How can we get wvw back to the skill based game mode it used to be? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

How can we get wvw back to the skill based game mode it used to be?

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Answers

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @BMW.2951 said:
    I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1 and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

    That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

    ? ?

    Pushing a server up because the scores improved isn't bandwagoning.

    Joining it after or on it's way up is. 2012-2013 is the start of the game..

    Not saying he or KnT bandwagoned, I'm saying BG got bandwagoned that's why they became the "destroyers of competition". Like I said SoS did the same thing, I was on them from their ride from like 11th to tier 1, when PRX from HoD and Tsym from DB jumped ship to strengthen their NA, and if I remember correctly SoS and BG battled a few times in tier 2 before I left the game for like 6 months during which SoS imploded and some guilds went to the other tier 1 servers.

    Got it. I need to take a deep breath before posting lol..

  • I think the way to stir things up, and make people better players is eliminate squads/commanders and TS. People who are forced to join squads with preset cookie cutter builds and perform in predictable ways while listening to barked repetitive predictable orders caused more dumbing down in wvw than anything.

  • BMW.2951BMW.2951 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2018

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @BMW.2951 said:
    I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1 and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

    That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

    Wow I had no idea joining a brand new server back in 2012 when Blackgate was in 9th place is considered "bandwagoning"

    I had no idea.

    wow

    Edit: To put things in perspective....

    KnT made Blackgate an awesome server who actually won battles time after time. Other clans saw that we were climbing the leaderboard and switched over to us and that made us even more strong. Eventually we had awesome coverage and we were unbeatable because of it.

    KnT didn't bandwagon, other clans who saw us doing well bandwagoned.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BMW.2951 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @BMW.2951 said:
    I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1 and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

    That's called bandwagoning... SoS did the same thing at that time.

    Wow I had no idea joining a brand new server back in 2012 when Blackgate was in 9th place is considered "bandwagoning"

    I had no idea.

    wow

    Edit: To put things in perspective....

    KnT made Blackgate an awesome server who actually won battles time after time. Other clans saw that we were climbing the leaderboard and switched over to us and that made us even more strong. Eventually we had awesome coverage and we were unbeatable because of it.

    KnT didn't bandwagon, other clans who saw us doing well bandwagoned.

    I highlighted a section in the quote for a reason.
    Read my second post.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:
    I remember EK and Gismor was it? Was a good group to run with, until they got mixed up with you know who.

    hehe

    LMAO that was ME on the ram on my little Asura Necro.

    lol so wrong but funny same time

  • X T D.6458X T D.6458 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BMW.2951 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @X T D.6458 said:

    @Kaiser.9873 said:

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

    Kinda wondering the same thing. From the very beginning it was he who had the best stab won. Now it's he who pirate ships best wins. No skill difference at all.
    I did prefer when ppl weren't getting one-shot, but none of the metas has been particularly skill based.

    You have probably never been in a 6 hour garri fight :/

    Well since I left BG post-season 1 no I haven't been. Of course if you want to guess about my WvW experience, I have plenty in every tier, started life on CD with Empyrean Knights then followed them through various moves, went to BG, went to SoS, then back to BG, then on to YB where Empyrean Knights dissolved. Various guilds since then of course, and am happily in BANE atm. Those old time BG, SoR, JQ hills fights were pretty amazing.

    I miss the good ole days :( I was in KnT when we destroyed the competition and went from 9th ranked server to number 1 and stayed there back in 2012-2013.

    I was on SoR at the time, and remember always fighting those KnT 40 man blobs...fun times!

    BG

  • starlinvf.1358starlinvf.1358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eater of Peeps.9062 said:
    I think the way to stir things up, and make people better players is eliminate squads/commanders and TS. People who are forced to join squads with preset cookie cutter builds and perform in predictable ways while listening to barked repetitive predictable orders caused more dumbing down in wvw than anything.

    Cookie Cutter builds come about because its the path of least resistance for everyone involved. Zerg composition has 2 major fail safes built into it...... 1. unchecked scaling because of the back asswards way the game apply caps. And 2. they can afford to fill weak points in the composition with entire builds. This is why the current meta is make or break based on the number of Firebrands, as they check all the boxes for required support functions, and don't need to do anything else. This is where the unchecked scaling problem comes in. Incidentally, this is the exact same design problem that currently defines the Raid Meta, as 10 man groups allow for much better role coverage options.

    The issue isn't the fact builds are cookie cutter...... its more to do with the fact that certain functions in this game will carry an entire group, and thus classes with good access to them are in very high demand. It also leads to role condensing, because the more non-damage things you can offload into a single build, the more it frees up others for raw DPS. The problem is, and always has been the fact that DPS trumps everything. So surprise, surprise, everyone tries to maximize DPS for the fastest take down, while only tolerating enough defense to not get killed by minor mistakes.

    If you compare GW1 FvF to GW2 wvw, there is one immediately apparent difference in how the builds are managed. A cookie cutter build has key vulnerabilities, and those are fairly easy to exploit. With GW1, rolling a counter was much more viable, because single target was the normal. In GW2 this doesn't work, because AOE and collateral damage is the normal. Since Roamers can't easily rely on a team composition, they build into 2 schools of thought..... fast take down, and reliable disengage. Since both Thief and Mesmer have easy access to strong disengage skills, they can afford to sink more into burst damage. Guardians and Warriors have very strong sustain and damage potential, but can't disengage; so once a fight starts, they have no choice but to see it through. Which if these do you see most often solo roaming? Theives and Mesmers have no effective counters, because disengage itself has no effective counters. Thats why the quote unquote "cookie cutter builds" can exist...... theres simply no way to tailor a counter build without being vulnerable to everything else.

  • I played necro and Mesmer in gw1 as my mains, tho I played every class. I play necro and Mesmer as my mains in gw2, tho I play all classes.

    The main difference I see is that we were free to create our own unique builds in gw1 from a pretty large combination of traits/skills. In gw2 we are limited and have been limited. The first five skills come preset with the weapon you select, plus a healing skill everyone arguably needs. That leaves 3 skills and an elite from which to craft your "special build"in gw 2. Not much variation. Now compound the problem with the demands of a squad leader and guilds/alliances and the exigencies of fighting in a zerg, and voila = cookie cutter builds that are mandatory. This creates predictability, boredom and zero variation except for individual skill of players. While individual skill does affect zerg play, it is very forgiving because it is easy for people's mistakes or bad positioning or slow response, etc. to get absorbed by the mass casualty damage.

