Account suspension discussion [merged] - Page 46 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Account suspension discussion [merged]

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  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    GW2 is rated TEEN (that's 13 YO) ... I get where you are going now ... no where. I love how you throw around terms like 'cheating' and 'spyware'.

    They installed spyware. That's a fact. They spied on your computer outside of their game client and use ToS/EULA to do it. The ToS/EULA is void if agreed upon by someone who legally can't give consent. You dont even affirm you are 18 upon purchase, anywhere on this website, or in the ToS/EULA. This voids the ENTIRE document and agreement making the installation of spyware ILLEGAL.

    Let's not even get into the ramifications of the exploitation underage children to spy on family computers. The banning of the child's account can also be viewed as straight up theft on Arenanet's part since the whole document is null and void.

    There are many reasons why people like myself are upset with what Arenanet chose to do. They went well beyond what is acceptable in the eyes of the public and simply refusing to address it is making it worse then it should be.

    Also people are assuming this is the 1st time Arenanet has done this. No this is the first time they were caught.

    I'll give you credit for the hard work that was put into this conspiracy theory.

    You're right, Anet is big bad Evil, you've uncovered a conspiracy. Now you can uninstall their game and sue them.
    But remember, V.A.C. also reads your processes when playing V.A.C. protected servers. Make sure to annihilate any trace of Steam on your computer, otherwise you might get a virus that will look at all your adult pictures and send them to your friends.
    Also remember to deactivate windows 10 keylogger, it might read your roleplay sessions. Cortana loves that.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    I'll kick that can ...

    What's illegal about what Anet did? They own the accounts, it's their game, it's their assets.

    I think you should rethink this one and edit your reply once you've understood it.

    Thank you

    No, I've thought it through pretty well. We pay for a service. Anet can deny people that service if they abuse it ... so what's your beef? You brought up the issue, now your shying away from the discussion you are challenging OTHER people to have with you about it? How am I not surprised ... I'm calling you bluff buddy. You don't think I understand what I pay for? That's ironic coming from someone that thinks they can ignore the ToS ...

    I get your angle here ... people too young to agree to the ToS ... again, Anet owns those accounts. If the person isn't old enough, Anet can take action on those accounts if they see fit. I don't even see how this relates to topic at hand ... it's a rather embarrassing grasp at straws for you IMO/.

    What he is arguing is that the game is sold to teens, minors, who cannot be bound by a contract of this sort.

    What he is missing is that this makes it even easier for ANet because someone signing a contract, even digitally, that they are not legally permitted to be bound by cannot claim the benefits of legally signing the contract. The benefit here is access to the game.

    In other words, those minkrs (unless it was their parent who agreed for them) were never permitted to access the game and so all that Anet has done is remove access that they never had permission to utilize.

    What he is also missing, with his reference to proof, is that circumstantial evidence is sufficient for conviction if it convinces a nury or judge. Anet, on their own property, are judge and jury.

    No I get that part in full. Read Washington State's Spyware laws

    The spyware laws wherein someone illegally accessing Anet's servers can have their access terminated?

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace. I mean, I don't even really understand this concern at all. The LAST thing Anet wants to do is waste their time surfing through all the personal kitten they 'stole' from you off your hard drive. :rolleyes: That's not where they make money.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    I'll kick that can ...

    What's illegal about what Anet did? They own the accounts, it's their game, it's their assets.

    I think you should rethink this one and edit your reply once you've understood it.

    Thank you

    No, I've thought it through pretty well. We pay for a service. Anet can deny people that service if they abuse it ... so what's your beef? You brought up the issue, now your shying away from the discussion you are challenging OTHER people to have with you about it? How am I not surprised ... I'm calling you bluff buddy. You don't think I understand what I pay for? That's ironic coming from someone that thinks they can ignore the ToS ...

    I get your angle here ... people too young to agree to the ToS ... again, Anet owns those accounts. If the person isn't old enough, Anet can take action on those accounts if they see fit. I don't even see how this relates to topic at hand ... it's a rather embarrassing grasp at straws for you IMO/.

    What he is arguing is that the game is sold to teens, minors, who cannot be bound by a contract of this sort.

    What he is missing is that this makes it even easier for ANet because someone signing a contract, even digitally, that they are not legally permitted to be bound by cannot claim the benefits of legally signing the contract. The benefit here is access to the game.

    In other words, those minkrs (unless it was their parent who agreed for them) were never permitted to access the game and so all that Anet has done is remove access that they never had permission to utilize.

    What he is also missing, with his reference to proof, is that circumstantial evidence is sufficient for conviction if it convinces a nury or judge. Anet, on their own property, are judge and jury.

    No I get that part in full. Read Washington State's Spyware laws

    The spyware laws wherein someone illegally accessing Anet's servers can have their access terminated?

    No they aren't allowed to install any spyware on a computer without expressed consent. Start applying your ToS/EULA argument to any crimes against children being legal as long as they child consents. Start looking bigger and NON techy at the situation.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

  • Check out Axios yesterday - most people in the U.S. think social media sites should be regulated. I'm on a VPN right now, have never belonged to a social media service and fight a (probably futile) fight to keep google at arms length. Some of us take our privacy seriously. If an MMO breaches my privacy it is probably because of people who think they should be able to because "hey everybody does it".

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    Nevertheless, looks like it's time for you to unplug if your conspiracy theory about Anet taking your personal information and selling it are going to run wild.

