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Matchmaking algorithm too rigged,


Bast.7253

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Great thread to read about community opinion of returning 5 man right here. -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/31128/bring-back-5-man-ranked-que-needs-to-happen-at-this-point-solo-duo-failed/p1

Wouldn't be much complaint about the skill level of team mates if the it was the player's responsibility to choose those teammates.

myself, & others have also written extensively about the link between population decline & the loss of team queue in this thread also. both threads are very insightful, & useful if one wants to see why pvp is in the state it’s in. the connection between the loss of team queue & the current population state is undeniable.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/36950/is-the-pvp-population-shrinking-and-if-so-why/p1

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@rank eleven monk.9502 said:

@"cptaylor.2670" said:People far worse than me with a lot higher rating.Maybe this seems far-fetched and really unbelievable.. But, WHAT IF they are actually better than you, that's why they are on a lot higher rating, while you are just being biased and overrating yourself, leading to blame the system instead?

Just wondering.

I’m just assuming I am because I stomp them every time I fight them. Perhaps they are better in terms of strategy and knowing exactly where to be and who to focus. But in terms of playing their class or 1 v 1, some of them just aren’t. I guess there are different ways to be better though.

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@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Great thread to read about community opinion of returning 5 man right here. -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/31128/bring-back-5-man-ranked-que-needs-to-happen-at-this-point-solo-duo-failed/p1

Wouldn't be much complaint about the skill level of team mates if the it was the player's responsibility to choose those teammates.Great vote about the community's opinion here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/33233/5-man-queue-season-11-trial

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@rank eleven monk.9502 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Great thread to read about community opinion of returning 5 man right here. ->

Wouldn't be much complaint about the skill level of team mates if the it was the player's responsibility to choose those teammates.Great vote about the community's opinion here:

I'd say so, considering the weight of how many very experienced players are in the YES vote compared to the NO vote.

It's the placebo that causes the new, the casuals, and the intermediates to vote NO.

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I was 1 victory to reach the Gold tier. anet put my in a spriral of losses matching me with the worst players ever (im galss cannon thief and live more than all my team). talk about conspiracy. Now i've lost most of my progress and im in the middle of the rank bar. im so angry!!!! Ill quit of this frustating PvP system,.

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@Axelteas.7192 said:I was 1 victory to reach the Gold tier. anet put my in a spriral of losses matching me with the worst players ever (im galss cannon thief and live more than all my team). talk about conspiracy. Now i've lost most of my progress and im in the middle of the rank bar. im so angry!!!! Ill quit of this frustating PvP system,.

I was the same way. I've been within 5 points of breaking into the next tier 3 times so far this season, and each time I start to get into loss streaks by being teamed with horrible players, while the other team is steam rolling us. Hence why I gave up on the season and will just 4 pip my way to the llama box if I have to.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Great thread to read about community opinion of returning 5 man right here. ->

Wouldn't be much complaint about the skill level of team mates if the it was the player's responsibility to choose those teammates.Great vote about the community's opinion here:

I'd say so, considering the weight of how many very experienced players are in the YES vote compared to the NO vote.

It's the placebo that causes the new, the casuals, and the intermediates to vote NO.

And the fact that if 5 man were enabled, they could no longer match manipulate against the 5 man teams. They would only be able to manipulate vs. the margin of the community who chose not to run 5 man teams.

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Recent history -

Won, got matched up against someone higher and lost, won, matched up against higher and lost, lost again but that was because my team was stupid and fought off point.

Now, the last game. 5 gold 3 people against presumably 4 gold 3 people and someone who is currently ranked 3 in the ratings. Of course it was a loss.

I would rather wait 15 minutes for a queue to be matched with someone within even a fraction of my level than have the team leveled by someone 3 tiers higher and almost legend.

Broken system.

Without that one team making stupid mistakes costing us the game despite losing by 4 solely because I held two people at far for the last 5 minutes while they actually got caps, the win/lose/win/lose would have been highly predictable. But this isn't due to my personal skill level and capping out, this is due to matchmaking favoring one team over the other.