    So, when I play necro or Mesmer in gw2 zerg, I am seeing a difference from my necro/Mesmer play in gw1 alliance battles (closest comparable battles) not based on solo damage vs AOE damage (my necro did comparable AOE damage in gw1 and my domination Mesmer ditto) but based on my limited skills/traits access and the demands of the squad commanders.

    I was on BG since beta. I have always been pug and not part of KNT or any other wvw guild. I did not leech. I did not bandwagon. I contributed. I remember when we fought in tournaments and when we rose in ranks. We did it cuz we were good players who got even better. Period. People can challenge this all they like, but I remember pug battles without commanders or guilds where we beat other servers that were full that were 2 v 1ing us for hours for battles over SM and keeps/towers.

    I suggest we remove all squad/ts/commander functionality from wvw and make it all random large scale pug zerg battles (you can still play with your friends and guild mates then) that are uncontrolled. Every skill level. Every class. Every garbage build with every meta build. Deaths, kills, killstreaks, defensive play, Leroy play, whatever.

    At least then there is a level playing field, (pugs one and all!) fairness to all, challenge to all. You will never be bored. Frustrated maybe. Which might spur you to get better individually and when in zerg. But either way, good or bad, there is variation and unpredictability and skill emerges and leaders/folllowers emerge and play is more exciting and unpredictable and fresh and challenging. Its also easy to accomplish this set up, is not based on an exclusionary system, and is cheaper for anet to run/monitor -- all positive experiences for everyone.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Guess KnT had 500 people in their guild online all day every day ppting to raise BG from 9th to 1st..... people still haven't figured out coverage wins matches after 6 years? If BG didn't have a bandwagon how come they started down at 9th? oh lemme guess most of those BG players were spvping instead until they took wvw seriously to help them rise in ranks.

    Remove squad/ts/commander, is one of the ....... ..... .....
    First of all anet has no control over outside voice programs, so good luck with that.
    Second of all when there is no commanders around people will leave the game mode, because most pugs rely on commanders to tag up and lead them to actively do stuff. There's a reason why map populations drop when a commander tags down or leaves, because wvw doesn't have a lot of self motivation things to do like pve does. The guilds will dominate even more because they already run without tags and can function without squads, most pugs will just leave and do something else less frustrating/boring.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Bloodstealer.5978Bloodstealer.5978 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hyper Cutter.9376 said:
    I'm wondering when this magical time was when WvW required skill instead of fielding the most people over the most time zones.

    Year one when some skill and strategy existed... after that it became karmatrainwars which transmtuted into zergwars for the brain dead... now it's nothing more than scourgewars where it's a battle to paint as much grass in red circles as possible. Until ANET actually promote healthy class balance rather than jumping from one extreme to the other it will never become about skills and tactics ever again... just wait for the super guilds to appear stacked full of them...

    Life is what YOU make it... NOT what others tell you!

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @Legendary Defender.5631 said:
    In the past 4 yrs anet has dumbed down the game so much players no longer have to think about or even know what they are doing in order to win. Metabattle made it even worse. The meta has shifted to a tank, toxic spamming dull quasi pirate ship meta. This has caused the wvw population to dive drastically. So how can we as a wvw community bring back the meta where players had to learn the game and learn the classes in order to be successful in wvw?
    Leave your input below.

    Playing from start, dont remember any better situations. Also i dont have that bad memory to talk about good old days.
    Meta was same kitten as now, just different..... half of zerg staff guards 5 3 1 1 1 1 1 1 2x shouts, challenging. Few eles and necros. Boring as hell.

    Roaming was no different.... few builds excel... other nah..... from what i remember ... d/d ele, warrior almost same as now (evis axe shield gs) , shatter mes i was playing s/d thief (sword dancer) and 3 kit condi engi (later build about perplexity runes)

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • Seffen.2875Seffen.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

    It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

    Which is stacking scourges.

    Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.
    Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

    Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

    PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

    Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

    And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

    And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.
    Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

    But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.
    Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

    WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.

    But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

    Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

  • intox.6347intox.6347 Member ✭✭✭

    @Seffen.2875 said:
    I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

    It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

    Which is stacking scourges.

    Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.
    Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

    Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

    PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

    Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

    And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

    And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.
    Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

    But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.
    Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

    WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.

    But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

    Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

    Even if i try hard, i cant write it better.

    +1

    Multiclass WvW player
    Theorycrafted builds tester

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2018

    Weird, the knt I remember form that time spent it's days running from TW, fear and choo.

    Must be a different knt

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Bloodstealer.5978Bloodstealer.5978 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Seffen.2875 said:
    I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

    It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

    Which is stacking scourges.

    Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.
    Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

    Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

    PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

    Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

    And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

    And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.
    Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

    But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.
    Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

    WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.

    But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

    Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

    Hmm pretty much nailed down the transmute of wvw. though I do disagree in that scourges still are the frontline, the backline and the middle line in wvw.. it used to be the guardian splash runs as you saying firing up stab and charge and then let the dice roll.. now its a 50 scourges playing circles wars all over the ground because they have everything a necro never had.. including mobility, stability, power, toughness, boons, boon strips and insane condi creep.. sure they had a little of some of them before, but now all at once.. so no need for guardians to stab and cleanse ask your friendly scourge platoons to charge up... other than that the only thing that existed differently at the start was tactical awareness, planning for defence/chokes etc.. now we just have zerg charge rinse repeat.. fun for a few charges then it kinda grows old fast.

    Life is what YOU make it... NOT what others tell you!

  • Ardenwolfe.8590Ardenwolfe.8590 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Legendary Defender.5631 said:
    In the past 4 yrs anet has dumbed down the game so much players no longer have to think about or even know what they are doing in order to win. Metabattle made it even worse. The meta has shifted to a tank, toxic spamming dull quasi pirate ship meta. This has caused the wvw population to dive drastically. So how can we as a wvw community bring back the meta where players had to learn the game and learn the classes in order to be successful in wvw?
    Leave your input below.

    Honestly? I don't think you can. The power creep is here and there's no going back. As far as 'dumbing down' the game? Sadly, many complained early on that the game was too difficult to learn. Thus, the reason for the overhaul around the second year or so. Again . . . I don't think we can ever return to how things were.

    In fact . . . I know we can't . . . sorry.

    No longer posting or playing.

  • Seffen.2875Seffen.2875 Member ✭✭✭

    @Bloodstealer.5978 said:

    @Seffen.2875 said:
    I straight up think that most of the People here are wrong. WvW by no means has become less skill based.