    @ffletcher.3468 said:
    Check out Axios yesterday - most people in the U.S. think social media sites should be regulated. I'm on a VPN right now, have never belonged to a social media service and fight a (probably futile) fight to keep google at arms length. Some of us take our privacy seriously. If an MMO breaches my privacy it is probably because of people who think they should be able to because "hey everybody does it".

    Actually, i think it's more of a case of people are WILLING to give Anet an inch so they can continue to provide them with high quality entertainment.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • mrstealth.6701mrstealth.6701 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Charrbeque.8729 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Fun fact: people who weren't cheating got wrongfully banned

    Fun fact: you don't actually know that. You only know there were people that were claiming to be wrongfully banned, and that's definitely not the same thing.

    Fun Fact: Anet confirmed it

    Where?

    It's not hard proof for any specific case, but Anet's statement on the ban wave shows their intent to ban people that were not necessarily cheating in GW2. Guilt was assumed based on the presence of a program that could, among its other more common/benign uses, be used to cheat in GW2.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/476255/#Comment_476255

    The problem is, people fail to realize that cheat software used on this game is specifically designed NOT to be detected, or any kind of evidence that can be used against the players using such software.

    If someone is using speedhacks and gets reported, a GM would take a look and not find evidence that banned software is being used. In such a case, they err on the side of caution and assume the player might be just lagging, in order to prevent the risk of wrongfully banning a player. Then people keep reporting and keep complaining, and ArenaNet still can't find evidence that someone is actually cheating (because that's how the kitten software is designed), and continue to do nothing about the cheaters.

    There have been countless times where people have posted video evidence and/or screenshots of cheaters on Reddit, and a dev posted that they took action against the account(s). It gives some players the impression that they don't care about cheaters, and only take action when a player posts evidence in order to prevent the company from looking bad.

    The bottom line is, players are constantly accusing ArenaNet of not caring about cheaters, or doing anything about it, and I'm sure at least a few players have left the game for good over it. When they finally do something about it, the whole community is up in arms over it.

    Do you want them to stop the massive cheating that's been going on for years or not? Make up your freaking minds.

    The people who got busted cheating are just angry they can't have their way. Some people are going out of their way to throw around wild accusations and conspiracy theories against ArenaNet in order to make them look bad.

    I swear. It's 2016 all over again. The difference being that so far, nobody has accused ArenaNet of colluding with Russia to steal the game from the cheaters.

    That's more of a reason to rely on the combination of game logs and process detection, instead of just one or other. Though, Anet has already given up on the process detection, having removed it from the client a few weeks after it was added.

    A player using speedhacks is likely going to at least be suspicious as far as ingame logging/data goes, though as you point out, that might not be solid enough data to ban them. But if they are also detected with a known cheat process running, the evidence against them is considerably stronger. Having more evidence and a higher degree of certainly that the person is cheating should be a win-win.

    Anet seems to have gone the opposite direction in this incident. Going by the wording of their statement, they were only using the presence of a cheat process to determine who to ban. Had they also looked at ingame log evidence, they could have more evidence against actual cheaters, and possibly been able to clear others of the accusation. A player flagged with CheatEngine (which has uses outside of GW2) running, but nowhere near any thresholds of being suspected of speedhack use ingame is likely innocent. There will always be some grey area, but it should at least cut down on false positives. Ignoring the ingame data is just asking for false positives when looking at something like CheatEngine.

    Add the fact that they are not accepting appeals for this, and you've got a recipe for community outrage.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    So you're using Tails, right? You're not on Windows, right? How do you play the game then?

    Also, explain to me how they can detect if someone is checking the gear of others in pvp match from the server.
    This stuff doesn't even require to modify in game memory, it's literally invisible for the server.

    What the so called "spyware" gathers:
    PROCESS1: a12915a275784ad43945f4eb39edea63
    PROCESS2: 43372565de379193bd63be9fab205c8d
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728
    PROCESS5: 02239cef0079a65a634962576c575bb6

    This is what is sent to their server (filtered out)
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a (ex for CE)
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728 (ex for UNF)

    And you're talking about privacy violation.
    Again, if you were nearly as cautious as you say you are about your private info, you would understand why this is nothing. On the contrary though, they (and other companies) also log your personal LOGS in game, which there... will contain a LOT more information.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    Nevertheless, looks like it's time for you to unplug if your conspiracy theory about Anet taking your personal information and selling it are going to run wild.

    Again you live how you want to I will live how I want to. I won't demand you live like me nor will you demand I live like you. Privacy, private property, etc. are human rights protected in many nations. If you think people should sacrifice that for your gaming pleasure that is very wrong. Again you can give up your privacy, freedom, etc. I don't care.....you can't expect other's to have too as well.

    Again Thank you

    @ffletcher.3468 said:
    Check out Axios yesterday - most people in the U.S. think social media sites should be regulated. I'm on a VPN right now, have never belonged to a social media service and fight a (probably futile) fight to keep google at arms length. Some of us take our privacy seriously. If an MMO breaches my privacy it is probably because of people who think they should be able to because "hey everybody does it".

    This is my point.

    Thank You

  • Inculpatus cedo.9234Inculpatus cedo.9234 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The OP is mistaken if he/she believes owning more than one account is against the ToS. Or playing on more than one account, or more than 1 account sharing an IP address.
    Perhaps, it would behoove them to read the EULA/ToS/CoC etc. to become more familiar with the exact terms.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    Nevertheless, looks like it's time for you to unplug if your conspiracy theory about Anet taking your personal information and selling it are going to run wild.

