 months isn't helping having an accurate system. Back in decades, games were like everyone starts at x rating and has to climb. + x for a win, -y for a lose. Nothing else. You have a much more accurate system, but it may be less entertaining since average players have no chance of getting top spots.

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