I'm sure I could play better and have certainly made a lot of mistakes. I could handle the other two losses being careless error on my part or not being to a point faster. But being matched up against someone who is near legend is a clear sign that the system isn't doing a good job balancing teams.

Now, I'm stuck wondering since I've lost two in a row if I'm going to start my 8-12 game losing streak back to gold 2 and have to climb my way up again.

Just can't fathom how this system determined our team needed to be up against someone of that rating.

And ended the night with my last two matches having a plat/former legend on my team and both matches being blowouts. It was nice to be on the winning side of the coin, but again isn’t all that fair to the other team. Most of them didn’t realize it at first so I don’t think it was just an issue of feeling discouraged as much as it was skill.

Even having one person on a team leagues higher and the mean or average or whatever deviation being equal in technicality, it seems like it’s still too skewed in these cases.

Anyway. Back to the less personal experiences or opinions from others.

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I just tired of it at all..Every season the same story: lose streak when a month till the end of the season.

Last season I dropped plat till gold 2(or 1?) with macthes history like 4-5 loses -- 1 win -- 4-5 loses -- 1-2 win -- repeat. Now I was around 50/50 for some time and dropped plat to gold 3 several times, however it was really close so with one win I backed to Plat and was there and the end of the day everytime.

It wasn such way till last 2 days: 4 loses - 2 wins - 7 loses. It's just ridiculous! Yesterday I was upset but with optimisn started to play today for..new loses. And now I'm not just upset, I'm really diss'apointed and just don't want to play GW2 for today(or more) anymore!

I don't pretend to play Legendary/top250 or even Plat 3 right now! I was put to gold 3 with score really close to Plat after 10 matches! I always do my best and do hard to get higher! For what purpose? To lose it within 2 days cause amazing matchmaking system!

When I was still Plat and was close to lose it I had people from gold and not even 3rd tier. Now I don't even ask with whom I play: people that fight nowhere and not decapping points / people who run 3 men far or close after mid / people who don't control the mini-map or even don't see enemies that run past them to decap. I have more stories but it doesn't matter.

I just don't understand two things: 1. How they get Plat or Gold with such playstyle? Yes, We all can make mistake, we all can play better today and worse tomorrow cause some aside circumstances. But either way it doesn't justify such playstyle cause even if you are at bad mood or have some problems it will not dtop you to 'hey, I'm new one and don't even know how it works'!

  1. Why did I get these people for 7-8 matches from those 11 loses? Yes some matches I had a good team but we lost anyway cause we did mistakes or else(but such loses are acceptable ofc). But I had only 2-3 matches with such view. Others were like 100-500 / 200-500 etc. It's rare to lose even with 350-500 since almost all matches are just disaster. At least this season I had less AFK-players or DCed players cause last season I met both about every second match. Still it doesn't change anything since lose streak are here anyway!

I want my 50/50 wins/loses(or at least something around) not this random horror!

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Great thread to read about community opinion of returning 5 man right here. ->

Wouldn't be much complaint about the skill level of team mates if the it was the player's responsibility to choose those teammates.Great vote about the community's opinion here:

I'd say so, considering the weight of how many very experienced players are in the YES vote compared to the NO vote.

It's the placebo that causes the new, the casuals, and the intermediates to vote NO.

Sadly even the casuals and intermediates also have a valid opinion.

I would look at gw1 though. RA and TA had similar populations like in that poll. I think a 5 man tier of ranking could be really interesting. But definitely I wouldnt do away with solo queue.

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  • 3 months later...

ITT : Players blaming MATCHMAKING for issues that have little to do with it.

Let's define high rating queues as the queue with most of the top players. You know, the usual top 50 guys. Most of the day, this queue does NOT have 10 players of this level. I'd say when playing around 1600 on EU this is very noticable : you either get a game with random 1500-1600 plats or a game with predominantly 1750 rated players. The quality of the players in these games is very, very different. I'm talking about EU prime now, which is probably the most populated for skilled pvp players. In my experience both NA and off-prime are significantly worse.