    If you think people should sacrifice that for your gaming pleasure that is very wrong.

    You're right, that would be wrong ... but I'm not saying that ... I'm saying you have a CHOICE and if you don't like the way you and your privacy are treated by a service provider, you can choose to not use the service. I don't even know why I have to explain that obvious conclusion to you. It probably would have saved 20 pages in this thread. Clearly you have zero tolerance ... so I don't even know why you are even taking a risk posting on the forum ... or presumably still playing the game? /shrug

    I don't really like my privacy invaded either ... but then again, I'm a pretty reasonable person and have no doubt that Anet could care less about my photos of my garden, my son's 1st day at school or what recipes I have written up; I'm betting that this was a costly activity for them and the less time they wasted 'poking around' my and everyone else's computer for 'the juicy stuff', the better it was for everyone. They looked for something very specific and if they didn't find it, they moved on. Don't worry though .. .I'm sure they went through your stuff pretty thoroughly :wink:

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    So you're using Tails, right? You're not on Windows, right? How do you play the game then?

    Also, explain to me how they can detect if someone is checking the gear of others in pvp match from the server.
    This stuff doesn't even require to modify in game memory, it's literally invisible for the server.

    What the so called "spyware" gathers:
    PROCESS1: a12915a275784ad43945f4eb39edea63
    PROCESS2: 43372565de379193bd63be9fab205c8d
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728
    PROCESS5: 02239cef0079a65a634962576c575bb6

    This is what is sent to their server (filtered out)
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a (ex for CE)
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728 (ex for UNF)

    And you're talking about privacy violation.
    Again, if you were nearly as cautious as you say you are about your private info, you would understand why this is nothing. On the contrary though, they (and other companies) also log your personal LOGS in game, which there... will contain a LOT more information.

    Again do you agree to a 6 month ban starting tomorrow?
    Again address the legality of installing spyware on children's computers
    Again please learn the definition of what a social justice warrior actually is

    Someone detecting your gear in a game isn't going outside the actual client to get it. You are arguing in completely the wrong direction. Your spyware gathers section should be Process 1-200 or more most of which aren't even pertaining to the GW2 client.

  • mrstealth.6701mrstealth.6701 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against crimes against children. Having a child sign a contract won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.
    But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

    Link it

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

    Have fun reading. Not doing the rest of your homework for you.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    So you're using Tails, right? You're not on Windows, right? How do you play the game then?

    Also, explain to me how they can detect if someone is checking the gear of others in pvp match from the server.
    This stuff doesn't even require to modify in game memory, it's literally invisible for the server.

    What the so called "spyware" gathers:
    PROCESS1: a12915a275784ad43945f4eb39edea63
    PROCESS2: 43372565de379193bd63be9fab205c8d
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728
    PROCESS5: 02239cef0079a65a634962576c575bb6

    This is what is sent to their server (filtered out)
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a (ex for CE)
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728 (ex for UNF)

    And you're talking about privacy violation.
    Again, if you were nearly as cautious as you say you are about your private info, you would understand why this is nothing. On the contrary though, they (and other companies) also log your personal LOGS in game, which there... will contain a LOT more information.

    Again do you agree to a 6 month ban starting tomorrow?
    Again address the legality of installing spyware on children's computers
    Again please learn the definition of what a social justice warrior actually is

    Someone detecting your gear in a game isn't going outside the actual client to get it. You are arguing in completely the wrong direction. Your spyware gathers section should be Process 1-200 or more most of which aren't even pertaining to the GW2 client.

    You're not being honest here ... for someone so seriously concerned about their privacy, what Anet did is the least of your worries. Sounds to me like you have some reading to do to get up to speed on a more secure internet experience.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge? ... and somehow we should be questioning Anet's legality when (in the SMALL instance) that happens? What shape is the Earth where you live?

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.
    But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

    Link it

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

    Have fun reading. Not doing the rest of your homework for you.

    Looked through that and didn't see anything that supports your argument.

    I may missed it when I originally read through it so I asked for you to maybe post a different one? Again I might not be seeing what you're referencing so please point it out.

    Thanks!!

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

    A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

  • mrstealth.6701mrstealth.6701 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    Nevertheless, looks like it's time for you to unplug if your conspiracy theory about Anet taking your personal information and selling it are going to run wild.

    @ffletcher.3468 said:
    Check out Axios yesterday - most people in the U.S. think social media sites should be regulated. I'm on a VPN right now, have never belonged to a social media service and fight a (probably futile) fight to keep google at arms length. Some of us take our privacy seriously. If an MMO breaches my privacy it is probably because of people who think they should be able to because "hey everybody does it".

    Actually, i think it's more of a case of people are WILLING to give Anet an inch so they can continue to provide them with high quality entertainment.

    I'm all for privacy, but I'm fine with Anet having an anti-cheat system that sees other processes on my PC as long as it only tells Anet when it finds cheat software. This is how Anet's system appears to work.

    Now, I would have a problem, and consider it spyware, if Anet was being sent the full list of processes running on my PC. All of the processes that have nothing to do with cheating in their game are none of their business.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    So you're using Tails, right? You're not on Windows, right? How do you play the game then?

    Also, explain to me how they can detect if someone is checking the gear of others in pvp match from the server.
    This stuff doesn't even require to modify in game memory, it's literally invisible for the server.