    It rather has become so skill based that most People just skip the skill part and do what is easiest.

    Which is stacking scourges.

    Back then, when stability worked in the old way, playing Guardian was just super easy. Spam stab. Ult. Spam stab again. and do some damage with weapons. The rotations were super easy. Stomping noobs was super easy. Good fights were still decided by Necros. Almost everything was Direct Damage so Managing conditions was not even a Thing. Just had to get rid of movement impairing.
    Except for Scourges those "Good old Days" where the easiest for strong guilds. The learning curve back then can be describes as y=x. Straight Forward and super easy.

    Hot came and things changed. The frontline became even stronger. A lot of former backline classes went into the frontline. Focusparty classes were dropped completely because there was no way to target single Targets.

    PoF came and and they came up with Counter classes to the boon meta. Suddenly there was no more just running through the Opponent and see who Drops first. The backline was strong again.

    Funnily enough, throughout the whole history of wvw there was always one big offender. The necro. There has never been a time where People did not complain about necro being to strong. in wvw. And stupidly weak in pve.

    And through all the time, the more skilled part of the fight was always able to facecrush his opponents. And not only by bits but really hard.

    And then scourge. The learning curve of this class is incredibly steep. You are strong from the very first Moment. But you won't get much better over time. Just a Little more effective. On the other Hand, classes like weaver and firebrand have an incredibly slow learning curve. Super effective if you know how to Play them but only few really can. And they are mostly in top gvg guilds who are doing Video analysation.
    Therefore the whole Thing degenerated into pirateship with scourges.

    But nonetheless, for skilled guilds it is still possible to fight and defeat stronger zergs. But all in all it has just become incredibly harder. You have to Play on Point, make no mistake, get the Maximum out of your class.
    Of course are certain Limits to that but there have always been some and they have not really moved.

    WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.

    But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

    Also, there is a lack of Innovation right now.

    Hmm pretty much nailed down the transmute of wvw. though I do disagree in that scourges still are the frontline, the backline and the middle line in wvw.. it used to be the guardian splash runs as you saying firing up stab and charge and then let the dice roll.. now its a 50 scourges playing circles wars all over the ground because they have everything a necro never had.. including mobility, stability, power, toughness, boons, boon strips and insane condi creep.. sure they had a little of some of them before, but now all at once.. so no need for guardians to stab and cleanse ask your friendly scourge platoons to charge up... other than that the only thing that existed differently at the start was tactical awareness, planning for defence/chokes etc.. now we just have zerg charge rinse repeat.. fun for a few charges then it kinda grows old fast.

    Yep. You are completely right here. Where i was aiming is that i think this is only Happening because 1. scourge is so easy and 2. People have become lazy. This is also applying to tactics. You are still superior if you go for defence/chokes etc. But a lot of People just don't care about it.

  • This video was the meta in T1 for years;

    This game has always been non-competitive and promotes bad sportsmanship. Ever since release the best tactic has been staff 1 guardian braindead zergs. The game is not balanced by Arenanet and the players who play this game love it. There is no sportsmanship because the whole game has always been about transfer to the winning server to win. Arenanet encourages this because it makes them money.

    I wish I never even enjoyed or became addicted to this waste of time because all I see now is a shell of a once fun game. The sustain hammer train meta was probably the most fun fights this game ever had. But of course it was nerfed because all the dpsers couldn't 1 shot a zerg. It's really a shame it took years for Arenanet to finally add healers because they actually make fights last longer than a couple seconds. If only they never abandoned Guild Wars 1 to make this disappointment.

    Here's my build feel free to follow a tag around with it forever like braindead sheep;
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNAW5ensAB9ChtCBOCD8DhlECbPgeQboYbgQQZ6aZFAOAA-jVCDABPrEUENEAcRB41830PJAf1N8r6PBr8j+9HEDQRA-w

  • Icy.2186Icy.2186 Member ✭✭

    IMO it is just proper kitten balance.
    When it comes to "what is x good at y" in gw2 currently, there is no such thing as mildly better at x or mildly better at y. If a class is good at something it is super kitten good and nothing else can match it.
    Why would you not bring a class which aoe clears condi, aoe applies condi, aoe removes enemy boons(corrupts)... passively on top of that the amount of just area on scourge is oppressive on its own. If you want to do aoe fights, why would you not bring the best aoe fighter ( with the boon / condi meta considered ). Why would you also not bring a class that just aoe kitten out every single buff in the game or aoe protection / aegis uptimes and so on.

    Youre preparing for a 20v20 fight and what are your options, big aoe, condi / boon conversions, healing /shielding in an aoe oooor some single target damage melee class?
    If youre bringing melees into zerg fights you better have ridiculous communication and team work. Because spamming aoe from a distance is not only easier but safer with less room to fail and on top of that incredibly strong.

    There is no such thing as "squish-y" or "burst-y" or "tank-y", its SQUISH BURST TANK and so on. Tank classes are nearly immortal in certain situations, tons of blocks, aegises, regens, protections, evades, Invulnerabiles that go on and on. If youre a squish class you will get 1shot. Burst classes just straight up 1hit. There are currently so many onehit builds that i cannot even think of all of them at the top of my head.

    Difference between squishy and tanky is not something like 5k hp its 1:30 minutes to be killed by 3 players or 10 seconds. Damage differentials are not 10 seconds to kill versus 20 seconds to kill a target. Its 30 seconds versus a oneshot.

    I believe this is part of the reason why everything feels "stale" and why "every group runs the same thing" is because thats all there is to "strategy" right now.

    There is no reason to have a well practiced core warrior ( not spell breaker ) over your guildies 5 year old son playing scourge for the first time in his life in a zerg v zerg because just passively scourge is most likely doing more work in a big aoe fight.
    If you want to roam and fight solo/1shot people you are probably a thief or a mesmer because those classes are just so much faster than anything else.

    Sure roaming has high versatility, but thats mostly cause nobody gives a kitten about whats best. You want to solo roam as a warrior? Knock yourself out. But to reach peak performance of "roaming" and scouting you would have to play a faster class instead of a class thats kinda locked into every fight it stumbles upon.