The skill difference between random 1550's and high end 1750 players is massive. Those 1750 which "cannot win" according to many in this thread end up winning far more often than not. Look at their winrates - they're generally very high. I get that it feels unfun; but that's not something anyone can change. It's the result of PvP's high end scene completely dying.

So rather than complaining about being in queue against higher rated players; realise that if you don't feed too much you'll get A) carried by the high end players on your team and B) a lot of rating if you win, limited lost rating if you lose. Look at how they play and try to improve. And if you can't deal with the queue at a certain time of day, stop queueing.

I have no issues keeping my rating relatively stable. I know my rating for various classes. It doesn't matter if games are high rating or lower rating queues. It doesn't matter if matches are somewhat unbalanced or very close. If you play consistent and well you should be fine.

The issue is still that many, many low-end players don't grasp the basics of the game. Your matches become a LOT more snowbally and feel "impossible to win" if players refuse to regroup. And I honestly dont see teams regroup while wiping; ever.

Watching streams at 1600 go "MATCHMAKING GAVE ME ANOTHER 500-50 GAME WTF IS THIS SHIT!!!" meanwhile their team lost the initial teamfight and literally never regrouped. They just kept trickling into 5 players on legacy... I mean you can blame matchmaking all you like; and yes matches are inperfect. I agree even 1500's shouldn't play with 1700+ because the skill difference is huge. But most of the snowbally matches are nothing else but L 2 P issues and tilt.

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I'm one of those players with multiple accounts that vary wildly in rating

1767 / 1604 / 1500 Am I a plat 1 2 or 3 player, these accounts remain in these tiers no matter what, I will go on insane losing streaks on account 3, only to barely be able to scrape back up to plat1, my main account however has NO issue remaining plat 3 sometimes upwards of legendary on NA.

Also of note, high rated main account REGULARLY gets other top rated players on the same side team, the other 2 accounts ONLY face high rated players, there is never any one above plat 1 on my side on either of those accounts in any regular capacity. It is a constant stream of gold 2/3 and plat 1 players, against literally anything from double top 20 to a team of 5 bronze, it is arbitrary and a nightmare to play.

RN I'm experiencing a dead lock in 50/50 win rate on 1 of the accounts, the other 2 accounts have a great wl, I guess I just play differently on 1 account. :thinking:

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@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Hasn't there been statements by developers stating that that average distance in player score between highest and lowest players per game is less than 50?

No. The average skill rating between teams is less than 50. The deviation is higher than that. Don't have the number off the top of my head though.

We do our best to get the standard deviation as close as we can though.

And no, I say it often, we don't rig matches to end loss or win streaks. But many people will never believe it.

Except you stated the one issue that all current mmr systems fall victim to, AVERAGE is within 50 which means you can have 1600 1600 1600 1500 1400 and 1800 1700 1200 1300 1500 (didn't do the exact math but you get the picture). The team with the 1200 and 1300 is going to simply get smashed because those 2 players have no idea how to compete in that league and are simply not good enough to be there. Saying you try your hardest to keep games even while using average mmr is laughable at best, use a true mmr system and keep all players within 50 not the average, then you start seeing some good games.

I personally don't care if it takes me 20 minutes to get a queue as long as its not spend 5 minutes in queue and 6 minutes in a match because it was a stomp either way. I stopped playing ranked after a plat 2 match where I was 1659 and we were losing pretty bad when our thief goes man I'm getting killed so easily, an ally asks him his rating and he responds 1362.....we lost that match hard needless to say because he fed voraciously. I took a real long hard look and said this games matchmaking is a literal joke and rating means nothing when I get put with a gold 2 in plat 2 matches during prime time, wasn't even late where population can be used as an excuse. A gold 2 cannot and shouldn't be competing in a match with players 3 tiers over his head, he won't have fun being stomped and the higher mmr players get frustrated at being handed a free loss because average mmr decided to lose them the match.

At the very least give us a freakin check box or something for strict matchmaking like battlerite does so we have the option to sit in queue for a good match or be matched fast for some garbage stomp match.

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@"Delweyn.1309" said:It will never be possible to have perfect matchmaking and so, there will be either too easy or either too hard matches.