    What the so called "spyware" gathers:
    PROCESS1: a12915a275784ad43945f4eb39edea63
    PROCESS2: 43372565de379193bd63be9fab205c8d
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728
    PROCESS5: 02239cef0079a65a634962576c575bb6

    This is what is sent to their server (filtered out)
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a (ex for CE)
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728 (ex for UNF)

    And you're talking about privacy violation.
    Again, if you were nearly as cautious as you say you are about your private info, you would understand why this is nothing. On the contrary though, they (and other companies) also log your personal LOGS in game, which there... will contain a LOT more information.

    Again do you agree to a 6 month ban starting tomorrow?
    Again address the legality of installing spyware on children's computers
    Again please learn the definition of what a social justice warrior actually is

    Someone detecting your gear in a game isn't going outside the actual client to get it. You are arguing in completely the wrong direction. Your spyware gathers section should be Process 1-200 or more most of which aren't even pertaining to the GW2 client.

    • CF my last post. This is by far the most ridiculous stuff you keep bringing up, and definitely worth calling you cyber-kitten for. Also
    • Anet can just kick them, and should.
    • I said cyber-kitten, or a guy that doesn't the difference between what companies CAN do and WILL do.

    • Obtaining gear of someone else gives you an unfair advantage. Not everything can be server side or lag would be terrible.

    • In order to compare a list of banned hash you need to... actually generate the hash of your processes first.
  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    Nevertheless, looks like it's time for you to unplug if your conspiracy theory about Anet taking your personal information and selling it are going to run wild.

    @ffletcher.3468 said:
    Check out Axios yesterday - most people in the U.S. think social media sites should be regulated. I'm on a VPN right now, have never belonged to a social media service and fight a (probably futile) fight to keep google at arms length. Some of us take our privacy seriously. If an MMO breaches my privacy it is probably because of people who think they should be able to because "hey everybody does it".

    Actually, i think it's more of a case of people are WILLING to give Anet an inch so they can continue to provide them with high quality entertainment.

    I'm all for privacy, but I'm fine with Anet having an anti-cheat system that sees other processes on my PC as long as it only tells Anet when it finds cheat software. This is how Anet's system appears to work.

    Now, I would have a problem, and consider it spyware, if Anet was being sent the full list of processes running on my PC. All of the processes that have nothing to do with cheating in their game are none of their business.

    This is your right to give up your privacy.

    I support your stance

    You cannot expect me to give it up as well. This is the basis of the debate.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.
    But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

    Link it

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

    Have fun reading. Not doing the rest of your homework for you.

    Looked through that and didn't see anything that supports your argument.

    I may missed it when I originally read through it so I asked for you to maybe post a different one? Again I might not be seeing what you're referencing so please point it out.

    Thanks!!

    You clearly are playing daft now. So i guess i have to be frank to get it through.

    1. ACCOUNT ACCESS AND PERMISSIBLE ASSIGNMENT By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are: 1) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself; 2) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game; or 3) a minor age 13-17 who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9(c) below. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE. Each Account may only be used by one person. If a minor has been allowed access to an Account under Section 9(c) below, only that minor may use the Account thereafter. Except as provided in Section 9(c) below, You may not make any assignment or transfer of rights, obligations or liabilities related to this agreement and any attempt by You to do so is null and void. If You are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game, You can choose to allow use of Your Account by that minor instead of Yourself subject to the following provisions: You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor; It is acknowledged and further agreed by the adult that both the adult and the minor are bound by all provisions of any agreement for which that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” and that the adult has explained the provisions of this Section 9 to the minor, including the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible under all the provisions of this agreement. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and further agreed that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes both the adult at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, as well as the minor age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game; In consideration for ArenaNet allowing access to the Game by a minor, and in addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, the foregoing adult hereby guarantees and agrees to pay for any and all liabilities of any nature whatsoever incurred under this agreement and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect thereto; and The foregoing adult acknowledges and understands that this guarantee is a continuing, unconditional, and irrevocable guarantee to pay for and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect to any claim related to such liabilities. All rights, remedies, and recourses afforded ArenaNet by reason of this guarantee or otherwise are separate, cumulative, and non-exclusive. Such rights, remedies, and recourses may be pursued separately, successively, or concurrently, and any action taken by ArenaNet with respect to such rights, remedies, and recourses shall in no way limit or prejudice any other legal or equitable right, remedy, or recourse which ArenaNet may have. You acknowledge that the Game is not intended for minors under age 13, and You will not allow access to the Game, or the viewing of any display thereof, by any minor under age 13.
  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

    A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

    Underage ... I guess we can add that word to your 'abused' as well. Underage for what? Is that just a convenient label you applied to make another fantastic argument here?

    You know what IS interesting though ... Anet has a privacy policy. you should read it; it might save some time; it's in that thing called the UA that you told us isn't relevant in your country. It talks about everything we are discussing, including 'underage' children and how their privacy relates to the game. It brings up a good question; if the UA isn't valid where you are, why would you expect it to protect you as a client? Seems to me that I would be moving out of whatever country that is real fast if I was so seriously concerned about my privacy and things that have User Agreements on the internet. /shrug

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • PyrateSilly.4710PyrateSilly.4710 Member ✭✭✭

    The only way to have privacy - complete privacy - is to live completely off the grid on a very large piece of property with no one around you to see you and document your day. If you are not doing that and are online doing things then you have no real privacy, no matter what you think you have done to protect yourself from being found and your privacy destroyed.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    This might have been a big deal 15 years ago you know ... do you understand how much of your information is actually out in cyberspace, even if you just casually surf the web? If your concern for privacy and personal property is so strong that you have a problem with what Anet did here, I'm surprised you're even connected to the internet at all.