    I play thief so i exclusively roam, and in smaller scale fights there is a larger variety but its mostly because nobody plans for them. Its usually me joining into a fight, someone else joining into a fight for the hell of it and not guild v guild fights, commanders, voice comms and so on. But even in a "smaller" scale fight of about 6 - 7 players, when i see scourge/fb walking up its either an insta win or an insta loss situation. Because they are simply that much better at group fights. With other classes you have more of a toss up when it comes to fighting / kiting / engaging and disengaging but at the end of the day thats mostly decided on who got instakilled first and who has necros/guards to res super safely.
    A lot of things in gw2, in my opinion, are slowly more and more boiling down to "if you wanna do a y role youre x class and x class only." Simply because, as silly as it sounds, every class is op. Almost every class is incomparably above alot of others in certain aspects ( some more than others ) and a lot of situations are going to be decided by which side had more builds tuned for that role rather than who played better. Because just classes alone create super uphill battles.
    Its very gimmicky and very brainless and quite frankly not all that fun to participate in at times.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    It's 2018 and NA players still believe that their skill level is propelling their server to god tiers :o
    Never mind the fact that some servers field 2-3 groups vs 1. Ain't no anet balance patch gonna give us a build to handle the nuthug meta.

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Wood League News Network [WLNN]- www.twitch.tv/shirirx

  • Cogbyrn.7283Cogbyrn.7283 Member ✭✭

    If hammer trains felt skill-based, it's probably because they developed as the first blobbed fist strategy while people were still figuring out the game. Back when stability didn't have stacks, no amount of CC could stop the hammer from coming down on you. What skill was involved, exactly, beyond the same sort of "coordinating a semi-large group of humans towards a singular goal" skill that people refuse to see today?

    I came back to the game after multiple years away, and at a meta level, everything looks and feels exactly the same as it did before. Same sort of roaming, same roaming meta build concepts, same zerg movement, same mass defense of the home borderlands to protect keeps based on scout callouts, same tapping of certain keeps to prevent waypoint usage.

    Also, I never understood why people made a meme out of playing for ppt. It's like playing chess and mocking your opponent for trying to checkmate your king, or hopping into sPvP and mocking the other players for trying to cap objectives, or jumping into a PvE raid and mocking your teammates for trying to kill bosses. Points are the objective.

    I understand people just want a playground to run around and fight, and actually layering a larger strategy on top of the system is well beyond what people want to consider when playing WvW. I just always saw the meme as akin to calling the person who just bested you "bad".

    The instant gratification of discovering and exploring a new game is always going to feel better in the short term than the long-term, deeper enjoyment of a singular game. Is it more exciting to go on one of the first dates with a new person, or to waking up next to the person you've lived with for 2+ years already? Does that mean it's better to just constantly date new people your entire life, always chasing the thrill? The gaming industry caters to that sense of excitement, and now the market is absolutely flooded with all kinds of every type of game. No MMO is really going to be able to compete long-term unless it cultivates a greater sense of community, so people log in to spend time with people and use the game as a medium for hanging out.

    ANet isn't going to keep things feeling fresh in PvP, most likely. Any massive balance changes, new elites, etc. are just blips on the graph, then the longer a game is out, the faster things settle as meta builds are developed and the community gets a feel for the changes. That isn't really the game's fault.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:
    Also, I never understood why people made a meme out of playing for ppt. It's like playing chess and mocking your opponent for trying to checkmate your king, or hopping into sPvP and mocking the other players for trying to cap objectives, or jumping into a PvE raid and mocking your teammates for trying to kill bosses. Points are the objective.

    It's more like playing pick-up soccer (or football for non-Americans) and having one team playing extremely defensive and sitting on a 1-goal lead. Like, sure. That will win you the game.. but we're just playing for fun here. It's not a tournament. There's no prize for first place. Let's just kick the ball around and play a fun game.. yeah?

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    I would also back up the "break up & PvE" + "supply" arguments mostly found on page #1 of this thread:

    "break up" into more smaller tasks thoughts and ideas...

    • You might call the old Alpine Krait/Quaggan scenario "too PvE", but it was another mechanic to get a small group of players involved. The quaggan party would go out and "tag" a structure. It would not be possible to switch that chain of events on again, because of the changed map.
    • DBL tower event; that was a game engine nightmare, but the idea of controlling a point, which would launch an attack on enemy keeps was not too bad, because it offered an alternative to a normal siege attack and was not easy to counter by sitting inside a fortification. You had to chose an open field battle, which many of the more hard core WvW players (also mentioned in this thread) want.
    • The Skritt / Centaur areas in the Alpine BL are wasted potential; A map event for attackers and defenders would force players to be out on the map and not sit inside structures or follow a giant zerg. I would like to link those to the "supply management" improvements (see below)

    On "supply"

    • I miss the upgrade choices of the old supply driven upgrades so much, compared to auto upgrades. I don't miss the gold sink though.
    • Supply currently is way too easy to get, use and manage with a big zerg. There should be repercussions for "feeding an army". I would like to see more traps that use supply (e.g. "poisoning dollies", which would reduce the supply carried and limit the depot space for receiving structures) and a trial week when building things on an enemy BLs costs twice as much (not EB, that should stay a very volatile and fast paced map). Fighting on borderlands would be far more strategic than tactical.

    PS: Individual player skill needs to matter more again too, because seeing 90% Scourges in WvW at the moment is an illustration of an out of balance profession situation that is beyond L2P issues.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gorani.7205 said:
    PS: Individual player skill needs to matter more again too, because seeing 90% Scourges in WvW at the moment is an illustration of an out of balance profession situation that is beyond L2P issues.

    100% agreed. Part of it, I think is safety in numbers and the reward structure. If you fight a heroic 1v3 at great personal risk and win, you get .. 3 bags. If your zerg fights a completely safe 60vs30, you get .. 30 bags.

    If you're the average player, which would you choose? I mean, I try to play for the former rather than the latter 'cause I'm bored and don't care much for the rewards, but most players don't share that mentality.

  • Cogbyrn.7283Cogbyrn.7283 Member ✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:
    Also, I never understood why people made a meme out of playing for ppt. It's like playing chess and mocking your opponent for trying to checkmate your king, or hopping into sPvP and mocking the other players for trying to cap objectives, or jumping into a PvE raid and mocking your teammates for trying to kill bosses. Points are the objective.

    It's more like playing pick-up soccer (or football for non-Americans) and having one team playing extremely defensive and sitting on a 1-goal lead. Like, sure. That will win you the game.. but we're just playing for fun here. It's not a tournament. There's no prize for first place. Let's just kick the ball around and play a fun game.. yeah?