If companies would finally stop this nonsense of "team effort" - especially in SoloQ - and finally introduce a personal rating based on your personal results in ALL stats, it would be so much better! On the other hand, restrict the padding to a minium and there you go.

It is insane that your personal rating is influenced by 80% strangers over the internet that you don't know, never meet and don't even speak the same language - or worst, they don't even want to win. That makes me so mad in LoL already and it would drive me nuts in every other game as well.

Personal stats, over a long time, would be a very good indicator. I am talking about a pure mix of damage, deaths and assists, heals and all that. Would take some time to figure out a balance there, but people with a high assist count (so not just only the "big players" of a match) should be rewarded equally. But right now, it's random people together, divide by 5, there you go. Now the MMR changed after the game despite you were only a small part. It's bad in both ways: Winning or losing. RIGHT NOW, the matchmaking COULD start to work, because it can figure out the MMR of the team working together (or not) -- it is disbanded. MMR can only work with less clutter like premades and always shifting teams. It need to be solid. And that would be achieved with a personal rating. You lose your game despite being awesome: Gain MMR. You are bad in 12 games in a row: Your stats lower a bit, it's called "average value" for a reason. You are permanently performing bad? Play against other equally badly performing players - and not being a filler to be carried by way higher team mates.

Right now, this matchmaking is busted and does not even deserve that term. I could flip coins and get better results.

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@Zedek.8932 said:

@"Delweyn.1309" said:It will never be possible to have perfect matchmaking and so, there will be either too easy or either too hard matches.

If companies would finally stop this nonsense of "team effort" - especially in SoloQ - and finally introduce a personal rating based on your personal results in ALL stats, it would be so much better! On the other hand, restrict the padding to a minium and there you go.

It is insane that your personal rating is influenced by 80% strangers over the internet that you don't know, never meet and don't even speak the same language - or worst, they don't even want to win. That makes me so mad in LoL already and it would drive me nuts in every other game as well.

Personal stats, over a long time, would be a very good indicator. I am talking about a pure mix of damage, deaths and assists, heals and all that. Would take some time to figure out a balance there, but people with a high assist count (so not just only the "big players" of a match) should be rewarded equally. But right now, it's random people together, divide by 5, there you go. Now the MMR changed after the game despite you were only a small part. It's bad in both ways: Winning or losing. RIGHT NOW, the matchmaking COULD start to work, because it can figure out the MMR of the team working together (or not) -- it is disbanded. MMR can only work with less clutter like premades and always shifting teams. It need to be solid. And that would be achieved with a personal rating. You lose your game despite being awesome: Gain MMR. You are bad in 12 games in a row: Your stats lower a bit, it's called "average value" for a reason. You are permanently performing bad? Play against other equally badly performing players - and not being a filler to be carried by way higher team mates.

Right now, this matchmaking is busted and does not even deserve that term. I could flip coins and get better results.

Name 1 game with a matchmakin that succesfully worked like that. Pro tip : doesn't exist.

The PLAYERS in GW2 aren't even capable of recognising their own value and mistakes. How do you expect an ALGORITHM to accurately estimate how good you did regardless of your team? You're talking about algorithms for which "we do not have the technology". If anet has the technology, they should (and would) sell it to plenty of much more succesful games and probably get more money off that than GW2.

General algorithms that accurately guess "personal contribution" in complex team games tend to create more problems than they solve.

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@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" Care to tell me why the matchmaker decided this was an appropriate comp for both teams?

Care to tell us what we're looking at? :)

Click the link....

I did. Provide context because unless you expect us to go ingame, add all these players and research their ratings we have no idea what this is supposed to mean.Imagine you at least tell us who's "super high" and "super low" rated here - or something.

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Trevor's right about the system, and the reason the same top players are on top is wintrading.

The system is very easy to manipulate, and getting caught just means creating a new alt. Or doing nothing, since it doesn't result in a ban.

Anet clearly has no intention of fixing this, and wouldn't even if they could because it would make them look incompetent for missing it or allowing it to go on for this long. Find a different game to enjoy, or wintrade like everyone else does. It's that simple.

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