    The solution for you seems really simple to me ... don't patronize companies that use your 'personal' information in cyberspace.

    I take very extreme precautions and actions to ensure my privacy. You may not but I do

    You do? Not if you play MMO's you don't. That's not new either.

    Actually I don't play the more popular MMO's who've been known to use even less invasive anti cheat methods.

    I take my privacy and invasion of my personal property very seriously

    So you're using Tails, right? You're not on Windows, right? How do you play the game then?

    Also, explain to me how they can detect if someone is checking the gear of others in pvp match from the server.
    This stuff doesn't even require to modify in game memory, it's literally invisible for the server.

    What the so called "spyware" gathers:
    PROCESS1: a12915a275784ad43945f4eb39edea63
    PROCESS2: 43372565de379193bd63be9fab205c8d
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728
    PROCESS5: 02239cef0079a65a634962576c575bb6

    This is what is sent to their server (filtered out)
    PROCESS3: 1d6c556f382800c56ba0235dd7fd735a (ex for CE)
    PROCESS4: 7870e8ffc3b7ba8c2ebb03f2c3486728 (ex for UNF)

    And you're talking about privacy violation.
    Again, if you were nearly as cautious as you say you are about your private info, you would understand why this is nothing. On the contrary though, they (and other companies) also log your personal LOGS in game, which there... will contain a LOT more information.

    Again do you agree to a 6 month ban starting tomorrow?
    Again address the legality of installing spyware on children's computers
    Again please learn the definition of what a social justice warrior actually is

    Someone detecting your gear in a game isn't going outside the actual client to get it. You are arguing in completely the wrong direction. Your spyware gathers section should be Process 1-200 or more most of which aren't even pertaining to the GW2 client.

    • CF my last post. This is by far the most ridiculous stuff you keep bringing up, and definitely worth calling you cyber-kitten for. Also
    • Anet can just kick them, and should.
    • I said cyber-kitten, or a guy that doesn't the difference between what companies CAN do and WILL do.

    • Obtaining gear of someone else gives you an unfair advantage. Not everything can be server side or lag would be terrible.

    • In order to compare a list of banned hash you need to... actually generate the hash of your processes first.

    Again you need to learn the definition of the terms you apply to people.

    We both agree that cheating is bad. We differ in opinion that giving up innocent people's privacy is a good thing to catch a minority of people especially when there are less intrusive ways to do it.

    I think we all need to calm down. I also think the apologists need to understand most people in the world value privacy way more then they do. There are rights and laws in each country.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    Its accepted as the truth because it's been proven.

    Anet never proved a single person cheated

    You're basing your "proven" and "truth" claims on an announcement by the community moderator and information given to people whose accounts were suspended. That does not constitute proof that ANet didn't check further into individual cases, and just opted not to tell anyone the other steps they took. If I were communicating with people I knew had hacked the game, there's no way I would tell them anything I didn't have to.

    It's been confirmed that even having a process open would ping the spyware.

    No one knows, except ANet, what ANet did after they received the data showing process X was running on User Y's computer concurrently with GW2 for Z time. Come back when you've got that info. Until then, or unless ANet says more, you have no proof.

    No the program was read as to what it did by someone who does it for a living. It was also confirmed once they saw it read the processes not related to the GW2 client.

    Again all fact

    So what happened to the data sent to the server? That's right, the reverse engineer does not know, and you don't know.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    You know what IS interesting though ... Anet has a privacy policy. you should read it; it might save some time; it's in that thing called the UA that you told us isn't relevant in your country. It talks about everything we are discussing, including 'underage' children and how their privacy relates to the game. It brings up a good question; if the UA isn't valid where you are, why would you expect it to protect you as a client?

    Ironically, where he is as stated by his read washington's privacy laws is exactly where Anet's lawyers are and like whom they consulted with when drafting the User Agreement to begin with.

    So unless Bellevue, WA magically teleported to North Korea it's unlikely that the laws concerning his complaint are being infringed on in any way shape or form.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

    A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

    Underage ... I guess we can add that word to your 'abused' as well. Underage for what? Is that just a convenient label you applied to make another fantastic argument here?

    You know what IS interesting though ... Anet has a privacy policy. you should read it; it might save some time; it's in that thing called the UA that you told us isn't relevant in your country. It talks about everything we are discussing, including 'underage' children and how their privacy relates to the game. It brings up a good question; if the UA isn't valid where you are, why would you expect it to protect you as a client? Seems to me that I would be moving out of whatever country that is real fast if I was so seriously concerned about my privacy and things that have User Agreements on the internet. /shrug

    Start linking start quoting.

    I normally go the extra mile myself but you seem to believe a 13 year old isn't a child and can give consent.

    Also please don't assume things about me or "put words in my mouth"

    Thank you

  • mrstealth.6701mrstealth.6701 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

    A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

    Underage ... I guess we can add that word to your 'abused' as well. Underage for what? Is that just a convenient label you applied to make another fantastic argument here?

    You know what IS interesting though ... Anet has a privacy policy. you should read it; it might save some time; it's in that thing called the UA that you told us isn't relevant in your country. It talks about everything we are discussing, including 'underage' children and how their privacy relates to the game. It brings up a good question; if the UA isn't valid where you are, why would you expect it to protect you as a client? Seems to me that I would be moving out of whatever country that is real fast if I was so seriously concerned about my privacy and things that have User Agreements on the internet. /shrug

    Start linking start quoting.