    This is actually an age-old argument I've seen spanning all manner of games, and the general conclusion I've come up with is that every single person will have a slightly different interpretation of what "playing for fun" really means. That team in your example that started playing defensively on a 1-goal lead probably has fun playing to win. The benefit of having fun while playing to win is that the rules and objectives are clearly defined, while simply "playing for fun" is an enormous spectrum of expectations and goals that you can't begin to predict about someone.

    One of the biggest problems of any open world PvP game is that to thrive, you pretty much need all types of players, but that necessarily means that you'll create scenarios where basically everyone is unhappy with how things turned out at one point or another. Which, should be fine, but the part of "instant gratification" that no one focuses on, "gratification", seems to suggest all players should find pleasure in their gaming experience. When they don't, they go looking for something else that will be more gratifying, so open world communities start to die.

    I think the general anti-tryhard sentiment is a defense against the sting of losing which might otherwise get a person to leave the game, but I don't think it's beneficial for anyone at all long-term.

    All that being said, it's OK to recognize that someone else is playing a different game than you and to accept that running into them will be a less fun experience for you than you're looking for. I just don't think the general derisive tone behind it, on both sides of the fence, is useful.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2018

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:
    This is actually an age-old argument I've seen spanning all manner of games, and the general conclusion I've come up with is that every single person will have a slightly different interpretation of what "playing for fun" really means. That team in your example that started playing defensively on a 1-goal lead probably has fun playing to win. The benefit of having fun while playing to win is that the rules and objectives are clearly defined, while simply "playing for fun" is an enormous spectrum of expectations and goals that you can't begin to predict about someone.

    That's certainly true, but other players don't enjoy playing against that team. They just take their ball and go home .. which is what we see in WvW. Servers just disappear for the week. They tank out of T1.

    I think the general anti-tryhard sentiment is a defense against the sting of losing which might otherwise get a person to leave the game, but I don't think it's beneficial for anyone at all long-term.

    Disagree. I can only speak for my server, but people are legitimately unhappy when we are winning. As mentioned, people intentionally try to lose to avoid playing against some of these "winning"-focused servers. It's not because it's too difficult. It's because it's not fun. People (on my server at least) don't want to spend hours sieging and countersieging or playing the supply game all night to take one keep. They just want a big chaotic open-field fight.

    I think the best solution will be for ANET to hurry up and finish the guild alliance system. IMO, we need to shuffle these servers so there's more of a mix of all player types on each team at any given time.

  • aspirine.6852aspirine.6852 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2018

    Step one would be nerf necros. That would be the very first thing. This is just getting insane. We are up against vabbi, I swear they run just necro :P

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:
    This is actually an age-old argument I've seen spanning all manner of games, and the general conclusion I've come up with is that every single person will have a slightly different interpretation of what "playing for fun" really means. That team in your example that started playing defensively on a 1-goal lead probably has fun playing to win. The benefit of having fun while playing to win is that the rules and objectives are clearly defined, while simply "playing for fun" is an enormous spectrum of expectations and goals that you can't begin to predict about someone.

    I think the best solution will be for ANET to hurry up and finish the guild alliance system. IMO, we need to shuffle these servers so there's more of a mix of all player types on each team at any given time.

    It may be.

    However, what happens when those fight focused people form alliances with like minded people?

    And there are 4-5 alliances with these people..

    And they are spread across 3-4 tiers...

    And stuck with progressively different PPT focused people and alliances...

    Forming on one or two alliances would be worse.

    Likely it's going to make a few more
    People unhappy.

    Personally, I am good with either style with our Havoc, so, I can see benefits to facing different groups.

    I think the PPT (and anti PPK) along with the PPK (and anti PPT) crowds have the largest potential for disappointment.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 1, 2018

    Start playing gw1 and drop the lamers/casuals mmo :) is one of the ways to fix it
    AB is WvW w/o walls on shrines/cap places.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    my opinion from a guy who didnt do any blob fights since they released HoT till now..

    the problem is obviously boon corrupt i mean look at this.
    Boons are converted as follows:

    Boon Condition
    Aegis Burning (1 stack, 3 s)
    Alacrity Chilled (3 s)
    Fury Blinded (5 s)
    Might Weakness (5 s)
    Protection Vulnerability (3 stacks, 8 s)
    Quickness Slow (3 s)
    Regeneration Poison (6s)
    Resistance Immobile (2 s)
    Retaliation Confusion (3 stacks, 5 s)
    Stability Fear (1 s)
    Swiftness Crippled (10 s)
    Vigor Bleeding (2 stacks, 8 s)

    so, yesterday and today i decide to join blob again.
    Basically blob fighting used to be stab up and off you go right? but since we playing condition wars and warriors are back and resistance in generally flys around cus of that durability rune.

    anyway so we start the fight i touched 1 shade or w/e i touched im immobilized.. nice im dead.
    2nd fight i kitten dunno why i even got immobilized first time same kitten happend i got caught i got insta run over by train of scourges..

    so i ask why kitten i get immoblize all the time then i got told (never knew never really care as roamer) that resistance is turned into immobile, but my setup doesnt give me resistance yet i kinda got it perma flying around cus of people using durability rune or warriors popping it i dunno.

    anyway the point is RESISTANCE KILLS YOU.
    so dont use resistance..

    same with swiftness it kills u when u need to re position you self cus your enemy is clearly stronger but u could use something to your advantage but takes little run half your blob gonna get caught cus swiftness is a thing that every1 wants and has more or less. so your backline slowly gonna get absorbed..

    then we have stab which i realised today when i got like chain feared in million times..

    so in reality Anet doesnt want us to be immune to conditions cus it will "immobile your kitten"
    neither they want us to stab up and be like bosses cus they will just fear u leaving u no control over char and prolly die also.
    neither they want us to re position our kitten which always goes slowly if needed to be done fast in order to win bigger blob or stronger one then u cus swiftness gives u cripple thus making u being sucked up in blob..

    i never followed the meta either, but hey who cares i made a scourge and gotta say this class is so beyond stupid in WvW pre hot i thought wells where already good at tagging stuff beside the "lootstick guard" i thought necro was amazing at tagging.
    well now with shades and marks and wells and w/e u choose for skills your self its amazing.u just randomly throw kitten around and u tag like a idiot while pumping out massive amount of conditions.

    could go on for ever about this class or even other classes but this scourge is main problem in WvW

  • Cogbyrn.7283Cogbyrn.7283 Member ✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    That's certainly true, but other players don't enjoy playing against that team. They just take their ball and go home .. which is what we see in WvW. Servers just disappear for the week. They tank out of T1.