    I normally go the extra mile myself but you seem to believe a 13 year old isn't a child and can give consent.

    Also please don't assume things about me or "put words in my mouth"

    Thank you

    I don't have to assume things about you ... you told us these things, various times, clearly. I mean, you don't seem to get that the UA protects you and Anet at the same time; you outright dismissed it because of where you live ... now you're finding 'problems' with how the game deals with things like privacy, age and cheating ... and all these things that are outlined in it ... that's not a coincidence at all. You just play whatever side of the coin works in your favour. This is just conspiracy theory running wild.

    Frankly, it's all rather contradictory to me ... you take your privacy super seriously ... and play MMO's and be connected to the internet, continue patronizing organizations that you feel violate you privacy, yet have no idea what their privacy policy is or where to find it when you agree to the UA or question it. Personally, I think you're just making a stubborn fuss because it bothers you that you have these obviously contradictory positions.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.
    But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

    Link it

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

    Have fun reading. Not doing the rest of your homework for you.

    Looked through that and didn't see anything that supports your argument.

    I may missed it when I originally read through it so I asked for you to maybe post a different one? Again I might not be seeing what you're referencing so please point it out.

    Thanks!!

    You clearly are playing daft now. So i guess i have to be frank to get it through.

    1. ACCOUNT ACCESS AND PERMISSIBLE ASSIGNMENT By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are: 1) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself; 2) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game; or 3) a minor age 13-17 who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9(c) below. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE. Each Account may only be used by one person. If a minor has been allowed access to an Account under Section 9(c) below, only that minor may use the Account thereafter. Except as provided in Section 9(c) below, You may not make any assignment or transfer of rights, obligations or liabilities related to this agreement and any attempt by You to do so is null and void. If You are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game, You can choose to allow use of Your Account by that minor instead of Yourself subject to the following provisions: You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor; It is acknowledged and further agreed by the adult that both the adult and the minor are bound by all provisions of any agreement for which that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” and that the adult has explained the provisions of this Section 9 to the minor, including the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible under all the provisions of this agreement. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and further agreed that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes both the adult at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, as well as the minor age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game; In consideration for ArenaNet allowing access to the Game by a minor, and in addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, the foregoing adult hereby guarantees and agrees to pay for any and all liabilities of any nature whatsoever incurred under this agreement and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect thereto; and The foregoing adult acknowledges and understands that this guarantee is a continuing, unconditional, and irrevocable guarantee to pay for and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect to any claim related to such liabilities. All rights, remedies, and recourses afforded ArenaNet by reason of this guarantee or otherwise are separate, cumulative, and non-exclusive. Such rights, remedies, and recourses may be pursued separately, successively, or concurrently, and any action taken by ArenaNet with respect to such rights, remedies, and recourses shall in no way limit or prejudice any other legal or equitable right, remedy, or recourse which ArenaNet may have. You acknowledge that the Game is not intended for minors under age 13, and You will not allow access to the Game, or the viewing of any display thereof, by any minor under age 13.

    I read that but it doesn't protect them installing spyware. The game is legally bought by children. Anyone 13 years of age can walk into a video game store and buy GW2.

    Installing spyware onto a computer in Washington state w/out consent is illegal. The fact that a underage child can buy GW2 since it is rated TEEN pretty much negates the impunity to legal ramifications of breaking that law.

    Imagine a child walking into a store and buying a bottle of Coke. They open the coke and drink some then set it aside. The company then pours rum into the bottle. Now the child signed a contract saying they are of legal age to drink and gave permission for Coca-cola to add random stuff to their beverage. So by your argument that is legal.

    Do you understand now the flaw in your argument. If the game was rated M for mature then you'd have an argument.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Looked through that and didn't see anything that supports your argument.

    I may missed it when I originally read through it so I asked for you to maybe post a different one? Again I might not be seeing what you're referencing so please point it out.

    Thanks!!

    1. ACCOUNT ACCESS AND PERMISSIBLE ASSIGNMENT

    By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are: 1) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself; 2) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game; or 3) a minor age 13-17 who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9(c) below. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE.
    Each Account may only be used by one person. If a minor has been allowed access to an Account under Section 9(c) below, only that minor may use the Account thereafter. Except as provided in Section 9(c) below, You may not make any assignment or transfer of rights, obligations or liabilities related to this agreement and any attempt by You to do so is null and void.
    If You are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game, You can choose to allow use of Your Account by that minor instead of Yourself subject to the following provisions:
    You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf;
    You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf;
    You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor;
    It is acknowledged and further agreed by the adult that both the adult and the minor are bound by all provisions of any agreement for which that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” and that the adult has explained the provisions of this Section 9 to the minor, including the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible under all the provisions of this agreement. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and further agreed that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes both the adult at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, as well as the minor age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game;
    In consideration for ArenaNet allowing access to the Game by a minor, and in addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, the foregoing adult hereby guarantees and agrees to pay for any and all liabilities of any nature whatsoever incurred under this agreement and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect thereto; and
    The foregoing adult acknowledges and understands that this guarantee is a continuing, unconditional, and irrevocable guarantee to pay for and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect to any claim related to such liabilities. All rights, remedies, and recourses afforded ArenaNet by reason of this guarantee or otherwise are separate, cumulative, and non-exclusive. Such rights, remedies, and recourses may be pursued separately, successively, or concurrently, and any action taken by ArenaNet with respect to such rights, remedies, and recourses shall in no way limit or prejudice any other legal or equitable right, remedy, or recourse which ArenaNet may have.