    That's usually why sports tend to separate into leagues, and it sort of felt like the tiers resembled that somewhat back in the day. People just didn't like playing the same groups over and over again, which I also never understood. I loved running into consistent enemies and building rivalries, it made it more interesting and personal for me instead of encountering Anonymous Roamer #17385.

    @coro.3176 said:

    I think the general anti-tryhard sentiment is a defense against the sting of losing which might otherwise get a person to leave the game, but I don't think it's beneficial for anyone at all long-term.

    Disagree. I can only speak for my server, but people are legitimately unhappy when we are winning. As mentioned, people intentionally try to lose to avoid playing against some of these "winning"-focused servers. It's not because it's too difficult. It's because it's not fun. People (on my server at least) don't want to spend hours sieging and countersieging or playing the supply game all night to take one keep. They just want a big chaotic open-field fight.

    I think the best solution will be for ANET to hurry up and finish the guild alliance system. IMO, we need to shuffle these servers so there's more of a mix of all player types on each team at any given time.

    I see your point, and I worded my thought more carelessly than I should have. I was trying to get back to work quickly so I just let it flow right out of my brain. In some cases I still think that people poke fun at someone who is "trying hard" because they feel compelled to defend their own ego, and in general it isn't an uncommon phenomenon for people to think "trying" at anything is uncool.

    As far as not wanting to siege or countersiege for hours, I simultaneously understand and wonder what your ideal night of WvW would look like. Would you just roam between objectives, run into some other big zerg, and duke it out for a few hours before breaking up and logging off? You aren't forced into making bids on keeps/SMC, and you shouldn't have to siege/countersiege a tower for hours. I would expect that hitting things like towers/camps in quick succession would draw an enemy force out, at which point you can intercept them while they are en route to a siege. Do the "winning"-focused servers just bring groups that are too large to steal objectives back, so you never end up fighting a force at the size you want?

    At the end of the day, I think this helps highlight how many different things people want out of an open field experience, and they are (I think, anyway) largely mutually exclusive. You want a big chaotic open-field fight, but due to the nature of WvW, you either need to specifically organize it with an opposing server, or try to manufacture it. The former is something I've seen done starting years and years ago, and the latter is a necessary evil since objectives are specifically designed to focus players into areas for conflict. Simply running around the world at random probably isn't going to net you a big chaotic open-field fight.

    Another thing that I think is important to keep in mind is that downtime between periods of excitement heightens the excitement. Tension built while you don't get exactly what you want heightens the experience when you finally get it. It's a very delicate balance between finding enough fights and not finding enough fights, and I have no idea how they could possibly solve that problem. I'm skeptical that a "guild alliance" system is going to do it.

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    That's certainly true, but other players don't enjoy playing against that team. They just take their ball and go home .. which is what we see in WvW. Servers just disappear for the week. They tank out of T1.

    That's usually why sports tend to separate into leagues, and it sort of felt like the tiers resembled that somewhat back in the day. People just didn't like playing the same groups over and over again, which I also never understood. I loved running into consistent enemies and building rivalries, it made it more interesting and personal for me instead of encountering Anonymous Roamer #17385.

    @coro.3176 said:

    I think the general anti-tryhard sentiment is a defense against the sting of losing which might otherwise get a person to leave the game, but I don't think it's beneficial for anyone at all long-term.

    Disagree. I can only speak for my server, but people are legitimately unhappy when we are winning. As mentioned, people intentionally try to lose to avoid playing against some of these "winning"-focused servers. It's not because it's too difficult. It's because it's not fun. People (on my server at least) don't want to spend hours sieging and countersieging or playing the supply game all night to take one keep. They just want a big chaotic open-field fight.

    I think the best solution will be for ANET to hurry up and finish the guild alliance system. IMO, we need to shuffle these servers so there's more of a mix of all player types on each team at any given time.

    As far as not wanting to siege or countersiege for hours, I simultaneously understand and wonder what your ideal night of WvW would look like. Would you just roam between objectives, run into some other big zerg, and duke it out for a few hours before breaking up and logging off? You aren't forced into making bids on keeps/SMC, and you shouldn't have to siege/countersiege a tower for hours. I would expect that hitting things like towers/camps in quick succession would draw an enemy force out, at which point you can intercept them while they are en route to a siege. Do the "winning"-focused servers just bring groups that are too large to steal objectives back, so you never end up fighting a force at the size you want?

    The typical situation goes like this:

    • log in, NA prime. Join home borderland for some WvW. Enemy has nightcapped all of our keeps and T3'd them. Sigh.
    • have a small group of 10-15 players. go looking for someone to fight. find them. similar size group but they all sitting in the T3 east keep on siege firing cannons and arrow carts at us. boring..
    • okay, so they won't come out to fight. let's break in and make them fight. attempt to find a spot to attack, but there are 5 superior arrow carts at every siege point. sigh...
    • go set up trebs far back from the keep. immediately get counter-trebbed. build shield generators and cycle bubbles. enemy builds their own shield generators and cycle bubbles in front of the wall. trebs are getting in for like ~1% a minute. enemy is building more shield gens and repairing the wall.
    • small group of 10-15 is extremely bored at this point. call for help from other borderlands. no one will come because they don't want to deal with the above situation. EBG is queued over 100. The other borderlands are outmanned.
    • maybe we eventually get in, storm the walls, clear defensive siege. set up for an attack on the inner walls. enemy pulls emergency waypoint, runs over our 15 with their 60. repairs walls to full, rebuilds defensive siege..
    • alt-F4 and go play overwatch/fortnite/whatever

    In my ideal WvW:

    • objectives do not get fortified walls/gates/etc
    • defensive siege does much less damage, especially to players (eg. arrow carts)
    • any successful defense or offense should primarily involve players fighting players rather than playing the siege game
  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd argue it's the dead opposite from the way it was from the first 2-4 years. There is literally 0 skill in mighting up, getting unlimited stability, leaping in, and pressing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1. All the while alienating several classes. This was terrible terrible unskilled game play. At least now players are forced to think about what they're doing, when they're doing it, and their actual group comp. This seems to peeve a lot of people hence the salty complaining about overpowered classes.

    Can't leap in anymore pressing 1, you'll be lit up with conditions. Can't give yourself a hoard of boons, they'll all turn to conditions. Can't simply run necros unhinged as Rangers will rip them apart. Then stability (thankfully) has now been given stacks instead of sitting on players with 100% up time.

    The only argument against unskilled play now is the spellbreaker. A class that can seemingly just run in and run out completely immune to everything thrown at them. This class simply shouldn't exist.

  • getalifeturd.8139getalifeturd.8139 Member ✭✭✭

    There is no melee because the high risk high reward philosophy doesn't exist anymore. Only braindead passive ranged gameplay where you drop circles or dodge circles. Every expansion will be the same with more circles to avoid. We should just program robots to play the game perfectly for us because at this point we're playing against the game mechanics not each other.

    Full dire/trailblazer armor vs full nomads/minstrel. There's your backline and frontline but in reality they're the same. You can't push into scourges and warrior bubbles without feeling suicidal and the gameplay suffers for it. There is no fun anymore just watch your health get filled up with conditions and remove them or die.

    There is a big difference between as people call unskilled play and what is actually fun. Old Hammer Trains were fun and so was the game but every expansion increases the power creep. I mean Arenanet actually had to add healers to a game with a manifesto that said they wouldn't. Why would they do that except because the game's DPS was reaching 1-shot levels and fights were not happening only ganking.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again when everybody else has quit this game all that's left will be the trolls and gankers. What happens when the next expansion comes out and Arenanet adds more power creep to the game? Players only complain if they can't kill somebody. Nobody cares if they 1-hit others because people are biased and subjective. True objective balance is impossible because the human race is competitive and vengeful.

  • Cogbyrn.7283Cogbyrn.7283 Member ✭✭

    @coro.3176 said:

    @Cogbyrn.7283 said:

    @coro.3176 said:

    That's certainly true, but other players don't enjoy playing against that team. They just take their ball and go home .. which is what we see in WvW. Servers just disappear for the week. They tank out of T1.

    That's usually why sports tend to separate into leagues, and it sort of felt like the tiers resembled that somewhat back in the day. People just didn't like playing the same groups over and over again, which I also never understood. I loved running into consistent enemies and building rivalries, it made it more interesting and personal for me instead of encountering Anonymous Roamer #17385.

    @coro.3176 said:

    I think the general anti-tryhard sentiment is a defense against the sting of losing which might otherwise get a person to leave the game, but I don't think it's beneficial for anyone at all long-term.

    Disagree. I can only speak for my server, but people are legitimately unhappy when we are winning. As mentioned, people intentionally try to lose to avoid playing against some of these "winning"-focused servers. It's not because it's too difficult. It's because it's not fun. People (on my server at least) don't want to spend hours sieging and countersieging or playing the supply game all night to take one keep. They just want a big chaotic open-field fight.

    I think the best solution will be for ANET to hurry up and finish the guild alliance system. IMO, we need to shuffle these servers so there's more of a mix of all player types on each team at any given time.

    As far as not wanting to siege or countersiege for hours, I simultaneously understand and wonder what your ideal night of WvW would look like. Would you just roam between objectives, run into some other big zerg, and duke it out for a few hours before breaking up and logging off? You aren't forced into making bids on keeps/SMC, and you shouldn't have to siege/countersiege a tower for hours. I would expect that hitting things like towers/camps in quick succession would draw an enemy force out, at which point you can intercept them while they are en route to a siege. Do the "winning"-focused servers just bring groups that are too large to steal objectives back, so you never end up fighting a force at the size you want?

    The typical situation goes like this:

    • log in, NA prime. Join home borderland for some WvW. Enemy has nightcapped all of our keeps and T3'd them. Sigh.
    • have a small group of 10-15 players. go looking for someone to fight. find them. similar size group but they all sitting in the T3 east keep on siege firing cannons and arrow carts at us. boring..
    • okay, so they won't come out to fight. let's break in and make them fight. attempt to find a spot to attack, but there are 5 superior arrow carts at every siege point. sigh...
    • go set up trebs far back from the keep. immediately get counter-trebbed. build shield generators and cycle bubbles. enemy builds their own shield generators and cycle bubbles in front of the wall. trebs are getting in for like ~1% a minute. enemy is building more shield gens and repairing the wall.
    • small group of 10-15 is extremely bored at this point. call for help from other borderlands. no one will come because they don't want to deal with the above situation. EBG is queued over 100. The other borderlands are outmanned.
    • maybe we eventually get in, storm the walls, clear defensive siege. set up for an attack on the inner walls. enemy pulls emergency waypoint, runs over our 15 with their 60. repairs walls to full, rebuilds defensive siege..
    • alt-F4 and go play overwatch/fortnite/whatever

    In my ideal WvW:

    • objectives do not get fortified walls/gates/etc
    • defensive siege does much less damage, especially to players (eg. arrow carts)
    • any successful defense or offense should primarily involve players fighting players rather than playing the siege game

    Why would you keep slamming your faces into a keep wall that is heavily fortified and adequately defended when you know that you have another layer to try to punch through, and that they can just pull the emergency waypoint? Why not take a group of 10-15 and harass towers/camps instead on enemy BLs right up near their home waypoint? I'd be much more surprised if every tower had people manning siege by default at all times, there's only one way into them, and it's less of a high value defensive target for a 60-man zerg to suddenly flood into.

    If you really want open field fights, attacking a keep since like the worst decision you could make. I understand that no matter what you do, sometimes it's difficult to catch anyone on open ground, and they've really made it a lot easier for zergs to respond to threats on various maps. As a 10-15 man group looking for open field fights, though, you have to go in understanding that sometimes you aren't going to find them. Two forces don't usually clash organically unless both are reasonably confident they might stand a chance.

    With any luck, a new system will divide up the siegers, GvGers, etc., along with the various timezone populations, in order to provide a more balanced experience. Even then, though, it's worth making the effort to poke the bees nest itself instead of getting sucked into a long siege that results in a few seconds of chasing disorganized stragglers on walls once you break in.

  • jalmari.3906jalmari.3906 Member ✭✭

    There has never been any balance in wvw to begin with. And from what I gather it was never meant to be balanced. Just a way casual pver can go try some "pvp" with his/her shiny gear.

    Very little has changed during the time. It was a shame that orbs were removed at least then you could gather up a group with some semi-meaningful objective.

    WvW match results are made just by having most active players and night runners. It has nothing to do with skill. Maybe a little social "engineering".

    Just accept it and just go have fun roaming or zerg around for bags. Or then go spvp, at least you get something for your efforts and you have something to do with results.

    It would be nice to have working GvG mode but there isn't really.