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Where is that? I can't seem to find it.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.
    But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

    Link it

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

    Have fun reading. Not doing the rest of your homework for you.

    Looked through that and didn't see anything that supports your argument.

    I may missed it when I originally read through it so I asked for you to maybe post a different one? Again I might not be seeing what you're referencing so please point it out.

    Thanks!!

    You clearly are playing daft now. So i guess i have to be frank to get it through.

    1. ACCOUNT ACCESS AND PERMISSIBLE ASSIGNMENT By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are: 1) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself; 2) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game; or 3) a minor age 13-17 who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9(c) below. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE. Each Account may only be used by one person. If a minor has been allowed access to an Account under Section 9(c) below, only that minor may use the Account thereafter. Except as provided in Section 9(c) below, You may not make any assignment or transfer of rights, obligations or liabilities related to this agreement and any attempt by You to do so is null and void. If You are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game, You can choose to allow use of Your Account by that minor instead of Yourself subject to the following provisions: You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor; It is acknowledged and further agreed by the adult that both the adult and the minor are bound by all provisions of any agreement for which that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” and that the adult has explained the provisions of this Section 9 to the minor, including the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible under all the provisions of this agreement. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and further agreed that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes both the adult at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, as well as the minor age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game; In consideration for ArenaNet allowing access to the Game by a minor, and in addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, the foregoing adult hereby guarantees and agrees to pay for any and all liabilities of any nature whatsoever incurred under this agreement and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect thereto; and The foregoing adult acknowledges and understands that this guarantee is a continuing, unconditional, and irrevocable guarantee to pay for and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect to any claim related to such liabilities. All rights, remedies, and recourses afforded ArenaNet by reason of this guarantee or otherwise are separate, cumulative, and non-exclusive. Such rights, remedies, and recourses may be pursued separately, successively, or concurrently, and any action taken by ArenaNet with respect to such rights, remedies, and recourses shall in no way limit or prejudice any other legal or equitable right, remedy, or recourse which ArenaNet may have. You acknowledge that the Game is not intended for minors under age 13, and You will not allow access to the Game, or the viewing of any display thereof, by any minor under age 13.

    I read that but it doesn't protect them installing spyware. The game is legally bought by children. Anyone 13 years of age can walk into a video game store and buy GW2.

    Installing spyware onto a computer in Washington state w/out consent is illegal. The fact that a underage child can buy GW2 since it is rated TEEN pretty much negates the impunity to legal ramifications of breaking that law.

    Imagine a child walking into a store and buying a bottle of Coke. They open the coke and drink some then set it aside. The company then pours rum into the bottle. Now the child signed a contract saying they are of legal age to drink and gave permission for Coca-cola to add random stuff to their beverage. So by your argument that is legal.

    Do you understand now the flaw in your argument. If the game was rated M for mature then you'd have an argument.

    Okay it's clear as day you either cannot read, wont read or cannot comprehend what's written in the user agreement.

    If you are not of legal age to create an account, then you must have a legal guardian who can. A legal guardian is always over the age of 18. Once they give consent for you it doesnt matter because you've consented to all terms, not some.

    If you are 13 and clicked okay anyway then you lied and the contract is voided.

    Additionally the game stated in pretty clear as day terms "You acknowledge that the Game is not intended for minors under age 13, and You will not allow access to the Game, or the viewing of any display thereof, by any minor under age 13."
    Again if you're found to be underage, or lying you violated the contract and Anet can terminate for that alone, leaving the net result being worse than if you had actually cheated.

    So spare me the "Think of the children" defense. It doesn't hold a cup of water.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company.

    Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you

    Opening paragraph mate

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

    A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

    Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.
    But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

    Link it

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/

    Have fun reading. Not doing the rest of your homework for you.

    Looked through that and didn't see anything that supports your argument.

    I may missed it when I originally read through it so I asked for you to maybe post a different one? Again I might not be seeing what you're referencing so please point it out.

    Thanks!!

    You clearly are playing daft now. So i guess i have to be frank to get it through.

    1. ACCOUNT ACCESS AND PERMISSIBLE ASSIGNMENT By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are: 1) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself; 2) at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game; or 3) a minor age 13-17 who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9(c) below. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE. Each Account may only be used by one person. If a minor has been allowed access to an Account under Section 9(c) below, only that minor may use the Account thereafter. Except as provided in Section 9(c) below, You may not make any assignment or transfer of rights, obligations or liabilities related to this agreement and any attempt by You to do so is null and void. If You are at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of Yourself and a minor age 13-17 for whom You are legally permitted to allow access to the Game, You can choose to allow use of Your Account by that minor instead of Yourself subject to the following provisions: You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf; You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor; It is acknowledged and further agreed by the adult that both the adult and the minor are bound by all provisions of any agreement for which that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” and that the adult has explained the provisions of this Section 9 to the minor, including the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible under all the provisions of this agreement. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and further agreed that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes both the adult at least 18 years of age and otherwise legally competent to read, understand and accept the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, as well as the minor age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game; In consideration for ArenaNet allowing access to the Game by a minor, and in addition to the provisions of Section 13 below, the foregoing adult hereby guarantees and agrees to pay for any and all liabilities of any nature whatsoever incurred under this agreement and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect thereto; and The foregoing adult acknowledges and understands that this guarantee is a continuing, unconditional, and irrevocable guarantee to pay for and to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet with respect to any claim related to such liabilities. All rights, remedies, and recourses afforded ArenaNet by reason of this guarantee or otherwise are separate, cumulative, and non-exclusive. Such rights, remedies, and recourses may be pursued separately, successively, or concurrently, and any action taken by ArenaNet with respect to such rights, remedies, and recourses shall in no way limit or prejudice any other legal or equitable right, remedy, or recourse which ArenaNet may have. You acknowledge that the Game is not intended for minors under age 13, and You will not allow access to the Game, or the viewing of any display thereof, by any minor under age 13.