  • ArmageddonAsh.6430ArmageddonAsh.6430 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Hollywood.3490 said:
    It's either cheese or get cheesed.

    Zerging: Do not even care about classes other than Firebrands and Scourges. Get stability and heals, lay down red carpet. Rinse and repeat.

    Roaming: Instagib someone, proceed to the next target. If missed, then disengage until CDs are back. Rinse and repeat.

    I would debate just how skill based WvW ever was, the balance has NEVER been good enough for it to ever be considered skill based. Everyone one runs around with broken, boring cheese builds. Always have. There may have been times when it wasn't so bad but its NEVER truly been skill based. Class and build have ALWAYS been more important.

    It's pretty much this. The longer the game has gone on. The worse the balance has become and the worse the player base has become because they have been to used to unbalanced cheese builds that do all the work. The game would die if it actually became skill based because most of the player base wouldn't be able to do anything. This is VERY heavily on Anets hands for their woeful attempts at balance but also partly on the player base for demanding that people run meta, there isnt really a choice. You play the META even if you find it boring or you are cast aside.

  • Orpheal.8263Orpheal.8263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dagger.2035 said:
    Two words...time travel. I would go back to a few days prior to the June 23rd 2015 release.

    so much thns, thats the point I keep on saying too, where all this disaster took their beginning ...


    Cassandra Lancaster - Achievement Hunter - 28,9k AP currently - Server: Drakkar Lake/EU - Mastery Rank of 254
    I'm the proud Origin of the Elite Specializations Concept (Sub Classes) through the last made CDI Project.


  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    WvW was best when hammer trains still existed. Pirate ship meta is dull

  • Garrus.7403Garrus.7403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Seffen.2875 said:

    WvW has not become less skill intensive. Rather the opposite. It has become more skill intensive.

    But in the same mean, People are not keeping up. They either degenerate into scourges or they blame all their failures on scourges. The average pug is extremely uneducated. Does not understand his class. Does not understand fighting. Only understands that scourge is the root of all evil. (scourge is strong and is and has been a powercreep. But it is really not as bad anymore since he was nerfed a lot.)

    I can agree with that. Scourge is ez to play. I play it alot but also my fb. Yesterday I played with my scourge and I was just wondering if ppl are afk and braindead. One fight I was 4k dmg behind a rev. He was first in overall dmg. I had 64 corrupts in this fights and I think 170k dmg. The next scourge did not even have above 100k dmg. And there were scourge who did not even had 15 corrupts. You are when you say ppl dont understand there class.

  • DeceiverX.8361DeceiverX.8361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:
    I'd argue it's the dead opposite from the way it was from the first 2-4 years. There is literally 0 skill in mighting up, getting unlimited stability, leaping in, and pressing 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1. All the while alienating several classes. This was terrible terrible unskilled game play. At least now players are forced to think about what they're doing, when they're doing it, and their actual group comp. This seems to peeve a lot of people hence the salty complaining about overpowered classes.

    Can't leap in anymore pressing 1, you'll be lit up with conditions. Can't give yourself a hoard of boons, they'll all turn to conditions. Can't simply run necros unhinged as Rangers will rip them apart. Then stability (thankfully) has now been given stacks instead of sitting on players with 100% up time.

    The only argument against unskilled play now is the spellbreaker. A class that can seemingly just run in and run out completely immune to everything thrown at them. This class simply shouldn't exist.

    Thing is that the mechanical skill of zerging during hammertrain wasn't the important part. It was the coordination and positioning that mattered. It was the efficacy of periphery groups. It was one big symphony of many small parts which demanded an understanding of what to do and when. And to be honest, I don't think the mechanical skill demands have increased. 11111 spam on guardian was because it was their best way to cleave in most situations. Guardians were a support and tank frontline role. Hammertrain got its name from Warriors using hammer to CC-lock and blast fields for sustain and damage.

    Further, the small-scale scene at this prior point was all the rejects, but nearly every build in the game on them could be played and made to work in a competitive sense. This was what called for mechanical skill.

    Today, the top-tier builds are just objectively better. They have higher stats and higher damage and better sustain and durability. They do not need context to gain an advantage. Cooldowns are so short that counting the seconds and timing skills is pointless. Everyone just rolls their face across the keyboard and hopes for a win.

    Scourge, Mirage, Spellbreaker and A/S Warrior, FB, Daredevil, SA Deadeye, Pewpew double Signet of Stone Soulbeast and boonbunker Druid, Holosmith, trapper DH, FA Plasma Beam/Earth Weaver... none of these builds really require any degree of substantial thought when playing and are relatively easy and safe to play for their capabilities.

    So much of the game's risk is gone. The ability to punish an engage or bad positioning is gone. A lot of builds are just all reward. So in the situations of small-scale where mechanics really matter, most fights playing off-meta are always at uphill battles and offer nothing better than what the stronger dominant builds are capable of otherwise doing.

    You sure that Sniper idea is as good as you thought it was gonna be?
    Because I think my original idea is better.

  • @aspirine.6852 said:
    Step one would be nerf necros. That would be the very first thing. This is just getting insane. We are up against vabbi, I swear they run just necro :P

    Not necros in general, scourge just needs to be deleted

  • Wvw is should be renamed to scourge wars mode

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    A fourth faction of NPCs, like Aetherblades, that will attack any point and take over it if no players attack it for too long, and no players were defending it. They would teleport in through an ether portal, pop siege, break the walls and take over it, turning the location to the 'gray' faction.

    That's an interesting idea. I'm not sure how easy that would be to implement or whether it would eventually turn into something that got farmed or became so trivial that it is more like a mosquito flying in your ear rather than an actual threat.

    On variation is to allow a fourth, unallied team to enter the map, limited to maybe 10 or 20 people who must be in the same squad. With a limited number of respawns available. Make the reward juicy enough and lots of people would leave a queued map to see if they can survive long enough to neutralize objectives of the Red, Green, and Blue teams.

    We kinda used to have that, before they took away Commander Siegerazer to help you break at least the closest tower to spawn when you had no coverage at all. They should bring that back, and maybe have him roam past that first tower a bit.

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Start playing gw1 and drop the lamers/casuals mmo :) is one of the ways to fix it
    AB is WvW w/o walls on shrines/cap places.

    I miss AB, and is what I expected WvW to be more like when I started. Now there's barely enough there to play it it seems like, least when I get on.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • give back the ability to make plays to melee. that would be a nice start.

    Xterra/Marqeese[Ark]

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