    I read that but it doesn't protect them installing spyware. The game is legally bought by children. Anyone 13 years of age can walk into a video game store and buy GW2.

    Installing spyware onto a computer in Washington state w/out consent is illegal. The fact that a underage child can buy GW2 since it is rated TEEN pretty much negates the impunity to legal ramifications of breaking that law.

    Imagine a child walking into a store and buying a bottle of Coke. They open the coke and drink some then set it aside. The company then pours rum into the bottle. Now the child signed a contract saying they are of legal age to drink and gave permission for Coca-cola to add random stuff to their beverage. So by your argument that is legal.

    Do you understand now the flaw in your argument. If the game was rated M for mature then you'd have an argument.

    Okay it's clear as day you either cannot read, wont read or cannot comprehend what's written in the user agreement.

    If you are not of legal age to create an account, then you must have a legal guardian who can. A legal guardian is always over the age of 18. Once they give consent for you it doesnt matter because you've consented to all terms, not some.

    If you are 13 and clicked okay anyway then you lied and the contract is voided.

    Additionally the game stated in pretty clear as day terms "You acknowledge that the Game is not intended for minors under age 13, and You will not allow access to the Game, or the viewing of any display thereof, by any minor under age 13."
    Again if you're found to be underage, or lying you violated the contract and Anet can terminate for that alone, leaving the net result being worse than if you had actually cheated.

    So spare me the "Think of the children" defense. It doesn't hold a cup of water.

    The game is marketed to and legally bought by underage children. You are not addressing this.

    It doesn't matter if it says you need an adult to make an account.

    Address the real issue.

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

    What is the ESRB rating of GW2?
    Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

    I thank you all for participating

    I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

    Let's go

    Anyone?

    It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

    The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

    The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

    Get where I'm going now?

    The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

    Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

    Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

    A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

    Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud.

    Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks.

    It's real simple.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company.

    Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you

    Opening paragraph mate

    That paragraph supports his position, not yours.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Address the real issue.

    Sure thing.

    The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation.
    Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law.

    So stores are able to sell to whomever they want.
    That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage.

    But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Address the real issue.

    Sure thing.

    The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation.
    Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law.

    So stores are able to sell to whomever they want.
    That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage.

    But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time.

    Understanding ... the kind of stuff that crushes Conspiracy Theory.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company.

    Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you

    Opening paragraph mate

    That paragraph supports his position, not yours.

    No it literally says in game whereas he said not in game

  • Jinks.2057Jinks.2057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Address the real issue.

    Sure thing.

    The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation.
    Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law.

    So stores are able to sell to whomever they want.
    That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage.

    But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time.

    Whats the first thing you see in that video?

    I rest my case.

    https://www.gamestop.com/stores/playground/parents.aspx
    https://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2008/04/29/mature-merchandise-music-video-games-movies

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @mrstealth.6701 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Let me be clear. I do not want cheaters in any game nor do I support cheaters.

    What I support more is everyone's right to privacy and their personal property. There are many ways to enforce anti cheating w/out doing what they did. The problem is they very publicly state they are in contact and share your info with online companies who do advertising/research/etc.

    Look at the whole picture.

    I'm fairly certain the whole "sharing with advertisers/analytics" part of the privacy policy only applies to the website and other non-game services. So any data Anet may collect from it's anti-cheat tool doesn't leave the company.

    Your privacy is important to ArenaNet. Maintaining the trust of our users is key to the success of our business, and this Privacy Policy is intended to inform you of our information collection and use while visiting our website and playing ArenaNet games. For your information and for the purposes of this Privacy Policy, ArenaNet, LLC is the data controller and your Personal Information (as defined below) may be handled and otherwise processed by NC Interactive, LLC and NCsoft Europe Limited in providing various ArenaNet services to you

    Opening paragraph mate

    That paragraph supports his position, not yours.

    No it literally says in game whereas he said not in game

    It says that the information is being restricted to the company. Everything listed there is the company.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2018

    @Jinks.2057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Jinks.2057 said:
    Address the real issue.

    Sure thing.

    The ESRB is full of themselves and think they are doing an good job when they are stuck in the 90's using the old TV ratings board method of regulation.
    Additionally, the ESRB is a suggestion not law.

    So stores are able to sell to whomever they want.
    That doesn't make Anet liable, infact they're terms indemnify them of Legal actions from illegal usage.

    But you don't really care about the real issue as you've got easily the biggest tinfoil hat i've seen worn in a long time.

    Whats the first thing you see in that video?

    I rest my case.

    No one knows what you are talking about ... it's common knowledge GW2 is rated TEEN and doesn't invalidate anything he said ...

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • artemis.6781artemis.6781 Member ✭✭✭

    Could you imagine all the families that play together suddenly getting banned? I'd hate to be ANet if that ever happened!

This discussion has been closed.
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